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CNN Talkback Live

America Speaks Out: When Will Americans Feel Secure in the Skies?

Aired September 27, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Did you cancel a vacation? Are you afraid to fly?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's too early to tell how soon passengers will return.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I came on the senior trip. My daughter said, mom, you're to the going to New York are you. I said, well sure, you can't run scared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Armed sky marshals, federal security agents -- what will it take to make you take to the skies?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Get on the airlines. Get about the business of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Also, tracking potential terrorists on the highways -- who's allowed to transport hazardous materials? Someone with a driver's license and...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's your benchmark. And to be 18 years of age.

QUESTION: You need not be a U.S. citizen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Does that make you nervous?

Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to "TALKBACK LIVE: America Speaks Out." Air Marshalls are in training, some are flying, and even the president is a booster for the airlines today. As some airlines announce massive layoffs and cutbacks in service, the press is on to get people back in the air.

Joining us at San Francisco's International Airport is CNN correspondent Rusty Dornin.

Rusty, it look as little quiet behind you.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's very quiet, Bobbie. San Francisco's business has dropped by about 50 percent. Airport officials have said they probably will lose about $85 million this year. Flights are traveling about half full; 40 to 50 percent of the flights are not even leaving the airport.

Now, I talked to a few folks here about what president's plans were for increasing security. People seemed very happy to hear that there was going to be some bolstering of security at airports, resigned to the fact that it's going to be inconvenient.

But there were a couple of unsettling things for people. I know -- if you travel overseas it's not uncommon to see armed soldiers in airports. But the fact that there will be National Guard soldiers patrolling airports here in the United States, some people found was a little unsettling. They felt like it was similar to what you see in sort of a police state.

Also, of course, the idea that Air Force generals are authorized to shoot down commercial airliners if they are hijacked and are endangering U.S. cities, people found a very sobering reminder of life and times after September 11.

But most people here are happy to hear that there will be some more security measures added. Also, a few folks say that they don't feel the security measures that are ongoing now are doing anything, so they'd like to see some things stepped up -- Bobbie.

BATTISTA: Obviously it's going to take a little while for that to sink in, though, before people step back in that airport.

All right Rusty, thank you very much for joining us.

With us now are Captain Duane Chance; he has been a commercial pilot for 36 years, and is thinking of retiring early. And CNN Washington bureau chief Frank Sesno -- we'll tell you why in just a minute -- why Frank is with us.

Let me start was Captain Chance, though, first of all. You know, people are nervous enough, I think, these days about flying. And when they do get on a plane they look to the crew and the pilot for their security blanket, if you will. I'm just curious as to what you are telling your passengers these days to ease their anxieties?

CAPT. DUANE CHANCE, COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOT: I'm using a lot of the information that was put out to by a captain out of our Denver airport on the Saturday right after the September 11 situation where he was reminding the passengers that they need to be active -- proactive if somebody starts trying to take over the airplane, or if there's any disturbance, because they're in the air with us. They're a family; we're part of a group. And it's only through their proactive situation that will get us back on the ground safely.

BATTISTA: Frank was a passenger on one of Captain Chance's flights in the last week or so.

And Frank, when you heard the captain make that announcement, did that make you feel better or worse?

Hold on Frank, we're having audio problems with you, and we can't hear a word you're saying. So we'll try to fix that and come back to you in just a second.

Captain Chance, I would guess that some of these anxieties also apply to crew members on the flight. How are you having to deal with that? How is the airline dealing with that?

CHANCE: Well, the airline is realizing that it's affected all the employees, just as it has all the people within the United States and across the world -- that there is tremendous emotional effect. And there's been a lot of people brought in to try and do psychological counseling to try and overcome the post-traumatic stress disorders that are manifesting themselves.

And a lot of people, I think, don't realize that this can affect them throughout the rest of their life. And we see this, and just talking to one another we try and talk things through and try and allay people's fears as much as we can as we go together as crew members because it's probably well known that we don't operate as crew members more than about one leg a day. So we have to talk to one another and try and be as much support as we can to one another while we're in the air and on the ground.

BATTISTA: You're thinking about retiring early. Does it have anything to do with the events of the past two weeks?

CHANCE: Well, of course it impacted it tremendously, yes; and my family is very concerned about my work and wanting me to consider retiring early. So I have take their feelings into consideration, also; it's just not my decision.

BATTISTA: All right Frank, we've fixed your audio problems, I think. I had mentioned that you were a passenger on one of Captain Chance's flights, and I was curious as to how you felt when you heard that announcement before you took off.

FRANK SESNO, CNN WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: What I started to say a moment ago is that the captain actually took his announcement a bit past what he shared with you just a moment ago. And if I may, and without putting him on the spot too much, he went on to say that passengers have a responsibility to look one another over, be a family back there. And if someone tries to hijack this plane, if someone causes a commotion, he said hit him, tackle him, throw something at him. But we're depending upon you to help us protect this plane. And he pointed out it was quite possibly the brave passengers who did that in the skies over Pennsylvania that may have saved the Capitol Building or the White House.

Now, you know, we're all used to getting on an airplane, Bobbie, and sitting down and reading our newspapers and ignoring, quite frankly, those of us who travel a lot, the safety announcement. You know, it's rehearsed.

Boy, there was nothing rehearsed about this. There were very few people on the plane. It was eerie enough as it was. But it really made us think; it made us think back in the plane there -- and we did look around at one another -- that we were in something together. Something strange and eerie and very profound, and altogether different.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break here, and then we will press on as I do a couple of e-mails that have come in to us in the last few minutes.

Kay Smith (ph) in Virginia says: "The most important things to me are increased airport security; background checks for all airport staff; trained, professional airport personnel; sky marshals; and a secure cockpit. I don't think I will fly again until better security measures are actually implemented."

We'll talk about those with our two pilots when we come back. Stay with us.

Have the terrorist attacks on America made you afraid to fly? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at CNN.com/TALKBACK. While there, read my note and drop us an e-mail.

Still ahead: Tracking terrorism; why officials are focused on truckloads of hazardous materials.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: I mentioned "two pilots" before the break, because we have another one who's joining us. Retired Brigadier General Art Cornelius is a former commercial airline pilot. Thank you for joining us.

Let me get both of the pilots' views; and I'll start with you, General Cornelius, about the president's proposals today -- whether they go far enough for you.

BRIG. GEN. ART CORNELIUS (RET.), FORMER COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOT: I came to work in the airline industry in 1968. And when I got a look around at the situation, I formed the opinion at that point in time, even before the hijackings of the '70s, that airline pilots probably should be trained and armed. Now, our job is no to act as policeman; our job is to operate the aircraft, to do it smoothly, safely; to get our passengers to their destination.

But with the situation that we're facing today, sometimes it comes to defending the cockpit against instructions, forceful and lethal intrusions, such as we had on September the 11th.

BATTISTA: Captain Chance, a lot of the people in the audience are concerned that you would be deviated from your duties of flying the aircraft if you had to go for a gun.

CHANCE: Well, that's probably a truism. But on the other hand, if we don't go for a gun, where is the airplane going to be? It's going to be a guided missile into some building, possibly. I don't see that that's a real, valid concern.

And as the general pointed out, this has been going on -- and I went to work for the airline industry in 1965 and seen (sic) the evolution over the period of time and realized that the security was very lax, has been pointed out through several reports even in the last few days. People are coming through security with a lot of things that are not supposed to be allowed, and we're still seeing a breech of security in many places.

So the airline pilot in that cockpit is the last zone of defense. It's kind of like being on the front lines on the battlefield without any weapon.

Now, particularly with this situation where they've allowed the military to shoot us down if we're deviating from what our flight plans call for -- so why not give the airline pilot in the cockpit, those that are willing to go through training and the psychological testing and go through whatever the sky marshal program might be, or whatever training they deem necessary and qualify us with weapons so that we can be maybe the second-to-last line of defense instead of being shot down by a military aircraft.

BATTISTA: And General Cornelius, I guess you're assuming that if the hijackers get to the cockpit, then they've already blown through the armed sky marshal.

CORNELIUS: Well, that is my assumption. I am very comfortable having sky marshals on the airplane. I've always appreciated having them there, and they're very effective.

But if you're talking about putting two or three sky marshals on an aircraft, you could conceivably overwhelm them very easily with a total of seven hijackers, or even fewer. You know, I see a scenario where a hijacker or two begins to make a move, the sky marshals expose themselves and then are neutralized by other hijackers, and where are you? You're back to square one.

BATTISTA: Let me get a little audience reaction on this -- Corbett (ph), how do you feel about guns in the cockpit?

CORBETT: Well, I asked my cousin Kristin (ph) for a little more input on this, because she's at Purdue right now studying to be a pilot. And, basically, it was her idea that pilots have a little bit more to concentrate on while they're flying. And, respectfully, the pilots that are speaking to us right now, they know more than I do about this. But it would seem easier, maybe, for the marshals to definitely be the ones that were in charge of the security on the plane, and maybe have a guard at the cockpit door, and leave the flying up to the pilots.

BATTISTA: I got hands up everywhere. Go ahead, over here to Shawn (ph).

SHAWN: If all else fails, pilots need a way of defending themselves and defending the country with terrorists attacking the planes. It's essential.

BATTISTA: And over here to Howard (ph)?

HOWARD: Well, I disagree. I think that having a Federal Marshal onboard would be the first line of defense. And really would not feel too secure having a pilot with a gun.

CHANCE: Bobbie, may I say that, as pointed out earlier to one of the correspondents, for years we've had people in the cabin armed. We have different agencies -- FBI, INS, EPA Agriculture Department, sheriff's department from whatever county they might be from -- they are allowed to carry weapons on the aircraft.

And in responding to the one individual that said we have more to do than look after it, we aren't talking about us coming out of the cockpit to try and subdue somebody. We're talking about the last thing...

BATTISTA: I've got to interrupt. I'm sorry captain, I've got to interrupt because of...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Couple of e-mails. Darryl in Oregon says: "One thing is for sure: Airline passengers will no longer sit there and allow terrorists to take over a plane. I believe most people now would fight back, knowing what the terrorists might do. This may be the safest time ever to fly in history. We must get back on those planes and show we're not afraid. We cannot be intimidated."

Most of our audience agreed with that, that they would take action if necessary.

Richard in Wheeling, West Virginia says: "Give the flight attendants stun guns and judo lessons."

Let me can ask General Cornelius and Captain Chance if -- has there been discussion about -- of possibly bringing the flight attendants into the front line of defense here?

CHANCE: Not to my knowledge.

BATTISTA: They have too much to worry about, or are they too vulnerable because of some of the things they're doing onboard?

CORNELIUS: Well, they are vulnerable. You know, they walk down the aisle with a tray in each hand, or they're pushing a heavy cart that weighs more than they do. If they were armed, disarming them would be a fairly simple process, and neutralizing them as a consequence. So I don't see that that would be a good thing for us.

BATTISTA: Barbara (ph) on the phone in Wyoming. Go ahead, Barbara.

CALLER: Yes, my comment is regarding photo cameras in the cabins of the airplanes. I think this would be an excellent idea that could be implemented quickly. And my concern is sky marshals, it's already been said, would not be on every flight. And there are thousands of people who travel all over this country from smaller feeder airlines into the international and hub airports. I think the cameras could be put into every single airplane more economically, and at a quicker amount of time than it would take to do some of the other things that have been talked about.

BATTISTA: How do you guys feel about that -- surveillance cameras?

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: I know the audience likes it. I was asking the pilots.

Go ahead.

CHANCE: My opinion is, OK, we get cameras on the airplane; we still don't have any defense when we're in the cockpit. So we see that there's a disturbance going on. There's a lot of places in this country where you're a ways from an airport to get on the ground. So now you see a disturbance; now what are you going to do?

CORNELIUS: I think the camera is a very good move, but it is only part of the overall plan to provide additional security; it won't do it itself. It gives you information, but you have to be able to defend the cockpit area and the passengers.

BATTISTA: Kim (ph) in the audience, go ahead.

KIM: Yes, I think if you take out a few seats in the front, turn them around to where you can put an armed guard that's facing the back of the plane, who sees everything that's going on, then you have someone there that knows how to defend the plane, knows how to use weapons, and can be a last line of defense before someone breaks through to the airline pilot's door.

BATTISTA: Speaking of that door, would you guys feel better, you know, if they develop a much better door, a much more secure cockpit door? Would you feel the need to have a gun in there still?

CORNELIUS: Depends on the security; depends on the door. You're still going to have to get in and out. And here again, simply having a gun is not the answer. You have to be trained. You -- and not everyone is going to be comfortable with this. The deal is, is that if hijackers know that certain, some portion of the cockpit crews are armed, they don't know who is armed and who is not. And going to cause them to take a little bit more cautious approach perhaps than hat we have seen in the last couple of weeks. BATTISTA: The other concern that I have heard people bring up is that if there are guns on board, in the cockpit or not, is that if a bullet happens to go off for whatever reason, that it could pierce the fuselage and cause problems -- what about that, Captain Chance?

CHANCE: That is true, but I think that it is something that is possibly overblown, that if a gun goes off and it does pierce the skin, it could cause a de pressurization. But on the other hand, at that point, it is going to be a deal of are you going to die by de pressurization or are you going to die by being a human missile?

CORNELIUS: Not only that, there are bullets available that will fracture, disintegrate into much less lethal parts once they strike something like the hull of the aircraft. And there again, we are trained to deal with de pressurization. We know what to do about that. And you take the airplane down and you get down where you can breathe. So that is an issue that we deal with in training.

BATTISTA: All right. General Cornelius and Captain Chance thanks very much for joining us. Appreciate the education.

CORNELIUS: Quite welcome.

CHANCE: You are more than welcome, thank you.

BATTISTA: Joining us now with the latest on the investigation are CNN's Kelli Arena and Evan Thomas, assistant managing editor of "Newsweek" magazine and a lead reporter on the story. Where we are focused now is not so much that we are afraid that an airplane might be the next target, but now we seem to be focused on the transport of hazardous waste.

Because it would appear that a number of people got or tried to get licenses to transport hazardous waste. Kelli, how big of a net have they cast and how many have they caught?

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We do know that Justice has said that at least ten people have been arrested in connection with getting licenses to drive vehicles that would allow them to carry hazardous material. However they have said that none of those people have been directly linked to the terrorist attacks. So while they are casting a wide net, whether or now they will actually get anybody who they can directly link to this situation now is very unclear.

In New York City they are inspecting every single truck. Across the nation they are making -- taking those little more carefully and not on trucks. The investigation has gone way beyond that. Nuclear power plants are being secured and here in Washington, D.C. you have secured areas that have increased around many monuments in the capitol, for example, where vehicle are not allowed through without proper identification.

So while there has been a lot of attention paid to trucks carrying hazardous materials because it is so dramatic, the thought of someone driving hazardous materials and causing damage, that is not just the main focus. BATTISTA: Evan, how real is the threat? Does the government have any idea how many more terrorists there may be out there who are planning other attacks?

EVAN THOMAS, "NEWSWEEK" MAGAZINE: No. They have arrested about 300 people. But that doesn't any of those people have said anything that is directly relevant either to the September 11 attacks or future attacks, but you know, it is early. It may sound like two weeks is a long time but in an investigation two weeks is not, especially when if they have captured the would-be terrorist, they are not likely not to be talking.

If they are willing to die they are presumable not going to be too eager to cough it up for the Feds. And there is a limited amount of leverage that the Feds have. We don't torture in this country and we can threaten to send them home but there are even restrictions on that. There is a limited amount of persuasion that the FBI has to make these folks talk.

BATTISTA: So if we can't tie them to the terrorist attacks or any future attacks they basically could end up back out on the street?

THOMAS: They could. Already, this doctor down in Texas has been let out. He may be perfectly innocent. I don't mean to imply in anyway that he is not, but it does tell you that after a while they have to say OK, you can go home.

BATTISTA: Janice is on the phone in Missouri. She is a truck driver. Janice, go ahead.

JANICE: Yes, Ma'am. I do have a hazmat endorsement on my license. I have never pulled hazmat but I know that our DOT inspectors, they are very on top of this. Anytime they see hazmat on your truck they will call you in. And if you just look suspicious, of you don't have a hazmat on there they will call you in. They have no problem with this.

But on the airlines I believe that the cockpit doors should be just what the pilots can open and that is it and maybe even a federal marshal within for a while and on the bomb-sniffing dogs I believe they should have access to all the luggage because I know that somebody may try to sneak a bomb on someday again more or less and not only that, I just don't believe the pilots should not have guns. Maybe some would like them, some would not, but I believe if we have the federal marshals on there in plain clothes, I think that would do a lot.

We had a trip planned for Hawaii but we have canceled it because we are scared right now.

BATTISTA: Oh, get on a plane, Janice. Go have fun. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, there are a number of arrests being made worldwide, Kelli. It would seem that Germany, we had arrests yesterday in Spain that were tied to American targets possible overseas, but Germany also seems to be a focal point. What is the latest from there? ARENA: We do know that several of the hijackers have been linked to addresses in Germany. Were seen talking to associates in Germany. That is a focal point of this investigation. The question here is linking any of the intelligence from the Germany to the terrorist attacks here. Much of the information gathering that has gone on in Europe is dealing with plots that were against U.S. interests there, not here.

While the net is wide, what may end up happening is that there are people connected to terrorist organizations that do get arrested are brought into custody and perhaps even convicted. But whether or not they have any direct links, again, with what happened here on September 11 is questionable at this point.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Keith in the front row, here. Keith, you are retired British Army?

KEITH: Yes, Ma'am.

BATTISTA: Your comment.

KEITH: On the investigation I have just had to file papers to prove that my American wife and I have been married correctly and have are living together with bank statements, et cetera, et cetera.

I have a letter back saying it is going to take them up to 360 days to go through these papers. What is this going to do with the immigration people that are looking at the immigrants who have come in from Arabian countries and these people who have come in illegally?

BATTISTA: The backlog it is creating. I don't know if any of our guests can answer that question.

Is Osama bin Laden, Evan, still the centerpiece of this investigation or is the face of it beginning to change, if you will?

THOMAS: I think he is what he always has been. He is the man that we want to catch and kill and we may send Delta Force into some cave to get him, but from the very beginning they have said that he is only one of several that al Qaeda is in alliance of a number of groups, that there a lot of snakes in the swamp, and he is only the largest and most visible snake.

He may not even be the most-threatening operational guy. He has people around him that travel with him who are possibly more threatening and I am sure there are people in any one of these 65 countries where as Qaeda operates who can do us great harm.

BATTISTA: I have to take another break here but we saw pictures earlier of the suspected hijackers. We will talk a little bit about them when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Kelli, earlier today the attorney general released photographs of the suspected hijackers on those four flights. What do we know about these guys? They seem to have assimilated pretty easily into Western culture.

ARENA: Well we do know that 16 of 19 of them came in using legal visas. Most of them lived in southern Florida and some, the ones at least that crashed into the Pentagon lived in the Maryland area. I should say, Bobbie, it is interesting because the FBI was very hesitant about releasing the photos.

They tried to do as much background work as they could before they did release them, but even today the FBI director admitted that while they are confident that the faces are the faces that indeed were on those planes, the names that are attached to those are still up for grabs. And he would not elaborate on exactly how many they were 100 percent confident of, but there could be cases of mistaken or stolen identify here. So they put the pictures out and said if you have any information get it to us whether it has to do with the person's identity or with possible associates.

BATTISTA: Evan, I think one of the thinks that is certainly confusing to some people if you are following this investigation, the more we learn about these guys, they were supposedly, we are lead to believe, religious fanatics or Muslim fundamentalists, zealots if you will, and yet they were living a lifestyle, drinking, or going to strip clubs or Mohamed Atta supposedly had a German girlfriend. That seemed to be outside the parameters of the Koran which doesn't add up.

THOMAS: Except that human nature operates in mysterious ways. I would not expect them to be utterly faithful to the Koran. They are human like the rest of us, and I have read theories about this...

BATTISTA: Were they in it for religious or political motivation?

THOMAS: Or because they were psychologically demented. I mean, there are lots of motivations all interwove, all, in some way, connected to each other. People rarely do something purely for a religious or a political reason. Usually there is some other more personal motivation as well.

The one that we know the most about, Atta, comes from a vary proper middle class family, but clearly had trouble getting along with women, according to his own father had some strange thing about women. Who knows what that was about.

BATTISTA: It will be interesting to learn more and more about it.

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