Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Talkback Live

Guests Discuss American Response to Terrorist Attacks

Aired September 20, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Well, good afternoon and welcome to "TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT."

Afghanistan's clerics want the Taliban to ask Osama bin Laden to leave the country. But White House spokesman Ari Fleischer says, essentially, that's not good enough. He says, it's time for action, not words.

And as we know, the U.S. military is already on the move as are thousands of Afghan refugees amassing along the Pakistan border.

In just a moments we will talk with a retired general who would like to see an international Islamic army.

But first we will talk with CNN's Nic Robertson. He is now out of Afghanistan and in Quetta, Pakistan.

Nic, what is the latest word on the Taliban's decision on the status of Osama bin Laden? Have we heard anything yet?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The ball really at the moment is in the court of the Taliban supreme leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar. We certainly know that he's been talking with key government ministers around him, including his foreign minister today.

We understand from an analyst inside Afghanistan, a very well- placed analyst, it has to be said, that the leader Mullah Omar was looking to see what the White House reaction would be to the request by the clerics. So far there has not been a decision by Mullah Omar. It is up to him whether or not to basically rubber stamp what the clerics have said. And it is unlikely, he are advised, that he would go against them; after all, these are the clerics that really did put him in charge of the Taliban. So he would be unlikely to go against them.

Over here in Pakistan, the Pakistan foreign minister saying that this was a significant move by the Taliban. And a senior Taliban source told me today as well that this was, could be potentially a turning point. Certainly, we've never seen anything like this coming from Afghanistan that would indicate they might want Osama bin Laden to leave. This is significant.

BATTISTA: If asking bin Laden to voluntarily leave the country, is that pretty much the same, though, as asking him to surrender? Because, really, what are his options?

ROBERTSON: In Afghan culture, asking him to leave is essentially the same as saying, your time in this country is up. Afghan culture is extremely hospitable, in fact they've called Osama bin Laden a guest for the last five years and have always said that Islamic and Afghan hospitality would prevent them asking him to leave. Now, essentially, the clerics in the country are saying, your time is up. It's time for him to go. So that is significant. Where he would go and would he go where he could face justice, that obviously is a very, very big question at this time. And there's no indication, no clarification yet from the Taliban leadership, if that's what they would push him to do. Would they pretend to turn their backs, or would they effort to turn him -- push him in the direction of a country that could bring him to justice.

BATTISTA: Let me take a question from the audience for you.

Mukanda (ph), go ahead.

QUESTION: My question is, do you think the Pakistani government's decision to back U.S. in this fight against terrorism is fully backed by the public opinion in that country?

ROBERTSON: Well, there are, as you likely know, 140 million Pakistanis in Pakistan, and certainly those that would closer to supporting the Taliban and the Afghan people in the west of Pakistan, in the northwest frontier province, north of here. And in Baluchistan, to the south of here, the Taliban ethnic Pashtuns. There are many ethnic Pashtuns here in Pakistan.

It would be fair to say that likely many of the middle classes in Pakistan are going to back their president. President Musharraf has thrown his weight fully behind the United States. Certainly there are clerics in the Muslim parties here who draw perhaps the support of a million, two million or so people who have been calling for demonstrations, who have called for a day of strike tomorrow, the sabbath day for Muslims here, Friday.

So perhaps a key indicator of how much support there will be will be just to see how widely supportive that call for a strike is on Friday.

BATTISTA: Nic Robertson, thank you once again. We never have enough time with you. We appreciate your input into this.

Joining us now is Brigadier General Pete Dawkins, U.S. Army retired. He is currently a Wall Street executive.

General Dawkins, thank you for joining us.

BRIG. GEN. PETE DAWKINS, U.S. ARMY, (RET.): Bobbie, happy to be here.

BATTISTA: As we know, the military is on the move. We did hear Defense Secretary Rumsfeld say today that he himself was even struggling with a new vocabulary for this war on terrorism. How would you define it?

DAWKINS: Well, I think one of the distinctions that deserves to be made is between some of the military combat, the battles, if you will, which are being prepared for right now, and the extended and persistent war against terrorism. It is new, it's different, we are going to have to not only find new vocabularies, but I think, Bobbie, we're going to have to find new ways of thinking about things, we're going to have to change the rules in order to be successful in this kind of environment. And again, so I think...

BATTISTA: In what way? In what way would you like to change those rules? .

DAWKINS: Well, in a variety of ways. But think of it this way, you know, we were attacked, it was mass murder, it was a heinous attack. Just to put it in perspective, if the number of people who are missing and presumably dead from the attacks on September 11th had been soldiers, then this would have been the largest single day loss in the history of the American military. Antietam was the largest one day loss in 1862. So this is an event of immense enormity.

That attack really obliges us to punish the people responsible for it, and the perpetrators of it, Osama bin Laden, and others. But that part of our reaction is only the opening shot of what we now are being called, the president's calling, the first war of the 21st century, the war against terrorism. Where really what our goal is, is to dismember, disassemble and destroy a global network of terrorists organizations that is probably in 60 or 70 countries.

So the whole notion of a war, some people are applying that to mean just the mobilization that's going on now and these initial strikes. That would be a mistake. This is a long, possibly-10-year enterprise to rid the world of the organized, integrated, systematic terrorist organizations that were behind this September 11th event.

BATTISTA: I don't think we can define this enough. Many of military analysts or Soviet general has stated that conventional warfare would be virtually useless in -- particularly in a country like Afghanistan. Would you agree with that? So how do we go about this?

DAWKINS: Well, Bobbie, exactly. I mean, we should have learned, and I think we have learned from the Russians' experience of 10 years in Afghanistan, that the last thing we want to do is to get bogged down in a land war in Afghanistan. Having said that, we cannot have some kind of clinical-cruise-missile-standoff-rocket-attack kind of run-in. This is going to have be a matter of going after bin Laden and other, where appropriate, terrorist organizations, some of them within Afghanistan, by stiletto-like attacks by commandos, high- intensity, low-scale engagements to go after and root out some of that infrastructure.

But on the other hand, there is an obligation, if we are going to effectively wage this war, to help the Islamic world eliminate those governments who persist in supporting and nurture terrorism. So if the Taliban, as an example, in Afghanistan persists in their current position, then they're going to have to be replaced.

And it would be much better in my view than for us to try to do that unilaterally by Western and interestingly Christian forces, it would be better to help foster an international Islamic army, who could fight alongside us and where we would mobilize the moderate Islamic nations to participate with us as partners in this war against terrorism.

BATTISTA: That would take the heat off moderate Arab nations as well. Let me take a question for you, General, from Sam in Florida -- Sam, go ahead.

SAM: Yes, I'd like to know, I think President Bush waited too long, they want him out of Afghanistan. And the other question is: how do we know that the people we're asking to help us won't turn on us when we get there?

DAWKINS: Two very good questions, very different ones, of course. I think all of us were horrified by the experience of the attacks. It is a very personal thing to me. My daughter was four or five blocks away actually doing some TV filming when the first plane hit. Fortunately she was fine and I, for two years had an office on the 102nd floor of the south tower of the World Trade Center where no one survived.

So this is a very personal thing and we wanted some king of immediate ability to punish the people who did this awful act, but the fact is, we have got to be able to have intelligence, we have to build some broad base of international support behind what we do.

We then have to be able to identify real targets, not just to do something to demonstrate, but to actually go in and punish the people responsible and that takes time. So, I for one don't believe we have waited too long. I think we are mobilizing now. Clearly, action is in progress and it simply takes longer than you would want.

BATTISTA: I have an e-mail question, and this, by the way, it come up during the Gulf War, as well. Bill in Beaverton, Oregon, advises us, "Please stop reporting the activity of our military forces. Could this information help the enemy?"

DAWKINS: Well I think there is a balance there. I think we have been discrete in the announcements made so far. There -- it doesn't reveal much to say that we are forward-deploying forces, that we are preparing the base for taking action in the general area of the world, not exclusively in the region of Afghanistan, but in that general region of the world.

But it would be a terrible mistake if we were to report things that really did compromise the safety of our soldiers. That is a prime and principle concern. I don't see any particular danger in that at this stage.

On thing I would mention...

BATTISTA: I just guess here that also too, the Pentagon is not going to tell us anything they don't want us to know. They are very aware of the fact that 24-hour networks like CNN in particular are watched by people overseas, leadership overseas, they are aware of that.

DAWKINS: Surely. And one thing about this administration and I think the team in Washington has done an absolutely first-rate job so far, is that they are pros and they know and have experience in this and you are seeing that in the maturity of how the steps are being taken.

But I think another point, if I could, and that is, this is not business as usual. The world has changed. We are a big strong powerful country. The future is bright, we will survive this but we have got to change the way we do things.

BATTISTA: Let me interrupt here quickly, General. I am sorry because I have to make this break here. We will be back in a moment with a Congressman and a Senator. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: A couple of e-mails in Florida here. John says, "Please remember that terrorists are now in the U.S.A. We must clean our own house before we can clean a house in a foreign country. Terrorists are among our own domestic domain and this should not be overlooked even with the military buildup in the Islam region."

Bill in Cape Coral says, "This war on terrorism should be fought as though it were a criminal conspiracy, which is. Let's use our special forces and such and work on the sly in deep cover, like the terrorists are operating. Let's fight fire with a better organized bigger fire."

Jose, in the audience, I didn't mean to cut you off. I wanted to get to you before we went to the break. You are a member the Air Force?

JOSE: Yes, I am a former Air Force officer. On of United States' strengths, our strength is conventional warfare. That is where we know the enemy, we can use air power, sea power, and land power. We don't have that situation in Afghanistan. We are going into a place where we don't know the territory, we are not good at guerrilla warfare, we never have been, and that is why we lost in Vietnam. And if we go into Afghanistan with ground forces, we are going to lose lot of soldier, a lot of men and women.

And what is unfortunate about our nation and many other nations, it is the young people, its our kids that fight our wars. It is the 17, 18, 19-year-old kids that die out there.

BATTISTA: All right, Jose, thank you very much. Joining us now is House Minority Whip, David Bonior. We will have Senator Sam Brownback with us in just a moment.

Congressman Bonior, the president speaks to the nation tonight at nine. What are you hoping to hear? REP DAVID BONIOR (D), MINORITY WHIP: I think the president will talk about the unity of the nation, the coming together of the country, the spirit and the heroism of the country. And then I think he will move from there onto some really important issues, the safety of Americans and our airways and other paths and walks of life.

He will talk about the economy and the effects this has had on the economy, and how we are trying to address that. They airline crisis or problem I should say and other pieces of the economy that have been affected.

And then of course he will talk about the military concerns that we have now and probably ask the country to be patient, reiterate that this is not conventional, that there are difficult choice here and that we may be operating for a longer period of time than some may wish in trying to root out this evil. And finally, Bobbie, I think perhaps what we will hear from the president is the need to talk to a broader audience, the world community and try to get our allies to come together and participate with us as we march forward in this endeavor.

BATTISTA: Congressman, what do you think we should do in response to this terrorist attack?

BONIOR: I think we need to put all of the forces that we have together to try to figure out where these people are. We should administer justice is that is severe, and to the extent that it is swift it should be swift, but it should not be done without having thought it through having been planned well and without really understanding the lessons of history.

This will take some patience, but I think we have the intelligence, the manpower, we have the unity in the country to make a severe dent in this kind of intrusion into the life of, not only our country, but citizens around the world who want to lead a peaceful and a just life.

BATTISTA: What kind of timelines are we working against here? Once you get a definitive response from the Taliban about the status of Osama bin Laden, how might that change the dynamic?

BONIOR: Well the response so far is not a good response from the clerics in the Taliban. The question of or urging him -- or the issue of urging him is not sufficient. We need to do more than just wait for them to surrender him or to have him urged to surrender.

That was a formula, Bobbie, that was tried for the last several years through General Musharraf in Pakistan who was trying to get the Taliban to do that very thing. And they did not comply. They obfuscated, they took their time and obviously he's still been there. So the timeline is that he needs to be surrendered soon and if that is not forthcoming then there will be a penalty to pay for it.

BATTISTA: Congressman David Bonior, thank you for your time this afternoon. We appreciate it. We will take a break here and -- rejoin us if you will. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: With us now is Senator Sam Brownback, a Kansas Republican. He is chairman of the Near East and South Asian Affairs Subcommittee. Senator, thank you.

SEN. SAM BROWNBACK (R-KS), NEAR EAST AND SOUTH ASIAN AFFAIRS SUBCOMMITTEE: Happy to join you.

BATTISTA: What are you expecting to hear from the president?

BROWNBACK: I expect him to connect the dots. We have a big set of things that are going. We have been attacked as a nation a terrorist attack. He is going to respond to what we are going to do towards that nation they that may harbor terrorists or to terrorists as well.

He is going to connect what we need to do domestically here to support things like the airline industries. What we are doing to defend ourselves at home from further potential terrorist attacks, what we are doing with other nations to have this global network against terrorism come into place.

So I think he is going to connect those together in a comprehensive speech and I think that is an important thing for him to do for the nation.

BATTISTA: How specific do you think he will be about our military response, and will it be enough for the American people?

BROWNBACK: I doubt a very specific response about what we are going to be doing militarily. I think it is too early for us to do that. We have not put together the international network yet of foreign countries that are going to support us in this effort. And I think he needs to wait to hear what we are going to get from another countries and build that up as we move troops and munitions and planes into position.

BATTISTA: There are some conservatives in Washington who feel like Saddam Hussein should be included in any sort of target program if you will, whatever that is to be in the future. Do you feel that we should -- you personally -- feel that we should be casting a wider net? Or do you think we should be focusing on one individual at a time, like an Osama bin Laden?

BROWNBACK: It strikes me that most successful route in one step at a time. We are best when we focus on one target, and then if we have to pivot to hit another target we so do it. But if you go at multiple targets, you may not hit either one of them. Although, if we can find tracks that lead back to Saddam Hussein in association with this terrorist attack on our country, that may change that whole equation and we may move much more rapidly towards a major response towards Saddam Hussein.

You know, we have been dealing with Saddam Hussein for ten years now and he continues to be a thorn in our side. And we should deal, finally, at some point in time here in the near future with Saddam Hussein.

BATTISTA: How do your constituents feel back in Kansas?

BROWNBACK: A couple of feelings. One is, they are clearly very patriotic towards the country. You are seeing a lot of flags flying around. You are seeing people taking out billboards, putting God Bless America up. So it is a patriotic time. It is a time of real building and bonding together and unity.

And it is a time of also people -- fearful and saying should I be going out to major meetings, should I be doing some of these things out and about?

And that is the thing we need to break, because if we remain in this fearful, spooked nature then the terrorist has won. And we cannot continue that way. We need to go forward with our normal lives as best we can.

BATTISTA: Let me switch gears for just a moment because I know you are on an aviation subcommittee as well I believe. What is the status of the government bailing out the airline industry?

BROWNBACK: That was the hearing I just came from. And we are having a discussion now about the level of that, the nature of that, how long it would need to go on and certainly how much. I think you can expect that there will be some type of bailout of the airline industry taking place because the industry has been really been crushed with what events took place on September 11. Now the size and scale of that and the nature of that bailout is very much in flux.

BATTISTA: Senator Sam Brownback, we thank you.

BROWNBACK: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Fred in Illinois -- Fred.

FRED: Yes, Afghanistan and the Taliban have been harboring this man for five years already. If we don't make a strong point, we just let these people turn him away, we are proving to other countries that they can support things like this. We need to go in there, prove the strong point that we will not tolerate people funding activities like this. And you have got to remember that this is a business like any other business.

Money comes in but no money is coming out. Somebody is supporting these people. We need to go in there and make the strong point that no one will be funding people like this. If we go after Osama bin Laden as one person, we are martyrizing him.

BATTISTA: OK, Fred. Thanks very much, appreciate you viewpoint. We will take a break here and carry on with the general right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BATTISTA: We have a group of young people in the audience today. Let me get a little bit of input from them. Ashford (ph), what do you think?

ASHFORD: I didn't hear the question.

BATTISTA: I was asking what you think should be America's response should be.

ASHFORD: I think we should act now while we have momentum. And the biggest fear I have and lot of people have is that we will be too patient. We are going to think things out too much and then we are going to wind up not doing anything. I do think we should think but I think we should act now while we have momentum.

BATTISTA: And now to Garrett (ph).

GARRETT: Our goal is to remove the threat of terrorism from us as a nation and we can't just to out and kill every terrorist that is out there. The only thing we can do is to remove the source of their hatred towards us. And I think the best way to do that would be to set an example of peace, not to take revenge upon them.

BATTISTA: Thank you. Hold on just a second, Mark. I want to bring General Dawkins back into the conversation. I guess it was something you said a few moments ago about -- it sort of brings to mind the question of intelligence.

Since the intelligence community did not see this coming and it was something that clearly had to have been in the planning process for quite some time, do you think we have enough intelligence to do what we are hoping to accomplish?

DAWKINS: Bobbie, we are in a weakened position. There is no question about it. We have taken this country, unfortunately, over the last half a dozen years, a dozen years, has systemically taken apart our human intelligence piece of our intelligence organization, believing, I guess, that technical intelligence, satellites and whatnot could do the job.

At one point, you may recall, that Congress refused to fund the CIA until the CIA certified that no one that they dealt with had a criminal record. Well, unfortunately, people that are good spies tend to be criminals and so I think that was shortsighted, not that we don't need technical intelligence, but we have a challenge. We have got to rebuild a worldwide human intelligence network so that we have better access to the kinds of information that we really need on order to be able to not react to these kinds of crimes, but preempt them and to interrupt them.

In fact, I think that is a terribly important part of this as well. We have to make some reassessments of our justice concepts so that it is legitimate to take preemptive action, not having to wait always until a crime has been committed. When people are out there and we know it, and they are designing heinous mass murder attacks and we have credible evidence that they are going to do it, we have to have a system that legitimizes the ability to take steps to prevent that.

BATTISTA: Quick comment here from the audience, need to be quick.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn't Pearl Harbor. Military hit military at that time. This is terrorist against civilians. These people live in our backyards. Their kids went to school with our kids. We gave them presents at Christmas time. We exchanged things with them. They were sleepers. This is where we need to start looking at this.

BATTISTA: Thank you. And thank you General Pete Dawkins. Hope to see you again. And our thanks to our studio audience. We will be back tomorrow with another edition of TALKBACK LIVE: America Speaks Out. Please join us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com