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CNN Talkback Live

America Speaks Out: What's Behind the bin Laden Tapes?

Aired October 08, 2001 - 15:22   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TAVIS SMILEY, GUEST HOST: Coming up on TALKBACK LIVE, "America Speaks Out."

The U.S. and Britain strike the first blows in the war on terrorism, but do you feel safer?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSAMA BIN LADEN (through translator): This is America filled with fear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMILEY: Are you afraid the strikes on Afghanistan will trigger more terrorist attacks? Plus what is exactly the military strategy? It's your chance to ask a general.

I'm Tavis Smiley, in for Bobbie Battista. "TALKBACK LIVE: America Speaks Out" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SMILEY: Welcome to "TALKBACK LIVE: America Speaks Out." I'm Tavis Smiley, in for Bobbie Battista all week long.

As you watch CNN's ongoing coverage of "America Strikes Back," we have been having a conversation here in Atlanta with our audience about the possibility of more terrorist attacks in the United States. The question many are asking in this audience today is not if, but when and where terror will hit home again. An overwhelming majority of Americans support the strikes, but with the threat of retaliation looming, do they make you feel more or less secure?

And as military planes drop bombs and food simultaneously in Afghanistan, can the U.S. have it both ways? Food and bombs? Call us. E-mail us. Let us know what you think about these and other subject matter.

We also want to talk about the frightened words of Osama bin Laden. I live in Los Angeles, and last night I was boarding a plane in L.A., or in the airport about to board a plane to come to Atlanta to host the show, TALKBACK LIVE, for the entire week. And as I'm walking through the airport, I look up on the screen and I see bin Laden for the first time speaking to America, indeed talking about America. And it wasn't just me. Every passenger, every traveler in the entire terminal was frozen in his or her tracks, not watching football, but watching bin Laden.

Let's roll that tape for a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIN LADEN: ... and when God has guided a bunch of Muslims to be at the forefront and destroy America, a big destruction, I wish God would lift their position...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMILEY: I don't know if the tape frightens you. And if I had a dime for every time I've heard -- and it is true, don't get me wrong -- that the goal of these terrorists is to put fear in our hearts, I think for many of us they succeeded. Bin Laden got my attention yesterday as I moved through the airport. And I've been asking our audience whether or not they were frightened when they saw bin Laden uttering those words to our country, asking our audience whether or not they feel more or less secure. Everybody said after the fact that we've got to go get him, we've got to do something. President Bush said we've got to hunt him down and smoke him out.

Well, we're trying to do that now. I wonder, though, whether or not we feel more or less secure. Steve, how about you? You from Florida. Do you feel more or less secure now that we've -- we're engaged now in day two, it seems, of these attacks on Afghanistan?

STEVE: I think we have to feel less secure simply because of the circumstances. The bar has been raised to the point that I worry about copy cats.

You know, prior to this happening in the United States, the worst attack we ever had was Oklahoma City, and this has raised the bar so high that not only do we have to worry about what they can do, but what people here can do in our country, copy cats. And that's certainly a concern.

SMILEY: Any number of things we could have done, I guess. Do you think we did the right thing in this case? Is going after the Taliban the way we're doing it the right thing to do from your perspective?

STEVE: I don't think we had any choice. I really don't.

SMILEY: By a round of applause. Yeah, go ahead. Applaud Steve, first of all.

(APPLAUSE)

By round of applause -- let me digress for a moment. By a round of applause, let me ask whether or not you feel more secure or less secure. How many of you feel more secure after the attacks?

(APPLAUSE) SMILEY: I'm not feeling that. How many of you feel less secure after the attacks?

(APPLAUSE)

About even. About even.

Chris, who do you have over there?

CHRIS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

TOM: Yeah, I feel, definitely I feel more secure , because of the fact that when you take something out, it's gone. And the more we take them out, you know, the next generation, they had their training camps, all this stuff, take it out. As Teddy Roosevelt said, walk softly, but carry a big stick. It's time to use the big stick.

(APPLAUSE)

SMILEY: All right. That's what Tom thinks.

Neat is from Georgia. Neat, I wonder what you feel. Do you feel more secure, less secure after the attacks yesterday and today, and specifically, when you saw that the bin Laden tape, what went through your mind?

NEAT: I think his main idea, idea for us, all of us to be scared and to be terrorized. My thinking is, you know, this (UNINTELLIGIBLE), we've got to be aggressive, but we've got to be, you know, strong. We've got to be bold but we've got to be cautious. You know, we've got to be calm, but have trust in each other.

I think (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I think it's baby steps at a time, but you've got to be able to answer back. There's no such thing as not doing anything. I think we all want to be safe, but you know, this is the way to do it. This is the way to do it: Let's keep going ahead, and you know, knock them down. Let's do it.

SMILEY: Laurie, what do you think?

LAURIE: I actually don't feel strongly one way or the other. I think, unfortunately, this is something that we set ourselves up for. We became too comfortable with day-to-day living. And unfortunately, terrorism has been a result of that.

But at the same time, I've also seen the people come together and unite, and so, that gives me an increased sense of security in that we're going to get something done.

SMILEY: Carolyn, do you feel more secure, less secure?

CAROLYN: I feel less secure in the short run, but I feel more secure in the long run. And I don't know, there was a comment made earlier about the fact that we've been going on our day-to-day life, and that kind of like is wrong. But I feel that it's good, that Americans, or any group of people, should be able to go on their life from day-to-day and not have to worry about those kinds of things. And so I think this is something that America would like to retain and get back, and the only way is he's been allowed to go on and on and the Taliban by hurting their own people. And nobody -- their women and children and people who are defenseless. And now he's up against a country that is not defenseless, and I think it's good.

SMILEY: I want to bring in the general in just a second and get some questions for him. But before I do that, I want to ask Matthew whether or not you think what has transpired yesterday and now again today means that we are basically inviting more terrorism to the United States. Is this going to cause America to be hit again because of our actions yesterday and today?

MATTHEW: I think we don't have a choice. I think that's going to happen. Again, like I said, but it's our job to make sure that we do our part: you know, take control of our personal, look around ourselves, and make sure that we're aware of our surroundings.

We can prevent a lot of this.

SMILEY: Let me bring in -- thank you, Matthew. Let me bring in retired General Wesley Clark, a former NATO supreme allied commander. You've seen him on CNN in the previous days giving us updates and his -- his perspective on things that are happening many, many miles away.

General, first of all, thanks for joining us. Glad to have you on.

RET. GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Glad to be here, Tavis.

SMILEY: Let me start by asking you whether or not this -- this attack on the Taliban so far is successful. And how do we define what success is?

CLARK: Well, it's too early to know whether it's going to be successful in the long-term, but it's certainly successful in getting our aircraft in, striking targets that we planned for, getting our aircraft out safely, and keeping the pressure on the Taliban. And so, that's the first measure of success. It got in there, dropped the weapons, and apparently with good results. But it'll take several days to know exactly what targets we hit and it'll take longer to know what the overall effects are.

So you have to look at it over time. But For now, success, you bet.

SMILEY: Let me ask what the latest developments are and whether or not there is a distinct difference between what we were doing yesterday and the kind of targets we were hitting yesterday and what's actually happening today as we speak.

CLARK: Well, this is a follow-on attack after the first night. It's generally the same types of targets. What was noteworthy last night was that not only did we attack the air fields and radars and surface-to-air missiles, which would be expected in the first night of attack, we also hit some of the troops. And Secretary Rumsfeld told us today, these were the Taliban troops that were trained and organized and equipped by al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization.

So I think it's noteworthy that right from the outset we've gone after some of his troops, and I'm sure we did some more of that tonight.

I think this is just a repeat of the same types of targets, different targets, different aim points, but finishing the job from the first night.

SMILEY: I don't mean this question, general, as a slight to Afghanistan, but certainly, as we all know, this is a country that has seen fighting for many years. I'm almost curious as to what's left to bomb in Afghanistan.

CLARK: Well, you've got the military organization of the Taliban. Believe it or not, there are headquarters and radios and radars and artillery pieces and tanks and storage, ammunition storage and fuel storage. And we have to find all that and take it out. That's the way we change the relationships on the battlefield, put the pressure on the Taliban, and in turn put it on Osama bin Laden, and keep him off balance. Makes us safer at home.

SMILEY: One of the question that came up in our conversation while we were watching the president at the White House just moments ago -- and I want to make room for the audience, general, to ask some questions themselves. But one of the issues that came up is how in fact you can avoid hitting civilian targets. It seems like, you know, we're trying to have it both ways, we're dropping bombs, we're dropping food. A concern with some in this audience that it's kind of difficult in a place like this perhaps to avoid civilian casualties.

CLARK: Well, we can see what the buildings and facilities are that we're striking down to the resolution of, let's say, a few inches. So we know precisely what they are and where they are. Our weapons are accurate to within a few inches, and we put the weapon right on the target. And we've done all the calculations to let us know, for example, how far out from a target the blast or the fragmentation from the bomb will have an effect. And so we use the smallest possible weapon. We aim it in positions where it won't hurt innocent civilians.

You can never prevent 100 percent injury to innocent civilians. Somebody could always walk in there, walk down the street and get hit by a bomb that's headed at a military target. But you can be sure that the United States is striking only military targets and striking them with great care.

SMILEY: Since this is TALKBACK LIVE, general, we want to give our audience a chance to interact with you personally. So let me go the audience. Chris, who do you have over here?

CHRIS: This is Keith, and he's a veteran from Ohio. Go ahead.

KEITH: General, it was a pleasure to serve under your command.

CLARK: Thank you.

KEITH: Just we've heard a lot in the Gulf War about an exit strategy. I haven't heard that term this time around.

CLARK: Right. You're not going to hear that term, because all the options in this case are open-ended. As the president's made clear and the secretary of defense has said, attacking these targets in Afghanistan, the targets that are the Taliban regime and al Qaeda, are really only the first step.

We're not sure yet where this will go. It could end here. It could require more actions elsewhere.

And as is always the case in a conflict, it's a two-sided endeavor, and what the enemy does will in part determine what we do later.

SMILEY: Let me interject, general, for a moment, with all due respect to your fine expertise. It frightens me a little bit -- maybe it's just me -- it frightens me just a little bit, though, when you tell me that I'm not going to hear, that we are not going to hear talk of an exit strategy. It seems to me that getting in is the easy part. Getting out is the more difficult part, and yet nobody wants to articulate what that exit strategy might be.

CLARK: Well, I think it's too early to do that, because the full extent of the terrorist network is not known nor is it clear exactly which states that have supported terrorism in the past are now going to see it in a new way and not support terrorism in the future. And so it would be premature if the United States were to say, this is all we're going to do, this is the exit, and we're stopping after this.

Remember, this was an attack on the United States of America. This was not an earthquake that happened in New York City that took down the World Trade centers, or for that matter that blew up that side of the Pentagon. This was a deliberate effort to harm us. They will attempt to harm us again unless we go after that terrorist network and its support.

And so we don't really have an option here. Failure is not an option for the United States. The United States has to follow through. It has to succeed wherever that trail of requirements takes us.

And so it would be presumptuous for the administration to define an exit strategy this early.

SMILEY: General, we've got to take a break. We want to thank you for coming on. We appreciate you being with us. We'll take a quick break, and TALKBACK LIVE will continue with more in just a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSAMA BIN LADEN (through translator): These events have split the whole world into two camps, the camp of belief and the disbelief. So every Muslim shall take -- shall support his religion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMILEY: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Tavis Smiley. We've seen the tape of Osama bin Laden, but what's the message behind his words?

To help us read between those lines, CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen. He's writing a book on bin Laden and Islamic militant groups around the world. Peter, how are you, sir?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Good. Thanks, Tavis.

SMILEY: Thanks for coming on. Let me start by asking whether or not this tape was basically an admission of guilt by bin Laden, as you saw it.

BERGEN: Well, pretty much, I think. I mean, it fits a pattern of other statements he's made in which he's generally said he's happy that the embassies in Africa were bombed in '98. He's happy that the USS Cole was bombed in Yemen. The tape yesterday made it perfectly clear that he was very happy that the Trade Center had been bombed. He praised the people involved as heroes.

So it's part of a general pattern. He didn't directly take responsibility, because that would obviously cause him some political problems with the Taliban, since they've said he had nothing to do with it. But it's part of his larger pattern, Tavis.

SMILEY: Who was he speaking to? I watched this tape a couple of times, and I'm trying to figure out who he was talking to. Was he talking to, as we like to say in our community, was he preaching to the choir, talking to the faithful? Was he talking to the U.S. government, the American people, the world? Who was this tape directed at, the audience specifically?

BERGEN: I think it was directed at the world, Tavis. I think it was well-thought-out. He understood that there was going to be an American response. I'm sure he didn't realize it was going to be the same day that the tape actually came out. But he well understands how the media operates. The media needs pictures and it needs statements from people who are news worthy. And he's understood that in the past. He's had a number of tapes circulating. This one is, of course, now the most well-known.

SMILEY: What -- you know, you mentioned that he didn't -- the tape came out sooner than he expected. Do we have any idea -- and there's been some debate about a couple of things. One of them was when this tape was actually made. Any thoughts on that?

BERGEN: I think it was made, Tavis, some time in the last several days, perhaps maybe, you know, 10 days. It's shot obviously somewhere in a very remote part of Afghanistan, where he's hiding. To get that tape to Kabul, the capital, would have taken some time. I think it was just a coincidence that it happened to arrive at the Arabic-language news station in Kabul the very day that the U.S. launched the strikes.

But I'm thinking probably several days, or perhaps earlier than that, but definitely after the Trade Center attacks.

SMILEY: Speaking of after the attacks, do you think that bin Laden expected the U.S. to respond, react sooner? Did we respond later than he expected? I mean, what -- what's his sense -- your sense rather of how he viewed our attack in terms of its timing?

BERGEN: On timing I can't help you, because I can't read his mind. But I can tell you one thing that he certainly is a fairly intelligent man and he well-understood that there was going to be American response.

And the reason I say that is that two days before the World Trade Center attacks, Ahmed Shah Massoud, who was the leader of the Northern Alliance at the time, probably one of the most effective guerrilla leaders, and perhaps even in the modern era, was assassinated by two Arabs, who I'm sure were working for bin Laden. So bin Laden had already anticipated in my mind that there was going to be a response from the Americans, and that one of the first things they'd do would be to try to get Massoud on side.

Of course, with his death that took out the most effective commander against the Taliban and bin Laden.

So I think the tape and the assassination of Massoud fits a pattern of bin Laden understanding what United States responses would be, Tavis.

SMILEY: Let me get a comment from Barry right quick. Then I want to bring in Christiane Amanpour, who's standing by Islamabad. But first, Barry -- Barry.

BARRY: After hearing those statements, the thing that's going through my mind is how scared is bin Laden. He says that there's all these threats going around to the United States. But really, how scared is he, if any?

BERGEN: "The New York Times" described him as almost like he was going on a camping trip in terms of his untroubled demeanor in a story they did today. I don't think -- this is a man who's not very easily intimidated and appears not to be intimidated in this tape.

SMILEY: Joining us now from Islamabad, CNN correspondent Christiane Amanpour.

Christiane, how is this bin Laden tape being received in your part of the world?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, firstly, in terms of how it was represented, it was obviously on all the television networks. It's being reported in the following day's -- today's newspapers here. And clearly, bin Laden and his message does resonate with a very radical minority in Pakistan and around the Islamic world.

However, it's important to understand that many, many other people, an overwhelming majority of people we've talked to, say that is somebody who does not represent the Islamic world, who is engaged in actions, supports, and sympathizes with actions that most Muslims in the Islamic world have condemned, and say basically nothing justifies, particularly that attack on the United States September 11th.

And even before this military action started by the United States and the United Kingdom and its allies, people here, even in Pakistan, were saying that if Osama bin Laden did that attack on the United States, well, then he should be punished, because this is something that we simply cannot accept. So they were very clear about saying that: If he did do it and if they feel that he is proved to have done it, then they feel that he should be punished.

I think importantly also to say that many, many people in the Islamic world feel that although bin Laden talks about Islam and defending Islam, people here feel quite the contrary, that his actions and what he supports and he espouses in fact defames and sullies Islam.

He talks about freedom. Well, most people here know that what he espouses is quite the opposite of freedom. He is part of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, which is one of the most repressive governments that occupies space in the world right now.

So all of the words are, quite frankly, disconnected to reality. And as I say, many, many people question his motives. They do remember that he has moved the goal posts -- and I know Peter Bergen will remember that he made some of his initial statements to Peter Bergen and Peter Arnett during an interview. And he started by talking about liberating Saudi Arabia, the holy land, as he called it, from the infidel occupiers, United States troops.

Then he moved on to deciding that he would talk about the Iraqi people, who were suffering in Iraq under sanctions there. Only recently has he started talking about the Palestinians and the situation between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

So it's frankly not at all clear exactly what he espouses except this fanatical anti-Americanism. And I think that's very clear for many -- for many Muslims in this part of the world.

SMILEY: I'm going to ask Peter and Christiane to stand by. We have a number of audience questions for them. We'll do some of that after the break, and share some fascinating and interesting e-mail we're receiving here at TALKBACK LIVE.

We'll continue in a moment. Stay where you are.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SMILEY: Welcome back. First, a couple of e-mails from Gerard in Oakdale, New York. "Bin Laden's video, a scripted attempt at terror, does not frighten me. Evil hides, evil runs, evil needs to be rooted out." Gerard in Oakdale, we thank you.

From John in Toronto, Ontario: "This is a lot different than Iraq. The more I listen to bin Laden, the more I feel like it's Christians against Muslims. It's important that when we deal with these issues that religion stays out of it and focus on the real issue terrorism."

John, we thank you.

A question for Christiane. Who do you have over there?

CHRIS: This is Paul. Paul, you're from England. Go ahead.

PAUL: My question is for Christiane in Islamabad. Why is it that the Pakistani authorities are so unwilling to break links with the Taliban? Bin Laden has already said this is believers against nonbelievers, which makes me think it's also the Western alliance against the non-Western alliance. Why does Pakistan want to side with the Taliban?

AMANPOUR: Well, let's be very clear about this. Pakistan is not siding with the Taliban. Pakistan has said that it is the only country to retain diplomatic relations, because it believes that if there's any chance of any conversation or talk coming from the Taliban to the international community, well, then there has to be a link left open.

Pakistan has shown quite clearly to the world in standing with the international coalition that it has abandoned the Taliban and is not standing with the Taliban right now.

And just one more thing: You know, the international community -- the United States, Britain, all the people in this coalition, the West -- have made it very, very clear over and over again that this is in fact not a war against Islam. But bin Laden is trying to make it a war between Islam and the United States. And he made that again clear in his videotape.

So I think you have to be very, very careful about who's trying to create these schisms. So far by their words and actions, the coalition has been very clear about what this is. It's an operation to try to end terrorism, as difficult and complex as that might be. But it's bin Laden and the radicals who support him and who espouse his brand of medieval Islam who believe that it should be a war between Islam and the West.

SMILEY: Peter, our time is running out. Given what Christiane said a moment ago about how -- about the reaction to bin Laden in the Islamic world, I wonder whether or not long term -- maybe short term -- this might backfire on him within the Islamic community.

BERGEN: Well, let me -- let me pick up on something that Christiane has been saying. There's something very important for us to understand, which is the Koran itself is very specific about the protections afforded to the people of the book, the very Jews and Christians that bin Laden has declared war against.

And secondly, the Koran is very explicit about the protections afforded to civilians. Even in a -- even in a time of war -- and I think it's very important that we perhaps even start deploying the language of Islam himself against bin Laden, because there's plenty in Islam which shows that bin Laden's war is really evil and wrong.

SMILEY: One last quick question for Peter. I've got less than a minute there Chris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In all the discussion about bin Laden's motives for the recent attacks, we keep hearing about holy war and about that he hates America and Americans. But we haven't heard any specific policy reasons or any specific actions the U.S. has done that has made bin Laden take on these attacks.

SMILEY: A 30-second response, Peter.

BERGEN: It's very simple: He's opposed to pretty much every American foreign policy initiative in the Middle East, whether it's support for Israel, bombing campaigns in Iraq, support for governments like Egypt and Saudi Arabia. It's pretty much the entire Middle Eastern policy of the United States.

SMILEY: Peter Bergen, I thank you for coming on. Christiane Amanpour from Islamabad, thank you for coming on. Most of all, thank you to our audience for being here. Give yourselves a round of applause.

TALKBACK LIVE again tomorrow. Same time, same station. Tavis Smiley in for Bobbie Battista. We'll see you again tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN. Have a great day.

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