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CNN Larry King Weekend
Special Edition: America's New War
Aired September 16, 2001 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've never seen that kind of evil before. But the evil doers have never seen the American people in action before either, and they're about to find out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, in the midst of prayerful remembrances, Americans prepare for a long, hard fight. Next on LARRY KING LIVE.
You will note that all of our CNN people are working seven days a week through all of this. We will be taking your phone calls tonight as well, and one other note: Among the guests tomorrow night will be President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt.
Quick headlines: The number of missing at ground zero has risen to 5,097. The United States has officially demanded to Afghanistan that it hand over Osama bin Laden, and all eyes are on Wall Street as it prepares to reopen tomorrow.
We have lots of guests tonight. We begin at the governor's mansion in St. Paul, Minnesota, with Governor Jesse Ventura, the governor of Minnesota, himself a former Navy SEAL.
The president says we're at war, how do you read that, governor?
GOV. JESSE VENTURA, MINNESOTA: Well, I agree wholeheartedly with the president, Larry, and the fact that this was a direct attack on the United States of America. And if you think back for a moment, you know, Pearl Harbor, as vicious as that was, it was still an attack against the military installation. This was attack against our total civilian populations, so I view this as even worse than Pearl Harbor.
L. KING: How about the question that you're being a veteran of one of the unique services, the Navy SEALs, about military preparedness. Are you satisfied with the United States' military capabilities?
VENTURA: Well, I can't speak for all of the military, Larry, but I just got back from my annual SEAL team reunion the third week of August out in Coronado, California, and I can assure you the Navy SEALs are ready. They are always ready. They are well prepared. They are well financed, and they are highly motivated. So, I have no worry about my old unit, and I expect the same from all the rest of the military units as well. I'm sure that they are ready, and they are in the process of being as prepared as they possibly can.
L. KING: And what, governor, in your opinion, is the retaliation, when the enemy is officially unknown?
VENTURA: Well, it's certainly going to be a different type of war, Larry. It's, as you know, as in Pearl Harbor, we knew who the enemy was. But I think thorough our intelligence gathering, we'll have a very good idea of who the enemy is here, and I think we really need to look at it as what the president has talked about, that the enemy is all the terrorists, because we can't leave any stone unturned in this. We have to go full force, in my opinion, and do the job that needs to get done. Otherwise, we could face other retaliations like the one we just last Tuesday.
L. KING: So, therefore, a lot of intelligence work on the -- on America's part and a lot of patience required of the citizenry?
VENTURA: Exactly. We want to know who we're going after. And it's going to require intelligence on the part of all of our allies, because the unique thing I saw about this -- this wasn't an attack just on the United States of America. If you look at the casualty list, you see triple-digit casualties for multiple number of countries throughout the world. This was an attack on the entire free world, and we must respond accordingly, with the full force effort from all of the free world, as our allies standing as one.
L. KING: Now, despite the increased obvious amount of patriotism, we're told that there has not been any great rush of enlistments in the armed forces. Does that surprise you?
VENTURA: Well, I don't know. The word that I got on talk radio here was that a lot of the Vietnam veterans were calling up to see if they can re-enlist. And I believe it's a case for many of the Vietnam veterans -- this will be a war that will have the full backing of our country, which was something of course that didn't happen in Vietnam. So, you have many of those veterans really wanting and want to fell a part of what they did many years ago and be focused on something that the entire country is solemnly behind them at.
I think when push comes to shove, the young people of the United States will react the same as generations before them.
L. KING: Thank you, governor, always good seeing you.
VENTURA: Very good, Larry, I always appreciate being here.
L. KING: Wish it was under better circumstances. Governor Jesse Ventura, the governor of Minnesota.
We're going to talk with Richard King, a Red Cross volunteer. First, here's some of what President Bush said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while. And the American people must be patient. I am going to be patient. But I can assure the American people I am determined. I am not going to be distracted. I will keep my focus to make sure that not only are these brought to justice, but anybody who has been associated with them will be brought to justice.
Those who harbor terrorists will be brought to justice. It is time for us to win the first war of the 21st century decisively so that our children and our grandchildren can live peacefully into the 21st century.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: We are going to spent some moments not with Richard King, a Red Cross volunteer who has been there since last Wednesday, the day after all this happened. He has been dealing with workers coming out of all the rubble right at ground zero.
Richard, what do you do normally in life?
RICHARD KING, RED CROSS VOLUNTEER: Normally in life, Larry, I have actually retired, but normally in life I spend an awful lot of time as a Red Cross volunteer working in Rochester, New York on local fires and other local disasters in the Rochester, New York area.
L. KING: And what has it been like, Richard, dealing with these workers coming out?
R. KING: It's been depressing, Larry, to say the least, yet I really feel that we have helped them a lot. When a worker comes out from being in what I define as being "the hole" and they come back out of there after they have done their job, they are distraught. They need a shoulder to cry on in many cases.
I found myself here the first night and I am not a mental health worker, but I found myself here the first night doing that very thing, crying on my shoulders, telling me stories that would be unbelievable. They were to me at the time. But this one individual said to me, I don't know how much longer I can do this because I am so sick of finding a body part here and a body part there.
We talked for a long time. He continued to cry on my shoulder but when we were finished he said to me, thank you and thank the Red Cross for being here and helping us because if you hadn't done that I am not sure I could have ever gone back in there. I know I need to because there are people that need me in there. This is obviously when they thought that they were going to bring more out.
L. KING: Richard, are you trained psychologically to deal with this?
R. KING: I am not a mental health worker, I do not have a degree in that field at all. But I am a human services worker and have been for 35 years and have always dealt with people. I am a compassionate person and one, that I am a volunteer because I want to help people who are in trouble.
L. KING: How long are you going to stay?
R. KING: I will stay as long as it takes, Larry.
L. KING: I salute you, Richard.
R. KING: Thank you.
L. KING: Richard King, who has the -- he is a volunteer for the Red Cross. Been there since Wednesday. He says he will stay as long as it takes and he has to greet the people coming out telling him horrific stories.
Let's bring in four distinguished members of the United States Senate now, on this nightly special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. They are, in Washington, Senator Richard Shelby, Republican of Alabama, vice chairman of the select committee on intelligence. In Boston, Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.
In Washington, Senator Richard Lugar, Republican of Indiana, member if Foreign Relations and a member of the Select Committee on Intelligence. And in New York, Senator Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York.
Let's start with Senator Schumer. What is the latest from your city, Senator? The total of those missing keeps going up.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Yeah, the total goes up and as you know -- every six hours every New Yorker hears of something. I have been so busy I haven't been back to the neighborhood in which I live until yesterday. And I heard that our local school five children now have a parent and in one case both parents missing.
A local firehouse has 11 of its people missing. And so it is tough, but at the same time today I began to see New Yorkers really bouncing back and New Yorkers are resilient and we are going to bounce back. But it is a long hard slog.
L. KING: Senator Shelby, you are vice chairman of the select committee on intelligence. Intelligence needs a lot of work, does it not?
SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: Absolutely. Intelligence, which is information, is going to be the key to our fight against terrorism and there are many problems out there. There are a lot of good people in our intelligence agencies. They have had a lot of good successes but they have also had strategic failures and we can't afford that in the future.
L. KING: One of the problems, Senator, is the successes we don't learn about, right?
SHELBY: A lot of them. You probably know about a lot of them, but a lot of the people and a lot of the things they do are never made public but they do do a good job in a lot of areas. But if we're going to win this war, it's going to be protracted. The front line is information intelligence.
L. KING: Senator Kerry, from a military standpoint, and churches all across America were discussing this today, you've got to know where you're going before you go, right? You can't just retaliate to retaliate.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Absolutely not. And I was struck today by the administration's voices that were speaking out today after the meeting at Camp David. I think it's clear, especially in the comments of Secretary Rumsfeld and Vice President Cheney, that the administration understands that the purpose of this is to make the United States more secure while, simultaneously, living up to the special values that define our nation and make us different from other countries.
So we have to do this in a way that doesn't just create a lot of other innocent victims. We have to do this in a way that is particularly surgical: that targets the terrorists themselves and those who directly harbor them, specifically governments. There's a distinction between the Taliban and innocent Afghanis, many of whom are the victims of the Taliban.
And I think as long as we are willing as a nation to remember sort of what guides us in that way -- and I think we will -- then I think we'll pick the right targets.
We have to be patient. This is a long haul. And we have to manage information. We have to change the way we think about a lot of our traditional military tactics in this kind of an operation and, again, be very careful about the targeting.
But we have to do this without any wavering, and our allies have to be clear. There is no equivocation here: If you're on the side of the terrorists in any way whatsoever -- if you harbor them, if you're willing to make it easier for them to escape, if you're not willing to help us and assist us in the transfer of information or the facilitation of those military operations, then you're part of the problem. And we have to make that clear.
L. KING: Senator Lugar, Pakistan tomorrow, I think, will formally ask the Taliban to turn over bin Laden. Do you see any hope of that?
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), INDIANA: Yes, I think that's possible. And I think the importance is that the Pakistanis have reacted that way. It's a very, very tough call for them.
But I think it's emblematic of the fact that nations all over the world, those that surround Afghanistan but are NATO allies -- even Russia and China see a coincidence with us and the need to fight terrorism. This is an opportunity for American leadership and a grand strategy which encircles the terrorists.
And I applaud the Pakistanis. I think the courage, at least of that pronouncement is important. But we're going to have to be sophisticated in our support of them, because they have great difficulties.
L. KING: But you join Senator Kerry in agreeing that you're not going to see an attack somewhere tomorrow?
LUGAR: Well, I have no idea whether there will be an attack tomorrow. And that's why I applaud those FBI agents that are in the streets of America tonight, and everybody else, as a matter of fact, who are trying to ferret out the infrastructure that supported the people that hijacked the planes the other day or attempt to find others who may have other things in mind. I think that's the ground war; and it's a grisly business right here, quite apart from the grand strategy abroad.
L. KING: Senator Schumer -- who was speaking, I...
KERRY: That was John Kerry up in Massachusetts.
I just wanted to say that I agree with Dick. I'm not saying that it won't be tomorrow; I'm saying it has to be surgical and targeted. If we knew where critical people were tomorrow, we'd do what we need to do tomorrow. I simply say it has to be surgical.
L. KING: I got you. Senator Schumer, I guess we're always reactive, as most people react rather than act, but shouldn't something have been done sooner about prevention here.
SCHUMER: Yes, I think -- look, I think there is no question about it: We let the terrorist menace grow and grow. We had the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, and thank God only six people died. And then there was the Khobar Towers and the USS Cole and the embassies in East Africa.
And we basically didn't do very much, or for a few months we did, and then we didn't. You know, I had a lady come up to me in Greenwich Village today, and she said, senator -- I was busy looking at all the signs and the -- it's so touching in New York. Everywhere you go there are little posters of "Have you seen my son?" "Have you seen my wife?" "Have you seen this person?" or that.
And as I was looking at these she came up to me and said, senator, I hope we can avoid any military action. And I said, ma'am, I don't know if it will take military action, but if we have to, we must because, you know, when they bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, six lives were lost. Now we've lost 6,000.
Next time, given the fact that a small number of dedicated, evil and sophisticated people can use technology -- biological, chemical, nuclear weapons, it could be 6 million. So we have no choice. And to me the $64,000 question, Larry, is not how we do it -- I mean, we'll probably make a few mistakes along the way; we're fighting a new enemy -- but whether America has the resolve to continue to do this.
The president said to me the other day -- he said, if, you know, Americans lose interest in this; if, by the time the World Series rolls around or the Superbowl rolls around we have lost interest and we're not putting the same kind of focus that the nation put in after Pearl Harbor for unconditional surrender of the enemy, we won't succeed.
L. KING: Let me get a call in...
SCHUMER: That's the biggest challenge. That, to me, is the biggest challenge we fact, not the specific tactics we use.
L. KING: Dixon, Kentucky, hello.
CALLER: Hi. What's the possibility that the Taliban or possibly Iraq, acting as an ally to the Taliban, what's the possibility of a nuclear defense to a U.S. offense?
L. KING: Senator Shelby?
SHELBY: Well, I think it would be very remote. I don't think right now Iraq has nuclear weapons. They really would like to have them, but they don't have them now. But there are other ways that they can hit at us.
I do want to say one thing -- follow up on what Chuck Schumer said just a minute ago, and I believe he's absolutely right -- we shouldn't lose interest in this because this has become a wake-up call for us; a real wake-up call. And if we lose interest, then go about our business as usual, we will be hit again somewhere, just like happened the other day. It will be different, but it will be fear and fear and fear in America.
L. KING: We thank you Senators Shelby, Kerry, Lugar and Schumer. We'll be hearing more from you.
We have an extraordinary discussion coming up that's dealing with a lot with biological weapons. Here's the scene of the nightly vigil at Union Square in New York, this goes on every night at 14th Street Union's famous spot in semi-lower Manhattan.
Joining us now, all from our bureau in New York are three authors of a very important, timely book. They didn't time it this way, but it's the way it came out. Returning after being with us last night is Judith Miller, Senior Writer of the "New York Times." Joining her is Stephen Engelberg, investigations editor of the "New York Times." And William Broad, science writer of the "New York Times."
The book is "Germs, Biological Weapons and America's Secret War." Miller is the expert on the Middle East, Engelberg focuses on terror and germ warfare from the CIA-intelligence angle. And Broad is primarily a science writer.
Let's start with William Broad. How close are we to seeing this?
WILLIAM BROAD, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Larry, no one knows. My crystal ball is as foggy as yours. This is a serious long-term problem. There is new technologies out there that will let terrorists do things, they could never, ever have imagined doing a decade ago. This is a serious long-term thing that we've got to keep our eye on. No one knows if or when this is going to happen. We hope to God that it doesn't. We wrote this book because we were afraid this issue was not getting the attention it deserved.
L. KING: Steven, what do we mean by America's secret war?
STEPHEN ENGELBERG, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, over the last ten years the United States has really been trying to get a handle on this problem. It's really an incredibly difficult problem. Imagine if you would that I gave you a plan how to make a nuclear bomb. You would then have an enormous technical challenge ahead of you. You would have to find enriched uranium, you would have to build an infrastructure, you would have to figure out how high explosives work. It's an incredible thing to do. Now, places like Iraq have done it. Many places have tried.
If I gave you one former Soviet Scientist with the knowledge in his head of how to make germ weapons, he could very easily go ahead and assemble for a very small amount of money. In the book we write about the fact that the Pentagon went to buy stuff off the shelf. They gave the team a million dollars and they were able for a million dollars to create a workable germ factory that could make enough Anthrax to kill all the people in New York, any number that you would like. So the secret war here is how to get at that, how do you attack that problem. And we're only at the beginning of it.
L. KING: Judith do you fear the people that did what they did last Tuesday have these weapons?
MILLER: Well, Larry we don't think they have them yet, but we do know that they have tried very hard, and they are continuing to try very hard very, very hard to get them. And as someone who works there and who visits these places, we know from intelligence sources, and we report in the book, that in fact Osama Bin Laden's camp, one of them in Afghanistan was actually all ready experimenting with poison toxins, chemicals perhaps, biological agents. And we've seen in satellite photos dead animals on one of these camp test ranges. So my concern is...
(CROSSTALK)
JUDITH MILLER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Yes he will not give up until he gets them.
L. KING: Before we ask about what's going on right now and what we might react, is there, Mr. Broad, a defense of this?
BROAD: There is ultimately no perfect defense. But there is a lot of smart stuff that we could do better. Today we're vulnerable. We are -- people could come in and hit us just as hard, horribly, much harder than we just got hit at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. But there are smart things to do to start to protect ourselves. We can start to make better detectors.
We can start to reinforce the public health service. They are right on the front lines if they were an outbreak. Most importantly we need to work, as everybody wants to do now real hard, on intelligence. That is the ultimate protection. You know, to try to penetrate, try to understand what's going on out there and to stop it before a germ attack occurs.
Because once it happens, it's going to be a nightmare.
L. KING: Steven Engelberg, what do you make of the fact that -- and I want all of you to get in on this, Judy wrote about it today. What do you make of the fact that the people who apparently did this were in their 30s, they drank, they commiserated in the community, they used MailBoxes Etc., they booked flights through normal ways thousands of Americans book flights? That's not normal kinds of terrorism activity is it?
ENGELBERG: Well, we are seeing a new kind of terrorist. We've been interviewing these people at the New York Times. The textbooks are all going to have to be re-written. We are seeing people who clearly came to the United States 18 months ago, two years ago, three years ago with the intent that they would fit into the community and then on a date to be determined die. That is a very different thing from taking a 19 year old or 18 year old kid, indoctrinating him for you know, five months and sending him off with a little bomb to blow up a pizza stand.
And the level of preparation and logistics and coordination that this took is staggering. And I think we are over the coming weeks and months going to have to rethink everything that we've ever thought about how terrorism is done.
L. KING: Judith, therefore, how do you counteract that?
MILLER: Well you have to be smarter than they are. We have to be always thinking as they would think only faster and better. And as Bill said, the reason we wrote the book is that there are so many things Larry, that this country could do and that we are now in a position to do. And that have been recommended by the way for almost 50 years, in terms of building a real civil defense for this country. And I would hope, and I think my colleagues agree that this is the moment. If we don't do it now, I don't see how we would ever do it. And these are really very inexpensive things to do.
L. KING: Let's include some phone calls for Judith Miller, Steven Engelberger and William Broad, all of the New York Times, all co-authors of "Germs, Biological Weapons and America's Secret War." Cincinnati, hello.
CALLER: Yes I was wanting to know what us as Americans would be able to do if you heard across the emergency broadcast service that there was a report of chemical warfare being used? What would be the first thing that we would be able to do, or that we would have to do?
L. KING: William Broad, you're our science writer?
BROAD: The first think I would do would be stay in doors, right? I mean, your house, your building are instant kind of nice safe shelters. And you know the thing not to do is panic. And I'd say stay in doors, stay tuned to the radio or the TV to get information from the Feds.
L. KING: Dublin, Georgia hello.
CALLER: Yes, my question is what did NSM mean by extraordinary danger to its neighbors? What can present extraordinary danger, I'd like to know what the panel thinks about that?
L. KING: Good question, Steven what do you think they meant by that?
ENGELBERG: Well you hear a lot of things. I would agree with the Senator who said earlier, it's unlikely they have nuclear weapons. However they can make enormous trouble for their neighbors. Think about Pakistan, a country which teeters on the brink of all manner of violence. They have a very militant stripe through -- I think that they could really destabilize Pakistan. But I think you really should ask Judy who has been to these places and can tell you more about that.
L. KING: All right Judy, what could they do?
MILLER: Well they could certainly make life hell for their neighbors by doing to their neighbors what they have done to us. Every society is now vulnerable, every neighbor has buildings and people and things that they care about. And if they continue this war and bring this war to their neighbors and not just to the great Satan, which is us I think it would be very, very uncomfortable in the region.
L. KING: Are you all -- William Broad I'll start with you -- are you therefore pessimistic short term?
BROAD: No short term I am very optimistic. I think that there are -- I think this is a long-range problem in terms of germ warfare. You know, right now the government is waking up, big time. The kind of preparations that have been half-hearted and in the works, they are coming right up to the fore now. People are getting serious finally about this stuff. And there are a lot of serious steps and preparations we can take. You know, we should be stockpiling smallpox vaccine. We should be making detectors better than we are doing. There is a whole list of things that have been half-hearted that are going to get serious now.
L. KING: Why Steven weren't we doing these things? Obviously we had the information. You didn't start this book yesterday?
ENGELBERG: I think that government is a very slow beast to move to action. You see warnings and people don't move, you see small things people move a little bit. What this incident, these attacks have created is a kind of political will to do things that were implausible a week ago. If you look at -- I used to cover airplane crashes. And you would find almost in every failure of an airplane, you could go back several times to various incidents. And people would say, but the plane didn't crash, why do we have to do all this unpleasant stuff. Now you see.
L. KING: Judith Miller you know Osama Bin Laden and you've written about him. He denied it today. What do you make of that?
MILLER: Well that doesn't surprise me, Larry, he's always denied the operations with which the United States has given him credit. It's part of his MO if you will. He denies it, but he also adds a little, but I'm very proud of the people who did it. Now he may have dropped that praise for the martyrs today, because maybe he is really figuring out that what seemed good around the campfire in Kandahar (ph) has turned into something that can really come back and destroy not only his movement but the people who housed him.
In terms, Larry, of biological weapons, I think it is important to point out, and we write about this in our book, that in fact America has already been the subject of a biological attack, a bio- terrorist attack back in 1984. A small religious cult in Oregon went after the people of the Dao's organ (ph) and they made more than 700 of them sick, to try and keep them from voting. And this was an incident which kind of alarmed the medical community and law enforcement at the time and it was quickly forgotten.
L. KING: Yeah, I don't remember it.
MILLER: The government decided that they were not going to pay much attention to it, because they didn't want to give people ideas. I think the time for denial is over, I think the time to do something is now.
L. KING: Judith is there another name in the terrorist community, if not the equal of Bin Laden, around in that circle is there a terrorist number two, terrorist number three?
MILLER: Absolutely, and that's why I have always been concerned about the focus, the over focus on this one man.
L. KING: Who are they?
MILLER: He has a group around him -- well, you've probably never heard of their names, except perhaps in the New York Times, because we wrote about them. But they are men like, Abu Zubeda (ph), a Palestinian who was trying to blow us all up during the Millennium. There is a man named Dr. Iman Alzuwaferi (ph) who is a member of the Egyptian Jihad, which was the group that was partly responsible for the assassination of Anwar Sadat. There is another man, his military commander named Abu Hoffsomosferie (ph), another Egyptian militant. And these men could go on and take over the organization if something happened to Osama Bin Laden. So I really think that we've got to avoid focusing on one personality. It is a network, it is as Secretary Powell called it today, a holding company. You've got to decapitate the head from the networks, and then we'll start in on the rest. I think that's what the government strategy is and I think it's the right one.
L. KING: The CEO has to go.
MILLER: The CEO has to go.
L. KING: To Largo, Florida, hello. CALLER: Yes Larry, I just wanted to ask you about the troops, our troops have been vaccinated for anthrax several years ago. Will that help, and should we be vaccinated for that?
L. KING: William?
BROAD: You know, I'm going to defer to my colleague Steve, who is the world's encyclopedia on this topic.
ENGELBERG: Well we have in fact vaccinated a relatively small percentage of our troops. We've had enormous technical problem producing the vaccine. There are all kinds of questions as to whether the vaccine is fully effective. It has been revealed over the last few years that it is possible to genetically engineer anthrax to make it into a different form. But the fascinating thing here is that we have been unable to produce something relatively simple, a vaccine. And as a result, the hope was to vaccinate all active duty troops and reserves and we have not done so.
L. KING: How about the water supply William?
BROAD: I think the water supply is safe. I mean, if somebody really wants to do us a lot of harm, they are going to put the bugs into the air. That's the route to go, and everybody knows it. Water has chlorine, it has all kinds of things to try to kill germs, so drink away don't worry about it.
MILLER: Judith I asked the others, are you optimistic too, short range?
MILLER: Well I'm only going to start to be optimistic when I hear our policy makers say, you know we need civil defense. We need not just the missile shield that they are planning on building but we need to do something about the fact that most hospitals, even hospitals in New York have virtually no surge capacity. I'll be optimistic when I hear that every doctor and pharmacist and nurse in this country knows how to recognize a case of anthrax and some other things that really they haven't had to think about.
When we start to do something serious, I'll breathe a little easier.
L. KING: There probably isn't a more important book out there now, than, "Germs, Biological Weapons and America's Secret War" and we thank the co-authors, Judith Miller, Steven Engelberg and William Broad, all of them New York Times, for being with us tonight.
Before meeting our next guest, here's a scene at ground zero in New York. Day six, unbelievable. Joining us now from Boston, speaking of unbelievable.
Joining us now from Boston, speaking of unbelievable. Stephanie Holland-Broadney and Nathanial Nate Holland, they are sister and brother. Their mother, Cora Holland, was one of the 92 people who died on American Airlines Flight 11. That was the first plane to hit the World Trade Center and there is the late Cora Holland. And we understand, Stephanie, that your father was tracking this plane on the Internet?
STEPHANIE HOLLAND-BROADNEY, MOM DIED ON FLIGHT: Yes he was. He did that frequently, when anyone in my family flies he would bring up the American Airlines Web site on his laptop and just track us. Because my mom always worried about us kids, and she always liked to know exactly where we were, even in flight.
L. KING: So you can track a plane across its complete flight from takeoff to landing?
BROADNEY: Yes you can, get elevation, turns, everything, it was quite amazing.
L. KING: So he saw Flight 11 do what?
BROADNEY: Disappear off the screen. And I believe a message came up, that said contact American Airlines. And then from with that, I think within ten minutes, he realized that what had happened. And my mother's flight had crashed.
L. KING: Did he call you?
BROADNEY: Yes he did, and by that time I had known that two planes had crashed into the World Trade Center, but it didn't even cross my mind that it could be my mother, because I had taken that flight many times myself. And the minute he called and he said, there has been a plane crash, I just knew, I just knew that it was her.
L. KING: Nathaniel, you're a freshman at Fordham University in New York, right?
NATHANIEL HOLLAND, MOM DIED ON FLIGHT 11: Right.
L. KING: Did you see any of this?
HOLLAND: Yeah I found out during my first class that a plane had crashed into it, but at that time, no one knew it was terrorism. Everyone thought it was just a commuter, not even a commuter plane just -- who knew who it was. So, I went to the top of my building and from there, running across the terrace, we saw the big smoke cloud.
Even then, we just thought it was a plane that was flying low, it never occurred to us that it was a plane. We could see the two towers and there was just a huge hole in one of them. But even at that time, the first thing I thought of was my other sister who lives in New York who works down near the village, who works on a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which is by the towers. So the first person I thought of was her, and the fact that it could be my mom in that plane was just completely foreign to me.
L. KING: Did you see the second one hit?
HOLLAND: Yes we did, I saw the first tower fall. And then I ran inside, turned on the news to try to see what was going on, and I had been hearing it was a flight from Boston. I knew both of my parents were traveling that morning, so I was obviously extremely concerned. But I was hearing that it was a flight from Boston to New York, that would make sense. I knew my mother was going to L.A. and my dad to Chicago, so even at that point I still wasn't too worried.
But then I heard that it was a flight from Boston to L.A. And then, even then, you just try to deny it as much as possible. The chance that it was her flight and that it was American Airlines were just still so slim in my mind. And I checked the e-mail she had sent the night before, and she told me she was leaving at 7:45 in the morning and I saw it was an American Airlines flight. And at that time I just put the pieces together myself.
L. KING: Stephanie, you did the same?
BROADNEY: Yeah, my dad -- I actually had relatives in California call me. I had no idea what was going on. You know, my son was watching Barney at the time, and I just had no clue. Once my father called me though, our biggest concern was to get a hold of Nate, because Jessica, my sister, had gotten a hold of my father, and had told her. And I actually, I had to tell Nate over the Internet that my mom had died. It was horrible, I didn't know what to tell him.
L. KING: You sent him like an e-mail or fax? ?
BROADNEY: No we were doing Instant Messenger on AOL, and at the same time...
L. KING: How did you write it, what did you say? ?
BROADNEY: He said, Steph, was mom in that plane? And I just said, Nate you need to come home. And he knew, he knew. I just kept typing to him, are you OK, and he kept saying yes, yes.
L. KING: Oh my God. Nate, how did you get home?
HOLLAND: A lot of work. My sister was down on 14th Street at a friend's dorm. And so, my first thought was I had to get to any sort of family member I could. So I was on 59th street, that's where my dorm is. And I tried to take a taxi, but it was just chaos. It took me down as far as 42nd. And 42 to 14th, I just had to walk. And once I did find my sister, thank God she had some really good friends in the city that just worked with us all day trying to get us out of there. And eventually they drove us up to White Plains and my dad met us there, and this was 9:00 p.m.
L. KING: What was Cora doing, why was she going to California, Nate?
HOLLAND: All of our family is in California. Her mom's in California, her brothers are from California.
L. KING: Indeed I've told five relatives flew out from Southern California for her service, and the airline gave them top priority and the marshals escorted them on and off the plane.
HOLLAND: Yes, it was amazing the respect that they were showing. I mean, they had three connections to make in Dallas and St. Louis and go all over the place. And they were allowed to leave the plane first. They were escorted wherever they were and it was handled pretty nicely.
L. KING: Stephanie, what was your mom like?
BROADNEY: My mom was the mom that everybody wanted. You know, they really don't make people like my mom any more. She put herself first, as Nate said...
L. KING: Put her family first? ?
BROADNEY: Put her family first and her friends and the Red Sox, and not necessarily in that order, that's what Nate said yesterday at her service. She just loved life. She loved meeting people. And she just had a respect for everyone and was the most non-judgmental, unselfish person you would ever meet.
L. KING: I wish we would have known her, thank you both very much. ?
BROADNEY: Thank you.
L. KING: Stephanie Holland Broadney and Nathaniel Nate Holland, daughter and son of Cora Holland. How's your dad doing by the way?
HOLLAND: He's hanging in there, it's going to take time, but I think we can all feel the strength and the love that my mom left behind and that's just pulling us through right now, that's just helping us.
L. KING: Thank you both very much
Going to talk with Robert Crandall, the former Chairman and CEO of American Airlines. First some moving moments of the last few days.
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L. KING: We are joined now from Dallas by Robert Crandall, one of the famed names in American aviation, the former chairman and CEO of American Airlines.
Do you keep in touch with the people who run it now, Robert?
ROBERT CRANDALL, FORMER CHAIRMAN AND CEO, AMERICAN AIRLINES: Oh, I do my best, Larry, but they have been awfully busy, as you can imagine, the last week or so.
L. KING: Are there holes in the security system, Robert? Is that now evident?
CRANDALL: Yes. I think we've known there were holes in the security system for a long time, Larry. And I was struck by the conversation that you were having with people about germs and contamination -- we've known for a long time that there are problems with the security system, and it's a shame we didn't fix it before, and I hope we will fix them now. L. KING: Why not?
CRANDALL: Well, for a whole variety of reasons, but I think perhaps the first and foremost one is that we have to recognize that aviation security is a governmental responsibility. It's not something you can farm out to the Air Force and the airlines. It's a police function, it should be undertaken by the government, as it is in most countries.
L. KING: Right.
CRANDALL: And it should be much more inclusive and much tougher than it is.
L. KING: So you think rather than FAA, it should be police?
CRANDALL: Well, it's not a police matter. The point is, I think we probably need some sort of a separate agency, whose mission in life is aviation security.
L. KING: Should people feel safe about flying?
CRANDALL: Well, I think the temporary, the stop-gap measures that are in places today are probably assuring, because we've got lots and lots of people, and everybody's watching, probably assuring a reasonable level of safety. The key is going to be to put in place a comprehensive and inclusive system that will go on forever, so we can always fell safe, so we can restore the vigor or the airlines industry, so the economy can have the travel that it needs to be the vigorous and support the economic strength of America.
L. KING: All right, when you ran the airline, was there any training given with regard to hijacking?
CRANDALL: Yes, all the airlines provide training for their flight crews with respect to hijacking.
L. KING: Because pilots are saying today there should be a way to seal off the cockpit, they can take measures if they have that happen, they can bring the plane down safely?
CRANDALL: Well, Larry, I think that's part of this overall comprehensive approach to aviation safety. I think we've got to make -- we've got to do away with the flimsy cockpit doors we have today, we've got to make those cockpits simply impenetrable by terrorists. There can and should be more and better warning systems. But as long as the pilots retain control of the airplane, the airplane will get back on the ground.
L. KING: We learned today that the president has authorized the shooting down of a commercial airliner that might be headed for a target area like Washington. How do you react to something like that?
CRANDALL: Well, I think it had to be a very difficult choice that the president made, but I think what he was doing is that in the event that that airplane was going to threaten the World Trade Center, it would obviously be better to lose the people on one airplane than thousands of people if we lost. If we have the right kind of security system, Larry, we will never have to make that choice again.
L. KING: What's the future of American Airlines, United Airlines, Delta Airlines?
CRANDALL: Well, I think the future of the airlines industry, Larry, in the long term is right as it has always been. In the short term, there is obviously going to be a terrible retraction, there is going to be a reluctance to fly (UNINTELLIGIBLE) economy. In the long term, again, if we put in place the right kind of security systems, I think people will again feel confident, they will go back to flying. In the long term, health of the airlines business will be fine.
L. KING: Are we going to have to make free society compromises here, Robert?
CRANDALL: I think so, Larry. I think we're going to have to recognize that flying is discretionary, that you don't have to fly, and that those who choose to fly are going to have to sacrifice perhaps something in terms of privacy. We're going to need to know who's on the airplanes. We are certainly going to have to question very carefully and inspect very carefully the travel intentions and plans of those who carry passports, for example, from hostile states.
So, I think there's going to have to be a balance struck between those compromises that are consistent with aviation safety and the absolute freedoms or more absolute freedoms that we've had in the past.
L. KING: Can the industry -- does the industry need loans now from the government?
CRANDALL: I think in all probability there is some loans guarantees, that is guarantees from the government that will the airlines to borrow the money the need to get through a very difficult period that lies immediately ahead. It's in the national interests. We -- after all, we have to have an airline industry. It is the only inter-city transportation system in the United States. It needs to be vigorous, it needs to be strong. If it needs some help to get through this rough patch, I think the Congress and the people probably ought to support that.
L. KING: Thanks, Robert. Good seeing you.
CRANDALL: Good to see you, Larry. Nice to be here.
L. KING: It's been a long time.
CRANDALL: It has indeed. Thank you very much, and let's all hope for better times.
L. KING: Robert Crandall, former chairman and CEO of American Airlines, one of the major figures in airlines history in this country. We're going to talk in just a moment with Suze Ormand the personal finance expert about what's going to happen tomorrow and with Richard Grassley, Chairman and CEO of the New York Stock Exchange. And then Bob Woodward. First, here's some more moments of the President this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Tomorrow the good people of America go back to their shops, their fields, American factories and go back to work. Our nation was horrified, but it's not going to be terrorized.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
L. KING: Joining us now at the New York Stock Exchange is Richard Grasso, the chairman and CEO of that exchange. And in our New York Bureau, Suze Orman. Suze is the personal finance expert and best-selling author.
Richard, Paul O'Neil the Treasury Secretary is going to be there tomorrow, May Giuliani, Governor Pataki for the reopening at 9:30 Eastern. Do you expect things to run smoothly?
RICHARD GRASSO, CHAIRMAN, NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE: Yes indeed, it will be a 9:30 opening to be commemorated by the ringing of the bell from a New York City fireman, a New York City police officer, a Port Authority police officer, and an Emergency Medical Services officer. Yes indeed we are ready, we have rebuilt the infrastructure to the point where I am confident that 85 million Americans can be back in the greatest market in the world.
L. KING: And do you expect it, Richard, to be a bad day?
GRASSO: Well Larry I think the message we have sent over these last four days, starting with the brilliant leadership of our President, is that America is strong, our economy is the envy of the rest of the world. This is a challenge, but it is a short-term challenge. History has proven, if you are a patient investor, if you believe in America as we all do, you will be amply rewarded by investments in the market.
L. KING: Are you going to have a moment of silence right away tomorrow for the dead?
GRASSO: Actually Larry, what we are going to do, as you know, we normally ring the bell and start trading at 9:30. Tomorrow, we'll ring the bell and be silent for two minutes until 9:32. And at 9:32 a U.S. Marine Corps major Roseanne Spagnollie (ph) will lead this community in the singing of "God Bless America," to then be followed by those four brave representatives of the greatest policing and fire agency in the world, and then we will be back to business.
L. KING: You hold on, Rich, we'll have another question or two for you. Suze, what should people do tomorrow, investors what should they do? SUZE ORMAN, AUTHOR: I think they should be patient and just watch, and I think they should go into it with a lot of hope Larry. In that the markets may open up/down, but I have to tell you, over the long run I think, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw the markets end up tomorrow up. But people don't invest just for one day, they invest for the long run, so be very careful there. Tomorrow the markets are not made forever.
L. KING: Warren Buffett said, if it goes down, he'll buy.
ORMAN: Well you know, that's not a bad idea, but where are you buying, what are you doing, those people out there who have mutual funds should be just a little careful. They should remember, even if they placed an order to sell at 9:00, they get the closing day price that day, so I would just sit back and wait, it doesn't matter if you place an order at 9:30 at 10:30, at 11:30, the truth is, even if you waited till 12:00 you would get the same price. But be careful here, because I think in the long run, one year from now, we will be better off than we would have been if this never had happened.
L. KING: All right I'll ask this of both of you, Richard, patriotically, should we hold on to what we've got?
GRASSO: Larry, this is the strongest country on the face of the earth, our economy has slowed, but it was slowing prior to the terrible, heinous crime committed against all Americans last Tuesday. What we know is that we will lead the world in the economy of the 21st Century. This economy is indeed going to be different going forward. But it is going to be strong and patient investors, as Suze said, have historically been time and again well well-rewarded. So be patient, be prudent, don't invest for Monday, invest to meet your needs.
L. KING: Suze, patriotically, can you do something patriotic with your investment tomorrow?
ORMAN: Well I have to tell you, I think we should all hope that this market goes up, and as a patriotic thing, don't sell. Obviously if you have stocks that are somehow subjected to some downward move because of what just happened - why there are airlines and insurance mainly - but for most of you out there, you have good quality stocks. If you should have owned them before this happened, please stay in them now. And stick with this, because in the long run, again, I do believe, we will be just fine.
L. KING: Of course fear motivates people a lot, doesn't it Suze?
ORMAN: Fear motivates people a lot, but you know what is so funny Larry is that fear and hope were the two emotions that kept people before this ever happened in the market and in stocks, when maybe they shouldn't have sold. They had a stock at 25, it went to 50 and they were afraid to sell it, because they were afraid they were afraid it might go to 75 or 80. Hope that they bought it at 75 and it went to 50 and if they were hoping for it to go back to 75, emotions rule what happens in the market.
L. KING: Let's get a call in for Richard Grasso and Suze Orman. Wichita, Hello.
CALLER: Hello Larry, as a long term economic solution to this problem, I propose that just as Kennedy said we're going to put a man on the Moon by such and such a date, we get our country to say, hey, by such and such a date we are going to be energy independent from the rest of the world. We have all the technologies to do it, we have all the abilities to do it. We just need to put forward the resolve and do it so we are not dependent on the Arab nations for our oil etc.
L. KING: What do you make of that, Suze?
ORMAN: Well you know that would be great but the reality of things is that we are dependent, this is where we are today. And the stock market is made up of more than just energy stocks. They are made up of all kinds of stocks and they are made up of really your future, everybody out there. We can take our future into our own hands if you just invest today with a rational eye rather than an emotional one. Please just watch carefully tomorrow. You don't necessarily have to be a participant by buying or selling, just watch and send your good wishes for this market for the next few days.
L. KING: One more call for Richard and Suze, Dallas, hello.
CALLER: Hi Larry, Hi Suze, I want to ask you quickly about the plunge protection team, where the federal government might bail out the stock market. Where is the accountability in America? Should the federal government be doing this?
L. KING: Well let's ask Richard this, Richard, do you think so?
GRASSO: Well Larry, these markets are the freest and the most open on earth. And the federal government's role is not to stabilize by buying securities, the federal government's role as the Federal Reserve has indeed done is inject liquidity into the market system. I'm very confident, Larry, having stood in this very spot in 1987 and watched a very precipitous decline, the market declines in the late '60s, the '70s. Again, to Suze's point, patience, by quality, don't be irrational in liquidating in periods of challenge. Our nation has never been stronger, this economy is going to recover to the point where we'll look back with great pride.
L. KING: Suze you optimistic too?
ORMAN: I have to tell you, a few months ago I was less optimistic than I am today. I think the infusion of capital ...
L. KING: Really?
ORMAN: ... yes -- into the economy by the Fed, by even the corporations. I have to tell you, Larry, the corporations...
L. KING: I've got to run -- go ahead quickly.
ORMAN: The corporations have opened up their hands to start money flowing again, even if it is to say, what's just happened -- I think, again, I'm more optimistic than I was a few months ago. L. KING: Suze Orman, the personal finance expert and best- selling author, and the very up Richard Grasso, the Chairman and CEO of the New York Stock Exchange -- the whole world will be watching you tomorrow morning, Richard -- thanks for being with us.
GRASSO: Thank you Larry, tune in.
L. KING: Joining us now from Washington, one of my favorite journalists ever, the Assistant Managing Editor of the Washington Post, the Pulitzer Prize winner and best-selling author Bob Woodward. How's the President done so far in this tragedy.
BOB WOODWARD, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think, exceptionally well. He really has hit his stride and he is out there talking about it and has this team of Cheney and Powell and Rumsfeld, and lots of people with a great deal of experience and a sense that you don't solve problems like this in a day or week. And they've all set the timeline way out, and are talking about years of work. And I think that's quite wise.
L. KING: You wrote, "The Commanders," all about the Gulf War, it was a heck of a book, and Powell and Cheney were two leading figures in that book. Do you have confidence in them in this area, a different kind of war.
WOODWARD: And I think they realize that as much as anyone. What's interesting about Cheney is, if you saw any of his interview today, he has this way of almost mainlining confidence out to people. He is the rock. During the Gulf War he didn't make the detailed military decisions, but he literally made sure he knew all the details, knew the people that were making the decisions. And had the generals and admirals come up and give him a course in war-planning that went on -- took 18 hours of lessons in this -- and at the end gave him a certificate. So no detail will escape him, I suspect.
L. KING: And then Powell?
WOODWARD: Somebody who is notoriously cautious. He was called, and I called him in my book on the Gulf War, the Reluctant Warrior. He has pleaded guilty to that, saying a general's job is to protect the troops, so I presume he will move very slowly on this. He doesn't like to do anything or say anything unless he is pretty assured of success.
L. KING: Bob you, of course, are a strong defender of the First Amendment and do that in your writing and in your paper's brilliant coverage of many events. What do we do here with the public's right to know versus national security concerns? What do you do if say, you get some information and the government calls you up and says, don't print it?
WOODWARD: Well, I think people in this case, when there is a live war going on, I think people are going to be very careful. I was interested -- I think the most important thing that happened this weekend was when Cheney came out today and said, we don't know but it is possible there are other terrorists incidents in the works. And Cheney who is somebody not inclined to speculate actually stepped forward and said maybe there were other teams on Tuesday who got cold feet and didn't board their planes or were thwarted somehow. If you look at what Rumsfeld said, the Secretary of Defense four times in one interview today said, "terrorists can strike anywhere at anytime with a technique or method of their choosing and not necessarily with airplanes." So I think people ought to be vigilant and on their toes now, because I think that's what Cheney and Rumsfeld are telling us.
L. KING: Would one of those aspects of vigilance be, don't fly on a commercial aircraft?
WOODWARD: No, people have to make those decisions. It's just to watch where you are going, know the environment we live in, not take...
L. KING: You mean, we gotta go out of our houses and look left and right?
WOODWARD: Yeah and you need -- if there is something suspicious going on, call people. My voice mail was filled with leads today and over the weekend and I tried to check them and there are people out there who were on their toes.
L. KING: Are you worried Bob?
WOODWARD: I think it would only be prudent to worry. You have to look at this as a war, as everyone has said. And it necessitates getting into the head of the other side. Who ever did this just isn't angry at America, they obviously hate America and they are trying to destabilize this country, certainly disfigure it. And it would be logical for them to do something else. It's not that they have just launched this one operation and are likely going to say, OK now we'll let America come at us.
L. KING: Bob, it's always great seeing and having you with us -- great journalist, thanks. Bob Woodward of the Washington Post. Tomorrow don't forget, among the guests, President Mubarak of Egypt. Erin Brown will have the "Erin Brown Special Report" following this program, and leading into Mr. Brown, we are going to offer you some sights and sounds. Watch.
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