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America's New War

Aired September 27, 2001 - 21:00   ET



GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will not surrender our freedom to travel.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, President Bush urges Americans to fly without fear. And pictures of the suspected hijackers: The FBI wants your help.

From Washington, Senator Richard Lugar, senior member of the Intelligence and Foreign Relations committees, and member of the Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Chris Dodd.

With fears of a chemical or biological weapons attack, in Sydney, Australia, former U.N. weapons inspector Richard Butler. In New York, former United States Ambassador to the U.N. Richard Holbrooke. Also in New York, Congressman Chris Shays, chair of the House Subcommittee on National Security. And in Washington, chemical and biological weapons expert Dr. Jonathan B. Tucker.

Are the skies really safe again? In D.C., Airline Pilots Association president, Duane Woerth. Also in Washington, Patricia Friend, international president of the Association of Flight Attendants, and former NTSB chairman Jim Hall. In Columbus, Ohio, aviation safety expert Mary Schiavo.

Millions of Afghan refugees could face famine or death. She has seen the horror firsthand: U.N. refugee ambassador and actress Angelina Jolie.

And finally, a song about renewal and hope with megastar Naomi Judd, and they're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening. First, the headlines to this hour. The president has announced new security measures for airplanes. Air Force generals are now given power to order the downing of U.S. commercial jets under extraordinary circumstances. And the FBI has released the photos of 19 suspected hijackers.

And in that connection, joining us from Washington is CNN national correspondent Eileen O'Connor, and with her in Miami is Tim Padgett, "TIME" magazine's bureau chief there. Both have covered this story extensively.

Eileen, and we'll take it with you, and you'll be going to Tim. What's the story?

EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically, the FBI director and the attorney general decided to release what they believe are the photographs of the 19 hijackers. And again, I stress "they believe," because, you know, there's been a lot of confusion about these names and these faces.

And in first Flight 11, you see Wail Alshehri, Waleed Alshehri, Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz Alomari, and Satam Suqami. Now, what's interesting, Larry, here: one ringleader among these. Alomari, though, very key and a friend of Mohamed Atta, who is the ring leader. The others pretty much are foot soldiers here.

Now, Mohamed Atta Tim knows a lot about. Atta has a lot of connections overseas and he was very active in Florida -- Tim.

TIM PADGETT, "TIME": Very active in Florida, indeed. In fact, he was sort of the dark center of gravity, I would say, in the whole Florida operation amongst these cells down here. He as well as his partner, Marwan Al-Shehhi, and another hijacker named Ziad Jarrah, and the three of them really sort of kept things together here in Florida. But most of all, Mohamed Atta.

He arrived in Florida in June of 2000 and made some trips back to Europe, where he is thought to have met with, for example, members of Iraq and other terrorist organizations. But mainly he was in Florida keeping things together, and he was -- he was the one who was the most, I would say, purposeful and single-minded about everything they were trying to do down here, whether it was flight training, whether it was weight-lifting -- and also, more important, whether it was keeping this disdainful attitude that he would try to keep amongst the group toward Americans all the time that he was down here.

O'CONNOR: And you know, Tim, he was very good friends with the pilot of the next flight, which is Flight 175 United Airlines. That also left from Boston. That flight was the one that crashed into the second tower of the World Trade Center.

Now, there you see Marwan Al-Shehhi. Now he was very pivotal, again a student with Atta in Hamburg.

Atta ended up studying in Hamburg with two of the pilots of the other planes. Now, Marwan Al-Shehhi also lived in Coral Springs, Florida with Atta. He also attended flight school there in Venice.

And again, it is really chilling: All of the landlords and the people that these men talked to, they rented cars from, they all described them as clean-cut, friendly. Some of these people you will see, Ahmed Alghamdi and Hamza Alghamdi, brothers. Also Mohand Al- Shehhi. Also, all of these men foot soldiers, more or less.

Fayez Banihammad was described by his father as a -- who's a principal in Saudi Arabia, a simple school principal -- he ended up going off, according to his father, to help an Islamic relief organization, but we now know probably was then brought in to this mission itself.

But those men not attending flight school. It was the key people attached to Atta. Right, Tim?

KING: This -- this for both of you, Tim and Eileen. Tim, the FBI's releasing this and all the rest. Why?

PADGETT: Well, I think...

O'CONNOR: Well, one of the reasons -- go ahead, Tim.

PADGETT: No, go ahead. Go ahead, Eileen.

O'CONNOR: Well, one of the reasons really, Larry, is they say that what they want to do is jog people's memories. All of those people that associated with these men, thinking of them really hidden in plain sight, among you and I: shopping, going off to the mall. And they had want to jog their memories, see who else they might have associated with. And that, they believe, will enable them to prevent any future attacks that might have been planned.

PADGETT: And I also think that one of the main things they want to get across is that during the first couple of weeks of this investigation, there was a lot of confusion as to the identities of a lot of these hijackers. And I think they're finally getting to a point during all of the muddled situation with the Arabic names, et cetera, and the identity theft that we've discovered, I think they finally have come to a point where they can say to Americans, these are definitely the guys, and now we want to start connecting them, for example, with people they may have come in touch with who unwittingly, or wittingly, helped them with things like money transactions that could then take them overseas or in the United States to people on that -- on that layer above them, who may have been financing and directing and otherwise operating this whole mess on an upper level.

KING: What about Flight 77, Eileen?

O'CONNOR: Well, that also was a very critical flight. That was the one that went into the Pentagon, and in that flight, the man who piloted that one, is believed to have piloted that, Hani Hanjour. Now, this is a pilot, Larry, that his instructor said wasn't very good. In fact, one of the flight schools that he attended in Arizona actually refused to allow him to come back, because they said he didn't do his homework.

He then, though, hung out with all of the other men who was on his flight. He, though, does trace backwards to Britain. He had an address -- we saw it on an application that he made out to one of those flight schools back in Britain.

The international connections, Larry, very key.

KING: And there are rumors that he was originally after the White House and couldn't find it, and that's how he got into the Pentagon.

And Tim, what about 93, the one from Newark?

PADGETT: That involved again Ziad Jarrah, and he, as Eileen has pointed out, he is one of the two people with Mohamed Atta who had studied in Hamburg, Germany. And I think you have to look at Ziad Jarrah as many -- in much the same way you look at Mohamed Atta in the sense that he was again very intense and very glib in the sense that he was sort of a ringleader who was always trying to buttress the purpose of the other hijackers here. Came from Lebanon, and like Mohamed Atta may have been recruited by the local terrorist organization in that country, Hezbollah, just as Atta, we believe, may have been recruited by Egyptian Jihad when he was a student in Cairo.

KING: We thank you both very much. We'll be keeping up to date with you on a nightly basis. Eileen O'Connor and Tim Padgett. Eileen in Washington. Tim in Miami.

When we come back, Senator Richard Lugar and Senator Chris Dodd. Lots more to come. Don't go away.


ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: Our primary focus is on preventing potential future attacks. We are working hard to identify and locate associates of the hijackers who may pose a threat to this nation, and I want to ask and urge every American to join us in heading off any possible terrorist attacks in the future.



KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE in Washington, Senator Richard Lugar, Republican of Indiana, a senior member of the Foreign Relations Committee, senior member of the Intelligence Committee. Also in Washington, Senator Chris Dodd, Democrat of Connecticut and a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Let's run some things down. Senator Lugar, the FBI in releasing these pictures of the suspects, which we've just discussed, Attorney General Ashcroft says this is a national neighborhood watch. Do you think things can come of it?

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R-IN), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Yes, I think this is a very important part of the full-court press by the FBI, and we all pray that we'll be successful, because this is the smoking out of the suspects, rooting out of the network that is left in the United States at this point that could in fact jeopardize us now, as opposed to potentially coming in from overseas.

I would say it was also a neighborhood watch for the world. My guess is that people in Hamburg, Germany -- you mentioned the English connection today -- they're going to look over this very network, at those pictures, and that's important, because they also had neighborhood experiences. KING: Senator Dodd, this looks like some very effective early investigative work, doesn't it?

SEN. CHRIS DODD (D-CT), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Looks terrific, and let me commend you, Larry, for taking the time out this evening to highlight these individuals and put their photographs up and talk about it. And that kind of programming can do exactly what John Ashcroft talked about and the president talked about. So it's very good work early on.

I think the administration is doing a terrific job. I really must tell you I think the steps they're taking, they're moving with a great deal of deliberateness, and yet they seem to have a pretty good broad scope on this from both the domestic and international perspective. So handling it very, very well.

KING: Senator Lugar, about marshals on every flight, can you afford it? Do you like that idea?

LUGAR: Yes, I like the idea, and we'll have to afford it. We have to get Americans flying again. We have to get America back to work. And the flight business is integral to this.

As we sit here, the GNP is probably in negative territory and may still be going down. We have to pay for this war. We have to pay for all the educational commitments and the domestic agenda that we're voting for now. And this air business, the confidence level is absolutely critical.

KING: If a general, Senator Dodd, thinks a plane is going to affect some major location on the ground, he can order it shot down if he can't reach the president. Good idea?

DODD: Well, yeah, regretfully so. There may be some other alternatives. And by the way, I support as well the marshals, the idea of the National Guard stepping in, in the short term here to deal with airport security, the cockpit security. The president laid out about four or five proposals today, all of which I think make good sense, and talked about this, as well as some people did anyway. But there may be some other means by which we could deal with this.

I didn't realize this, but there's potential the FAA could actually pilot a plane and divert it from its stated destination, or that you could have maybe a release of some gas in a plane that would immobilize passengers, and of course those trying to hijack it. So there may be some alternatives.

But if all else failed, I don't have any question that most Americans would agree with the conclusion that rather than have the kind of destruction we saw in New York and the Pentagon, that that alternative should be taken.

KING: Senator Lugar, there seems to be some confusion vis-a-vis policy and the Taliban. Is it the government's policy to get rid of the Taliban or to get rid of bin Laden and terrorist forces that they may support? LUGAR: The latter, bin Laden and the terrorist forces. I think, as we speak tonight, there still is a Pakistani delegation heading for the Taliban demanding that bin Laden be given up and likewise the rest of the leadership. And I think it's important.

There clearly may be a debate down the trail about the Taliban. We've received some advice from the Pakistanis that intervention into a successor government in Afghanistan is a very tricky area for the Paks as well as for us.

So I would say for the moment we're looking at terrorists and attempting to isolate that situation.

KING: Senator Dodd, what comes first, the plan or the coalition?

DODD: Well, I think it's hard to separate the two, because I think the plan will develop on having a coalition. I -- I suppose it's not inconceivable we could do this alone, but I've got to, without knowing the details, Larry, I've got to imagine that would be a very difficult job, for us to try and do this on our own. So it's going to require, I think, some international cooperation, and I think in the long term some significant international cooperation.

So as this plan is developed, I would assume that the administration and those in positions of authority are working with allies to see how this plan could be put together that will involve them, involve people that can play a critical role in helping us not only apprehend those responsible for this action, but as Dick has pointed out and as you have and others, the president certainly has, this is a long-term deal now.

It's very important, the president said over and over, and it's really important that America understand this. We're not known as a patient people, and yet it's really important that if we're going to really succeed in this it's going to take some time. And it's going to take a lot of work with a lot of friends, a lot of allies, and some maybe who haven't been allies in the past, to develop relationships at least in rooting out this problem. So the plan and the coalition have to go together.

KING: Senators -- Senators Lugar and Dodd, thank you very much. When we come back, a major panel to discuss this growing talk about biological warfare. Don't go away. We'll be right back.


KING: Joining us now on LARRY KING LIVE, from Sydney, Australia, the very familiar face of Richard Butler, former chief weapons inspector for the United Nations Special Commission. They oversaw the weapons inspections in Iraq for two, three years back in the late '90s.

In New York is Richard Holbrooke, the former United States ambassador to the United Nations. Also in New York, Congressman Chris Shays, Republican of Connecticut, chair of the House Subcommittee on National Security. And in Washington, Dr. Jonathan Tucker, director of the chemical and biological weapons nonproliferation program at the Monterey Institute of International Studies, and author of "Scourge: The Once and Future Threat of Small Pox."

Let's start with Richard Butler. Tariq Aziz said in an interview on CNN today that Iraq, Richard, has absolutely no chemical or biological weapons. What do you make of that?

RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER UNSCOM INSPECTOR: Well, I'm absolutely unsurprised, Larry. Iraq misled the U.N. inspectors for 10 years about that.

But let me get straight to the point. What he said is not true. Tariq Aziz, who is Saddam's chief propagandist on these issues, he said to me three years ago in Baghdad in a private conversation, he said, of course, we have biological weapons. And he went on to explain to me the targets against which they propose to use those weapons. This is fully recorded in my book, "The Greatest Threat."

Now, you know, he is not telling the truth. Iraq has chemical and biological weapons. Simple as that. End of story.

KING: Well said. Ambassador Holbrooke, did the U.N. when you were there give a lot of attention, discussion, meetings, groups on biological threats?

RICHARD HOLBROOKE, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Some, it wasn't the central issue. In any case, as Richard Butler -- who served Australia and then the secretariat to the U.N. brilliantly -- can attest the U.N. is not going to be the place this problem will ultimately be solved.

The issue of biological-chemical weapons is one that's going to have to be dealt with by the United States and the leading powers on whatever means are necessary, because of its enormous danger.

KING: Why won't the U.N. deal with it?

HOLBROOKE: Because for two reasons. One, the Security Council of the U.N., 15 members, can only come up with lowest common denominator resolutions, which are acceptable to everyone. And in the case of Iraq, the French and Russians have made things extremely difficult, as Richard recounts in his book. Secondly, the secretariat, under the secretary-general, Kofi Annan -- and I happen to think Kofi Annan is a great secretary-general. But the secretariat is a weak organization that gets undermined. And when Richard served as chief U.N., the head of the U.N. mission in Iraq, he was constantly undermined there.

The U.N. -- I need to be very clear on this, Larry. The U.N. has an important role to play here. Today, Ambassador Negroponte, my successor, introduced into the Security Council an important new resolution on terrorism, which would toughen the sanctions and require nations to get tougher. And we've got to do these things, and building the international coalition, we need to strengthen it through the U.N. But we can't look to the U.N. for the solution, only as a part of the package. KING: Congressman Shays, you have said flat-out that a terrorist chemical-bio attack is inevitable. Am I quoting you correctly?

REP. CHRIS SHAYS (R-CT), CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL SECURITY COMMITTEE: Oh, absolutely. We've had 19 hearings on this: the Bremer Commission, the Gilmore Commission, the Hart-Rudman Commission. It's not a question of if; it's a question of when, where and of what magnitude. The bottom line is the sponsoring countries have it and the terrorists have it.

KING: Now in the current issue of "The New Yorker," it quotes a letter from the secretary of defense William Cohen in July of '99 to "The Washington Post" saying that in the past year dozens of threats to use chemical or biological weapons have turned out to be hoaxes, but it's going to be real. And they contend that no one followed up. No one ever questioned him further on this.

Is that your thought, too?

SHAYS: Well, the commission -- the bottom line is these commissions have all said we haven't had a proper threat assessment. We don't have a national strategy. And we don't have the coordination and organization in government to deal with it.

HOLBROOKE: Larry, if I could just add to what Congressman Shays said, the way the United States government has been arranged, nobody had primary responsibility for this. Secretary Cohen's article is prescient in retrospect, but the Pentagon usually said "not my issue." The FBI and the CIA do things on it, but it's not their priority.

Obviously, there is no question that if these terrorists could have put nuclear, chemical or biological weapons on those planes, they would have done so. We know what kind of people we're dealing with, and therefore, in Governor Ridge's reorganization on this issue, we're going to have to create special ways of dealing with this.

KING: Let's bring in Dr. Tucker in Washington. Your book deals with the once and future threat of smallpox. We may know about the once. What's the future?

JONATHAN TUCKER, CHEMICAL & BIO-TERRORISM EXPERT: Well, even though the disease smallpox was eradicated more than 20 years ago -- and there have been no human cases since 1978 -- it is rumored on the basis of circumstantial evidence that stocks of the smallpox virus may be -- may exist in Iraq, North Korea and other countries. Obviously, these are countries that have developed biological weapons and might be prepared to use them.

So for that reason, the U.S. government is very concerned about this unlikely but potentially catastrophic threat, and for that reason is acquiring additional small pox vaccine in the event that the virus is used as a weapon.

KING: Would you then vaccinate the population, since if people were vaccinated 30 years ago it's probably worn off, right? TUCKER: That's right. The vaccine was only effective for about seven to 10 years. It would, however, be a major and somewhat risky step to begin routine vaccination again, because the vaccine was not totally harmless. It involved a certain risk of complications, particularly in people who are HIV-positive, who are -- who have other immune system impairments. So for that reason, it makes sense to acquire more vaccine, keep it on the shelf in the event that there is a diagnosed case of the disease. It would serve as a kind of insurance policy for that contingency.

KING: Let's include a phone call. Miami, hello.

CALLER: I would like to know why aren't we issuing here gas masks if we have a biological threat to our nation.

KING: Mr. Butler, would you recommend that? Would you issue gas masks to the population?

BUTLER: Oh, I don't think so, Larry. I think the much more important condition is to do the sort of thing that Ambassador Holbrooke was talking about, which is to reorganize homeland defense, and try to ensure as far as possible that a biological or a chemical attack doesn't take place.

By the way, a gas mask is more relevant in the chemical than the biological context.

KING: Congressman Shays, do you kind of go a thin wire here, because you realize, when you make statements like that, you, the fear spreads through the populous? How do you deal with that?

SHAYS: You tell the American people the truth and then they tell their government to do the right thing. That's why it's a war. We have to get at the terrorists before they have a better delivery system on chemical and biological agents, and before they get a nuclear device or radioactive material.

KING: And you have said, Ambassador Holbrooke, that governmental agencies -- FBI, CIA, others -- don't work well together in. Information doesn't process well together.

HOLBROOKE: Oh, it's a disaster, Larry, and in regards to September 11th, people keep talking about the intelligence failure. To me it was a security failure. Mohamed Atta's movements tell you an awful lot about the dangers for the future. The man was put on the CIA watch list. The Immigration & Naturalization Service said, "Hey, he's already in the country." After a while they turned his name over to the FBI. The FBI had been looking for Mr. Atta for a month when on September 11th he boards a plane in Boston under the name of Mohamed Atta.

They had never given his name to the Federal Aviation Administration. The -- American Airlines would have probably bumped him if he had been delinquent in his credit card payments, but they didn't know he was a terrorist and they were looking for him. And this brings me to one key point about CBW and nuclear material, and that is how would they bring it in the country. And here, Larry, I would like to raise a point of great concern I know to Congressman Shays and myself, at least, and that is the U.S.-Canadian border. That is the largest open border in the world, and it must remain open for the economic strength of both countries, $410 billion worth of trade, people who live on one side and work on the other and so on.

On the other hand, if we leave it open with different security systems, we are as vulnerable as whatever the Canadian system. The Canadian system...

KING: What's your answer?

HOLBROOKE: Well, my answer is very simple: We have a common economic system. We need a common security perimeter. Ambassador Paul Cellucci, the former governor of Massachusetts, has publicly been discussing this with the Canadian authorities. I've been calling for it. Governor Ridge is now taking over what I think is one of the most difficult issues in the world, and I hope he will have a separate special area on this, and I hope Congressman Shays and his colleagues will put a special task force on this issue of the border.

KING: Dr. Tucker, how will they bring small pox in?

TUCKER: Well, presumably, it would be smuggled in small vials, and then mass produced...

KING: What do you then? How do you distribute, how do you affect the population?

TUCKER: Well, there are different possible ways it could be disseminated. But I should add that there are significant technical hurdles in acquiring the virus, in producing it. So I don't think this is a likely threat. It's because it is potentially catastrophic that we need the insurance policy of more vaccine. But it is not something that people should panic about. I think there is already too much hysteria in this country about this threat.

It is an emerging threat, it is something we need to deal with, but people should not be buying gas masks and antibiotics. It is not at that level of concern.

KING: Congressman Shays, do you agree with Ambassador Holbrooke and do you intend to follow up on that?

SHAYS: Absolutely. We have major tasks at hand, and we need to develop a national strategy that covers the work. Just one thing, on the sharing of information, the CIA gets information, they don't share it with anyone else. The FBI hasn't shared information with immigration, so Ridge is going to work overtime to get information share. One last point, we need to get all this information together, so we see trends and profiling. HOLBROOKE: Larry, there are 40 to 45 different agencies in law enforcements. On that border alone there are 4 or 5 different agencies that don't share information. It is a tradition of law enforcement and it is going to have to be addressed.

KING: And Richard Butler, do you think Iraq may have been involved in this now?

BUTLER: Larry, I don't have evidence of that. But I do want to add to what has been said in the last few minutes. Talking about defending the country better, better border control and so on is absolutely right. Better organization amongst the agencies concerned, of course that has to happen.

But you know, there is a kind of forward defense that can be entered into, which is to try to ensure that the substances are produced nowhere. You know this conversation has been making a static assumption that Iraq or someone else out there is going to be making chemical and biological weapons, and making them available, for example, to terrorist groups.

I think that assumption is right. I think we've got to be vigilant about it, but you know there is a kind of forward defense that cannot eliminate entirely the problem, but reduce its size, which is international cooperation to make sure that no one makes these dastardly substances.


Maybe this is an opportunity we have (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

KING: I have got to break but we will call on all of you again. I thank you for being with us. When we come back: Airline safety. Don't go away.



GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: KING: When Americans fly there need to be more highly skilled and fully equipped officers of law flying along side them. Now these marshals, of course, will wear plainclothes. They are going to be -- they will be like any other passenger. But Americans will know that there is more of them, and our crews will know there is more of them. And the terrorists...


KING: And we are going welcome to "LARRY KING LIVE" Duane Woerth, president of the Airline Pilots Association, a return visit with Duane. Patricia Friend, international president of the Association Flight Attendants. Jim Hall, former chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board. They are all in Washington. And in Columbus, Ohio, Mary Schiavo, aviation safety expert.

Duane, what did you make about the president's idea of marshals almost everywhere?

DUANE WOERTH, PRESIDENT, AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION.: I think it is a terrific idea and I'm really glad to see that the training is already in progress. We are training at least 4 or 500 a week, accelerating that, and I'm just couldn't be more pleased.

KING: Patricia, will the stewardesses be happy to hear that?

PATRICIA FRIEND, ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS: Could I ask you to call us flight attendants, please, Larry?

KING: I am sorry. It is a throwback to being 67 years old -- flight attendants, OK.

FRIEND: And we are thrilled that the air marshal program is being implemented as quickly as it is.

KING: Are flight attendants nervous, by the way? Are you hearing from a lot of them not willing to fly?

FRIEND: I think understandably the flight attendants are on edge, and are concerned. But they are going back to work and looking very carefully for the improvements to security that will make them feel safe in their workplace again.

KING: Jim Hall, do you see any problem with marshals having weapons, if the possibility of a hijacker taking over a marshal exists and then them having weapons?

JIM HALL, FORMER CHAIRMAN, NTSB: No, I think they will be well- trained, and I think that the president has laid out, Larry, a very good program that I think has been very thoughtfully and deliberately done. I think it is a very good first step. I do believe that as we go forward we need to completely overhaul how we have approached aviation security in the United States.

KING: Mary Schiavo, what did you think of the president's suggestions today?

MARY SCHIAVO, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT: Some were very good, a good first step. The marshals was great news because we had that program before and allowed to it dwindle to a few dozen, as the president was very honest to admit, it is going to take while to get it back. But we didn't hear what we really needed to get Americans back on the planes, and that was, we had nebulous language about increased federal oversight of aviation security.

We didn't really hear how that was going to occur and we still fear, including those from some of the Republican side of the aisle, that it is going to be FAA again. So we need to hear a little more before Americans will willingly go back to the planes.

KING: Duane, are you a little concerned at all about the fact that a general can order a commercial plane shot down?

WOERTH: I think that order really has always existed through the president, he has delegated. But the same rules of engagement will be applied, so I'm confident only be those extraordinary circumstances, just like with United 93 with those brave Americans took that airplane down on their own accord and will be honored as heroes for doing so.

KING: What do you make of the idea of a directive coming out soon advising pilots to avoid airspace above or near sites like power plants, dams, refineries, and other complexes?

WOERTH: We actually worked with the FAA and the Department of Defense in development of that plan including intercepts procedures that the Department of Defense will implement. And the first draft we had some problems with. They were very cooperative and we corrected it and we have signed off, and have sent a safety bulletin on the procedures to our pilots already.

KING: Patricia, what is a flight attendant supposed to do in a hijacking? Is there training?

FRIEND: The training that we have, Larry, is based on the profile of a hijacker of the 70s. Someone who wanted to go to Cuba or wanted a platform for their political beliefs, someone with whom you could negotiate.

We have no training and we have absolutely no familiarity with an appropriate response to the kind of hijackers that took over the airplanes on September 11. We are urging and working with the FAA to immediately update that training so that we will have an more appropriate response.

KING: Jim, what's the roll of the National Transportation Safety Board in this? We hear about them always going after the fact to the accident scene.

HALL: Well, of course, they have been supporting the FBI who has lead responsibility for the investigation providing technical support. They are on the scene in New York and Washington, and in Pennsylvania. They had the responsibility for reading out the recorders which had been done, and very importantly, the family assistance function that we put if place after TWA, 800.

Those individuals are in New York, and trying to assist the families of these brave Americans that were killed on this -- on this horrible day.

KING: Let me take a call. Pittsburgh, hello.

CALLER: Hi. What's the possibility of having a knockout gas in the passenger compartment when something like this happens with an intercom that can be listened to any time by the pilots and what's going on back there?

KING: Would that work, Mary?

SCHIAVO: Well, the knockout gas is troublesome. For example, I carry protective breathing equipment, a smokehood when I travel, which would protect me it. The hijackers could buy them, too.

But the other, the video is coming. That was part of the president's message. And also the thing I would add to that would be realtime streaming video, which would actually be broadcast to the ground so they would know what's going on the plane on the ground. That was recommended by none other than Jim Hall after the tragic murder-suicide crash of Egyptair, and it should have been adopted then.

KING: Duane, your proposal for pilots being armed, the president apparently said he'll be open to listen to it, but he's not too high on it. Does that discourage you?

WOERTH: No, it doesn't discourage me. I'm going to suggest that through my position on rapid response team, that the FBI and the same people who run the federal marshals program, because that's basically what we proposed, that they take a look at it, dissect it, tell us what's right with the program, what needs to be improved,and report to the president.

KING: St. Petersburg, Florida, hello.

CALLER: Hello. Has anyone thought about using our own law enforcement people as additional backup for sky marshals, say vacationing policemen? Give them a free flight, let them take their gun.

KING: What do you make of that? Jim Hall, what do you think of that idea?

HALL: Well, I think all these ideas need be considered. I want to compliment Captain Woerth and Patricia, and the pilots and flight attendants I think have laid out some very thoughtful things that need to be considered.

I'm very pleased with the way the president and his administration are deliberately going after this issue, and I think they will look at and consider almost any reasonable idea.

KING: Patricia, honestly, do flight attendants profile?

FRIEND: Do we profile? Not consciously, but certainly we are much more aware of everything that's going on in the cabin of the aircraft these days, on edge, as I said, and very alert to anything that appears out of the ordinary to us.

KING: Thank you all very much. We'll call on you again. Duane Woerth, Patricia Friend, Jim Hall, and Mary Schiavo.

You know, the actress Angelina Jolie, Academy Award-winning actress. You may not know she's ambassador of the U.N. High Commission for Refugees. In fact, she was there with the refugees in Pakistan just two weeks before the tragedy of September 11th. She's next. Don't go away.


KING: We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Oscar award-winning actress Angelina Jolie, ambassador of the U.N. High Commission for refugees. In her role in that unique post, she goes around the world looking for refugee situations and reporting on them.

You were in Pakistan -- what? -- two weeks before the September 11th, right?


KING: What was it like then?

JOLIE: I was there then, too. I've been trying to travel and learn about different situations, and I keep journals and I try to. So I was there to understand the situation and the need at that time before all this happened. And there are, in Pakistan at that point, there were over 2 million people that are refugees. And there are many of them...

KING: Now they say there are 4 million.

JOLIE: That there are now? There are many urban refugees. There are many people that can't even -- UNHCR is, you know, like many agencies, they have only so many funds, and they are trying to -- I can't talk, this is on.

KING: You can talk.

JOLIE: Oh, they're just -- they're trying their best to take care of as many people as they can, but there are so many people and it's a huge situation. It was then. And a very delicate situation -- and people are still, still seem very -- very malnourished still, are still very sick.

KING: So what does the commission do for them?

JOLIE: They do everything -- they're a protection agency, so they try to make sure that they are safe in those borders, that they are able to survive, and that they're able to have some kind of life. They set up camps, they set up tents for all these people that come across the border with nothing. They try to register them, give them some kind of identification, because when you run, you tend to you have nothing on you.

KING: Leave quickly usually.

JOLIE: And they try to help the children with medical. They try to -- they do everything they can to try to figure out -- they try to help them go back if it's possible. They try to find places elsewhere in other countries to...

KING: Now, you've seen these people, right? You walk...

JOLIE: I've seen the people in Pakistan.

KING: It's a terribly tormented situation to be a refugee. You're in a land you don't want to be.

JOLIE: Yeah, and I think many people, many people -- it's not a very popular thing to talk about, a lot of people have even said coming on here and talking about the Afghan refugees. And they said, you know, at this time, it's, people aren't really open to talking about that. Some -- but they are families just like our families, and I met these people. And we all are very -- we all want the people who are responsible for the terrorist acts to be dealt with.

KING: Sure.

JOLIE: And severely. And yet I know there's not a person out there that wants these families, these millions of people, these refugees are -- they're in the millions, and it's 80 percent women and children.

KING: And they're not terrorists.

JOLIE: Not at all. And they're, they're -- they're a beautiful people, and they're a tortured people, and they're surviving. And they're amazing people and they're amazing to me. But -- but they will be affected, and already last Sunday, as many people know, the U.N. agencies were seized by the Taliban and the food was taken away. And a lot of people depend on this food, and they don't know how it's, you know, how...

KING: Now, the public can help. We understand you can make contributions to get food and like to them. We're going to give you a number. It's 1-800-770-1100. That's 1-800-770-1100. Or you can log on for more information to www.usa...

JOLIE: Forunhcr...

KING: ... Or call 1-800- 770-1100.

What do you think of the, what you've learned of the repression of the Afghan women?

JOLIE: God, I was just -- I was just in shock, I think like most people. I think that the thing that was most shocking for me is I went there and I met them and I talked to a lot of these women, and I think you assume that they're very different from you. You assume that they're -- that somehow they're -- they're living in a very closed-off, smaller world. And somehow they're not -- and I sat alone with these women and talked to them, and they're just like me. And they're just like all of us.

And they've got their kids, they show you that they just want, you know, have heat rashes or sickness. And they -- and they..

KING: They love their children the same way.

JOLIE: They love their children, they love their husbands. They -- you know, they miss their husbands, or their husbands have been killed or are far away or can't find them, or their sons are -- are, you know, in trouble.

KING: Because some of their husbands have also treated them terribly.

JOLIE: Yeah, many of them have. But they're just a people trying to -- I was just so, so amazed by these women. I was really impressed by them, and I really love them.

KING: How do they deal with the mental stress?

JOLIE: How do they?

KING: Yeah.

JOLIE: I have no idea. I couldn't. I don't know how they do. I -- I personally couldn't -- I had enough time being in that country when I was there and I was around them. I -- we are very fortunate in this country, you know, with the freedoms we have that we are trying so hard to protect now. And we understand, and this and these situations with these women there, they go through things that are unimaginable and they don't seem real.

KING: We are starting to feel a lot of things in this country we never felt before. Thank you, Angelina. We'll have you come back.

JOLIE: Thank you very much.

KING: Again that number, 1-800-770-1100. Angelina Jolie is the ambassador to the U.N. High Commission for Refugees.

We close out every night with a musical uplifting performance. We will meet with Naomi Judd right after this.


KING: Joining us now Nashville, the highly acclaimed artist, Naomi Judd, who, with her daughter, Wynnona, one of the most successful singing duos ever, they are going to conclude the program tonight. She and her daughter on record with "Love Can Build a Bridge," but, Naomi, you said you wanted to say something. What do you want to say?

NAOMI JUDD, SINGER: Every time I hear term "terrorist cell," I immediately rebuke it with a counter positive term, family cell. And when I hear you all talking about rebuilding our country, I, being a practical sort, like to think of it as strengthening our families, because we are the building blocks of America.

And when you all talk about getting back to normal, I really hate to see us get back to being the materialistic fat cats that we once were. I think this diabolical event has really stripped us down to understanding finally what really is important, and that is faith, family, friends, and our freedom. And you all talk about seeing the World Trade Center towers as like watching a violent movie, and it makes me have the perspective of just how incredibly violent our culture is.

So, I think that we can really make sense out of this evil by having some good come from it. KING: Bad from good. We only have 30 seconds. Has your faith been affected a at all? Have you questioned your faith after this?

JUDD: You know me better than that, Larry. In fact, I totally agree with America's shepherd, the Reverend Billy Graham, when he said that this is really going reawaken our spiritual identity, and that is after all, what America is based on, because -- one nation under God. But it is really a lasting tribute to all of these people who have lost their lives if we do make America more beautiful.

KING: Thank you, Naomi. Always great seeing you, Naomi Judd with her daughter Wynnona to take us out with "Love Can Build a Bridge." And we will be back.



WYNNONA AND NAOMI JUDD (singing): When we stand together, it is our finest hour. We can do anything, anything, anything, in the power...





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