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CNN Sunday Morning

America's New War: U.S. Ponders Military Response

Aired September 16, 2001 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning from New York City, this morning. This morning, what you see coming from Ground Zero. You can't make it out from this shot, but you can from a wider shot. You are seeing a combination of steam and smoke rising from the area. Firefighters hosing down the smoldering flames around the clock and what is happening now, as the debris is moved and the air hits and hits what is underneath, it continues to fan the flames. A painstaking effort going on and we'll give you more details of - a little bit later on of what exactly rescuers, paramedics and police officers and firefighters continue to face.

Again, good to have you with us this morning. I'm Paula Zahn joining you from New York City. Bill Hemmer is still with us this morning although we have moved him further south. He joins us this morning pretty close to Ground Zero. Again, John King with us today from Washington D.C., of course, the senior White House correspondent and also, from Atlanta again this morning, from our investigation desk is Miles O'Brien.

Before we get to all of you and your individual reports, I'd like to bring all of the rest of you up to date on the latest developments in America's new war.

The Justice Department is now telling CNN a second person has been arrested as a material witness in Tuesday's terrorist attacks. The man has not yet been identified but he is custody in New York.

President Bush has told the nation that we are at war and at a meeting with top advisers at Camp David; the president declared that Osama Bin Laden was the "prime suspect" in Tuesday's attacks.

Wall Street opens for business tomorrow but it won't be business as usual. And airlines are facing severe financial losses. And many of the nation's major corporations are bracing for tough economic times.

All right, back to the latest here. In New York City, we're going to get another shot of Ground Zero up to give you a better idea of the latest details at this hour. The mayor of the city saying Ground Zero operations will be viewed as a rescue operation until all hope is gone. The digging continues not only by machines but by hand and in some cases, even small buckets are being used for retrieval.

There's a rotation of shifts here -- 12 hours on, 12 hours on, 24 hours on, 24 hours off by some crews. So far, 22,000 tons of rubble has been hauled out so far. The mayor though cautioning everybody that we should be realistic about what we may face. The total number of dead recovered stands at 159. Mayor Giuliani saying that it is a good possibility bodies might not be identified, bodies might not be found.

As we said, downtown opens tomorrow but the folks who were having the first opportunity to check out their businesses are finding the National Guard, in some cases, blocking their streets. Electricity, at this hour, Miles, is out in many of those buildings. And I think the toughest job for the folks that are going down for the first time is actually getting to their buildings. And of course, they have no idea what they find when they're going to get there. We're going to have reports throughout the morning to give you an idea of how that part of life is trying to get back as close to normal as possible.

Let's got back to Miles now for the latest from there.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right, just to give you a brief update, Paula. The investigation into Tuesday's attacks, the biggest in U.S. history. We've been telling you that all along. And it involves 7,000 FBI agents and support personnel.

One little note to give you - a discovery yesterday has investigators shifting their focus away from the scene you see right there, a place we've been calling Ground Zero, the area directly around the World Trade Center. A passport apparently belonging to one of the hijackers on board one of the planes was found yesterday several blocks from the crash site. And investigators are in that area trying to see if there's any additional evidence they may be able to glean.

The Justice Department has issued a list of 19 people they believe were directly involved in Tuesday's hijacking. We'll be back with more in just a bit -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right, thanks so much, Miles. I wanted to let you know a piece of information that CNN found out over night that the Pakistani government, led by General Pervez Musharraf -- a hundred different pronunciations of that name -- but he will ask the Taliban, Afghanistan's leaders, to hand over suspected terrorist, Osama bin Laden or face massive military action led by the United States.

Now right now, we are going to go to Islamabad, Pakistan where Tom Mintier joins us to give us an idea of how that is all going on and sort of how that's playing there.

Good morning, Tom.

TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula. Sources tell CNN that President Musharraf will indeed send a representative into Kandahar, into Afghanistan to meet with Mullah Omar tomorrow and they will provide an ultimatum to the Taliban to hand over Osama Bin Laden in three days or face a huge military operation.

We also have been getting some more details about the phone conversation last night between the Pakistani president and U.S. president, George W. Bush. What the Pakistanis want for their cooperation in any military operation would be U.S. efforts to relieve the economic suffering here in Pakistan -- the U.S. has sanctions in place here -- also, restructuring the debt of $30 billion here in Pakistan.

They also are asking the United States to help Pakistan in its dispute with India over the Kashmir region. That disputed region asking the United States to play a more active role. And they've also that India and Israel not be involved in the operation to get Osama Bin Laden if indeed he is the one they go after, if there is indeed a military operation.

Also, they do say that Osama Bin Laden, they say, holds the key to war or no war in this region. Now, it is a bit unsettling right now, what's going on behind the scenes. There is a briefing going on all day long. The Pakistani president has been meeting with editorial writers, scholars and even religious leaders inside the president's office today to brief them on the cooperation that's going to be offered to the United States.

Sometime in the next 24 to 48 hours, we expect the Pakistani president to go on national television here and explain it to the people. But there is a bit of confidence building going on right now all day in these meetings, which are expected to run late into the night, maybe up until midnight, trying to explain his government's position to his people -- Paula.

ZAHN: President Musharraf is expected to get some resistance from some of the more radical groups in his country. What can he expect on their behalf?

MINTIER: Well, when you talk to people here in Pakistan, some say the horror of what they have seen, the images they have seen of the World Trade Center being hit by the airplanes is something that no one could support. So that they may mute a bit the opposition to the plan to allow the United States.

We still don't know some of the details. Last night, the foreign minister talked about following U.N. resolutions, following the Security Council and letting the United Nations led this. But we have to wait and see what indeed the United States asks of Pakistan, what Pakistan provides. I think that will determine what the reaction might be on the streets of Islamabad and other cities like Karachi where there is a strong anti-American sentiment here already.

But last time that there was military action in Afghanistan in '98, there were riots in most of the major cities here in Pakistan. And the Pakistanis were not even involved as far as supporting the United States. A whole different dimension this time with the level of cooperation that's being extended to the United States to deal with the Taliban.

ZAHN: Tom, Pakistan currently hosts about 2.5 million refugees from Afghanistan. There are reports that Afghanis are trying to leave their country. What is happening at processing points right now? Can they get into Pakistan if they want to, the ones that are trying to flee over the last couple of days?

MINTIER: Well, the border -- the borders have -- the borders have been open for the last few days. I talked to someone from the UNHCR, United Nations Commissioner for High Refugees. They expect the outflow from Afghanistan to be steady. And the closer it gets to a military option, they expect that flow to increase like turning on a spigot.

They say that there could be hundreds of thousands if not millions still to come out of Afghanistan. They're bracing, what they say, for the worst --trying to reposition supplies and tents. The camps are already, you know, very, very full. But they say that if indeed there is the increased threat of military action inside Afghanistan, people are running for their lives. And the place they're running for is Pakistan right now.

So they expect the areas around the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan to be extremely crowded in the next few days as people are packing up their belongings, what they have, if they have the money and ability to move out. Many of them have already done so.

ZAHN: All right, Tom Mintier, thank you so much for that update. Right now, I want to go to John King who is standing by in the nation's capitol.

Before you get to some of your own reporting, I have a couple of questions to ask you about what Tom Mintier just reported. He said it is Pakistan's expectation that perhaps the United States, in exchange for Pakistani's help in snuffing out Osama Bin Laden, might retire some $30 billion of debt. They also expect the U.S. to get involved with the dispute with Kashmir and India. Is that going to happen?

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, those are certainly, what the administration would consider to be reasonable proposals. One of the issues here even before this dispute, the administration was trying to build closer relations with the world's largest democracy, India. That had ruffled feathers in Pakistan and caused some tension, obviously, tension between the Untied States and Pakistan since Mr. Musharraf came to power in coup, a bloodless coup but still a coup.

So certainly the administration willing to discuss those things, we are told. First and foremost, of course, Paula, right now, the emphasis on this operation, the planning. And the administration encouraged by the support he has received from the Pakistani government.

Issues of long-term debt, issues of trying to involved in negotiations about the Kashmir, all that down the road. But certainly, if the Pakistani government showed good faith with the United States government, you could expect efforts by the administration to step in and try to help.

ZAHN: What are you hearing from the White House today?

KING: Well, Paula, just a short time ago, we received the first administration reaction, the first Bush administration reaction to this proposal, this demand by Pakistan that the Taliban turn over Osama Bin Laden. I spoke to a senior administration official just a few moments ago, who said -- quote -- "it is very encouraging. We're not in any way expecting the Taliban to respond" -- excuse me -- "not in any way expecting the Taliban response to be positive. But it shows the degree to which Pakistan has decided to step up and publicly try to help us here."

So the administration encouraged by this step from Pakistan. This, as President Bush mulls his military options, his diplomatic options, also tries to rally the American public, asking them to be patient here. And for more on that and the president's deliberations, I'd like to bring in now my colleague, Major Garrett who's standing by over at the White House.

Major, on the one hand, this, an encouraging development. Pakistan stepping up to help the administration. What else should we look for in the day ahead?

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, the president does not have any formal meetings on his schedule today with his National Security Council, which convened at the presidential retreat at Camp David on Saturday. But you know as well as I do, there will be informal contacts with the president throughout the day from a variety of sources, law enforcement, from John Ashcroft, the attorney general and anyone in his international relations or military or national security team.

As relates to the offer or the request from Pakistan, that Afghanistan turn over Osama Bin Laden, no official White House reaction to that.

And as to the phone call between President Bush and Pakistani president Musharraf, the White House isn't even describing anything about that phone call at all. All the descriptions, of course, coming from Pakistan. And what we are seeing is a bit of diplomatic leveraging through the good services of the global reach of CNN on the part of the Pakistani government to lay on the table and make sure the United States plus the larger world community knows exactly what Pakistan is looking for as it tries to negotiate in a rather public way with the United States about what it might receive in return.

No confirmation from the White House about any of those conversations. The White House only acknowledging that in fact President Bush talked to President Musharraf for about 10 minutes.

Yesterday, the Secretary of State Colin Powell, when talking to reporters at this very meeting at Camp David we're seeing there on the video tape, said that not only is the United States receiving expressions of support from around the world. He said, "They are not just rhetorical support -- I'm quoting the Secretary of State here -- "but real support for whatever may lie ahead." He also said, "I might especially want to thank the president and the people of Pakistan for the support they have offered and their willingness to assist us in whatever might be required" -- John. KING: Major, I want to shift gears just a little bit here. It is now the Sunday after these attacks and last week, the administration worked with stock market, worked with major sports organizations like the NFL and Major League Baseball, asking them and cooperating with them and canceling -- not opening the markets, canceling the games.

Tomorrow, the administration sort of dubbing back to business day, if you will. Major League Baseball will resume. The markets will open. These may seem insignificant given the depth of this crisis but an effort by the administration to show that life is getting back to normal. Not back to normal but getting back to normal. Any case of nerves?

GARRETT: Well, the White House, clearly, wants to begin to turn the country's attention back to some of the more fundamental activities in this country. Clearly, the stock market is fundamental to American capitalism in American business. And on a lighter side, but not an insignificant side, returning Major League Baseball to full activity, other sports' activities.

A distraction, in the president's view, a helpful distraction. He mentioned that yesterday a sign of normality returning to the United States, you know. In U.S. history, the distractions provided by things like Major League Baseball, sporting events, entertainment has often provided immense sustenance to the public when there is so much concern, so much edginess. Clearly, concern and edginess are a part of the atmosphere the White House knows exists across the United States. And the president wants to move in the direction of normality returning sooner rather than later -- John.

KING: All right, CNN's Major Garrett at the White House. Thank you very much. As Major noted, an effort to start getting back normal. But in the president's own words yesterday, "We're at war." CNN's David Ensor now takes a look at whether or not, as the president mulls his military operation, is there a quick fix out there?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An angry and determined president is promising action.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will find those who did it. We will smoke them out of their holes.

ENSOR: But if Osama Bin Laden is the culprit, revenge against him or against his hosts, the Afghan Taliban government, will not be easy.

Cruise missiles fired in 1998 missed Bin Laden and may only have strengthened his image. Even if Bin Laden is killed, many analysts say that would not stop terrorism by his followers.

GEN. WILLIAM ODOM (RET), FORMER NSA DIRECTOR: I would want to -- I would want to destroy as much of Bin Laden as possible. I'm simply saying that's like picking a wart off your neck or something. That doesn't do much. That's a very superficial blow against this kind of capability.

M.J. GOHEL, SECURITY & TERRORISM EXPERT: To get rid of one man or to launch any kind of revenge attack, isn't going to help. Revenge alone is not an answer. There has to be a complete eradication and elimination of all the training camps.

ENSOR: But bombing along would not likely achieve that and there are indications those terrorist training camps in Afghanistan are today, largely empty.

Much of Bin Laden's support is across the border in Pakistan, in the area around Peshawar. One reason the promise by Pakistani president, Musharraf, to help the U.S. against the terrorists could be crucial.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: And I especially want to thank the president and the people of Pakistan for the support that they have offered and their willingness to assist us in whatever might be required in that part of the world as we determine who these perpetrators are.

ENSOR: But can Musharraf convince his military and intelligence services to stop their long and active support for the Taliban?

GOHEL: Pakistan is supplying fuel, funding infrastructure, training arms and administer -- to help for the Taliban. Without the Pakistani lifeline, the Taliban would not survive.

ENSOR: Senior administration officials warn none of this is going to be easy or quick and that the United States cannot do it alone. It could, in fact, take years analysts say of political, economic and military effort before Americans can overcome their newfound fear of mass terrorism on U.S. soil.

PAUL BREMER, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM AMB: We're talking about a war and it's a campaign, a new campaign. There are going to be a lot of battles. We're going to win some of these battles. We're going to loss some of these battles. There are going to be more civilian casualties on both sides. More Americans will die.

ENSOR: Before it is over, many analysts say it could even require U.S. ground troops in the region. For now, though, the main focus of Bush team is diplomatic, building a strong international coalition, much as the president's father did before the Gulf War.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Obviously, our CNN correspondents here in Washington, in New York and around the world following developments today. Also, on CNN's "LATE EDITION" today, a special three hour "LATE EDITION," among the guests, the Secretary of State Colin Powell, the New York governor, George Pataki and New York City mayor, Rudy Giuliani.

Now back to Paula Zahn in New York. ZAHN: All right, John, I'm not going to let you get away so quickly. Got -- I got a question for you about some of the polling that's been done. The "New York Times"/CBS News Poll is now showing that 85 percent of the folks they talked to backed U.S. military action against those responsible for the attacks. And further more, 75 percent still supported military engagement even if that risked the deaths of innocent people. Any response or any reaction to these polls from any of the folks you've talked with as you work the phones?

KING: Well, certainly, administration officials very encouraged by the depth of the public support. Our own polling here at CNN shows very similar numbers. A rally around the president is not an uncommon trend in public opinion at a time like this.

One of the reasons the administration -- you've seen the president and other senior administration officials continue to urge patience -- is they are concerned, however -- there is a concern in the administration that if the president reacted immediately with a military strike, A it might be ineffective; but B, there is a concern that there are still members of these terrorist cells in the United States. And there is a worry that there would some retaliation in the United States, perhaps in a major city, some way designed to try to undermine public support by having another horrific, terrorist act.

ZAHN: All right, thanks so much, John. We'll check in with you a little bit later on this morning.

I want to share with you the headline in the "New York Post" this morning. It reads "War". Underneath that a caption, a quote from the president from his radio address yesterday -- "We are at war; you will be asked for resolve, for the conflict will not be easy. You will be asked for your strength because the course to victory may be long. Those who make war against the United States have chosen their own destruction."

Right now, I'm going to head back to Atlanta where Miles O'Brien is standing by. I think, Miles, David Ensor, in his report, gave Americans a pretty good idea of how difficult this campaign will be and how prolonged it might be. I understand you can graphically reinforce that thought this morning.

O'BRIEN: Yes, let's do a little geography lesson, if you will, Paula and take a look at this map of Afghanistan and its surrounding region here for just a moment. David Ensor mentioned Peshawar. Peshawar is right there and it is attached to Kabul by the famous Khyber Pass. The Khyber Pass is the scene of many military operations over the course of human history all the way from Alexander the Great through the British occupation of India. This has been a significant place. It -- at some places, is as narrow as about 10 feet but it is a key mountain pass through the mountains, which ring Afghanistan and in particular Kabul.

Kabul itself is 5,900 feet in elevation, one of the highest capitol cities in the world. The entire country of Afghanistan is about the size of Texas. Now, it is -- you've got Iran to the west, you've got Pakistan, of course, we've been telling you, to the east and you have Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan and Tajikistan to the north.

This distance, right here, is very crucial because if you could put an aircraft carrier out here perhaps for some sort of military intervention, the distance from here just to the border across Pakistan is about 400 miles. If you wanted to try to engage in some kind of bombing raid as far as Kabul, that's about 700 miles. That's significant because that is taxing the limits of a fighter aircraft's range at that point. As a matter of fact, it's pretty much out of range. So it's very limited as to how much military activity you can engage in from aircraft carriers.

And given the political situations immediately around Afghanistan, the possibility exists -- actually, it's a -- it would be very difficult for the U.S. to stage any sort of attack from that soil.

So the military situation is not an easy one. It's very remote. And on top of all of that, you know, we've been told there's a dozen or so camps that are linked perhaps to Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan. As David Ensor just reported, that border, that Khyber Pass is porous enough that those camps may have moved into Pakistan.

Just identifying targets will be very difficult, will acquire a tremendous amount of human intelligence and may put the -- may make it difficult for the administration to come up with some concrete response to all of this -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right, thanks so much Miles. Joining me right now is General Tom McInerney, the former assistance vice chief of staff for the United States Air Force.

Welcome, sir. Thank you very much for being with us this morning.

GEN. TOM MCINERNEY (RET) U.S. AIR FORCE: Good morning, Paula.

ZAHN: Aren't we, in fact, fighting two wars right now, one at home, one overseas?

MCINERNEY: Absolutely and we've got to fight them both simultaneously.

ZAHN: And how does the United States do that?

MCINERNEY: Well, you have to -- and we're in the process of organizing it right now and they're doing it very quickly. The one inside the United States will be done by the FBI and other federal and state city law enforcement officials. The one overseas now is one we're positioning for. Those distances that Miles just described are long. We do have the assets to do that and probably the star asset is the B-2 that proved so effectively during Kosovo because it's stealthy; it has great range and it can drop many bombs, 16 bombs, simultaneously at 16 different targets. So that will probably be the star of our force.

We have cruise missiles from B-52s and other aircraft. But we can reach those targets. They do stretch the short-range fighters. And that's why the airspace in Pakistan is so important to us.

ZAHN: Could you put into perspective for us, this morning, where other U.S. assets are and how they might be used in any attack down the road?

MCINERNEY: Well, Diego Garcia will be the island in the Indian Ocean -- will be very important as it was during the Iranian affair many years ago. We -- and because that's owned by the United Kingdom, we have a very good relationship there.

There are also assets in Thailand. As you know, the B-2s flew out of their home station and they can easily do that. We'd probably like to forward deploy them. The B-52s could come out of Diego Garcia or in other countries in the Middle East if they're allowed.

China and Russia are very important in this equation. They're important because they have intelligence, airspace and they can play a role enabling us to hit targets there.

But we have the assets, Paula, right now to do that.

ZAHN: All right, if you would, give us your understanding of when the earliest could be that you would see any kind of strike?

MCINERNEY: Well, Paula, we could hit them today. The fact is is we're not going to do that because the president is mobilizing. You've got the War Resolution, which I have a bit of problem with because they focus just on September 11 and I think they should not have put that caveat in there. We're marshalling our forces out in that direction.

As I said, we could do it today. But as John pointed out so well, we want to do it right. This administration is not interested in hitting a milk factory and getting self-gratification. This is a very long-term effort. And so I suspect, you know, you're looking sometime between 30 and 45 days maybe. The president asked for patience and we need patience.

Remember, this is an eight or 10-year war. This is not just getting rid of Osama Bin Laden. This is going to take a long time. And the American people have got to be patient and understanding.

ZAHN: You, no doubt, have heard some of the criticism coming from senators, from representatives. Senator Shelby, I think, has been the most outspoken when it comes to criticizing the failure of U.S. military intelligence.

Is U.S. military intelligence sophisticated enough to even figure out where Osama Bin Laden is now, where he has reportedly moving from cave to cave?

MCINERNEY: Well, this is a very difficult problem. I think they have that capability. We have to use some more leading edge technology, enabling technologies. And we have to deploy them quickly. We have to use the assets that we have currently. And I think Senator Shelby has pointed out some very important shortcomings. But you must remember that, for the last eight years, we have not put the resources into defense and -- particularly into terrorism that need to be there.

ZAHN: Well, I wanted to read to you now, General, the exact quote of Senator Shelby. He said -- quote -- "we have got to be a hell of a lot more aggressive." Our James Woolsey, the former director of the CIA saying -- quote -- "Washington has absolutely undergone a seat change in thinking this week."

You just brought up the point of technical intelligence. There is also criticism out there that there has been too much emphasis on technical intelligence. In fact, I heard General Schwarzkopf say that the other day that in fact, what the United States needs is more human intelligence.

MCINERNEY: Well, let me -- let's ...

ZAHN: Do you have a response to that?

MCINERNEY: Yes, let's put it this way, we haven't overdone the technical intelligence. We have just completely ignored the human intelligence. The Congress emasculated human -- as we call it, human intelligence with the church committee in the 70s and 80s and also with the problems that we later had done in Central America. So we have, frankly, emasculated it.

The Congress has now got to get us back in the human intelligence, take off the barriers that we have. But you know it takes you three to five to eight years to really get an effective human intelligence. So we can say we want to improve human intelligence and go after those people but that doesn't happen overnight. But we must rebuild our human intelligence if we are going to fight terrorism effectively. There's no question about it. And I strongly endorse Senator Shelby's comments.

ZAHN: All right, one last, quick question for you. President Bush, for the first time, saying publicly although Secretary of State Powell has said this several days ago that Osama Bin Laden is the prime suspect. Do you have faith, given the level of support that America is getting from its allies, that Osama Bin Laden will either be turned over, found or killed?

MCINERNEY: Yes, I strongly believe that I -- and I think it's going to happen rather quickly but I put in that caveat again. Osama Bin Laden is the birthday boy today but there are a lot more people behind him that we have to go to get to route out the basic, fundamental terrorism that this nation and the free world is fighting. We will get Osama Bin Laden. There's no question about it but it's all those that follow him. And that's why you can't look at this as just Osama Bin Laden and relax.

ZAHN: All right, I think the president has made that very clear in the remarks he made yesterday in his radio address.

General McInerney, thank you very much for joining us this morning. We appreciate your insights.

MCINERNEY: Thanks, Paula.

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