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CNN Live Saturday
Roy Beck and Terry O'Sullivan Discuss Immigration Reform
Aired September 08, 2001 - 17:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
STEPHEN FRAZIER, CNN ANCHOR: The United States and Mexico also have to make some tough decisions about immigration soon. Right now there are 3 million Mexican immigrants living in the United States illegally and Congress has the difficult task of deciding whether they should be given any kind of amnesty.
To discuss the pros and cons of immigration reform, we have two guests. Roy Beck is the executive director of numbersusa.com. That is a Web site that tracks immigration trends. He is in Washington, Also joining us is Terry O'Sullivan who is president of the Laborers International Union of North America, the largest immigrant labor union in North America. He is joining us from Los Vegas. Gentlemen, welcome to you both.
Mr. Beck, I'd like to start with you, if that is OK, and ask you about the call made by the president of Mexico this for some kind of an agreement by year's end, as you heard him say, to permit millions of Mexicans to work legally now in the United States. What do you think of that call?
ROY BECK, EXEC. DIR., NUMBERSUSA.COM: Well, it is a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) call, but it's a call that Americans must reject and reject totally.
Adding not only these 3 million or 4 million illegal aliens to our current population, plus all the chain migration that would cause, would really be detrimental to two major U.S. dreams. Americans dream of a nation in which they aren't constantly having their quality of life deteriorated by extra sprawls, traffic congestion, overcrowded schools, and secondly, there's the American dream that people who are in the lower skilled occupations can earn a decent wage and support their families in dignity.
FRAZIER: Let's ask Mr. O'Sullivan about that. You support not only legalization of Mexicans but all immigrants. What is behind that thinking?
TERRY O'SULLIVAN, PRES., LIUNA: We certainly do, Steve. We were encouraged by the Fox visit and encouraged by his inclusion that immigration reform would be far reaching and would include more than a guest worker program.
We believe that any immigration reform should include a legalization component for all undocumented immigrants, those from not just Mexico but Central America, Asia, and Eastern Europe and all other countries. And that those individuals should be rewarded, that have been in this country for a period of time, have been working, paying taxes and have been law-abiding individuals, that they should have their status changed in a far-reaching effective reform policy.
FRAZIER: Law-abiding in every sense except for their arrival, the manner of their arrival. Some Republican lawmakers would say, rather than rewarding the hard work and all the other points you just mentioned, that it is rewarding illegal, criminal behavior.
O'SULLIVAN: Rewarding individuals that come from countries where there is political or religious persecution. I mean, I look at it this way: We are a nation of immigrants, other than Native Americans, we all came from somewhere else. And individuals that are fleeing those countries for those reasons that have demonstrated that they can be productive individuals in our society, have helped build our country, build our economy should be rewarded with far-reaching and effective immigration reform.
FRAZIER: Let me turn to you Mr. Beck, for an explanation of that term "Guest worker" as Mr. O'Sullivan just used. That is a term often heard now.
BECK: We're a nation of laws. We have always been a nation of the rule of law. Immigration laws are very serious. The Supreme Court has always said the point of immigration laws is to protect the American workers.
The American union movement protected American workers until the last two years, in which they have decided to become a union for illegal aliens, not the American worker. All economists who have looked at the American history have seen that when we have surges, spikes of immigration, we have had depressed wages, especially at the lower reaches.
This is not a time to reward illegal behavior, it is not -- and particularly, it is not a time to reward the companies that have enticed these people to come in. Let's remember that the people who are really being talked about right now are the Mexican illegal aliens. And these are supposedly are not fleeing political persecution. This is the country that we just had their president speaking to a joint session of Congress.
The rule of law is very important and we know one thing, we had one massive amnesty in 1986 and what happened was we amnestied in over 3 million illegal aliens. Now we have 11 million in this country. Amnesties create far more illegal immigration and therefore, more depressed wages for American workers.
FRAZIER: What about this rule of law which does not seem to have stemmed this flow of illegal immigrants, so why keep these particular laws if they are not effective?
BECK: Why keep speed limits for example? Speed limits are violated all the time, but we have them in order to slow the violation of speed limits. We know that we will always have illegal immigration. And we know that we will not be able it deport all the illegal aliens. However, there is a deterrent factor.
Since about 1990, three successive presidents, including this new one, have chosen to have a Justice Department that will not enforce the laws. We have laws against companies hiring illegal aliens. The first Bush Administration, the Clinton Administration and now the second Bush Administration refuse to enforce those laws. If they would begin to enforce those laws, we would see a major slowing of people crossing the boarder.
And by the way, a lot has been made of the people who died crossing the border. The blood of those people who have died is really on the hands of those American policy makers who refuse enforce the law and therefore encourage people to risk their lives. Because they know if they can cross the boarder, they can stay here forever.
FRAZIER: Let me ask Mr. O'Sullivan to explain that guest worker program. You call for legalization for -- documentation legalization first, then a guest worker program. I'm going to need to you fill us in on what that is.
O'SULLIVAN: Sure. I first would like to respond to Mr. Beck's comment about organized labor and our support for undocumented immigrants over the last two years. What organized labor is doing is what they have always done, that is standing up for the rights and protections of all workers, particularly exploited workers. And undocumented immigrants certainly is a class of workers that have been exploited.
Secondly, we have concerns about an expanded guest worker program as well. Our concerns are this: That we should learn from the past. The Pressaro (ph) programs of the '60s are not the kind of programs that we are supportive of. We believe that what we must do is look at the existing guest worker programs we have in this country. And that they should be reformed to ensure that individuals that work under guest worker programs in the United States can work for more than just a single employer.
And that as they come and work under a guest worker program, that there is a component of that program that leads towards legalization at some point in time. We believe that that would be effective guest worker program.
FRAZIER: Gentlemen, thanks for that explanation. I'm afraid that will be have to be the last word. We're running out of time. I'm grateful for both of you for your insights. Roy Beck and Terry O'Sullivan. Thank you for joining us today.
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