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CNN LARRY KING WEEKEND

Special Edition: America's New War

Aired September 23, 2001 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight: the Stars and Stripes flies at full staff once again, a symbol of American resolve and recovery. And in New York's Yankee Stadium prayers and patriotism. Joining us, Senator Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York who attended that service today. Also in New York, Kim Moran, her husband, Fire Chief John Moran, one of the hundreds of firefighters missing at the World Trade Center. And with her is Congressman Joseph Crowley, John Moran's cousin.

In Washington, Democratic Senator Max Cleland, a member of the Armed Services Committee, decorated disabled veteran of the Vietnam War. And also in D.C., Republican Congressman Randy "Duke" Cunningham, member of the Select Intelligence Committee. He was one of the most highly decorated pilots in the Vietnam War.

Then Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and best-selling author Bob Woodward, the assistant managing editor of "The Washington Post." With him L. Paul Bremer, served as Chairman of the National Commission on Terrorism, was ambassador-at-large for Counter-Terrorism under President Reagan.

Plus, the dean of American Pediatrics, Dr. T. Barry Brazelton. He'll tell us how to help our children through this terrible time.

And we'll wind it up with entertainer Michael Feinstein, who will bring us a song about tolerance and the American spirit.

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Actually we are live seven days a week during this. Highlights for the day headlines, he says -- the United States, rather, says don't believe the Taliban leadership when they say they can't find bin Laden. Secretary of State Colin Powell promises to produce evidence that bin Laden is guilty of the attacks. And the United States imposes a one-day ban on crop dusting planes over concerns about possible chemical weapon attack.

We begin with Senator Charles Schumer, one of the more visible people in all of this. Democrat, New York, senior U.S. Senator. What was that service like today, Charles?

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Larry, it was really moving. You had all of New York there, every religion there. You had beautiful singing. Perhaps the most powerful moment was that a Black Muslim imam got up and gave a strong condemnation, not only of terrorism and violence, but also of those Muslim clerics who either perpetrated, condone it or remain silent.

KING: What does New York need the most right now?

SCHUMER: You know, since we're on a national show, people should come visit us. New York is safe, New York is moving again. Come see a show, go to a Yankee game; if you have to, go to a Met game. But come see us. And come back and be tourists.

The New Yorkers themselves, you know, the president has put the flag up at full mast, flying high as can be. The mayor has said New Yorkers should get back to work and do what we're doing, and we are. But having the world coming and visit New York, as we're accustomed, would be a tremendous help to us.

KING: It is no doubt that you were a critic of the Bush administration. Have any views changed?

SCHUMER: Yes. I think the president has done a fabulous job thus far, both in public -- I thought his speech Thursday night was a tour-de-force, one of the best speeches I've heard given by a president in the 21 years I've been in Washington. And when I speak with him privately, I really do believe -- and this may give some solace to a lot of Americans -- he really knows what he's doing, in this sense.

Do we know exactly, can we map out the next year or two? No, but he knows two things that are really important. One is that it will take resolve. He told me several times he was staking his presidency on really making America safe from terrorism. And second he knows that you can't just go after bin Laden, that you have to go after other terrorist networks. And more importantly, the weak pressure points, the countries and organizations that aid and abet these terrorists, without which these terrorists couldn't do what they've been doing.

KING: What about the economy and New York City? Concerned?

SCHUMER: Yes, we are concerned -- the economy nationally and New York's economy. But I do have confidence in the long-term economy of New York. You know, we're an idea city. People -- the industries in New York are not heavy manufacturing, but rather ideas industries: communications and finance and law and things like that. Those services are more needed in the world, and New Yorkers are great at that.

The other thing that benefits New York, Larry, and will continue to, is that we have people come from all over the world. Some of the hardest working, most dedicated people from around the world want to come to New York. I don't believe this bombing will stop that. Within a month New York will be kicking again, and people will want to come.

KING: Is that aviation bailout bill going to work?

SCHUMER: Well, you know, I didn't like the bill all that much. I didn't like it because, number one, I thought it was a little too generous in terms of how much money was given. And second, it didn't have some things that I thought were important, some protections for some of the workers as well as doing something for Amtrak. But I voted for it and actually went to the floor of the Senate and spoke for it, and here's why.

At this time we have to be unified. And, you know, the bill was a consensus product, and I think each of us has to sort of tighten our belt a little and say, if we can't get the whole thing, we should still do our best to try and create a good product. And that's what happened here. Will it keep the airlines flying? Yes. Do we have to do more, particularly in terms of mass transit and in terms of worker protections? No question about it.

KING: The New York mayoral primary election is Tuesday. Mayor Giuliani was on last week. When I asked him if they could change the law that he could run, he said -- he didn't say he would turn it down. And others are suggesting they write in his name. What do you think of Giuliani's future?

SCHUMER: Well, I hope in some way he continues to help New York and help the country. I've always gotten along with Giuliani, even before this recent, you know, the upsurge in his popularity -- well justified in my judgment. He is an extremely talented, dedicated guy. And when you give him a specific task, whether it be reducing crime or rebuilding New York, there's almost nobody better at getting it done.

I don't think we're going to stop the process here. The election is Tuesday and there are lots of people who don't want to change it or eliminate the term limits law, which I always thought was a bad idea. But I would hope whoever becomes the next mayor will actively involve Mayor Giuliani in continuing to rebuild our city. And I think that's the sentiment -- overwhelming sentiment of New Yorkers, even people who had opposed Giuliani in the past.

KING: Seems like a sensible thing to do. We'll be seeing a lot of him, we'll be in New York next week and hope to be with you and Hillary. We're going to do a show together.

SCHUMER: Great, I look forward Larry, and welcome back to Brooklyn.

KING: Thanks Chuck.

KING: Senator Charles Schumer, Democrat, New York, senior U.S. senator. As we go to break, scenes from Yankee Stadium today. We'll be right back.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, Kim Moran, at our studios in New York. Her husband, Battalion Chief John Moran is one of the hundreds of firefighters still missing at the World Trade Center. And with her in New York is Congressman Joseph Crowley, Democrat of New York. He is John Moran's cousin, and a member of the International Relations Committee.

Kim, what was the -- John was in what post that day? Where was his department, where was he -- what was he scheduled to be doing?

KIM MORAN, FIRE CHIEF HUSBAND MISSING AT WTC: He was special operations command. They handle hazardous material or large fires over a certain amount of -- or any fire with an injury. He was actually off duty at 7:00 a.m. and...

KING: What happened?

MORAN: He -- they usually hang around the fire house for a little while, just unwinding and talking to the next shift that came on. And when the call came in, Ray Downey -- he is the chief of special operations command -- asked him if he would like to go with them, and he jumped in -- jumped in the truck and went down there with Chief Downey.

KING: He didn't have to be there then?

MORAN: No, he did not have to be there.

KING: How did you learn that he was one of the missing?

MORAN: I didn't learn that he was missing until about 12:30 that night. I went to the crisis center out in Fort Totten here in New York, and that's how I learned that he was actually at the scene with Chief Downey, and that he was indeed on the list of the missing.

KING: Congressman, were in New York or Washington?

REP. JOSEPH CROWLEY (D), NEW YORK: I was in New York, Larry. I was on the 8:30 shuttle in La Guardia Airport. And it was about 9:05 in the morning, and a perfect day. And although I'm used to having delays at La Guardia, and La Guardia being in my district I get enough about the delays at La Guardia -- I was surprised at 9:05 on a perfectly clear day that we had not taken off, and I e-mailed my office, and they said, "get to a phone, you know, something is wrong," and that's when I was informed that the planes have hit, and we were then asked to leave the plane and the airport.

And it really wasn't until the afternoon that we knew that John was actually at the World Trade Center. And as Kim says, it wasn't until later on that we knew that John was amongst the missing.

KING: You spoke of John in a speech on the House floor, right? And I understand also your brother is a firefighter as well?

CROWLEY: No, John's younger brother Michael is a fireman from truck three in -- three in Manhattan. And they lost -- he was off that day, but he lost 12 men from his company.

KING: When was the last time you saw your cousin?

CROWLEY: I saw John and Kim together the Saturday before the 11th. We were invited to a block party by John and Kim, and that was the last time, in Rockway Beach, the -- I guess it was the 8th.

KING: Kim, your husband, at age 40, is the youngest chief in the New York fire department.

MORAN: He was actually 42, but when he was promoted to battalion chief, he was 39.

KING: His father was a fireman too?

MORAN: Yes, he father was a fireman. His uncle was a captain with the fire department. Tons of cousins, firemen. Brother, of course, a fireman. Friends firemen, everyone.

KING: Must be awfully tough to be the wife of a fireman, under the best of circumstances?

MORAN: Yeah. You're always wondering if they're going to come home.

KING: You told the "L.A. Times," congressman, "Do I want to hurt the people who did this to my cousin? I do, but I don't want to do it without -- while hurting other innocent people, and we have to be judicious." Do you think that can happen?

CROWLEY: Well, what I really mean is that I have full faith and support in the president, as the commander in chief. I was there at his speech this week. As the senator said before, I was impressed with his remarks, and I have full faith and confidence that the people who did this will be brought to justice, whatever that means, and I don't give any definition of that.

I -- you know, what I really mean is I'm concerned about going to war, but at the same time I do want to bring justice -- not only for my cousin, but for the 6,000 that were killed, or at least at this point are assumed dead, after the vicious attack on Tuesday, on the 11th.

KING: Kim, have you accepted the worst, or do you have hope?

MORAN: I can't say that I'm completely out of hope. There is always that hope -- hope is -- hope is hope. There is no such thing as false hope, it just is what it is. But I have to grips with the fact that he probably won't be coming home, and for the sake of my children I have to give them some closure. I can't just let it go on and on and on. They are too young to understand all the complex things that are happening right now. All they know is their dad is not home.

KING: My deepest sympathies with you. Your husband carried with him every day of his life the famed speech by Teddy Roosevelt, "The Man in the Arena," in which the president said: "It's not the critic who counts nor the man who points out how the strong men stumble, or whether doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valuably, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows great enthusiasm, great devotion, spends himself on a worthy cause."

Thank you, Kim. Congressman, thank you very much.

CROWLEY: Thank you, Larry. Can I just say one thing?

KING: Yeah.

CROWLEY: I have now been elevated by my cousin, Mike Moran, I'm no longer his cousin, I'm now his brother, and that had to be the proudest moment of my life, I think, throughout all of this. That's what has happened to our family, we're becoming closer than ever before.

KING: Boy, that's wonderful to hear.

As you heard, today's service at Yankee Stadium included prayers, patriotic words and inspirational songs. Here's the great Placido Domingo with "Ave Maria."

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. We now welcome to our program, in Washington, Senator Max Cleland, Democrat of Georgia, member of the Armed Services Committee, the Aviation Subcommittee of the Commerce Committee, the decorated and disabled Vietnam veteran. And another veteran of that war, another hero as well, Congressman Randy "Duke" Cunningham, Republican of California. He is a member of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and one of the most highly decorated pilots in the Vietnam War. Both, of course, of these gentlemen have seen war and the horrors of it.

Senator Cleland, is this going to be very different?

SEN. MAX CLELAND (D-GA), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Well, I think it will be. I mean, the term war is used, and the poet once said, "wars are easy to get into, but hard to get out of." I do think that we have to take action, warlike action on those who've taken action on us, because the action on the United States was an act of war. American blood has been shed on American soil by a foreign foe.

We have to respond. In our own self-interest, we have to defend ourselves. But I think that, basically, it's going to be more than a military effort. I think it really, to be successful, is going to have to be a political effort to make sure that our allies and friends around the world, civilized nations, work with us to strike back, to tighten the noose around those who took us on.

IN so many ways, this is going to be a long, drawn-out campaign, only part of which will be military.

KING: And Congressman Cunningham, that military part will be what? Is there a battlefield?

REP. RANDY "DUKE" CUNNINGHAM (R-CA), PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE: Well, there could be a lot of different battlefields, Larry. I agree 100 percent with my colleague Max Cleland. But that battlefield could be Afghanistan.

But we can't paint a certain face on it. First time we do, then they're going to shift to Indonesia, they'll shift to the Philippines. Some of the military response that we have -- I think the best thing that we can do is keep these rascals moving, to keep them jumping. Because if we just sit back and are defensive, they will strike again.

KING: Is, Senator Cleland, in your opinion, the public patient enough to go through the long haul here?

CLELAND: I think so. I mean, we have been stricken; we have been hurt. We're bloodied, as the poet says, but not unbowed -- I mean, not bowed. We are able to conduct the long march here.

But I think it must be something that is realistic. I think our military efforts must be realistic. And they must include diplomatic and political efforts, because I think only the two working together will really work, will really smoke out the terrorists, or keep them moving, as Randy says.

KING: And Congressman Cunningham, how ready is the military?

CUNNINGHAM: We're not in real good shape, Larry. Over the last eight years we went on 124 deployments, which -- it tainted -- we're short on parts, our ship repair, ship-building is down. Basic training -- I watched Captain O'Grady last night on your segment.

Captain O'Grady, they had cut training back. He wasn't even air combat trained when he was shot down over Bosnia. And if you take that over to the intelligence agencies, they also have not been able to modernize, to give them a lot of the equipment they need today to be able to give us the results that we want.

Congress and the president, my colleagues from New York, who I laud -- Congress has come together, and we're giving them those resources. But it's going to take a long time, and our military -- it's going to take a while to get them back up to speed.

KING: We'll be right back with Senator Cleland and Congressman Cunningham. More to come on LARRY KING LIVE; don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The ultimate victory in this war is when everyone who wants to can do what every one of us did today. And that is: Get up, let your children go to school, go out of the house, and not in fear; stand here on a sidewalk and not worry about a truck bomb driving into us; and be able to be free in speech and thought and activity and behavior. And that's victory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Senator Cleland, do you think this homeland security setup is going to work?

CLELAND: Well it has to, Larry. I mean, we've got about 47 different agencies here at home, but they're not well-coordinated; they don't really have a unity of command. And I think the president was proper and very much on target by creating an executive office in the White House that brings together all the agencies under one chief for homeland defense. We need that kind of coordination. The lack of coordination has been a problem.

Congressman, can this bipartisanship -- we see Daschle hugging Bush -- can that continue?

CUNNINGHAM: I think when it deals with national security, you're going to find Republicans and Democrats come together. I serve on two of the best committees in Congress. Jack Murtha, a Democrat; Norm Dicks; you've got Ike Skelton on the Authorization Committee. You wouldn't know that there's a Democrat or Republican in that room. They're focused on national security. And my colleagues that I work with, 100 percent of the time now the politics will get involved when we get into other things. But when it comes to national security, you're going to see unity.

KING: Sam question for both of you...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: I'm sorry, Senator, go ahead.

CLELAND: I would just like to echo that, really, and underscore that. I mean, we're all Americans here. And we support the president 1,000 percent. And that's the only way we're going to get out of this successfully. That's the only way we're going to have any kind of victory or a success that we can call victory. And I'm just proud to be on the program with my colleague and friend Duke...

KING: It's showing.

CLELAND: ... and I'm just proud to serve with my fellow men and women in the Congress.

I think we've been through trying times, but we're standing tall and standing together.

KING: Congressman, what is your biggest concern? What worries you the most?

CUNNINGHAM: Chemical, biological weapons. There's little things, like there was a move to stop the Selective Service. We don't want a draft; but in case of national emergency, it would be good. But things like Selective Service point out where we have those people that are best able to handle those situations.

If we don't stay on the offensive, if we don't stay behind our military like, say, Captain O'Grady hit it right on the nail -- we need to keep strong and keep the American people behind our military. But if our nations -- if the other nations fall out of this, don't give us a support and they offer asylum for not just bin Laden, but all of this network, we could end up with another wave or another two waves of this.

KING: Senator Cleland, your biggest concern?

CLELAND: Duke's right. I mean, terrorist, biological or a chemical attack. I mean, I'm on the Armed Services Committee in the Senate. We formed a couple of years ago a committee to look at emerging threats. And, to a person on that committee, I think they've concluded that the greatest emerging threat is a terrorist attack on the United States, and one that' biological and chemical in nature.

KING: Thank you both very much. We'll be calling on you again through the days and months ahead, Senator Cleland, Congressman Cunningham.

When we come back, Bob Woodward and Ambassador Paul Bremer, who chaired the National Committee on Terrorism. Still to come, we'll be talking as well with Dr. Barry Brazelton, the renowned pediatrician, on dealing with your children through this. And Michael Feinstein will -- I was going to say "entertain" -- he will move us as we move toward the end of the program. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI, NEW YORK: Like our fathers and grandfathers who fought and died to liberate the world from Nazism and Fascism and Communism, the cluster of arrows to defend our freedom and the olive branch of peace have now been handed to us. We will hold them firmly in our hands, honor their memory, and lift them up to heaven to light the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We now welcome on this Sunday edition of LARRY KING LIVE, in our Washington bureau, Bob Woodward, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, best-selling author and assistant managing editor to "The Washington Post"; and Ambassador L. Paul Bremer, the -- who chaired the National Committee on Terrorism, was ambassador-at-large for counter-terrorism and managing director at MMC Enterprise Risk -- that's a part of Marsh & McLennan Companies. More than 300 of his colleagues were lost at the World Trade Center.

Bob Woodward, your assessment of -- you've been assessing presidents for a long time -- the president, to this minute.

BOB WOODWARD, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, often -- presidents, oddly enough, don't realize how much goodwill they really have or how much popular support and how much time they have to solve very, very difficult problems.

In watching Bush last week, in that very powerful speech to Congress, I think he realizes that he's got time, and the only requirement is to do this right. So there is clearly a resolve and an intensity in all of this. But there seemed to be a patience there: Let's solve the problem in the correct way.

Colin Powell today, I felt, was -- made it very, very clear that the operation against terrorism is going to be in a series of phases. It's not all-out in the first phase.

KING: And to your credit last Sunday before the speech, you said on this program how he was doing exceptionally well and really hit his stride.

Ambassador Bremer, you've been warning of terrorism for years. We see that famous tape of Gary Hart, I think, appearing before a Senate committee like nine years ago, talking about things that happened two weeks ago.

Why didn't they listen?

AMBASSADOR L. PAUL BREMER, FORMER AMBASSADOR FOR COUNTER- TERRORISM: Well, I think partly it's human nature not to face what are very difficult issues. It's partly the nature of democracy not to plan ahead. That's one of the reasons we like democracy, is we don't have a planning bureau that tells us all what to do.

It's tragic because, certainly, anybody who follows terrorism closely would not have been surprised by the attack. We were, of course, shocked and horrified. But we'd been warning for some time that there would be mass casualty terrorism in the United States.

The national commission which I chaired issued its report 15 months ago, with some two dozen recommendations, none of which were followed.

KING: And why? That's the -- why were they not -- because we get complacent? Why not follow them?

BREMER: Well, an attack of this kind, I guess, is almost unimaginable until it happens, unless you happen to be studying it.

Of course, our report came out in the -- in the months just before an election. And then we had the election. The new administration had -- was set back in terms of getting its own team in place.

So there are always -- there are always reasons. But it's tragic that we just weren't ready.

KING: Bob Woodward, they're reporting today -- the Taliban is -- that bin Laden's not there. He's not in Afghanistan. Do you buy that?

WOODWARD: Well, I guess it was Secretary Rumsfeld who said that that's laughable that they don't know. I mean, who knows?

I think in making an assessment of where we are right now, a critical question is who is on the other side of this? Who is bin Laden? Who is this al Qaeda network? And just to illustrate how insidious it is, we reported in the "Washington Post" today that some of these al Qaeda cells exist in this country today. They have existed for years. The FBI has known about them. The members of the cells largely came from abroad, entered the country legally -- the authorities had not found that the groups had done anything illegal, so they can't arrest them.

But here are these people are sitting who could do more awful things. So it is a group that is very, very disciplined; very, very patient. They knew where to hit us hardest. They knew our theatrical values and, you know, how much we care about human life. And they did it.

KING: Ambassador, if the reports in the "Post" are true, if there are cells in the United States, and they're not doing anything illegal to this second, should we take some kind of action, or do civil liberties count as paramount here?

BREMER: As we proceed in this battle -- and it's going to have many fronts -- some of them overseas, some of them in the United States -- one of the things that we have to find some balance in is taking steps which are privy to protect American security, but which also preserve the civil liberties which we have enjoyed here for a couple of hundred years. And that's going to be a hard balance to get.

I think there's a lost of loose talk going around about getting rid of civil liberties. I think we're all going to have inconveniences. And there'll be lots of inconveniences when you want to travel.

But I think we can tighten up a bit without having to impinge on civil liberties themselves.

KING: Bob, the building of the coalition, which the current president's father did so well 11 years ago -- can we do it now?

WOODWARD: Well, they've got the best people on the case. And they're working on it...

KING: You wrote a book about...

WOODWARD: ... full time.

I've -- Powell and Cheney, and now President Bush. You know, I think -- and I have heard that sometimes they get him on the phone because he's as effective at persuading some of the foreign leaders to go along with us.

So it's a critical part of all of this. If we alienate some of the people who might be in the middle on this -- some of the natural allies -- it's going to be a much more complicated undertaking. And I think Paul Bremer might agree with this.

A few more weeks, or even months, of diplomacy can save many lives and allow us to do less with the CIA and the military.

KING: You agree, Paul?

BREMER: Well, I think there's a -- I think there's an outer limit. I don't know how far the president can stretch the diplomacy, and how far he should. Obviously, to the extent we can operate with friendly nations, we should do that.

But we certainly are getting now clear indications that bin Laden was behind this. We're going to have to destroy the terrorist camps; not just his, but all of the other ones in Afghanistan. And in my view, no action that does not result -- any action that does not result in a regime change in Afghanistan will be a failure.

So we're going to have to get pretty serious on the military front. We of course are going to have to -- as the president said -- use all the other techniques we've got: intelligence, cooperation, diplomacy...

KING: Yeah.

BREMER: ... everything else.

KING: We'll take a break and come right back -- include a couple of phone calls as well. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The Taliban needs to understand that the United States and its friends are not going to a countenance a regime sitting there, harboring terrorism, training them, allowing their finances, and then having them make hit-and-run attacks around the world, including the kind of horrible attack that they made on New York City and on the Pentagon. That's simply not going to be tolerated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Take a few calls for Bob Woodward and Ambassador Bremer.

Ellijay, Georgia, hello.

CALLER: Yes, Mr. Woodward, with the economy and the stock market depressed, what in your opinion could be done to energize and stimulate both the stock market and the economy?

WOODWARD: Solve this problem -- over the coming months show that there have been significant successes, and that there's some plan to meet the goals that Bush laid out.

But clearly, the president is going to have to come up with some economic strategy and plan. The economy is wounded, and -- particularly here in Washington with National Airport closed down, tens of thousands of people out of jobs -- you talk to cab drivers and people in hotels, and so forth, and they are in genuine anguish about how their income has been cut completely, or in half. And it is for those families and people a personal emergency. And there's going to have to be some strategy at some point, if it continues.

KING: Erie, Pennsylvania, hello.

CALLER: Yeah, Larry. I want to know why there's no accountability in this -- in this whole process.

Everybody's been talking about what's happened. It's time we have some accountability down in Washington for intelligence -- what I call unintelligence community. Somebody needs to take responsibility, and some heads ought to roll on this thing.

KING: Paul, it's obvious, Mr. Ambassador, something went wrong.

BREMER: Well, that's right.

I mean, we certainly have an intelligence failure. We have an airline security failure, we have problems of our immigration control.

I think the focus now should not be on trying to fix blame on people. Time will come for that; there'll be plenty of time for that later.

What we've got to do now is fix what went wrong as fast as we can, recognizing that for example, in the area of intelligence, we have had a long-term degradation of our intelligence in this country -- going back really 25 years -- and accelerated during the 1990s. And we're not going to be able to fix that overnight. It's going to take time.

But the president has rightly stressed on Thursday night that Americans are going to have to be patient. You know, let's worry about blaming people a little later. Let's get on with the battle now.

KING: Bob, why does everyone that appears with us -- certainly elected officials -- why are they are so very confident?

WOODWARD: Well, we are not talking about Saddam Hussein's army of half a million occupying Kuwait. We are talking about hundreds, thousands of people who may be in this terrorist network.

I personally think that the role of the CIA may turn out to be more critical than the military, if you can get good information. Now, that's one of the great, intractable problems, and we've not been very successful at it.

But if methods can be developed, if they can get the human agents, if -- all you need, at least initially, is one person who's appalled by what happened, who had inside knowledge; finding some way to tell this country where Osama bin Laden is, or some of his key lieutenants...

KING: Good point. WOODWARD: ... or how they're working, and you might have a significant gain.

KING: And ambassador, how are you dealing with your personal loss -- friends and colleagues?

BREMER: Well, I think the way everybody does. You have to move on.

It is, for me, a somewhat heartbreaking situation to have chaired this commission and made a number of recommendations, and then 15 months later lose -- as you pointed out at the top of the segment -- over 300 of my colleagues -- and a very close friend, Ray Downey, who was referred to in your earlier segment, who was the head of the Special Operations command in the New York Fire Department.

KING: Thank you both very much. We'll be calling on you again in tough times -- Bob Woodward and Ambassador L. Paul Bremer.

Children are our future. Dr. T. Berry Brazelton has been dealing with them all his life. He's a renowned pediatrician. He's going to tell us how we should deal with them, right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: The proud twin towers that once crowned our famous skyline no longer stand. But our skyline will rise again.

(APPLAUSE)

GIULIANI: In the words of President George W. Bush: "We will rebuild New York City."

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Internationally famed pediatrician Dr. T. Berry Brazelton. He's written hundreds of books, including "Touchpoints Three to Six: Your Child's Emotional and Behavioral Development." Perfectly suited now.

Children under 3 not affected by this, doctor?

DR. T. BERRY BRAZELTON, PEDIATRIC AND CHILD PSYCHOLOGY EXPERT: Oh, I think every child in America is being affected by this. If they haven't yet, they will be.

This is -- you know, it's got all of us as adults working at half mast. And I think we can expect that from children.

They may be pretty good at...

KING: Even under -- even under 3? BRAZELTON: Yeah. I think they feel their parents' tension. And they feel their parents' sadness. And they may not know what to make of it. But it affects them.

KING: How about 3 to 6? You just wrote a book in that age group. What happens ...

BRAZELTON: What...

KING: ... to them in this?

BRAZELTON: I think they take it very personally.

You know, they're just beginning to feel like everything they do matters to people around them. And so when something like this happens, they think, "Oh, my goodness!"

I remember, Christy McAuliffe -- you remember that tragedy...

KING: Yeah.

BRAZELTON: ... with a mother and a teacher? Every child in America wondered, "Was she a bad mommy? Did she have bad kids? Why did our president let her go up in space and get shot up?"

And ...

KING: So are they thinking now that the people in the building -- something was the matter with them?

BRAZELTON: Well, I'm afraid of something like that. But I think -- more than that, I think they're just wondering, "What is this all about? Everybody's so sad. Everybody's so affected."

When I -- when I see Mrs. Moran and what she's got to face with her children, I don't think we have any concept as a nation of how to handle this.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: How about early adolescents? How about the kids in, you know, elementary school?

BRAZELTON: Well, you know, I think they've lived through "Star Wars" and Hollywood already. So they are sort of more prepared than maybe the rest of us, except that we've promised them it was just fantasy. And of course, now it's not fantasy.

KING: And teenagers?

BRAZELTON: I think they're wondering, "Why did we get into this? What in the world is going on? Who's ruined our world for us?" And of course, they begin to blame us: their parents and their grandparents.

KING: And do they worry about being around? BRAZELTON: They sure do. They're certainly taking it seriously, the ones that I've heard about and talked to.

KING: Right.

BRAZELTON: And I think that we've got to take them seriously as a result...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ... told you, Doctor, we have limited time. I'd hope we do a whole show on this, include you with it. Because you're certainly an expert on this.

But what do you recommend to parents -- let's take the younger kids, up to age 6 or 7? What do you say to them?

BRAZELTON: I'd say, you know, "What do you know already? What have you heard?" And then, on the strength of what they tell you, be ready to answer them on their own terms.

I don't think we want to lead them, or go beyond what they already are worried about. But I think we want to be there for them.

One of the best things that's happened is everybody's banding together.

KING: The fact they see so much violence around them -- does that temper this at all?

BRAZELTON: No. I think this is one more layer of more violence. And you know, as a nation, we haven't learned to live with this yet.

KING: You look very concerned.

BRAZELTON: I'm very concerned. Aren't you? You've got a little one.

KING: Two little ones.

BRAZELTON: You must be concerned, too. Two little ones.

KING: Another one since last we spoke.

BRAZELTON: Oh, Larry! Great.

Well, it's very concerning. I have six grandchildren, and I'm concerned.

KING: Thank you, Doctor. We'll be calling on you again very soon.

BRAZELTON: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Dr. T. Berry Brazelton, renowned expert on pediatrics.

Michael Feinstein is at the piano. And that's special. And we'll tell you why, right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're at the piano with my friend Michael Feinstein, who's going to record "The House I Live In." That's a famous Frank Sinatra song from the '40s that won an Academy Award.

You're going to record it with what intention?

MICHAEL FEINSTEIN, ENTERTAINER: I'm doing it with the proceeds going to the Red Cross.

You know, I'm a singer; this is what I do. And I hope that reviving the song will help people.

It's a song about unity. It's a song about diversity. And it was written by two great guys, Earl Robinson and Lewis Allen, who believed in the diversity of America.

KING: It's a song, though -- Frank sang it at the 100th anniversary of the Statue of Liberty in New York.

FEINSTEIN: Yeah. Yeah.

KING: Nobody sings that song.

FEINSTEIN: No one every sings it. I've sung it through the years. But...

KING: You have?

FEINSTEIN: Yeah, I sang it -- sang it on Fourth of July celebrations.

But it just occurred to me the other day, and I did it impromptu in a concert. And I thought, It's time to hear the sentiment again.

KING: Before we hear it with a montage, and you play it and sing it, we -- this society -- patriotic music has always helped us, haven't it?

FEINSTEIN: Absolutely.

KING: It's always been around. And we always need it.

FEINSTEIN: Music is healing, Larry. I mean, music is the only art that goes to the heart. It affects the soul. It can transform people. It's used therapeutically. It's used spiritually.

So all those elements go into the presentation of a song like this. Because it literally changes people.

That's why they play music when people go into battle, because it gives them courage to do that. It makes people nuts, but you can also use it the other way.

KING: So it makes you -- as we see at the rally. And it makes you feel better.

FEINSTEIN: Yeah.

KING: Right?

FEINSTEIN: Because it's cathartic. And music is a vibration. And we're made of vibrations.

KING: This song was a short movie.

FEINSTEIN: It was a featurette, as they call it.

KING: Sinatra comes out of a building, and kids are fighting, and picking on kids...

FEINSTEIN: Yeah.

KING: ... and he separates them...

FEINSTEIN: Yes.

KING: ... and asks them why they're fighting. And there's a black kid and a Jewish kid...

FEINSTEIN: Yeah.

KING: ... it's a wide mix.

FEINSTEIN: Yes.

KING: And he sings this wonderful song.

Do you like singing it?

FEINSTEIN: I love singing it. And I can't sing it without thinking of Frank.

KING: Yeah, because he put a -- I don't think anybody ever recorded it.

FEINSTEIN: Other than Frank, no.

KING: No.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Until you.

FEINSTEIN: I'm recording it this week. KING: As we leave you tonight, you're going to hear the brilliant Michael Feinstein singing a wonderful song. And that will take us out in the montage.

This was an Academy Award-winning song from an Academy Award- winning short: the brilliant Michael Feinstein, and "The House I Live In."

(MUSIC)

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