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America Under Attack: Searching for Answers

Aired September 13, 2001 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the massive recovery effort goes on. Americans search for answers, and their leaders contemplate action. There you see a night vigil currently at Union Square in New York City, that's a couple blocks above where all the tragedy took place.

Some brief updates for you: the United States Capitol was briefly evacuated today. Dick Cheney has moved on to Camp David to keep him apart from the president. Some airlines have restarted operations. However, Chicago's O'Hare, Washington's Reagan and the three New York City airports all remain closed. And the black box from the United flight that went down in Pennsylvania has been found.

I spoke with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld just moments ago, and the first thing I wanted to know is how this has affected him personally.


DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It's a very emotional thing to see the damage that's been done to our country, not just the Pentagon, but of course in New York City as well.

On the other hand, you look around and see the wonderful response of the people here in the Department of Defense who have help save lives, the wonderful firefighters and Red Cross people. And so, people have come from all over Virginia and Maryland and neighboring states to help.

They are still very much in the process of bringing bodies out of this building, and it will take some time to do it. The damage was so -- just enormous, and the power of that aircraft, filled with jet fuel, driving almost completely through the building, just almost to the inner courtyard.

So it's, on the one hand, it's a terribly sad, difficult time, and your heart goes out to the friends and families of the casualties and the people who've been killed.

On the other hand, you see how patriotic the American people are, the wonderful response they've shown, and it tells a lot about our country.

KING: And there's a lot of personal pain, isn't there?


KING: Mr. Secretary, first -- well, let's hopscotch, cover a lot of bases. Secretary of State Powell described Saddam Hussein today, quote, as "one of the leading terrorists on the face of the Earth." Is Iraq considered in your equation of one of these people we're at war with?

RUMSFELD: I think that the president of the United States has said it correctly, that there are a number of terrorists, and some of them are countries, states. Others are non-state entities. They have a pattern of working somewhat together from time to time. There are a number of states that harbor and facilitate the active work of terrorists, who may or may not be nationals of their country.

There's no question but that all one has to do is to read the words of Saddam Hussein. By his own testimony, his own self- indictment, he is a promoter and an encourager of terrorism, and he has been for a good long time, and he unquestionably is today.

KING: What, Secretary Rumsfeld, will you have to know before we do anything? I mean, what do you have to know know?

RUMSFELD: Well, you know, what you need to do is to establish some linkages between an organization or an organization that's harboring and facilitating an organization that you can reasonably say has been connected to either this event or other events.

And the president of the United States has decided that terrorism strikes at the very heart of our way of life. We are a free people, and the purpose of terrorism is to terrorize. It's to alter behavior. And to the extent a free people have to alter their behavior, they're no longer free. And he's decided that there has to be a broad-based, sustained effort against terrorism on this earth.

KING: So if a country is behind it, then the country bears the prey of us?

RUMSFELD: Well, indeed. Any country that harbors and facilitates and encourages or finances or even tolerates that kind of activity in their country clearly is as responsible as the terrorist.

KING: Do you fear when something like this happens, other terrorist groups, not involved in this, suddenly looking for a way to take advantage?

RUMSFELD: Well, there's no question. There is a lot of that that can happen in the world. But what we're dealing with here is something that is distinctively new to the United States of America. Because of our geography and our history, we have not had to deal with this kind of problem. Other countries have.

Well, we've now arrived at a point where our country itself, as well as American interests around the globe, have been and can be seriously damaged. And it's going to require a -- as the president said, a war, a major, long-range, broad-based sustained effort to see that this does not damage our way of life. KING: What about the surprise? Were you as surprised as everyone, Mr. Secretary, at the lack of intelligence here -- four planes taken, three succeed in their missions, and if not for the heroics, there might have been a fourth success?

RUMSFELD: Larry, I guess I've kind of stopped being surprised in my life. I expect what people call surprises.

You know, there's a saying that says that there are known knowns, there are things we know we know; there are known unknowns, that is to say things we know that we don't know, but we at least know we don't know them; and then there are unknown unknowns, the things we don't know we don't know. And those are the dangerous ones.

And the world is a big place. There are an awful lot of people, there's an awful lot of locations, and it is physically impossible to have intelligence that will enable you to know everything going on on this globe. And a terrorist can attack at any time, in any place, using any technique.

It's not possible to defend every time in every place against every technique. That's why the president is so on the mark that we have to go after and root out the terrorists and those who are harboring those terrorists. That's the only way that problem can be dealt with.

KING: And how -- just a couple more moments -- how do we define retaliation? Do we retaliate through legal means? Do we retaliate through an armed force? What is the definition in your head of retaliation?

RUMSFELD: Larry, I don't think of it as retaliation. I don't think of it as punishment. I think of it as self-defense.

The United States of America has every right to defend itself, and that is what it is about. It is consciously saying that countries and entities and people who actively oppose the United States and damage our interests by acts of violence, acts of war, are our enemies, and they are people and organizations and entities and states that we have every right to defend ourselves against.

And that is what this is about, it is to protect the freedom and the way of life of the American people.

KING: Self-defense?

RUMSFELD: Yes, sir.

KING: Is bin Laden definitely near or at the top of this list?

RUMSFELD: There is not question but Osama bin Laden has been for many years now, by his own pronouncements, anti-West, anti-U.S., anti- a number of regimes in the Arab world. He has a very well-financed network. At the right moment, the president and the United States government will decide what it intends to do by way of characterizing countries or characterizing individuals like Osama bin Laden and whether or not, in our judgment, they have or do not have a direct relationship to this activity, but that time has not come.

KING: And any comments on the Capitol Hill evacuation earlier?

RUMSFELD: No. I really don't. I've been in and around government for a long time, and I've seen bomb threats in buildings that I've occupied many, many times. As a matter of fact, we had one here at the Pentagon this morning at, I believe, 7:00 or something. And it is not unusual. We learn to live with these things, and we come back to work and go about our business.

KING: And those military planes flying around Washington and New York, that will continue?

RUMSFELD: We have called down the intercept aircraft and the AWACS from across the country, as commercial aviation started up today, I believe at 11:00 Eastern Time. We have continued to fly some so-called CAP aircraft in the Washington-New York corridor, and we have not -- I have not made a decision as to when I will call that down.

And we do, however, have interceptors on strip alert, 15-minute alert, across the country on some 26 bases. And so, we've got an awful lot of men and women who are doing a great job.

KING: Thanks, Mr. Secretary. Always good seeing you. Hope next time it's under better circumstances.

RUMSFELD: Thank you very much, Larry.


KING: We'll have some compelling survivor stories in a moment. Here's what a portion of what President Bush had to say this morning.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF The UNITED STATES: Through the tears of sadness, I see an opportunity. And make no mistake about it, this nation is sad. But we're also tough and resolute, and now is an opportunity to do generations a favor by coming together and whipping terrorism, hunting it down, finding it and holding them accountable.


KING: You're watching a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be with you live throughout the weekend, by the way, and in a little while Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton will join us.

Right now let's go to New York. Standing by are Brian and Jeanne Monaghan. Their 21-year-old son, also named Brian, is missing in the World Trade Center. John Genovese, his brother Steve is missing at the World Trade Center. Steve worked as a trader for Cantor Fitzgerald, on the 104th floor. And Lenny and Leona Zeplin, their son Mark is missing as well, and he also worked for Cantor Fitzgerald.

Let's start with Brian and Jeanne. I understand, Brian, this was the second day your son was on the job?


KING: And when did you last -- did you hear from him at all that morning, Jeanne -- or -- either one?

JEANNE MONAGHAN, SON MISSING AT WTC: Yes, I did. He called me at 9:00 and told me that the building next door to him just exploded, and it was -- and I said, "what do you mean, exploded?" And he said, "flames are coming out, people are on the roof, I got to go." And he hung up, and that was the last I heard from him.

KING: And then we have heard, Brian, that he could have -- what -- he was going to leave building two and then went back in to volunteer?

B. MONAGHAN: Well, the story that we got, Larry, was one of the girls that he was with, they were going down to the stairs. He was with them. They got -- she made it to the 78th floor with him and his partner, Maurice (ph). And when she got out the building, they were asking for volunteers, and when she turned around, he was gone. So apparently, he either went back into the building or he stayed in the building to try to help.

KING: And who, Jeanne, if anyone, gives you any information about him, if at all?

J. MONAGHAN: I haven't gotten really any information. I have checked lists, I've called hospitals, but it's still -- everything is unknown.

KING: Are you going to go to Bellevue tomorrow? What's at Bellevue?

J. MONAGHAN: Bellevue has another list they put up. They seem to update the list every day, they say. So tomorrow I'll just go back downtown again.

KING: What kind of a boy is your son, Brian?

B. MONAGHAN: He's a happy fellow. He's a great kid. Everybody that knows him likes him. He's always got a smile on his face, as you can see by his pictures. I've never heard anybody say anything bad about him. He's a good kid.

KING: Jeanne, is he the kind of kid that would run back in to help?

J. MONAGHAN: Yes, he would.

KING: Now, we wish you the best.

J. MONAGHAN: Thank you.

B. MONAGHAN: Thank you.

KING: Brian and Jeanne Monaghan.

Now joining us is John Genovese, his brother Steve is missing as well at the World Trade Center. Steve worked on the 104th floor, he was a trader for Cantor Fitzgerald. John, when did you last talk to Steve?

JOHN GENOVESE, BROTHER MISSING AT WTC: I did not speak to him on Tuesday morning. He actually left a message with his wife, Shelly, right after the first plane hit. He said, he was just going to try and evacuate the building as soon as he could.

KING: Is he your younger brother or older brother?

GENOVESE: He is a year younger, Larry.

KING: He left a message for his wife, right?

GENOVESE: That is correct.

KING: Do you know what he said?

GENOVESE: He said, "Shelly, I think the building just got hit by a plane or a bomb or something like that. And I'm going to -- I have to get out of here, I have to leave as soon as I can."

KING: John, what do you do, by the way?

GENOVESE: I'm also a Nasdaq trader for JP Morgan Securities.

KING: Do you work nearby?

GENOVESE: Yes, I do. I work on 60 Wall Street, which is roughly three or four blocks away from the World Trade Center.

KING: How did you learn of what was going on and when did you first fear for Steve?

GENOVESE: Actually, somebody in my trading department, Larry, came over to me and said, "something really bad just happened at the World Trade Center." And then we put on the TV and actually saw what happened. I tried to reach him by phone, and usually his trading department picks up the phone on the first or second ring. When it rang seven or eight times, I knew something bad happened.

KING: You feared the worst almost immediately?

GENOVESE: Absolutely.

KING: And this had to all be incomprehensible to you, right, John?

GENOVESE: Yes, but Steve has been through this actually in 1993, when the first bombing happened. He actually made it down 104 flights and was safe. And I thought it was -- the same result was going to happen this time around.

KING: Did you ever worry about him working in that building, especially after what happened years ago?

GENOVESE: Yes, I did.

KING: How is his wife, Shelly, holding up?

GENOVESE: She is doing great. She is doing the best she can. We're surrounded by friends and family, and we're just all pulling together.

KING: And are you still checking with hot lines and hospitals, still keeping hope going?

GENOVESE: Larry, I have called many hot lines, I must have walked 20 miles yesterday going between St. Vincent's, Bellevue and checking lists at every hospital, and just not losing the faith.

KING: One can only imagine what you're going through, John.

GENOVESE: It's tough.

KING: We wish you the best.

GENOVESE: Thank you very much.

KING: And now joining us, Lenny and Leona Zeplin. Their son Mark is missing at the World Trade Center. Mark is 33 years old. He also worked for Cantor Fitzgerald. Leona, when did you last hear from Mark?

LEONA ZEPLIN, SON MISSING IN WTC: I actually spoke to Mark the day before the incident. I did not hear from him the morning of the tragedy. I found that out when I called my daughter-in-law, just casually, and she was screaming and she said a friend just told her that something went into the World Trade Center, right near Mark's office.

And I started to cry and I turned on the TV, and I just couldn't imagine such a tragedy happening. And when I saw where it hit and I knew where his office was located, immediately I just -- I just lost it. And really didn't sleep. And then, the next day, we have been in the city and we have been in the city today, checking lists, going from place to place, just doing whatever we can to find out if anyone knows of his whereabouts or who spoke to him in his last moments.

And even just to meet somebody, to speak to anyone who is going through the same experiences we are in -- that knew Mark and Cantor Fitzgerald. I know his daughter-in-law would like that...

KING: To make a connection.

LEONA ZEPLIN: To make the connection. Because we're devastated.

KING: Lenny, where were you?

LENNY ZEPLIN, SON MISSING IN WTC: I was in my school. I'm a principle, Larry. And I received a notice from my wife that the plane had hit the building, and I was in shock. I ran home through the Rockaways (ph) with my car and picked up my wife. And we moved from there.

KING: Is Mark your only child?

LENNY ZEPLIN: No, we have a daughter named Joslin who is a speech therapist in Manhattan.

KING: The firm he worked for -- how long was he with Cantor Fitzgerald? they've really been hit the worst, I guess, as a firm.

LEONA ZEPLIN: He was there about five and a half years.

KING: Were you ever concerned, Lenny, at all about him being on such a high floor in such a building like that?

LENNY ZEPLIN: Quite truthfully, Larry, I never thought of it. I always was secure, he was happy, he loved his firm, and he loved his job and we never thought that something as monstrous as this was going to happen.

KING: So what are you doing now? Do you do as the others have done, go around the hospitals, go on Internet? What do you do?

LENNY ZEPLIN: Well, that's part of the story. We went around yesterday to all the hospitals, we've checked all the hospitals in New Jersey, and we went to the Chelsey Pier, and then we were just about finished at 5:00 when we decided to go on the Internet. And when we went on the Internet, on, through Microsoft, we saw my son's name listed on the Internet as a survivor. And we were shocked that he was on the Internet. It said 16:42, the time. Fine condition. It gave us a case number.

And we were elated, we were not going to leave New York until -- but it didn't tell us what hospital or where he was. So we ran around, we ran around, we finally ended up at the Pierre Hotel with -- where Cantor Fitzgerald has a staging section to notify everyone. And they said that list was erroneous, that list was a fraud, there were no members. We don't have any of those our members on that list. We haven't heard of any from Cantor Fitzgerald that was on that list.

So I was really very, very down. I waited until 8:30, until they were going to broadcast the names of the hospitals associated with the victims. It never came. I ran home with my wife, we went on the Internet. My son's name was still on. There was a different time, a different case number. I wrote to the person who was in charge of that list, and he sent it back to me, a message saying he was sorry, there were errors on the list, he doesn't know where my son is. And I asked to validate the list, where he got -- I still don't know where he got my son's name from.

KING: What a tragedy.

LEONA ZEPLIN: I mean it's bad enough...

KING: Your hopes were as high as possible? LEONA ZEPLIN: Right we were elated and hysterical with -- in a positive, just feeling terrific. And then it was almost worse because then we went really down to ground zero in terms of our own emotions because we just could not believe that he would survive. We even said, gee, this is going to be the story of the century, how he did get down and we were so thrilled. We were just doing whatever we could to find him. And obviously, it was just worse for us.

KING: Thank you, Lenny, Leona, we wish you every good wish, and remind our viewers that anyone looking for people missing in these attacks can e-mail photos to,

This, the night vigil continues. This is at Union Square area, around 14th street in Manhattan. Joining us now here in Los Angeles is another devastated gentleman. He is Michael Cherkasky, he is president and CEO of Kroll, Incorporated, the risk consulting company. Seven years ago that company was hired by the Port Authority to assess the risk and security at the World Trade Center, and at area airports.

Michael is a former prosecutor. He prosecuted John Gotti. And he lost in that accident the former FBI agent John O'Neal who you recently hired, right?

MICHAEL CHERKASKY, CEO, KROLL: We recently placed him at the Port Authority.


CHERKASKY: To, in fact, head their security. And it is absolutely devastating to have us consult with them, the Port Authority and to try to put in great security and a client who was conscious about its obligations to put in security and to protect its people, and to protect its clients and to have this devastating attack occur, and to fail to be able to do anything about it.

KING: In all your security planning, and that's your business, right? CHERKASKY: That's our business.

KING: Did you ever think of anything like this?

CHERKASKY: You think about things, but don't think about the stacatto attacks that occurred here, you know, one, two, three, you try to take the punch. Concentric circles of security that you try to plan for, you try to do assessments, you try to do that kind of concentric circles.

But to be able to be prepared for this, Mr. O'Neal, who was one of the world's experts in terrorism.

KING: He was on the show once.

CHERKASKY: Had worked in and understood these kind of terrorist activities. We could locally plan. We think O'Neal would have been proud of our planning.

KING: Where was he?

CHERKASKY: He was actually in the first tower that was struck fairly high up, and we were planning to have a meeting with that group at 9:30 that day, with some of our people.

KING: Was anything learned from that first attack years ago?

CHERKASKY: Well, what was learned were obviously lessons forgotten, Larry, unfortunately.

KING: Like?

CHERKASKY: Lessons of vigilance. Unfortunately, maybe we only lost six people that day. But we learned about this group, we learned what they were willing to do. We learned about the cell nature of it. We forgot those lessons. We didn't have good intelligence. We had good local planning at the Port Authority. But it didn't do any good.

KING: Was it also a failure of your company?

CHERKASKY: Well, we don't think it was a failure of our company, or of the port. We don't think that, you know, there have been conversations about how do you get people out of there quicker? Could we have gotten people out of the south tower quicker? There are some discussions about people who were told to stay still.

KING: Or go back in.

CHERKASKY: Or go back in, but there was an assessment phase. No one knew the second jet was going to strike. In fact, in the assessment phase, the danger of falling debris from that first tower very well could have been the greatest danger, so that you couldn't presume that a second jet was going to hit, you just couldn't presume it.

KING: Do you know how those people who were told back up, got those reports?

CHERKASKY: Well, we have heard it was on PAs. One of the things was unfortunately the brain center of the Port Authority, security was taken out in that first strike. We believe in fact there was good assessment going on about what, in fact, do you do in those 25 minutes or so.

KING: Is complacency, as time goes on, human?

CHERKASKY: It is absolutely human, but it's not professional. The complacency that we all had as security experts or intelligence, or law enforcement, or military has, is not acceptable. We knew we had this enemy and we had to take more than local preventive actions. Unfortunately we didn't learn the lessons of '93.

KING: How are you reacting personally to this?

CHERKASKY: I am absolutely devastated. Every day this week I have, in fact, cried because I see the stories you have said here. In fact it is our job to have the right stuff and prevent this stuff. I spent most of my life trying to do that. And to have in fact had this kind of failure, I'm personally devastated.

KING: Have you talked to officials at the World Trade Center?

CHERKASKY: We have people down there. We're talking to the officials down there, we're talking to the Port Authority. They're devastated. They think and we think they have done everything they could have done. I don't blame the structural engineers, I don't blame the assessment people.

What happened here, we believe, was more than a local failure. There was no local failure.

KING: Port Authority covers a lot of areas. Are you worried about others?

CHERKASKY: Absolutely. Anyone who knows these, the bin Laden group or these groups understand, this is not the end of this. We cannot be terrorize this. We are in this war, but this is not the end. This is in fact a group that is bent on killing Americans. It did it in Africa it did it in Europe, it is going to do it again.

KING: Your expertise is security.


KING: That's supposed to be the American expertise. So how did this fail? How did the American intelligence fail, in your opinion?

CHERKASKY: I think we were fighting a war that was past. We were fighting the last war. We weren't fighting the new war, we were fighting the Cold War. And we had -- our devices, our services were in fact, geared to that. The intelligence services, we weren't doing the kind of things we had to get in -- our hands dirty.

KING: As Secretary Rumsfeld said the unknown unknown.

CHERKASKY: The unknown unknown. And we didn't understand the disease. We should have understood the disease in '93. We should understand it -- it is hard to recognize a disease if you haven't seen it. We should have seen it in '93, unfortunately we didn't recognize the disease.

Now we have, but we lost thousands of people.

KING: No one could have said thought, that one day, three, four planes will be taken and flown in to these buildings.

CHERKASKY: It wouldn't have been a good novel. It would have been too extreme.

KING: Would have been turned down.

CHERKASKY: Would have been turned down. KING: Good luck, Michael, when are you going back to New York?

CHERKASKY: As soon as I can get there.

KING: Michael Cherkasky, president and CEO of Kroll, incorporated. I spoke a little while ago with New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, a very short time ago. And our first question was, was she concerned about the evacuation of the Capitol today.


SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Well, Larry, I had already voted so that I had left the Capitol. I was on my way back to the Russell Building so that I could talk with you tonight. And I was very concerned, but I quickly learned that there wasn't any real basis for concern. But we're taking every precaution we can, and that was one of the necessary ones.

KING: The president's going to your state tomorrow. Are you going too?

CLINTON: Yes, I am. I went to the White House earlier this afternoon. We had an excellent discussion. I met first in the Oval Office with the president, my colleague, Senator Schumer, the two senators from Virginia. We pledged our support. We received a briefing from the president.

And I was delighted to also learn that the president would support the request that Senator Schumer and I have made so that New York gets the resources that we need to deal with this extraordinary tragedy.

Then we had a larger meeting in the Cabinet Room with representatives and senators from a number of states. The president was resolute, determined. I felt very positive about the meeting.

KING: Will you be traveling with him?

CLINTON: Yes, I will. I'll be going with the president back to New York where I was yesterday with the governor and the mayor after we have the national prayer service at the National Cathedral.

KING: You know, you -- were in those seats. Sandy Berger told the Associated Press today that your administration -- the Clinton administration weighed a military strike against bin Laden in the final days of that presidency. What can you gather this must be like?

CLINTON: Well, I told the president today -- and I have publicly stated this, Larry -- that I do have some understanding of the extraordinary burdens that any president bears. And a time like this just magnifies them immeasurably.

This is a different kind of war. And make no mistake about it, we are at war. But we're at war against an enemy that doesn't have a capital, doesn't have a state. When Pearl Harbor was bombed, we knew where to look and we knew what we needed to do to win.

So this is a more difficult time. But I'm absolutely confident we are up to meeting this challenge.

During the years that my husband was in the White House, you will recall we did launch an attack on some of Osama bin Laden's assets in Afghanistan and we were successful in a limited way with respect to some of the personnel and equipment. But we were not successful in eradicating him and his network from the terrorist activities that they foment.

So this I know, and the president knows. Nobody is in any way misled about the profound nature of this challenge. But we have to be up to it, and we are up to it. And I'm going to support the president in the actions he takes.

KING: And is your husband, as well, fully in support?

CLINTON: Absolutely. You know, Bill was in Australia when this happened. The president sent a plane to bring him back. I think they really took measures to secure all of our former presidents, but particularly my husband and the president's father, because both of them had taken action against certain organizations and individuals. So I was very grateful for that.

So Bill is back home. He's in New York. And he has made it very clear, both privately in his conversations and his public statements, that he is 100 percent behind the president.

KING: I know the president's doing everything he can for you and your state. Are you giving him carte blanche as to what he can do internationally?

CLINTON: Well, I'm certainly supporting his authority to take those actions that are necessary on behalf of our country and our homeland defense. There is, as we speak, an effort under way to draft an appropriate resolution that will express the sense of the Senate.

I've been seeking the advice of some of the senior members who have been around here a while, who were part of the Gulf War resolution, and even going back further than that. So I'm confident that we will come up with an agreement that will give the president what he needs.

KING: What are you saying to those who ask you in defense in the like of how far we go with this?

CLINTON: Well, I think that we have to clearly define what we know about the threats, what we know about the perpetrators, what we know about those who harbor terrorists.

I was very pleased that the president, in his speech to the country, said that it's not only America's goal to track down and hold accountable those who carried out this dastardly attack, but also to serve notice on anyone who harbors terrorists. And I would go even further, as the president has in our discussion today. We are going to be looking at those who finance terrorism; those who give any aid or comfort whatsoever, not only governments, but institutions, individuals, organizations wherever they might be found.

KING: And finally, what do you say to those New Yorkers who are still missing loved-ones?

CLINTON: Well, you know, we're only beginning to see the depths of anguish and pain that will be visible in the days and weeks ahead. We don't know yet how many people will never go home again, Larry.

We do know that we have orphans and widows and widowers. We have mothers and fathers who have suffered what no parent should ever suffer, the loss of a child. We've got a lot of hard work.

You know, when we think about responding to this attack, of course we think first and foremost about defending ourselves and tracking down those who did it. We think about the hard work of rescue and reconstruction and rebuilding. But let's not forget that we have a work of compassion ahead of us.

KING: Thank you, Senator.

CLINTON: Thank you, Larry.


KING: Before we meet some other compelling stories, let's check in with our Union Square vigil going on right now at Union Square in New York. And there is Senti Toy and her daughter, Numee (ph).

Senti, what brought you to the vigil tonight?

SENTI TOY, UNION SQUARE VIGIL: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

KING: What brought you to the vigil tonight?

TOY: Because I do not believe in violence and I would like the world to be more full of peace and love.

KING: Do you live in Manhattan?

TOY: Yes, I do.

KING: And how old is little Numee, there?

TOY: Numee is 4 1/2.

KING: If world should be full of peace and love, but what happened wasn't peace or love...

TOY: No, it wasn't.

KING: Do you think we should retaliate? TOY: No, that's why we're here, because we do not want to retaliate.

KING: So what are you saying to the government?

TOY: That we should not act with violence, but instead with love, because violence will only lead to more violence, and that's not good.

KING: Thank you, Senti. Good luck, Numee. Senti Toy and Numee at the Union Square vigil.

Joining us now in Los Angeles are Bradley and Debra Burlingame. Their brother Charles was the pilot of American Airline Flight 77, scheduled from Dulles to L.A. It crashed into the Pentagon.

In New York, David Theall and Charles Mahnken. David and Carl Mahnken in Washington. David and Carl are civilians working for Army Public Affairs. Both have seen active military duty, and both are survivors of the attack on the Pentagon. First, we'll start with Bradley and Debra.

Charles was the oldest of the brothers? Tell me about your late captain brother, Bradley.

BRADLEY BURLINGAME, BROTHER WAS FLIGHT 77 PILOT: We called him chick, that was his nickname.

KING: Chick.

BURLINGAME: He was Charles the third, and an Annapolis graduate. He started flying a couple years after he graduated from Annapolis. He's been flying for 30 years. He was a Navy fighter pilot. And even after he left the Navy, he served in the Naval reserve and, ironically, worked for many years in the Pentagon in the Naval reserve, with his Naval colleagues.

KING: He worked where he died?


DEBRA BURLINGAME, BROTHER WAS FLIGHT 77 PILOT: Well, we don't know that his office was actually there, because they have been renovating the Pentagon for the last two years.

KING: But he'd been at the Pentagon.

D. BURLINGAME: Many times.

KING: How did you first learn of this, Debra?

D. BURLINGAME: Well, it was surreal, actually, because I was asleep at 6:00 in the morning, and my...

KING: In California?

D. BURLINGAME: No, here in Los Angeles.

KING: Yes, in California. You were in California?

D. BURLINGAME: Yes, in California. And we have another brother in Pennsylvania, and his wife, who is a very, very dear friend of mine, Anin (ph), called me at 6:00 in the morning and she said, "I'm sorry to wake you up, but you've got to go turn on the television set right now. A plane just crashed in to the World Trade Center." And she said, "I was watching it, and another plane crashed in, minutes ago."

And I quick, rushed, turn it on and...

KING: Not thinking of your brother at all, right?

D. BURLINGAME: Well, no, because...


D. BURLINGAME: No, because you're not thinking sensibly. And I was thinking well, this is New York, my brother flies out of Dulles and he's usually going to the West Coast. So he wouldn't ever be up in New York airspace.

KING: So you were watching in horror.

D. BURLINGAME: And I'm watching in horror. And it also appeared, they were already replaying the second strike, and it didn't look like the kind of plane my brother flew. It looked too small. If you can imagine an airplane that big dwarfed by those towers.

KING: Then what?

D. BURLINGAME: So Anin said, "You don't think that could be Chick, do you?

And I said, "No, no. But this is horrible." And I was immediately thinking, those poor pilots, those poor pilots, because of course, pilots always say they are the first at the scene of any accident, being up there in the cockpit. They see horrific things, you know. And they don't live to tell the tale, so I was just devastated. She was crying, I was crying.

Brad called me. Oh, and then I saw the report on the Pentagon, because that happened maybe 20 minutes later. An NBC reporter saying there's been a bomb explosion of some kind on the west side of the Pentagon.

KING: And you called, you knew?

B. BURLINGAME: I knew. I had received a phone call within 60 minutes from a colleague of my brother's, who had already joined his wife at their house to inform her. American pilots and all airline pilots -- I'm sure the United pilots, this was the same scene at their households as well -- are close-knit families.

KING: He told you on the phone?

B. BURLINGAME: Chick's friend Tom called, and I, like Debra, had been watching the television. I had an eerie feeling. My wife asked what was going on, and Tom called me. As soon as I heard his voice, I knew. And of course, you know the...

KING: And you told Debra?

B. BURLINGAME: I called my sister, and she called the rest of the family. It was a terrible moment.

D. BURLINGAME: And he called me. He was screaming into the phone, And of course, you know, I used to be a flight attendant many, many years ago. So in addition to my brother, we really feel a connection with airline people, and have a lot of airline friends, apart from my brother. And so we were -- we're devastated to see these scenes like this, and this is just an extraordinary scene.

So I didn't know what he was saying. He was screaming. And then I caught him -- I caught the word Chick. "It's Chick." And there's no words to describe, you know, you hear crime victims' families being told. This is a murder scene, this is a mass murder. And it's just, it's incomprehensible.

KING: Your mother died last year.

D. BURLINGAME: Ten months ago.

KING: Your father is buried at Arlington.


KING: Chick has a daughter from a first marriage?

D. BURLINGAME: That's right.

KING: Two stepsons from a current marriage.

D. BURLINGAME: Yes, yes.

KING: How is the wife handling all this?

B. BURLINGAME: Sherry (ph) is upset, naturally. Very, very upset. But the best thing is, and it's quite comforting for us, is that she's got her family around her. She has people from American Airlines around her, .

KING: Any of you planning to go the Washington?

B. BURLINGAME: We're trying to put together a memorial next week. It's difficult. There's so much going on.

KING: Where did Chick live?

B. BURLINGAME: Chick lived in Oak Hill, which is not too far from the Dulles area. And he was actually planning part of a 30th year reunion at the United States Naval Academy next weekend.

KING: There will be a burial at Arlington?

B. BURLINGAME: We hope so.


KING: With any remains that are found, right?

D. BURLINGAME: Well, he will be interred in some way. And of course, we are assuming he's entitled to be buried at Arlington, because he was a 29-year veteran.

But the thing is, even with my father, who was buried there with honors right near the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, we had to wait for almost three weeks for his burial, because the World War II generation is dying in, you know, record numbers. And you wait if you have any kind of ceremony.

KING: Angry, Bradley?

B. BURLINGAME: My emotions are across the board. I'm sad, I'm in disbelief. Yes, I'm angry. I -- if I could find the people who did this, I would sacrifice my life to do something to them.

KING: Debra?

D. BURLINGAME: Someone asked me if I've been going to church. Well, there's been too much happening for me to have that quiet time to be able to do that. I feel a tremendous responsibility to my brother to take care of certain things. But the idea of going to church would seem so insincere to me right now, because our religion is about forgiveness. And it's not in me right now, no.

KING: My best to both of you.

B. BURLINGAME: Thank you very much.

KING: Anything we can do...

D. BURLINGAME: Thanks very much.

KING: Bradley and Debra Burlingame.

Now joining us in Washington are two gentlemen who survived the sadness of the death of their brother. They are David Theall and Carl Mahnken.

Now, David, we'll start with you. What do you do at the Pentagon?

DAVID THEALL, PENTAGON ATTACK SURVIVOR: I work for the Army Public Affairs. I'm a public affairs specialist in the Pentagon.

KING: And, Carl, what do you do? CARL MAHNKEN, PENTAGON ATTACK SURVIVOR: I'm also a public affairs specialist. Dave worked 25 feet behind me when the blast occurred.

KING: So you two work right near each other?

THEALL: We do. We work in the same office, separated by a drywall wall.

KING: What happened, David?

THEALL: At the moment of impact, Larry, it was just -- if you have ever been around an artillery round -- I am a former soldier, Carl is a reserve officer -- and I liken it to being downrange during training when an artillery round hits the ground. I mean, there's just a certain whoosh that you hear. And at the moment of impact, there's a vacuum that occurs that just simply sucks the air right out of your lungs.

I happened to be talking to a friend at the time, who was jokingly telling me, you know, the Pentagon is probably next, because she had called to ask if I knew about the World Trade Center, and of course we did. The Pentagon was abuzz with the news of that. And she jokingly said the Pentagon is probably next, you ought to get out. And we shared some laughs over that. And then she said again, "Please get out."

And it was at that moment that the walls just came in on me. And I knew immediately, holy heavens, we are under attack. And I credit my friend with buying me a couple of extra seconds. When I finally landed, about 25 feet away and in another office, the shock of being under attack was already over. I mean, I had already processed that information. Before I took flight, I knew, we're under attack. So when I landed, there was no shock. I knew we had been hit, let's move on.

KING: And, Carl, what are your remembrances of two of days ago?

MAHNKEN: My wife, Hope, had called me. And, again, we knew about the attack that was taking place in New York. We saw the plane that had hit the second tower. I went back to my desk and was working at my PC. Again, the sound was just like a huge explosion. The tearing of metal, the ripping of boards, the walls collapsing. And I was in my chair and my PC came, hit me in my face -- I have a bruise on my head. But the force was so tremendous. And the thing is, it shakes you, it goes right through you, it shakes you the core.

Personally, I said, it can shake your metal, it can shake your physical, but my spiritual did not shake. And my profound faith in God, my family, my extended family, my church family, my heart goes out to those people.

KING: You would understand, Carl, the Burlingames not feeling that way at the moment?

MAHNKEN: Pardon me? KING: You can understand our previous guests not quite feeling that way?

MAHNKEN: Yes, and again, I cannot personally get in that position to know how they feel. But my heart does go out to them. My prayers go for comfort, and just to know that they've been touched. I was watching the news last night and the story about the 11-year-old Rodney Dickens, it just -- I was in tears. And there's a magic there. It touches you.

But it touched me personally. Again, you know when you get hit, we both knew what it was, and we both knew we had to get out of there.

KING: We're looking at a picture of you right after that attack. David, do you feel lucky?

THEALL: I do feel lucky, and it's funny that you ask that question, because I was just about to tell you when you were asking whether or not we shared the same emotions with the previous guest. Carl and I are the lucky ones. We escaped that day with our life. It was hell there for a couple of minutes, getting out of the Pentagon, but the bottom line is, we escaped with our lives.

And I hope you will understand, when Carl and I want to express our concern for all of those people who still have loved ones buried in the rubble, both in the Pentagon and in New York, and our prayers are with those people. And of course, our support and our concern are with those rescue workers and all of the hundreds of thousands of volunteers who are just coming to the site and seeing whatever they can do.

KING: Because their brother died a few feet from you.

THEALL: Indeed, he did. I haven't reached the anger point yet, to tell you the truth. I walked out of that Pentagon, and for the last couple of days, there's just -- you go through every emotion there is. But I just haven't hit the anger emotion yet. Frankly, I'm still just in a peaceful state.

KING: Carl, are you back at work?

MAHNKEN: Yes, Larry, I am. In fact, this morning, when I walked in about 6:30, when I was walking up there -- actually, it was later, and I was in the south parking. There were three columns of people that were moving into the building, and I had a chance to look at almost all the faces that were facing me. And I saw some solemn faces, but I saw some faces of determination, faces that were smiling, things that you normally don't see because we live in a very hectic society.

But we are reaching out to neighbors. We need to reach out and touch each other, and just hold on to people and let them know that this, too, shall pass, and just to remember those that still have people unaccounted for and are still missing.

KING: David, do you know anyone who died? THEALL: I do not know anyone who died. We had some people whom I knew who were listed as missing there for a while, but eventually they were all accounted for. I do have some friends who had friends and coworkers who were unaccounted for.

KING: Right.

THEALL: I have to tell you, Larry, that it was absolutely amazing to watch, when Carl and I came out of the Pentagon. And there was chaos there for a little while, as everyone just tried to figure out what was going on, and we started triaging the victims. But it was absolutely amazing to watch the order that came out of that chaos with the military. I mean, you saw civilians and Marines and airmen and soldiers and Navy personnel who just instinctively knew that there was something that had to be done, that there was a very big job here that had to be done, that had to be accomplished.

And the natural leaders just sort of came to the fore. And it was just absolutely amazing to watch. It allowed people like Carl and I, who were tending to the victims, to fall into a support role with the doctors and other emergency technicians who had just come on the scene.

KING: It is amazing, Carl, what people, what the human condition can do under stress, right?

MAHNKEN: Yes, it is. Walking back to Dave's apartment, we walked about six miles. And we were just running on adrenaline. And as we were walking back, there was a point where we looked up, and on a building was the United States flag. It had not been at half-mast or half staff. It was still flying high and free. And we said, "That's what it's about," our American resolve, the leadership we saw on the ground.

We saw Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld on the ground, and we looked up, and we were busy, but knew that he was doing his assessment, and he was looking there to see, you know, touching people, getting involved, so he could say, this is -- the situation is under control.

KING: Thank you both very much. David Theall and Carl Mahnken, employees of Army Public Affairs, civilians at the Pentagon.

Now to the security angle. By the way, I would remind you again, LARRY KING LIVE will be with you every night, including Saturday and Sunday, as long as this takes.

We now welcome James Woolsey. He is in our bureau in Washington, the former director of the CIA. He was the director from '93 through '95. And a return visit in Los Angeles with Brian Jenkins, terrorism expert, consultant to governments and private sector.

James, was this a failure of your former agency?

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, it was a failure of the whole U.S. government, in a sense, because although we, both the foreign intelligence and the FBI did a good job of stopping these terrorist incidents that were cooking up around the time of Y2K, a year and a half ago, anything like this that gets through, it's a failure of the CIA in detecting things that it might have been able to detect abroad, and it's a failure for the FBI in not having picked up things like terrorist cells in Boston or the wrong people taking airline pilots training and the like. The system failed, clearly.

KING: Brian, should we still be concerned?

BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM EXPERT: We certainly should be concerned. I mean, we have a demonstration here where these people, perhaps 40, perhaps 50, were in this country up to 14, 15 months before, planning this operation, managing to do so without discovery. And therefore, that must lead to us the conclusion that potentially -- this is not a prediction, but potentially there are still cells somewhere in the world, perhaps somewhere in the United States, that are, as we speak, planning further terrorist attacks.

KING: Isn't the problem, James, well-armed, well-financed terrorists, whether they be Bin Laden or others, have the edge? They know what they're going to do, and in some cases, are willing to die for what they're going to do? That's a tough enemy.

WOOLSEY: They have a substantial edge in an open society, such as ours. And that's, of course, a big part of the problem, is that we have to fight them without losing our civil liberties. And they have a substantial edge once they get into the country, and can take advantage of all the freedom of movement and anonymity and all the rest that Americans crave as part of our freedoms. We are a very lucrative target, in many ways, for terrorists.

KING: Now, Brian, is this is twofold now? Is it prevention and get those who did it?

JENKINS: I think we have several things that we have to address. First of all, we have to address the immediate needs of the investigation, not only an investigation of who actually participated in the attack on September 11th, but any other cells that may be out there planning further attacks. That's a vital thing to do.

Second, we have to ensure that we this occasion to conduct a wholesale review of the security measures in effect at commercial aviation, in other places, in order not to permit this kind of a thing to occur again, while realistically understanding that we cannot prevent every terrorist attack.

No. 3, we have to certainly do whatever we can to bring those who are responsible for this to justice, whether in this country, where they will face our criminal justice system, if there are survivors to this thing, and abroad, whatever we need to do to reckon with them.

And then, finally, we have to demonstrate that this type of attack on the United States will not be productive, will not be tolerated.

KING: Do we, somewhere along the line here, James, in your opinion, have to give up some of those civil liberties? WOOLSEY: I certainly hope not. What we may have to give up is some time and some convenience. Air travel is certainly going to be a lot slower than it has been in the past, and perhaps more expensive. Congress today, the minority leader, Congressman Gephardt, said they were -- of the House -- said they were discussing the details of what types of national identification cards Americans should carry.

We have always balked at that sort of thing that many other countries do before, because of our concern about big government and the like. Some of those types of steps may be ones that are going to have to be taken. What we very much hope, of course, is that none of the fundamental rights are curtailed, and we have to keep that from happening.

And, Larry, let me add one point. You know, in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, the United States did a terrible thing. It locked up the Nisei Japanese Americans. And the three men who probably most responsible for that were Franklin Delanor Roosevelt, Earl Warren, who was then running for governor of California, he was attorney general, and Hugo Black, who was the Supreme Court justice who wrote the decision that upheld the actions of putting the Nisei in the concentration camps, probably the three greatest names in liberalism and civil liberties in 20th century America. So even people who care a lot about civil liberties can do awful things when the country gets scared. We need to be cautious about that.

KING: That is an important reminder. We're short on time. But, Brian, are you pessimistic, short-term?

JENKINS: I wouldn't say pessimistic or optimistic. I would say realistic. We're about to enter a very perilous period. We have gone through a terrible tragedy. Our actions may well provoke further actions. Even without our actions, there may be further actions carried out against us. We have to be realistic.

KING: What we're looking at now, by the way, as we thank James Woolsey and Brian Jenkins, are live pictures from the Pentagon, live pictures, tonight, fires still burning.

Before we meet the final guests during this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE, here are some more words from the president this morning.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think about the families, the children. I am a loving guy, and I am also someone, however, who has got a job to do, and I intend to do it. And this is a terrible moment. But this country will not relent until we have saved ourselves and others from the terrible tragedy that came upon America.


KING: You're looking at more moments from the vigil tonight at Union Scare in New York. We're going to end on an upbeat note, a good story. Joseph Burga and Theresa Grimmig join us. They are husband and wife. They are in Secaucus, New Jersey. Their young daughter, Isabel (ph), and you see her right there, was separated from their care- giver, after the home where the care-giver was evacuated. For many hours, they had no idea where she was.

How did you find her, Joseph?

JOSEPH BURGA, REUNITED WITH MISSING DAUGHTER: We talked to most of our friends and asked them to call anyone they knew who could possibly help. And we were down at Paine Webber, and everyone did what they did best, they just made phone calls and networked, and all of a sudden, we saw her name come across NBC, saying -- I probably shouldn't have mentioned it...

KING: It's OK.

She was found and just call this number. And it was a miracle, as far as we're concerned. Just amazing.

KING: Theresa, you work in midtown, right?


KING: OK. And so Isabel stays with this lady, Janet, right, in her place?

GRIMMIG: No, she lives -- she stays with Isabel in our apartment in Battery Park City, right across the street from the World Trade Center.

KING: Oh, I see. Janet comes to where you live.


KING: OK, so Janet's with Isabel. Then they what, order evacuation?

GRIMMIG: Yes, they ask everyone -- Janet was waiting in the lobby of our apartment building because she was nervous about what was going on. She was with her daughter. who had a cell phone with her and was in touch with us that way. And then they were ordered to -- they were asked to evacuate.

KING: And how did Isabel get separated from Janet, Joseph?

BURGA: Apparently what happened was, as they were leaving the building -- I think it was the first tower had collapsed. And when that had happened, there was tons of chaos and everyone started running, and as the debris was coming towards them, I think Janet possibly may have stumbled or something. But a firemen grabbed Isabel to help.

And at that moment, the debris came, and Janet had told us that you couldn't see anything in front of you, it went from daylight to night. And when it cleared, she looked around and Isabel was gone. She couldn't see Isabel, couldn't find the fireman, and she panicked. She just hysterically went to a police officer and told her what happened. And then she was forced on a boat to New Jersey.

KING: How long was she missing, Theresa?

GRIMMIG: For eight hours.

KING: Good grief! And you can't go back to your house? Are you staying in Secaucus now?

GRIMMIG: No, we're staying with my brother Mark and his wife, Lisa, and their three sons. They're keeping us for the duration.

KING: How did she hold up for eight hours?

GRIMMIG: You know, we saw pictures of her with a rescue worker in Liberty State Park, and seemed to be -- she certainly didn't seemed to be very well taken care of and fed, and no worse for wear at the end of the day.

BURGA: I guess, prior to that, you know, you do what you have to do, and at one point, you know, the business we're in, sometimes we're taught not to panic. But I'll tell you, a couple times we just were ready to lose it. And you just keep making phone calls and keep trying, keep trying until you find something out.

KING: What a great break, and I thank God for both of you, and great luck for you.

GRIMMIG: Thank you.

BURGA: Thank you very much.

KING: Thank you. Good to have with you us, Isabel, your first major television appearance. Hang tough!


KING: Say good night, Isabel.

GRIMMIG: Say bye-bye.

BURGA: Say bye-bye, Isabel. Oh, well.

KING: Bye-bye, no, Isabel is a little shy. Thank you. We'll be with you again, of course, tomorrow night. And stay tuned for a CNN special report, anchored by Aaron Brown, the newest and one of the fine members of our CNN team here.

As we leave you, here are shots of the Pentagon right now, portions of the Pentagon, still burning. I'm Larry King. See you tomorrow night. Stay tuned for Aaron Brown. Good night.



4:30pm ET, 4/16

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