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America Under Attack: The Aftermath

Aired September 12, 2001 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight: aftermath of the unthinkable. Americans struggle to count the terrible cost of what the president calls acts of war and contemplate what comes next.

Good evening. I'm Larry King. And this is a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be with you, of course, for the full hour and then more special reports throughout the 24-hour period that we cover it on CNN.

Before we meet all of our guests, let's start the newest member of the CNN family, Paula Zahn in New York.

Paula, can give us update as to how things stand now and what's happening with that third building?


There is a lot to talk about tonight on a lot of different fronts. For starters, I'm going to bring you up to date on what the administration is planning to do. They are certainly laying the groundwork for a strong military response, reaching to allies across the world in the aftermath of what you just said President Bush called an act of war.

Secretary of State Colin Powell told me earlier today this will not be over in a week or two. It will be a full-scale assault, not just by the United States, but by what he called the whole civilized community.

Now, there's some interesting information that came out of the White House today: Press Secretary Ari Fleischer now confirming that the United States has real and credible evidence that that one plane that slammed into the Pentagon was actually intended to fly and to hit the White House. Also, Mr. Fleischer says Air Force One was supposed to have been a target too. That is why the president, who was in Florida at the time of these multiple attacks, was not immediately flown back to Washington, D.C.

On the congressional front, the House and Senate have each passed a resolution condemning Tuesday's attacks. The chairman of the House Appropriations Committee is confirming that Congress will move quickly to pass or appropriate some $20 billion earmarked for rescue efforts, repairs and counterterrorism efforts. The money will go, obviously, to federal, state and local agencies involved in the cleanup, Larry. Meanwhile, the investigation is actually expanding in a number of different ways tonight.

KING: Yes, we're going to be covering that through the hour.

I did want to ask you, Paula, about that building was sort of coming down, coming down. What happened to it?

ZAHN: Well, here in New York City, we're keeping an eye on three or four buildings that are seriously degraded. There is a 54-story tower that now is partially collapsed, which sat across from what used to be the World Trade Center.

There are two hotels in the area that have strong structural problems. They may go. Now, this further complicates rescue efforts here. As you know, Larry, about the only good news to come out of the city today is that rescuers were able to successfully rescue 11 folks trapped in the rubble. That included six firefighters, three police officers.

And I think what the city is having the toughest time wrestling with right now is the tremendous scale of loss here -- the mayor, Larry, telling us earlier today the numbers are going to be horrific. He expects it to be several thousand in each tower.

And, as you know, having lived here before, I think the news that has left New Yorkers the most numb is that New York lost its fire chief, its deputy fire chief, as well as 300 firefighters and well over 80 police officers.

KING: Unbelievable.

ZAHN: And time, as you know, Larry, isn't benefiting anyone. You know that within the first 24 hours of one of these catastrophes, that is your chance to rescue people.

KING: Yes. Paula...

ZAHN: But there is still hope.

KING: We'll see you in an hour with Aaron Brown on a CNN special report. Thanks for joining us. And welcome aboard.

ZAHN: Thank you. Glad to be a part of your team.

KING: Paula Zahn -- she will be back in an hour.

Now let's stay in New York and meet Captain Kenneth Erb of the New York City Fire Department. He's captain of the firehouse at West 31st Street. His firehouse lost three firefighters yesterday. And he also lost a long-time friend, Father Mychael Judge, the fire chaplain for the New York City Fire Department.

And with Captain Erb is firefighter James Grillo of the New York City Fire Department -- as you can see, some injuries suffered. He was in the south tower when it went down and lost several of his firefighter friends.

Mr. Grillo, James, what was it like when you got there?

JAMES GRILLO, NEW YORK FIRE DEPARTMENT: It was terror, shear terror. Bodies were falling out of the sky. They were jumping off the 105th floor and they were landing all over the street and the sidewalk. There was fear in everybody's eyes.

KING: You also saw people jumping out of buildings, right?

GRILLO: Yes. They were jumping out from everywhere from the 70th floor above. It was horrible. I saw...

KING: And what were you doing?

GRILLO: I was trying to avoid looking up and watching it, Mr. King. It was horrible. I saw dozens of people jumping.

KING: Now, how did you get hurt, James?

GRILLO: I was -- my assignment with Ladder 24, the company I'm assigned to, we were supposed to go into building No. 2, the south tower and make our way into tower No. 1, the north tower. And we were caught in the collapse in the lobby of tower No. 2, the south tower.

KING: Boy.

Captain Erb, now, you didn't go to the scene, Captain? Is that true?

CAPTAIN KENNETH ERB, NEW YORK FIRE DEPARTMENT: No, I wasn't working that day. I came on in a recall.

KING: You were off and they brought you in?

ERB: They had a recall for all police officers and fire officers as soon as the news struck. The media gave that announcement. And we all, one way or the other, got in, through hitchhiking, get in your car or whatever.

KING: You lost, what, three firefighters from the station on West 31st Street?

ERB: We did. We lost a firefighter, a lieutenant and a captain.

KING: And are you the one that has to inform the nearest relative?

ERB: I went out with another former captain last night. Normally, in this circumstance, Father Mychael Judge would be helping us out with this. But, of course, he passed away and he couldn't do it. So it was so chaotic, there was really -- we had to make our own procedures.

So me and Chief Keyes (ph), who used to be a member of Ladder 24, we went and got a former, retired battalion chief, who is a deacon in the Catholic Church. And we informed the family of the lieutenant and my fellow captain. We informed the families that they were gone.

KING: There's no training for that, is there, Captain?

ERB: No, not to my knowledge.

KING: Did you lose any friends, Jimmy Grillo?

GRILLO: I lost very many friends, quite a few friends, personal friends. And the fire department is made up, everybody is a friend in the fire department, thousands of men. We're all friends.

But, personally, I've lost quite a few, maybe a dozen personal friends. And it breaks my heart. They were great men. They very great men.


GRILLO: Men with families, men that have babies on the way, men that are husbands, new homeowners. It's tragic.

KING: And after something like this, James, do you ever think of maybe not being a firemen anymore?

GRILLO: I'll be a firemen at least for another 20 years.

KING: So no thought of leaving that


GRILLO: No, Mr. King, I will always be a fireman here in New York City, protecting the people of New York and my friends.

KING: Captain, what can you tell us about the late father Mychael Judge?

ERB: Oh, I can tell you a great many things.

He was a great man. He was very close to the members of Engine 1 and Ladder 24. He was stationed at Saint Francis across the street from our house. He kept his car in the house. He stopped and talked to us every night. He was not only our spiritual leader, but he was a very good friend to us and a father figure, somewhat.

I mean, there are things that I would talk to him about that maybe I would only talk to my own father about.

KING: I think we can hear some words from the father. Can we hear that?



MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: Some of the people that we lost, we saw, like Father Judge and Chief Gansi, Bill Feehan. We saw them about 10 minutes before we went over to 75 Barkley Street. And as I talked to their families and I explained to them that they were working very hard and they were working at what they loved to do. And I'm sure their efforts will end up having saved other lives.


KING: And joining us as well is Jesse Blumenthal of Saint Vincent's hospital in New York.

And, Jessie, I understand -- did you work -- Doctor, did you work on the priest?

DR. JESSE BLUMENTHAL, SAINT VINCENT'S HOSPITAL: Well, no, I had taken care of the priest previously. He had been a patient of mine. I knew him. And everything they said about him, he was really an outstanding gentleman.

KING: And what did he die from?

BLUMENTHAL: Well, no, I did not take care of him at this time. I said I have taken care of him in the past.

KING: And what kind of person was he?

BLUMENTHAL: Oh, he was a very warm, outgoing man, a delightful man.

KING: What's the situation like at the hospital?

BLUMENTHAL: Well, right now, things have quieted down. And we're obviously, you know, quite displayed at the lack of patients that we have had. There was an initial frenzy. We've seen over 370 patients yesterday.

And, unfortunately, after about 1:00 this morning, they just have been unable to extricate anybody. And, of course, the assumption is that there are very few survivors. We have taken a few people out. But, certainly, we know that the vast majority of people in the building have not survived.

KING: Thank you, Jesse.

And thank you, Captain Erb and firefighter Grillo. We salute you all.

Joining us now from Washington is Dr. Bernadine Healy. She is president and CEO of the American Red Cross, the 20th person to lead that nation's foremost -- this nation's foremost humanitarian organization.

What's the latest information you have on the need for blood?

DR. BERNADINE HEALY, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN RED CROSS: Well, Americans have responded with great compassion and with every bit that they can offer with regard to our need for blood, Larry.

We have had blood drives all over this country. They're expanded. Our entire Red Cross headquarters has been turned into one huge giant field hospital, people coming in and giving blood, waiting, in some cases, for five, six hours. Every time we say, "We're sorry it's taking this long," they say, "We want to be here."

It's almost become a chapel. People are coming there to give blood, to mourn, to hold hands and to do the one thing that they think they can do, that they know they can do, as a statement of their solidarity, of their devotion, of their defiance of this hideous terrorism and these -- the life that has been lost and the fear that has been instilled in every American because of this.

KING: Doctor, do you have Red Cross volunteers at the scene now?

HEALY: Yes, we have. In New York, of course, we have over 400, 500 volunteers working that have been working around the clock since yesterday.

We also have volunteers out at the Pentagon site. We provide there help in food, relief, cots to the rescue workers, those heroes that you have been talking about, Larry. We're also there to help with the families of the victims at all of the sites, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, because -- Pennsylvania -- because whenever there's an air crash, the Red Cross is there.

We deal -- one big air crash is an enormous proportion. Here we're seeing four air crashes in one day.

KING: So how could you have -- you could certainly not have planned for this.

HEALY: We cannot plan for this. But for the past year, we have been working intensely with the federal government understand the federal response plan for weapons of mass destruction. And what we have seen is an airliner, a commercial airliner filled with human beings turned into a weapon of mass destruction.

KING: What's your No. 1 need now?

HEALY: The No. 1 need now is to -- across the country, is going to be brief counseling. It's going to be people reaching out to try and understand this.

This is, of course, about these victims who were hideously harmed and damaged. But it's about every American who is mourning today. It is about every American who has been terrified by what they have seen. It's the children across this country. And the American Red Cross is working with the Department of Health and Human Services, Secretary Thompson, to see that in all of our chapters around the country, we will be providing grief counseling for people of all ages to help them through what will be a very difficult time ahead.

You know, Larry, we know from our work in disasters, that mourning goes on. We know that people go into -- very susceptible to depression, susceptible to sadness of the highest kind. And people listening tonight are going to feel it too.

KING: Thank you, Dr. Healy. We'll see you again soon -- Dr. Bernadine Healy.

We go now to Fort Myers, Florida. Rudy Dekkers joins us. He is the owner of Huffman Aviation International. The FBI has talked to Rudy about a possible suspect, reports that two of the bombing suspects may have attended his school.

Is that what they talked to you about, Rudy?


They called us. They came by at 2:40, 2:45 a.m. last night. And they got from my managers several files about these students. And during the day, we found a lot more about these students. They had been with us from July until October, November last year, and obtained the first licenses they needed to fly.

KING: So this was their initial training as pilots, right?

DEKKERS: Yes, it's an initial training. They came walking into the door, checked our facility and choose to fly with us. And in November, apparently -- that's what we heard and learned today -- they went to other flight schools to obtain jet training.

We do not provide jet training. The training we provide at Huffman Aviation in Venice is solely for small planes.

KING: Were they of a nationality other than American?

DEKKERS: No, they were -- my people took copies of their passports when they came in, because they need to show a I.D. And, apparently, they were -- one of them was an Afghanistan. I don't know what the other one was.

I don't see the files myself because I have my managers taking care of that. I have spoken with one of them in several occasions. And Mr. Atta, I spoke to him one time five minutes.

KING: That's Mohammed Atta, right?

DEKKERS: Mohammed Atta, that's correct.

KING: And he was one of the two.

Were they good pilots?

DEKKERS: I have checked today with the instructor and with the examiner who did the flight tests. And they were average pilots, average pilots.

KING: Average. They had to go on to -- now, with your training, they couldn't go on and fly a 757 or a 767. So they go on to jet school.


KING: Were you shocked by all of this? Did they ever look -- did you ever have any inkling that these people might be involved? And, again, this is just conjecture. We don't know that they were the pilots on any of these planes. What do you make of it?


Well, I was shocked yesterday when it happened in the United States, with the tragedy. Today, it was at my doorstep and not 2,000 miles away. We were in shock. And we're still in shock. We had no knowledge, of course. None of my people -- I have 48 employees in Venice -- and none of them had any idea, of course.

It's an unbelievable -- the feeling we have is undescribable. It's terrible.

KING: Now, Rudy, if they were involved, they had to have been planning this for a long time.

DEKKERS: Well, yes. The first day, when we saw what happened, we thought, you know, like every other American, would this be planned a long time ahead, etcetera, etcetera? We know now that they were flying with us from July to November.

And after our flight school, they went to another flight school. So they have been planning this quite a while.

KING: In the questioning, did the FBI give you an indication that they were strong suspects?

DEKKERS: They did not speak to me about questioning, because that happened at 2:30, 2:40 a.m. this morning. And they called me at 7:00 this morning. I briefly talked to the FBI, when they were ready to leave the office. And they indicated to my employees that they thought that these were prime suspects, yes, sir.

KING: I guess in your life of training people to be pilots, you never thought that you would have people use you to go on to do terroristic acts.

DEKKERS: No. You don't think about that. We do all the necessary work to know who customers are. We have a lot of foreign students coming over. These people were foreigners, but they came over directly in the front door.

They said they had been flying with other flight schools in the United States. They were not happy, choose our school to finalize their training.

KING: Rudy, thank you. I know how tough this must be for you -- Rudy Dekkers, the owner of Huffman Aviation International.

DEKKERS: Thank you.

KING: We meet now -- thank you -- three experts on the subject of terrorism. Here now in Los Angeles is Brian Jenkins. He returns again. He's a consultant to governments and private sector, senior adviser to the president of the RAND Corporation. In Washington is Christopher Whitcomb, FBI supervisory special agent, a former member of the elite FBI Hostage Rescue Team and author of a terrific book, "Cold Zero: Inside the FBI Hostage Rescue Team." Also in Washington is Peter Bergen, CNN's terrorism analyst, who was working on a book about Osama bin Laden and interviewed Bin Laden four years ago.

Brian, what do you make, first, of this Boston thing today?

BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM EXPERT: Well, I think we're going to...

KING: SWAT teams going in and...

JENKINS: I think we're going to see a very, very quick action, as I mentioned yesterday.

An operation of this size is going to leave a lot of footprints, a lot of fingerprints, a lot of clues. And the action in Boston we saw today, the revelations about the flight school that we just saw repeated now are the kind of information that we are going to see developing over the next several days.

So I think the investigation will move very, very quickly, at least in so far as identifying the actual participants in the attack.

KING: Christopher, if it gets to the point, as we have promised, that we will take them out, we will rid them from this planet in a sense, we are at war with them, how do you do that, Christopher? How do you take out a bin Laden or someone like a bin Laden, who is hidden, who moves around, and who may be under cover of the country he lives in?

CHRISTOPHER WHITCOMB, FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Well, I don't know about taking him out, Larry. But I think we have a lot of options. And one of them, obviously, is military.

The other -- because this is a law enforcement operation and because we have to go with the justice system, and we want to bring ultimately these people to justice -- we have done, in the past, operations which are referred to as renditions, where we go into other countries -- with the cooperation of those countries, of course -- and bring people back to the United States.

KING: Yes.

The public, though -- I think 94 percent of the public, Christopher, wants us to go in somewhere and do something. Do you understand that?

WHITCOMB: No, I understand it's a very, very reasonable thing to want to bring these people to justice. But I want to point out that we have done this in the past going way back to the mid-'80s with Fawaz Younis, who was an aircraft hijacker, and moving through the '90s with people like Mir Kansi and Ramzi Yousef, people like that, that we've reached out to these people in foreign countries and brought them back to the United States.

We have done this in the past. And there's no doubt in my mind that we will find these people and we'll bring them back one way or another.

KING: Peter, what can you tell us, briefly, about bin Laden? What is he like?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: When I met him in '97, he spoke -- he spoke in a very mild-mannered way. He was somewhat polite. He bears himself in a slightly haughty manner. But he delivered his words of rage against the United States. And the words were full of rage. But the manner was very mild.

Just going to your point about it, that if bin Laden is in fact behind all these attacks, an operation as Mr. Whitcomb referred to, to go in and perhaps snatch him, as was the case with Ramzi Yousef in the World Trade Center bombing, this would be an order of magnitude very different, because unlike Ramzi Yousef, who was essentially operating by himself -- and there was a $2 million reward on his head -- Osama bin Laden is surrounded by dozens of battle-hardened veterans who are intimately familiar with a rocky, difficult terrain of Afghanistan.

It would be a very, very messy operation to go in and either snatch him or even attempt to kill him. I think the United States has considered this in the past and dismissed it in '98.

KING: Brian, could you -- well, I guess the public would look at it this simply. Couldn't you bomb him out?

BERGEN: I don't know that you could bomb him out. I think that the magnitude of this operation is going to call for a qualitatively different response than we have seen in the past to acts of terrorism.

The shock that's turning to grief that will soon turn to anger on the part of the American people is going to demand something more than a salvo of cruise missiles. I think, really, what the administration is going to be building toward is a more of a sustained campaign, a sustained series of operations that will involve both diplomacy and military operations designed to create an environment that will ultimately allow us to go in and, if indeed it turns out to be Osama bin Laden, then to attempt to capture or to deal with him in another way.

KING: Now, Christopher, in the last chapter of your book, you say crisis resolution has become an art in this country. And that's good because terrorism is coming. You don't need an army to lay siege to a country anymore.

Obviously, we saw that yesterday. What can you do about it, Christopher?

WHITCOMB: Well, it's a complicated issue. I wrote that because we're talking about terrorism being spread by the media. And I talk about all you're needing is a pipe bomb and some good air coverage.

We have gone way beyond that in the past couple days to an extraordinary attack on the country. But I think what we have now is a unique opportunity to bring all the resources of the United States together. We need the political will of the people and the elected officials, obviously, to do something here.

But this is an aspect for the military, an aspect for the intelligence community and for law enforcement. And you really need to bring all of those together to go after him. I agree completely that this is going to be very difficult to go into Afghanistan. But there are some avenues we can pursue.

KING: Peter Bergen, what do you think about the information we learned that one of these planes -- the plane, apparently, that left Dulles -- was going to go to the White House or maybe Air Force One?

BERGEN: Well, that is what's being reported. Clearly, the White House is the ultimate symbol. Bin Laden's people are very interested in attacking symbols of the United States government, whether it's embassies or warships or symbols of America's economic might, as in the World Trade Center, it appears.

So, clearly, it makes sense. These people operate on symbols. They're very interested in anniversaries, the anniversary of the introduction of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia was the occasion eight years later for the bombing of the U.S. embassies in Africa. So I think it makes sense that it might be related to bin Laden in that sense.

KING: Brian, finally, are we going to see more than less?

JENKINS: More? I think...

KING: Acts?

JENKINS: I think we have to assume that possibility. That's not a prediction. But, certainly, as we mount -- as we mobilize to respond, there are...

KING: Assume the worst.

JENKINS: I beg your pardon?

KING: Assume the worst?

JENKINS: I think we have to assume that there will be more attacks. They may not be on this scale, because this was months in the planning.

But we cannot presume that we will be able to engage in a worldwide combat against a terrorist network, a series of terrorist networks and have immunity in this country. It was demonstrated we don't have it yesterday. It can be demonstrated again.

KING: Yes. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you all.

Here is a brief note of what was said by President Bush earlier today. And then we will meet our next guests.



GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The deliberate and deadly attacks which were carried out yesterday against our country were more than acts of terror. They were acts of war. This will require our country to unite in steadfast determination and resolve. Freedom and democracy are under attack.


KING: We're back. We're joined now in Saratoga, California by Alice Hoglan. Her son Mark Bingham called her from the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that left Newark and crashed in Pennsylvania. There you see his picture.

In New York is Lorie Van Auken. Her husband, Kenneth, is missing. He was working on the 102nd floor of the World Trade Center north tower. In New York, at Saint Vincent's Hospital are Karen Wiley and Michael Rosweiler. They are searching for their missing father, Roger Mark Rosweiler. And also in New York is Gil Baker, the New Yorker who helped out after the bombing and later managed to shoot home video of that rescue effort.

We'll start with Alice Hoglan.

Your son was on the plane. He called you and said what, Alice?

ALICE HOGLAN, MOTHER OF HIJACKING VICTIM: He said, "I just want to let you know that I love you all. There are three men on board who have taken over the aircraft, and they say they have a bomb."

And at that point, we were cut off. He wasn't able to say anything else. The conversation lasted about a minute. He was very intent on telling us that he loved us, trying to impart other information, but he was thwarted in that.

KING: Alice, you are a flight attendant for that airline?

HOGLAN: Yes, I am. I'm a flight attendant for United Airlines, based in San Francisco.

KING: Oh, my gosh.

HOGLAN: As is my sister, Candace (ph). Mark was flying on Candy's companion pass. That's Candy on the right. That's Mark in the middle, me on the left.

KING: Now, later we would learn from another passenger calling that the men on that plane, apparently -- apparently, from what we have learned -- attacked the hijackers. And that was probably the cause of it going down in Pennsylvania and not in Washington somewhere.

So you and your son and the others were heroes. How did you feel upon learning that?

HOGLAN: Well, it's no surprise to us. We know that Mark is a very take-charge sort of guy. He doesn't back away from a fight. He is very hands-on. He is wonderful in a clinch. I know that he was seated in seat 4-D, which is up in first class. So he was very visible to these hijackers. And he was also close to them.

And it is very likely that he participated, if he was at all able, in that attempt at intervention in the last there. And, yes, indeed, if that is the case, then they, those brave people that did that were successful in saving the lives of many, many hundreds of people on the ground. And we take a lot of comfort in that.

KING: Boy.

You should. Alice, thank you.

Lorie Van Auken is in New York. Her husband Kenneth is missing. He was working on the 102nd floor.

What does he do, Lorie?

LORIE VAN AUKEN, WIFE OF MISSING WORLD TRADE CENTER WORKER: He works for Cantor Fitzgerald. And he's a bond broker. And he was on the 102nd floor. And we just haven't heard anything at all.

KING: Did you talk to him at all? Did he call home?

L. VAN AUKEN: He called home. He left a message. And that's the last I heard from him.

KING: That message was left on your answering machine?

L. VAN AUKEN: Yes, it was.

KING: Yes.

Let's listen to the voice of Kenneth Van Auken calling home.


KENNETH VAN AUKEN, WORLD TRADE CENTER WORKER: I love you. I'm in the World Trade Center. And the building was hit by something. I don't know if I'm going to get out. But I love you very much. I hope I'll see you later. Bye.


KING: Boy, Lorie, what must it be like to hear that?

L. VAN AUKEN: It was just horrible. It was really just horrible. I could hear the terror in his voice. And he was trying to sound like he was calm for us. But you could hear the chaos in the background and the terror in his voice.

KING: You have children, Lorie?

L. VAN AUKEN: I do. I have two children. My son is 14, Matthew. And my daughter is 12. Her name is Sarah (ph).

KING: How are they handling this?

L. VAN AUKEN: Oh, Sarah is a mess. She goes in waves with hysterical crying and back and forth. And Matthew is in some denial, I think. But, you know, he's obviously beginning to see that, you know, his dad has not contacted us yet. So we're waiting.

KING: Did you -- Lorie, did you get the message before you had turned on the television to see what was happening or after?

L. VAN AUKEN: Before. I got the message before I turned on the television, and turned on the television right away and realized it was a plane that hit the building, and of course, thought it was just an accident at first, and then saw the other plane hit the other building and realized that it was a terrorist attack.

KING: Laura, our prayers and thoughts are with you.

L. VAN AUKEN: Thank you.

KING: Karen Wiley and Michael Rosweiler are at St. Vincent's Hospital searching for their missing father, Roger -- Mark Rosweiler.

Karen, what was he -- was he in -- which tower was he in?

KAREN WILEY, SEARCHING FOR MISSING DAD: He was in Tower One and he was on the 100th floor, and we know he was there because a co- worker of his had received a voice mail from him at 8:40 asking him to go to lunch. We haven't heard anything else except we -- I've gotten a fax, my mom and my sister at home got a fax saying that -- from somebody in the Coast Guard, saying that an unidentified male, John Doe, was admitted to a burn unit, matching his full description down to his back surgery. And we're not sure if it was a false lead, or -- we're just trying to -- trying to keep the hope and just hoping that that was him, or that he's somewhere that we can find him. We've been passing out fliers.

KING: I see that. Michael, where was he admitted? Where was John Doe admitted, to a burn center where?

MICHAEL ROSWEILER, SEARCHING FOR MISSING DAD: We don't know. We heard -- the fax said that he was sent to Jefferson Hospital. And we talked to a bunch of people on the street and nobody has heard from, heard about the hospital. And then later on we got some news that he was shipped to Canada, so we're really -- we have no further information.

KING: Karen, do you know what hospital in Canada the John Doe was sent to?

WILEY: They didn't know. Our family was trying to call and they don't seem to be having any luck right now finding a John Doe anywhere.

KING: Well, maybe we can help. If someone watching in Canada or somewhere knows about a John Doe, had burns from that tragedy, there's a number you can call. It's 908-782-4986. That's 908-782-4986.

Karen and Michael, I sure hope you find Mark.

WILEY: Thank you.

ROSWEILER: Thank you.

WILEY: Thank you very much.

KING: Roger Mark Rosweiler. The number again, 908-782-4986. Let's check in with Gil Baker, the New Yorker who helped out after the bombing. Where were you, Gil?

GIL BAKER, NEW YORKER: Well, I began the day just north of Housen Street, which is some distance from the World Trade Center, directing traffic at an intersection, the NYPD directed me to go to an intersection that needed some supervision and didn't have any officers. So I was at an intersection there for an hour or so.

Then they were calling for help at a triage setup center that they were putting together at North Moore and Greenwich. So I went over there and ended up, ultimately, directing traffic for seven hours.

KING: And this is a video you took, right? The video we're seeing now is video you took?

BAKER: Yeah, it is.

KING: How did you think of doing that?

BAKER: Well, I work 13 hours as a volunteer, and at the end of that period of time, I was tired, but still enervated, and thought it would be a good idea to capture the heroics, basically, of the fire department and the police in their efforts to find people.

KING: The helmet you're wearing signifies what?

BAKER: It signifies you don't want to get your head caved in by a piece of falling debris. This is, these were given away, Larry. These helmets were given away.

KING: What do you do for a living, Gil?

BAKER: I'm a film maker. That's what I do, Larry.

KING: A-ha. So you were appropriately armed, in a sense.

BAKER: I came back armed. I worked 13 hours without a camera, had no intention of shooting anything. When I finally made it to the epicenter, which was at night -- I got down there at about 10:00 at night, one of my first assignments was to move 11 surgeons to the new triage center, which was no longer at North Moore Street and Greenwich, but was down right across the street at One Liberty Plaza, a building which is going to be falling down, if it hasn't already.

KING: Wow, what a thing to live through.


KING: Thank you, Gil. Gil Baker.

BAKER: You're welcome.

KING: Joining us now in Washington, three distinguished members of the United States Senate. Senator Joseph Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut. He, of course, was his party -- that is Senator Biden that you're looking at. There is Senator Lieberman. He is the Democrat of Connecticut, member of the Armed Services Committee and a chairman of governmental affairs, and the former vice presidential candidate of his party.

Senator Joe Biden now, Democrat of Delaware, chairman of Foreign Relations. And Senator John Kyle, our friend from Arizona, member of the Select Intelligence Committee, a ranking member of Judiciary Committee's subcommittee on technology, terrorism and government information.

And let's go first to Jon Karl on Capitol Hill, before we talk with our senators -- Jon.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Larry, we've got some new information for you. What we have learned is that Republicans and Democrats on the leadership level are working with the White House right now, on what some are calling a resolution authorizing the use of force to respond to these attacks. J.C. Watts, one of the members of the Republican leadership in the House, is calling it a resolution of resolve.

We know this, congressional leaders on both sides say this was a request that came from the White House for such a resolution. Language is being worked out. There are some concerns that have already been raised by some Democratic members that this could be something like a Gulf of Tonkin resolution -- they don't want to go that far, they don't want to allow a blank check for military action. But this is something that, right now over on the House side, leadership members on both sides trying to work out some kind of agreement on language, because the White House wants something further, something more than what the Congress did today.

As you know, the Congress today debated a resolution, passed resolution in the Senate 100-nothing, basically condemning this act and calling for unity and calling for action. This would be something a little bit further, something like what we saw back in 1991 with the Gulf War resolution authorizing the use of force. But there's no agreement yet on exactly how far that would go, but this is something that's going on right now at this late hour in the Capitol.

KING: Thanks, Jon. And, Senator Lieberman, your comment on what Jon Karl just told us.

SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN (D-CT), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Larry, I haven't seen the words. I've heard about the discussions. There will not be a significant disagreement among members of the Senate, and I would guess the House, on party lines. We're all united. We support a response, retaliation. And I think even beyond that, we support a genuine long-term, comprehensive, sustained war against terrorism, until we beat it and we don't have to face this kind of tragedy again.

KING: Senator Biden, Jon Karl did say that some Democrats were a little wary, and Senator Lieberman says no. Do you join Senator Lieberman?

SEN. JOE BIDEN (D-DE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: I'm part of that group that has staff there working out the language, and the answer is, there's going to be no disagreement. Originally, there was a discussion about a declaration of war, and as John McCain said earlier in the preceding program, the question was, war against whom? So there is going to be no disagreement. I predict that what we come out with will be 100 to nothing, and I think there will be absolute resolve, part of the confusion related to how the request was communicated and so on. But I think it's a non-issue.

KING: Senator Kyl, you're a member of the select intelligence committee. Did intelligence fail us?

SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ), SELECT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: In one sense, Larry, you'd have to say it failed us, because we didn't predict what was going to happen. But there's a connotation to that, that somebody was grossly negligent and to blame, and we cannot conclude that yet. Until we do our complete analysis, we're really not going to know what we knew.

I think the key thing is, we have got to continue to remind ourselves that we don't know what we don't know. And we shouldn't assume that we can predict these kinds of things.

KING: What we do know, Senator Lieberman, is that men who shouldn't have, got in to airports, got in to airplanes, and commandeered them.

LIEBERMAN: Absolutely right, Larry. But by total coincidence, the committee I now chair today held a long-planned hearing on the vulnerability of America's critical infrastructure to enemy attack. We happened to focus today on computers, and the way in which our financial systems and energy systems are dependent on them, and they can be broken into. But the same is true of transportation and air transport.

We just let our guard down. I mean, I think yesterday was a turning point in American history, and I think what it says to us is that we have got to begin to organize, to defend our homeland in a way we never have before because we thought the oceans protected us. But now, we're subject to attack from terrorists, from cyberattackers and indeed, from ballistic missiles, and we have to put our guard up.

KING: Senator Biden, do we follow rules of law -- something that this country and all of us are raised with, or do we, as 94 percent Americans say, go in and take them out? BIDEN: By the way, when you go in and take them out, you don't have to follow rules of law. The rules of law apply to American citizens and people on American soil. There is not a rule of law when there's a war. There's not a rule of law.

KING: Yes, but you could file it, you could file a -- you can go to international courts, you could file (UNINTELLIGIBLE) asking...

BIDEN: No, that's ridiculous. Wrong. Ridiculous, not even in the game. A country yields its sovereignty when, in fact, it participates in an act that causes grave damage to another country. There is no question under any law, international or otherwise, that if we have the proof to show that there is a complicitous country, that they have committed an act of war against us, and retaliation is fully within every single, solitary category of law, international and local. But that's very different than retaliating.

KING: Could not have been stated more forcefully. Senator Kyl, do you expect this to be swift?

KYL: Well, we've made tremendous progress, just in the day-and- a-half that have passed since this tragedy, in identifying people that we think had something to do with it, and expanding the investigation to a larger network.

I think what we're going to find is that we will make good progress quickly, because of the skill of our people, but that we're going to find a very large network of people complicit in this operation. And the difference is that we may find that they are people of different origins or nationalities, people who lived in different countries, who traveled to different countries, and we may find that different countries harbored some of them. And perhaps those that still live are being harbored yet in other countries. So it may be quite difficult for us to find targets here that we can retaliate against.


KING: Quickly, yeah.

BIDEN: One very important thing, real quickly. NATO, for the first time in its history, passed what they call an Article 5 resolution, saying that if this attack was organized from abroad, it is an attack against all of NATO, they will participate in any retaliation. This is the most significant thing that's happened, and Colin Powell is to be complimented in the way he is generating support, including from Russia, China, and moderate states in the Middle East. It's a big deal.

KING: We thank Senators Lieberman, Biden and Kyl. We'll be calling on them again.

Joining us now to discuss this from a standpoint of aviation, and aviation safety, in Columbus Ohio, is Mary Schiavo, aviation/safety expert, former inspector general, Department of Transportation. Here in Los Angeles, Michael Barr, director of the aviation safety program at the University of Southern California. That program draws students from throughout the United States and the world, 20,000 aviation professionals have attended. Barr himself is a former Air Force fighter pilot.

And in Philadelphia, a return visit from Arthur Wolf, the aviation safety and law expert, a qualified pilot himself, and a strong critic of what happened. He thinks there was a total breakdown of enforcement, and that this never should have happened.

Mary, do you agree with that?

MARY SCHIAVO, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT: Absolutely. Not only was there a total breakdown and this never should have happened, the government has known about weaknesses, has discussed these weaknesses. I participated in some of these discussions within the government. Literally, in the early '90s, clear up through '96, this was a known weakness and an accepted risk. The only people kept in the dark were the American public.

KING: Michael Barr?

MICHAEL BARR, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT: I agree. One mortal weakness and one mortal enemy of aviation safety and security is complacency. And that's exactly what we were guilty of.

KING: Who was complacent? The security people, who? All of us?

BARR: The security people, the government, the airlines, everyone. After the PanAm 103 accident, we had 60 recommendations on security. Then we had another accident, in which we said, all right, Americans are going to be victims of terrorists in America, American buildings. We must act now.

That report was in 1996, after TWA 800, of the Gore commission. And not all of those results have ever been implemented.

KING: And the obvious question, Arthur, is, why not?

Well, because we have a tombstone mentality within the agency responsible for aviation safety, and that's the Federal Aviation Administration.

ARTHUR WOLK, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT: You know, Larry, there was a knee jerk reaction today. The FAA implemented some rules at airports that are going to delay tens of millions of passengers. Do you know, not a single one of the rules implemented today would have prevented this tragedy? So the tragedy of the tragedy is that the government still doesn't get it. It still doesn't have the sense to understand what is necessary to protect our citizens. And that is: sky marshals.

If we have to arm the pilots, let's do it. If we have to train the flight attendants in martial arts, let's do it. If we have to scrutinize our passengers better, let's do it. But to say that curbside checking of luggage is no longer acceptable, when it wouldn't have prevented anything, is, in my opinion, insane.

SCHIAVO: That's right.

KING: Mary, if you agree with that, are we reopening the airports too soon?

SCHIAVO: Absolutely. I agree with Art so much. I mean, we have talked about this before, and Larry, you have talked about this before. We are doing a lot of things because the FAA wants to show that things are back to normal. That is the worst thing that the FAA could do. That is exactly what the terrorists want us to do. We should never even consider going back to normal.

And what did the FAA do today? They have made ridiculous pronouncements. At first they said they were going to open at noon, then they left each airport to decide, when they had done their sweeps. Then they made ridiculous pronouncements, like no more steak knives on planes. And then they did things like curbside checking, instead of what they should have been doing, which was formulating a national strategy to combat this.

And I think they have positively shown today they cannot do it. Airport and aviation security is a law enforcement function. It belongs with a law enforcement agency, not the FAA.

KING: Even if that means, Michael, just tying up airports, and no traffic, and people not able to fly, take a train, take a car, no business travel? I mean, the economy would stand still.

BARR: I don't agree with Draconian results, but what I do think is that whatever we do -- it can't be for a week, or a month, or a year. It has to be forever. So we have to think these things out.

A report this morning said the Seattle Tacoma Airport is going to have no carry-on baggage, including purses. Now, what's going to happen to my blood pressure medicine? Am I going to have to put that in a suitcase? And then lose the suitcase and then try to get my medicine wherever I'm going? So they've got to think about this for awhile.

KING: Do you agree with marshals on every plane?

BARR: Yes, and I think we need to. In the report of the Gore commission, they wanted marshals. They wanted $160 million worth of new equipment, and $5 million to train new personnel. They ran out of money for marshals, the people who check you through security are nearly minimum wage, lowly trained, and they're the ones responsible for our safety.

KING: Arthur, was argument against it -- cost?

WOLK: Yes, of course. I mean, that's always the argument. That's why these things don't get accomplished. We had marshals on aircraft for many years, and they were flown randomly on flights. Well, obviously because the threat is so much increased, we can't do it randomly, we have to have them on every flight. You know, one of the things that struck me about the program tonight, Larry, was the people in Washington saying that they have oversight responsibility. Well, let me say this to them: the oversight responsibility does not mean "overlook." It means "look over." And that's the problem that we have in Washington. Oversight to them means overlook.

KING: And is that because, Mary, basically we're a society that's just not used to this, and it's easy to get complacent? Things go along pretty well, we stop doing the checks, we play the people a -- how much do these people get at the check-in gates?

SCHIAVO: Well, it is because in some ways we are complacent, but also, we were told to be complacent. The federal government -- I have been in meetings in the Department of Transportation, where literally, officials with the FAA said, look, we need to give the impression of security, but we can't possibly make airports and aircraft safe. If we did, it would cost $10 billion.

And the reason they said that, it was actually trifold. One, they said because domestic aviation was not targeted, they rated the threat as very low, instead of realizing that because we're not doing anything about it, it's actually very high. Simply because it hasn't been carried out in the past, does mean it doesn't exist.

Two, they said the airlines don't want to pay for security measures, and passengers would not want raised fares. And three, there were actually objections from certain labor unions and work force groups about having additional security. They did not want full background checks, they complained about having convictions knock you out of employment, and they didn't want that. And in the end, they blamed it on the passengers. They said the passengers won't put up with delays.

KING: Let's take a call. Fort Dodge, Iowa, for our panel, hello.

CALLER: Yes, why don't you just seal the bulkhead between the passenger and pilot compartment with no possible entry through it either direction, once the plane is in flight, and have no communication between the two, except through the ground?

KING: Michael?

BARR: Well, I don't think you need to seal it permanently, but what you need to do is get the door in there that is a strong security door. Right now we have a door that stops somebody from going in the cockpit if they want to go to the bathroom.

KING: What if, then, Michael, if a hostage taker just said, "Open the door or I'm going to start killing people"?

BARR: Then you have to have trained for that, and made the decision on whether or not that is going to be followed, or the risk of another World Trade Center is greater than the loss of some members of the crew or passengers. It's a hard choice. It's the same hard choice you would give a fighter pilot to shoot down an airliner if it's headed for Washington central.

KING: And that's what you would do, right?

BARR: If they told me to, yes, I would.

KING: You would shoot down an airliner with people on it.

BARR: Yes, I would, if they were heading for a building with 10,000 people on it.

KING: Arthur Wolk, would your marshals be armed?

WOLK: Of course. They were armed before, they had guns that were designed so that they wouldn't penetrate the airplane structure. And that's what they need to have.

But you have to remember, Larry, that one of the things that strikes me is that if you stop terrorism where you're supposed to, which is before it gets to the airport, you don't have to worry about the sky marshals having to exercise their authority. But the bottom line is, now we know, as we have for the last 20 years or so, that we need sky marshals, and now we need to come up with the money for it. I'll be the first one to send my $300 tax refund back, so they can apply it to that purpose.

KING: So just so we record straight, Arthur, you would favor, until major steps are taken, keeping these airports closed?

WOLK: No, I believe that we have to implement sky marshals immediately. And if that requires marshals that come from the United States marshal service...

KING: I mean, if they don't do it immediately, you wouldn't open until they do it.

WOLK: I think that we have to be very, very careful. We certainly have to put sky marshals on randomly, at the beginning, and then gradually increase it so they're on every flight.

KING: I thank you all very much. We expect to hear a lot more from you, Michael, and Arthur, and Mary Schiavo. We'll conclude our program with a visit with Dr. James Dobson, with Rabbi Harold Kushner and Father Michael Manning, and get their perspective. Tonight at the capital, a prayer vigil.

Listen and watch.


SINGER: (Amazing Grace)


KING: Joining us now from Colorado Springs is Dr. James Dobson, president of Focus of the Family, and author of a new book, "When God Doesn't Make Sense." That title would well-apply to events yesterday. In Boston is Rabbi Harold Kushner, who has written many books, his most famous one, of course, "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People." And also, the new one, "Living a Life That Matters."

And here in Los Angeles, Father Michael Manning, Roman Catholic priest, and host of his own television show, "The Word in the World."

Dr. Dobson, we could well ask, did God make any sense yesterday?

JAMES DOBSON, PRESIDENT, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: Well, Larry, it's certain that the situation is very difficult to understand. And there are no easy answers for it, and people who think they have it figured out just haven't lived long enough, I think.

There are circumstances in our lives, and I tried to write about that, when the pieces just don't fit. And we believe that our obligation in moments like that is to go on trusting and depending on the Lord and looking to him for solace, and millions have done that.

KING: Rabbi Kushner, why did bad things happen to so many good people yesterday?

RABBI HAROLD KUSHNER, AUTHOR: Because human beings are free to decide if they want to do good things or bad things. And some of those human beings are so filled with rage that they go crazy and hurt other people the process. I don't think it was God pulling the strings. You know where I found God yesterday, Larry? In those firemen and policemen who were willing to risk their lives to try and save other lives, in people who lined up for hours to give blood. That's what God was doing. God wasn't making planes crash.

KING: An all powerful God, though, Father, could have prevented it, couldn't he?

FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, HOST, "THE WORD IN THE WORLD": Well, he could have prevented it, but the reality is he loves us too much to allow us to take away our freedom. He believes in us and he believes...

KING: So he loved all those people who went smashing into that building.

Yes, but he believes that there's a battle for evil. I see this as a battle. I see it as a big battle.


MANNING: They gave a good blow, but I certainly don't think we're down. I think that we're in a battle with evil and we've got to fight it. That's the Our Father, "deliver us from evil." And we've got to fight continually for that.

KING: Dr. Dobson, how do we deal with the anger we have? DOBSON: Larry, let me first that I agree with what the other two gentlemen just said. We can't blame this on God. I don't believe that he did it, and he has given us a free will. And if he had not given us that, we would be nothing but puppets on a string. And so people do evil things, and evil people do terrible things, like we have seen here.

As far as grief is concerned, this is a horrible experience for the nation, and we're not going to get over it easily. It's going to take time and we're going to have to have an opportunity to think through what's happened to us and let our emotions heal. But ultimately, I believe that we turn for solace to God, who has been there with us through our crises in the past. Americans are very resilient. They have many resources, and two of the greatest are their families and their faith. And I believe that's where we will turn this time.

KING: Rabbi Kushner, what is your thoughts on the obvious anger people have today toward people whose nationality is different from theirs, or people from a certain region, or the desire to just strike back tomorrow?

KUSHNER: Larry, I would hope that we would be able to do something better with our anger than do what those crazed hijackers did yesterday and try and hurt people because they don't like them, disagree with their politics, find themselves members of a different faith. If we do anything like that, we lower ourselves to their level. And I would hope that there is a more honorable way of paying tribute to the people whose lives were taken yesterday.

Larry, you realize all over this country, rabbis are throwing out their high holiday sermons and writing new ones because of what happened yesterday. I spoke to a colleague yesterday about what there is to say about this, and I was impressed by what he said. He said, now we are all Israelis. That is, we have learned what the Israelis have had to live with for 53 years, the sense of vulnerability and the determination to go on living your normal lives and not let the bad guys take over the field.

KING: What do you say to children, Father Manning, who point to the screen and say, "why did they do that?"

MANNING: Why did they do that? Because, I believe that the battle was not fought in the right way. It's a battle of continually trying to find out where there's injustice, and working as hard as we can to overcome that.

But at the same time, we have to face the fact that there is evil in the world. And when we talk about grief, we talk about the real necessity of talking to those kids, and letting them -- making sure that we listen to them and we hear them, but we give them a deep reflection of faith and understanding, that there is something more powerful and good than all the evil that comes. We have to fight it.

KING: That's good. That's tough convincing, isn't it, Dr. Dobson? DOBSON: It certainly is. But I think it's very important for parents to know that the security and sense of well-being of their children is rooted in their relationship with their parents. And if they see their parents in anguish, if they see them expressing too much grief, if they allow them to see videos of this horrible experience and they perceive it as an ongoing crisis, then the children are going to suffer. And I think it's very important for us to keep them talking, and to let them know that we're not frightened.

And at that point, again, I point us back to prayer. And you can teach children to pray, and ask them to, or teach them to pray for the people who are hurting, and those who are in the hospital. For the firemen and the others, and certainly for the president. And I think you can help them gradually learn to deal with this.

KING: Rabbi, with something like this, are there moments where you doubt your faith?

KUSHNER: No, it's moments when I call on my faith, because where else do I get the courage to get on an airplane next week, to go shopping next week, to invite my family to come for the high holy days us with. If I didn't have that faith that ultimately the world rewards goodness, I don't think I could go on in the face of cruelty like what we experienced yesterday.

KING: And one of the weird things in dealing with the faith, Father, is that these people were probably religious fanatics, right?

MANNING: They were thinking of a God...

KING: So they had a faith.

MANNING: They had a faith in God. As this is -- as a Catholic, I know that we can have an experience of looking back to Inquisition, looking at things like the Crusades, and saying we missed the boat. But I think we have to say: "Let's learn. Let's make sure that, as followers of god, we're not allowing a god of over-judgment to lose the god of patience and kindness and love for us.

KING: We thank all of our guests for being with us tonight. These are very, very, very difficult times. And at CNN, we are trying to do the best to cover it as best we can, bringing you all angles, with the full understanding that we are being seen all around the world, and that the world shares in our grief.

Coming up next is a CNN special report. It will be co-anchored by Aaron Brown, and the newest member of our CNN team, who was with us earlier tonight, Paula Zahn. Aaron and Paula are next. As we leave you, we leave you with that hole in the ground in New York, and we'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Larry King.



4:30pm ET, 4/16

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