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CNN Talkback Live

Talkback Live: America Speaks Out

Aired September 21, 2001 - 15:10   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Welcome to "TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT."

The president was on target last night when he said: Americans want to know how will we fight and win this war.

While many people still think of tanks and bombs. Jeff "Skunk" Baxter is thinking, hit them with culture. Now, you may know Jeff as the guitarist for 1970s band Steely Dan and the Doobie Brothers. Today, Jeff is a defense analyst with the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies.

Also with us today, TV talk show host Montel Williams, who, among other things, is a former decorated Naval intelligence officer.

And Major General Donald Sheppard. He retired from the Pentagon in 1998, where he headed the National Guard and is an expert on U.S. air defense and inland security.

Welcome to all of you.

I want it start with Jeff, if i could quickly, because you floated this idea of a bunch of high-ranking military folks just a couple of days ago, the idea of using culture as a weapon. What do you mean by that?

JEFF BAXTER, POTOMAC INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: Well, Joseph and I wrote a wonderful article in "Foreign Affairs Quarterly" a few years ago talking about the that real power that America had was its culture. We're military strong, economically strong, but the culture was so strong. I believe the number one show in Tehran at the moment is "Baywatch." Now, the idea being that we have such an incredible ability to project and to engineer perception that maybe we should start looking at this as a part of a menu in this brand new what we call asymmetrical style of warfare, where everything that you have has an application.

BATTISTA: Logistically, how would you make that work? Where would you send it and how would you send it and what would you send?

BAXTER: Well, there are many ways to do it because the media is so all pervasive in the world now. We can send messages via print, via satellite, cell phones, radios, arts. There is so many different ways to do it. Everybody seems to have the ability to pick up "Baywatch."

BATTISTA: So you are saying bomb them with "Baywatch"?

BAXTER: Not bomb them with "Baywatch."

BATTISTA: I know. I couldn't resist.

BAXTER: What I'm saying is that America has, even if it doesn't understand it in itself, America has figured out how to do perception engineering and the way to convince people to come into their own culture and their own ideas. Let's use this as one of the tools of a very asymmetrical method of fighting war.

BATTISTA: General, it is true that this is a different kind of war than we ever fought before, and it will be fought on a number of different fronts. Is Jeff on something here?

MAJOR GEN. DONALD SHEPPARD, (RET.): I think Jeff is on to something. It is a unique concept, but basically, I think the message to the world and from our president is we are coming, and were coming not just with our military, but with our politicians, our bankers, our lawyers, our law enforcement, were coming with our cyber geeks and we are coming.

BATTISTA: Montel, you have been in the trenches with some of the troops during past conflicts. Is our military ready to fight this kind of war?

MONTEL WILLIAMS, TALKSHOW HOST: Without a doubt. And I think that anybody who would think that we aren't ready and the troops that are out there on the front line right now aren't thinking to themselves, one, I want it come home, but two, I will do everything I need to do to adhere to the oath of office that I took when I entered the service. And every single person that's serving today took an oath of office that begins with: I do solemnly swear and affirm that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And that's the reason why I think right now it is so important, Bobbie, for you to continue to do programs like this, we can see all the young people in your audience there.

This is a generation that doesn't understand that there is a price to freedom. And that price many generations before them have paid, and now is it's opportunity for us to step up to the plate and do the same thing. It cost us to be as free as we were last Monday before those planes crashed into the World Trade Center. We all sat around, enjoyed the prosperity that rest of the world has never ever seen. But for us to continue that, we need this generation. I interviewed some young people this last week, some kids who were at Stuyvesant High School who right now are fearful of the fact that, you know, their piers, those people who graduated with them last year may be drafted and have to serve. But guess what? You live those first 18 years of your life, basically, not fearing anything other than what your next job would be. Now it's time to hold in the back of our souls and minds, there's a fear. This country needs to stand and it needs to stand for another century, and we need this generation to make sure we do so.

BATTISTA: Well, let me talk to a few of those, a few members of that generation.

Benjamin, go ahead. What are your thoughts?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree with Mr. Williams. I think that freedom does comes with a price. And in this case, to be free from the threat of terrorism, we are going to have to invest some American life to make sure that this doesn't happen in the future. I think we need to eradicate this problem now, and to do that we're going to have to lose some lives to be free in the future.

BATTISTA: Nicholas.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, in our actions, for retaliation, I know I have served in the Air Force honorably myself, and I have a lot of friends who are still in the Air Force that I do keep in touch with. Everybody is afraid of what's going to happen. We don't want war. The younger generation, we don't want war. We don't want to have to go to war. Freedom is very important, and I think that in this situation, if we do retaliate, we have to understand what our freedom is and not take it away from others and oppress others by doing that.

BATTISTA: I think general, and Jeff too, what concerns not just the younger generation, but all of us, is we can't stress this enough in redefining this sort of war that we are fighting. They don't know what it is that they are getting into, and there are so many new fronts to it. But people who are expecting, for example, a mass bombing campaign in Afghanistan or an extensive ground war with massive troops, are those options even on the table in this sort of conflict?

SHEPPARD: Well, I tell you, we don't want it tell anybody what the options on the table are. We want them to wonder. But I find it so encouraging that our national command authority has not chosen to strike out irrationally in revenge. They're going to take their time, they're going to decide a time and place of their choosing what they're going to do, but it's going to be well thought out when we do it for the right effects.

BATTISTA: Jeff, in your view, what is the biggest mistake that the U.S. could make in fighting this conflict?

BAXTER: Well, I think there is a couple. One is it's not a religious war. It is a war with people who are using religion as a political tool. The other mistake we cannot make, is we have to make sure that we get at the center of their gravity. And to speak to the young man who was with the Air Force, the good news is, since the 19- year-olds who also fighting in the Air Force were in the garages inventing the Internet, doing -- inventing and dealing -- and giving us the technologies that we have now to deal with this, we are very lucky that we can fight this war, and we can fight it in a very, very modern way.

BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Jeff.

Jeff, go ahead.

CALLER: Yes, I hear a lot that we're attacking -- that the people against us are fundamentalist extremists. I don't think so. These people are middle aged, they're well educated, some of them doctors, some have master's degree. Some have been in Europe.

The people that...

BATTISTA: Why -- they could still be a fundamentalists.

CALLER: No, they're out drinking, they're out going to the strip bars. These guys are not the fundamentalist extremists that you're trying to portray them to be. These people are not idea logs. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) kamikaze pilots of Japanese, young, and they (UNINTELLIGIBLE) stuff pressed in their head. These people are doctors and lawyers. They are living with us right now.

BATTISTA: What's your point?

CALLER: Well, we got to know who we're going to go fight.

BATTISTA: Knowing the enemy.

WILLIAMS: Bobbie, can I -- let jump in right now.

BATTISTA: Yes, go ahead, Montel.

WILLIAMS: Because one of the things we need to do is this is a perfect opportunity for America to stop for a second and educate itself. We -- I have heard in the last couple of days, I have interviewed some young children that said we need to go bomb Afghanistan. But we have to stop for a second and think about: What is Afghanistan? So far, the education that most people in this country are getting are getting directly from news, and what we don't understand is that the Taliban only took charge in Afghanistan back in 1996.

And that's been after years and years and years and years of revolt and uprising and fighting in that country. Most Americans don't even know that. Most Americans don't even know that the majority of Afghanistan has been reduce to rubble already. It's against the law for people in that country to own a television, to listen to music. It's against the law right now for people -- for women in that country to work, to get an education.

They are fighting right now just at basic existence. So the mass populace doesn't even know in some ways what has gone on in this world, and we need to educate ourselves to understand who is our enemy and understand that even though you may have a degree, a doctor or associates -- I don't know, a bachelor of science degree, that doesn't mean that it has in some way shape or form voided your brain of the basic teachings that you learned when you were a child. And some of these people that are now striking out the day are the children of those that were killed or murdered 25 years ago. And they will continue to do so. So, this war is going to be just what president said.

And I have to say, just from my standpoint, I have to applaud the president last night. Not only was that a tremendous speech, but this is a man who in all of the detractors around the world who had everything that they had to say about him when he was running and about his ability to able to get his points across -- he stood before a nation last night, absolute resolve, absolutely dedicated to one thing and one thing only, and that was preserving our democracy that we have and making sure that nothing like this happens again.

And I think he needs to be applauded, and we need to educate ourselves so we can understand what it is he is talking about.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here -- and Mona?

MONA: Yes, I just wanted to say that I think that Montel made a very good point, but something else we have to understand is not just that the only information we are getting is from the news, but that the people that are seeing this information have no basis of knowledge of the Middle East in general. And so, that causes them to come to a snap judgment and make stereotypical analysis of what is going on.

And a lot of that you can see in the amount of backlash that we've gotten in the United States with all the Muslim Americans or even the Arab-Americans or even just the Middle Eastern Americans in general. People want to just take the two-minute bite that they see on television and assume that they know the 20 years of background that led up to even the Taliban. Do we even know what the governmental situation was that led up to what it is now? We have to understand that as a whole, we are an uneducated people.

BATTISTA: Mona is from Iran, by the way.

All right, I have to take a quick break here. We'll continue in just a moment. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: A couple of e-mails that have come in. Peter in Trinidad says: "Will going after the -- will going after bin Laden create more anger and hatred toward the West? I'm not suggesting the terrorists not be sought out and punished, but this would appear to be heading into a win-less war."

He brings up a point, general, in that I think one of the harder things for military and administration officials to do is to define victory in this conflict.

Yes, that is going to be very difficult, Bobbie. We have to be very careful not to go in there and bomb and Indiscriminately kill innocent civilians. We go to great lengths, even putting our soldiers, airmen and sailors at risk not to do that. SHEPPARD: We have to be very smart, but some of the consequences of this are that there are going to create anger in other places. But in my opinion, we have to be strong and do what we have to do. And we are not going at it alone in the United States, we have to do it with our international partners, and it appears to me that we are going to do that.

BATTISTA: Jeff, what do we do on the home front to keep ourselves safe while we may go through this period of sustained activity?

BAXTER: Well, in reaction to Mona's statement -- welcome to the world of the responsible citizen. We live in a country where we are expected as citizens when we vote, when we get involved, and we are supposed to be knowledgeable. You are supposed to do what it takes to make ourselves understand and be aware of the issues.

So welcome to that world. It is now time for everybody to take advantage of the fact that we live in the freest society in the world and take advantage of that. The problem that I see, of course, is that people, the poor Afghanis who have been living in a horrible situation for 20 years, don't have access to the information.

So it is up to us as American citizens and citizens of the free world to make ourselves knowledgeable of this so that we can support our government, so that we can support our military and support our citizens. And the more you know about the enemy and the more you know about the situation, the less the fear factor is in operation. And that's one of the things we can do at home.

BATTISTA: Well, Lindsay is in the process of educating herself. She has been talking to a bunch of Middle East experts at Emory and has some thoughts -- Lindsay.

LINDSAY: I agree that we really need to proceed carefully and that knowledge is the key, because a lot of what has been said in the public has been very indiscriminate toward Islam nations or all Muslims, and I think that is very, very dangerous. And I really do think we need to proceed with caution and not just jump into something that could potentially be very dangerous to many, many innocent people.

WILLIAMS: Bobbie, if I can open my big mouth again. I'm sorry...

BATTISTA: No, go ahead.

WILLIAMS: To the question of if we do something, do we open ourselves up to retaliation? The truth of the matter is, if we do nothing, this will continue. And I think, you know, the president stated very clearly last night, as he tried to make us all understand the level of terrorists that we are dealing with. He equated this to Nazism and fascism and totalitarianism. And if you remember after World War II, it took us 40, 50 years, we were still chasing down Nazis and people who were war criminals, and we are chasing them even until today. I think that's the message that needs to be sent across the world to those people who run these terrorist organizations. We may not get you today, but we, like the president said last night, we will not sleep, we will not stop until we do. And as long as they know that, maybe we can -- it is a sick thing to say, you know, a lot of former Nazis ran off to countries in South America and other places and hid out, and tried their best to live a basic life.

Well, I would rather have some terrorists trying their best to live a basic life rather than trying to blow up our buildings if they're in hiding. Let's keep them hiding, let's make them hide until they get to the corner of the earth where they can't hide anymore. But that's what we have to do.

BATTISTA: Lindsay in the audience wants to respond to the other Lindsay. Go ahead.

LINDSAY: Well, I think that we definitely should not be taking our time with this situation. If we take our time, then that's just giving the message to the terrorists that you can come into the United States and you can bomb our buildings and you kill our citizens and get away with it. If we don't take some action, whether it would be intelligence or bombing or what have you, then there's no repercussions, and that doesn't get us anywhere.

BATTISTA: You know what, I got to do this e-mail, because we get a couple of these at least every day, and this is one I always have to put to our military folks on the show. Carol in Florida says: "I'm disturbed by the instantaneous reporting of what the military is planning or doing. Do you realize that you may be putting those military men and women in more danger by breaking security?"

General, that is a common thought among people, that the media is doing that when -- I mean -- I had to say this again, yesterday too -- I mean, we are very careful about what we reveal. I might add the Pentagon does not tell us anymore than they want us to know.

SHEPPARD: OK, Bobbie, look, it is easy to beat up on the media. The Pentagon has clamped down and can't talk for obvious reasons. We don't reveal our operational details to put our people at risk.

It is important, however, that somebody, someone talked to the American public and let them know what it is going on. They are confused, they are afraid, and they need to know that their military and their leaders are strong. They need to know that they are steady, they need to know that they are smart and not indiscriminate.

And it is the role of us who know something about that to talk carefully, without revealing details that would put our soldiers and sailors and airmen at risk. And I think we can do that very responsibly. I think it's our role.

BATTISTA: And it's my role, it's my job to ask you questions that you will very, very quickly say, "I will not answer that. I cannot answer that."

SHEPPARD: Absolutely, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: OK. Lindsay -- another Lindsey wants to respond to that other Lindsey. Go ahead.

LINDSEY: Just to go by what she was saying, I agree a little bit with what she was saying, but I don't think that we should run into anything without thinking through very well. Because if we -- if we do go into something, then there could be repercussions, and people, innocent people, could die. Even though people are saying the likelihood of that happening isn't very -- you know, is not very likely, it still could happen. And so, I think we need to think about what we're doing before we do it.

WILLIAMS: Oh, Bobbie.

BAXTER: People have died already. Innocent people have died already. Is there -- can you tell me that there weren't any Muslims in the World Trade Center?

I realize that in the past we've sort of come to believe that war is now some sort of video game where you send a missile down a pipe on a video screen, and it sort of has become very antiseptic. Warfare is casualties. Warfare is blood. Warfare is sacrifice.

I believe in the pros from Dover, in the Pentagon and the people who are in our military. Their object is not death, their object is victory; but the road to victory is not very smooth.

LINDSEY: I don't think that killing more people is going to solve anything. I think that those people should go to jail; I very much think that. But I don't think that killing more people is going to solve -- there are still -- people are going to be dead either way. I don't think that that really solves things.

BAXTER: Go to jail? What do you do, set up a court somewhere in the world and you sentence them to community work? I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something.

WILLIAMS: See, Bobbie, this is part of the problem...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Can I get in there?

BATTISTA: Yes, go ahead.

WILLIAMS: Bobbie, this is part of the problem that we as a nation, I think -- and this is, we as adults in this society, have failed to at least pass on to our children. Our children were so inculcated and just completely inundated with how negative and how bad the Vietnam War was that we set up this political correctness thought in this country where we have basically taught our children a war will never happen again. And so we have generations of kids who are 17, 18, 19 years old right now today, can't fathom the thought of them having to put on a uniform themselves and having to pay the price for the freedom we have. But unfortunately, it's now time -- September 11 was the date that will go down in history as the day that America lost some of its innocence. And truthfully, it's time now time to get into the real world. Unfortunately, you can't fight a war these days with weapons that look like a video games, weapons that are laser beams that only hit one target. They are going to hit the wrong target.

Unfortunately last week the terrorists came after the wrong target and hit a lot of innocent children and babies. Does it make it right it kill more? No. But it makes it right to defend ourselves and our way of life. And unfortunately when it comes to that term, "war," that's what it is about. And it's going to take this generation to have to say, you know what, Montel, you know, you spent 22 years in the military fighting to defend this democracy, and you know what, we hoped we'd never have to do it. But guess what, Montel now is too old to go back down and volunteer again. So it's going to take people like yourselves to go do it, and you're going to have to step up to the plate because if you don't, your children will be sitting here wondering why you didn't.

BATTISTA: I've got hands up all over the place, but I've got to move on. I thank you all for joining us. Jeff Baxter, you'll have to come back and tell us the story about how you got from music to missile defense next time.

BAXTER: I want to know that myself.

BATTISTA: General Shepperd, thank you very much for joining us. And Montel Williams, a pleasure to have you with us, thank you.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Still ahead: Americans weigh in on the president's speech and this new America we're all living in. Stay there, we'll be back with radio talk show hosts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO AMERICA: ... the Democrats joining together to provide us an image of America's team. And that's what we all are right now; we're all Americans.

BATTISTA: Joe, you're getting a little bit, I think, less unity from your listeners?

JOE MADISON, WOL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, it's a very diverse group of people. We ran the gamut today and yesterday, but for the most part people thought it was a very strong speech. There's a sense of reality. We're going -- we're not going to war, we are at war. We are at war as of September 11.

There are people who suggest that we need to look at our relationships with other nations in the world. There are people who are already shipping out and leaving their families behind. We have people in our listening audience who lost three little young children.

But I think people, for the most part, I talked with Reverend Walter Fauntroy, former Congressman who represented the district. He said he gave the president 80 percent on the toughness and the approach and 20 percent he wished that he had talked more about our relationship to nations. And we're going to be reevaluating our relationships to countries like Sudan, Afghanistan, Iran, maybe even Cuba before it's all over with. There is going to be a realignment in this world.

BATTISTA: That could well be a good thing, I mean, that comes out of all of this. But are your listeners understanding what sort of conflict -- we were just talking about that with our three previous guests -- are they getting that, about what we're in for here?

CULLUM: I think they are, because my audience, and maybe they're different than Joe's -- we've been talking about the consequences of terrorism since I started the show over nine years ago, so this is something that is not foreign to them.

And frankly, they are more aware of what's been happening with Osama bin Laden -- we discussed him for the past three, four years. They're aware of the fact that Hamas has been in northern Virginia and in Texas. And they're also aware of the fact that, you know, we're looking -- somebody said, well, how do you declare war?

This is where I think the president has done a fantastic job, because this is a long-term process. You've got, for example, a stranger agreement here with some of these countries, in standing with us have to be concerned about the same sort of terrorism. For example, there are 30 cells of Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization just in Germany. We know that we -- back in 1998, 1999 Canada was concerned about the numbers of terrorist groups.

And we're talking -- we have to think about this in a much more sophisticated way. It's not just Hamas, it's Hezbollah, it's Tanzim, it's a whole variety and scope of different kinds of terrorists. So when you declare war on terrorists, you have to be really very specific. And I think my audience does get it, and the idea now is to make this country strong and fearless.

MADISON: I would say I don't think the nation gets it at this point in time. And I'll be quite candid: Donald Rumsfeld made a very interesting point; we may end up inventing an entirely new category -- a new vocabulary of language. This is not going to be the Gulf War, this is not going to be Vietnam. There is not going to be any D-Day invasion. Everyone in a war against terrorism is on the front line.

CULLUM: Absolutely.

MADISON: Just today in Washington, D.C. I read a story about where the FBI is suggesting that -- and I hate to say this because I don't want to cause panic, but it was in the news -- that there may be attacks for September 22; that's tomorrow. We suggested here in Washington, D.C. that there are water reservoirs, and nobody is protecting the water reservoir. There are no troops around water reservoirs.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Hold that thought Blanquita, because I'm pushing the break here. So let me take a break and we'll continue in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me find out a little bit from the audience what they thought about the speech last night -- Madux (ph)?

MADUX: To be honest with you, I was quite shocked. I was shocked, and I thought he did a very good job. And I'll tell you why I was shocked, because I remember the speech he gave at the inauguration -- it was very unimpressive. And several other speeches he has given in the past have been very unimpressive. So, I was quite shocked last night, and I got to say that he was very -- he was very informative, very direct, and I was very impressed.

CULLUM: Bobbie, you know, when times get tough, the tough get going. You see a lot of courage and you see courage and leadership, and I think he is demonstrating that he's going to be a powerful leader.

Can I can refer back to something that Joe was talking about, if that's all right?

BATTISTA: Yeah, quickly, and then I want to run something else past you.

CULLUM: I just want to say that with my audience, what we've been doing is we've been doing a rethinking of being an American. We're not going to be like the Red Coats during the Revolutionary War. We're teaching Americans and talking about this on the show, how to become active and participants in the community.

I mean, for example, suggesting that school kids around this country start getting the pictures of all these young men and women in the reserves and the firefighters and putting them up on their school boards to recognize they're the heroes, and not to be afraid to pray for them, and support them, because they are the role models that make this country great!

And our young American broadcasters around the country -- real quickly -- are the young kids who are broadcasting in college campuses, the YAB, and we're encouraging them to do positive, pro- American radio programs because they are the young people that will be fighting and dying, and they need to know what's at stake for this country and the history of why this country is so great.

BATTISTA: Let me run this past you, because I know this will be fodder for our shows and radio talk shows in the coming weeks. At least three Arab American men were removed from a Northwest Airlines flight yesterday -- I don't know if you saw this story -- after the crew raised concerns about security. An airline spokesman says Northwest employees escorted the men off the flight, and they were questioned by local law enforcement officers. The airlines says the men were allowed to take a later flight.

The men told reporters they were removed because other passengers refused to fly with them on board, and certainly they said they felt they had been discriminated against.

MADISON: Bobbie, I mean, in your audience right now, I think I saw a young lady who is Iranian. You have people in that audience of all colors and hues. The one thing we've got to be very careful about is that the fervor of patriotism must run through our veins as Americans of all colors, but the fervor of equality still has to be in our heart. What makes this country great is not the ability to make war, but our constitution, and this is going to be very difficult. We don't have a great track record when it comes to this, because we tend to demonize those that we fight and we put a face on them.

CULLUM: Well...

MADISON: Well, it's true!

CULLUM: Joe!

MADISON: Wait a minute, let me make a point. You see, when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma bomb -- I mean, the Oklahoma federal building, no one went around this country refusing white men with crew cuts ability to get on board planes.

CULLUM: All right, give me a chance here, Joe, because let me tell you something -- we can do that, and we can go back and revisit it. But I think that the president of the United States, shows like yours and mine, programs like this one on CNN, we're taking the extra step to try to tell people, "calm down. Now, look, let's get a grip here, let's think smart."

And I think the majority of Americans are going to be very fair and very careful. Let's not create a hysteria here. You are going to see incidences, I guarantee you, because nobody is perfect. But overall, the American fabric of this country is pretty darn fair, and I'd put this country up against any other with fairness and people...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience quickly on this, you guys, they want to weigh in on this. Kate, you say that it's not right, but you can understand?

KATE: Yeah, I can understand, because I am not Middle Eastern, but I look Middle Eastern, and I have been stopped in Washington, been searched on several occasions. When I cross the border into Canada -- because I live near Canada -- I get stopped, I get brought into customs, asked for my passport. I have to go through a lot of things that other people don't have to go through. But I do -- I do understand, and these were things that happened prior to the World Trade Center bombing, because people have this...

BATTISTA: Let me go quickly up here to Jezmit (ph).

JEZMIT: Jezmit. Yes, talking about discrimination -- the Sikh community has been pretty hit hard by hate crimes too. I just want my fellow Americans to know that, you know, just because I wear a turban and have a beard, I'm not necessarily a terrorist. I am an American too and I take great pride in this nation, and I want to fight against this terrorism too. I just want my fellow Americans to know that.

MADISON: And let me -- let me -- he's absolutely right. And let me make one -- one quick point -- one quick point here. This time -- you know, we are in difficult times. This brings out the best, like we're seeing in New York, and brings out the worst in people.

But when you start talking about the American fervor, here you had in the last three days, Jerry Falwell sitting up here saying God is punishing us because we have liberals, because we have homosexuals, because we have abortionists. Here you had Dr. Laura saying the reason there was a terrorist attack is because there are women in the military. Here you even had, if I'm not mistaken, the coach of -- the head football coach of the University of Virginia saying...

(CROSSTALK)

MADISON: Let me finish my point, you're interrupting me. Let me finish. Who had the audacity to say that he isn't worried about his plane being hijacked because no one that looks Arab is on the plane.

CULLUM: But wait a minute...

MADISON: This is crazy!

CULLUM: But Joe, let me just say this -- and you had Bill Maher who was a jerk on "Politically Incorrect." And you know what? You are right, they're all wrong. So we need to learn a lesson from that, and from people who are saying things like that -- you don't sit there and weigh whether they are right or they're left, whether they're white or they're black, you just say they're wrong, and we are not going to put up with it.

MADISON: But the problem is that they're on national television.

CULLUM: All right, so you have a chance as American citizen -- you are not wimps, you are not couch potatoes, you have a right, you have a voice. People don't have to sit back and being victims. And on my show -- excuse me, Joe, it's my turn, it's my turn now. I teach my people, and I tell them, don't sit back and be a couch potato. You're not a victim. You are an American. Stand up and be unafraid.

BATTISTA: It's my turn now, it's my turn now, because we've got to go. Blanquita Cullum, Joe Madison, thank you both very much, as always, for being with us.

In a moment, protecting the borders -- we'll talk with Canada's Foreign Minister John Manley. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BATTISTA: We are rejoining our programming here as we watch the president leave the White House and head for Camp David for the weekend, with wife Laura by his side. That is of course, something the president often does, goes off to Camp David for the weekend, only this time with a lot of heavy responsibility and decision-making on his shoulders.

What about Canada? A report prepared by the Congressional Research Service lists Canada as one of 34 countries where cells linked to bin Laden are believed to be operating. With us now as we watch the president depart on Marine One there is Canada's Foreign Minister John Manley. He is in the United States to meet with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Have you met with him yet?

JOHN MANLEY, CANADIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: No, I'll be meeting with him later this afternoon.

BATTISTA: And what will the two of you be discussing?

MANLEY: Well, undoubtedly, we'll be talking about the response to the -- to the events of September 11, some of the things that we've done so far, and how we are part of the building coalition around the world to provide an adequate response to the events that occurred.

BATTISTA: One of the things I think Americans are clearly concerned about is that there are reports that there may be terrorist cells in Canada as well. We share a large border that may not always be as secure as we would like it. What is Canada doing about shoring up its border?

MANLEY: Well, I think we're all concerned about terrorist cells operating in all of our countries. Clearly, it's -- it seems that people perpetrated the disaster on September 11 had been in the United States for a number of years. Undoubtedly, there are people in Canada, in Britain, in France and Germany, and what we all need to do, and what we're all reexamining in light of the disaster that occurred, is how can we get better knowledge, better information, better intelligence about who these people are, where they are coming from, and what they're doing, so that we can prevent them from taking the steps that occurred in this disaster.

BATTISTA: Will that include cracking down, if you will, on refugees and immigrants into Canada, or is that a point of contention up there?

MANLEY: Well, no, I mean, Canadians have no greater desire to be at risk to terrorism than do citizens of the United States. Don't forget, Canadians died in the World Trade Center as well on September 11. And there is no sense of a border when there is catastrophe like that, and we feel we are equally under attack. Even though the event occurred on U.S. soil, it could as easily have happened in Toronto or Montreal or one of our financial centers, as it did in New York.

So, we feel that we need to deal with that vulnerability as well, and we think that we should be able to do so with the United States on a basis that ensures that all of us are more secure.

BATTISTA: Chris is on the phone from Ontario with a question or comment. Chris, go ahead.

CHRIS: Yeah, I just wanted to express my support for President Bush and his statement last night, the speech to the nation. I think that what we really have to consider here is that the United States, if it doesn't pressure Canada to be tough on its immigrant policies, to enforce and do the background checks that are necessary -- in effect, no matter what you do, we're going to wind up leaving the back door open, and I'd hate to think that's what's going to happen.

BATTISTA: Secretary Manley, comment?

MANLEY: Well, as I say, we know that most of the people involved in this attack didn't come in from Canada. So, there is obviously there is a security risk that's not just limited to the Canadian border.

One of the things that we have to bear in mind, both for Canada and the United States, is how important that border is to both of us in economic terms. Do you know that there's more trade across one border crossing, from Windsor to Detroit, than there is between the United States and any other country in the world? You know that Canada purchases 25 percent of the U.S. exports? And a much greater proportion of Canadian exports is purchased in the United States.

So, we need to deal with issues of security, while at the same time, ensuring that we maintain mutual economic interests in keeping that border as open and free as possible.

BATTISTA: Will Canada be involved, do you know -- or perhaps this is something that might come in your meeting with Secretary of State Powell, or perhaps between Mr. Chretien on Monday and Mr. Bush -- whether or not Canada will be involved in the new Department of Homefront Security here in the United States, the new cabinet position?

MANLEY: We certainly would want to be liaising closely with that individual. The president's choice is someone who, of course, is from the Northeast and knows Canada well, and knows how important the border is, so we look forward to working with him and ensuring that we have a continuing high level of cooperation.

Our border people, both immigration and customs, work very closely together at border points across the border that we have between Canada and the U.S., and that's worked successfully for a long time.

BATTISTA: All right. Canadian Foreign Minister John Manley, we do appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Thank you.

MANLEY: Thank you.

BATTISTA: Thanks also to our studio audience and you too at home. TALKBACK LIVE: America Speaks Out will return on Monday at 3:00 Eastern. We'll see you then. Thank you for joining us.

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