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American Morning

America Strikes Back: Interview of Bernard Haykel, Islamic studies professor

Aired October 10, 2001 - 09:19   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Here to help us read between the lines of the statements coming from Osama bin Laden and his network is Bernard Haykel. He is an assistant professor of Islamic studies at New York University.

Good to have you with us.

Secretary Powell also talked about how prudent it is not to air in its entirety what the al Qaeda spokesperson said, because the message might be coded in some way for some Muslim fundamentalists out there. Do you share his concern?

BERNARD HAYKEL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: I think there is a possibility that it might be coded, but it would be very difficult to know what that code is. For example, the spokesman yesterday, Abdul Salam Zaeef, may have used a verse of the Quran, which, if he were to say it on air, would immediately send some signal, and there is no way we would know that unless we were on the inside.

ZAHN: Break it down for us, what you heard, first of all, in that statement, and then we will move on to the previous bin Laden tape.

HAYKEL: Right.

The central message of yesterday's statement -- which was, incidentally -- also the central message of Sunday's statements -- was basically a challenge to the Muslim world. Essentially, what these characters are saying, bin Laden and his colleagues, to Muslims either you are with us -- and since we are conducting a jihad -- either you are with us and then you will go to heaven, you will be good Muslims, or if you choose the other side or if you do nothing, you will go to Hell. And that is what Muslims are basically confronted with by this challenge.

ZAHN: That's an obvious misstatement. There is nothing coded there, right?

HAYKEL: Yes, that is absolutely blatant.

ZAHN: So what is more subtle than that?

HAYKEL: It could be a word, a certain word they used which would be a cue for followers, or, as I said, a verse of the Quran. It would be very difficult for us to know. In reading the statement, there are a couple of words that are a bit odd, slightly more sophisticated than just ordinary classical Arabic, if classic Arabic could ever be ordinary. But there were a couple words that were a bit odd, and I don't want to mention them, in Arabic, and they could be code words. There is no way to know unless you are on the inside.

ZAHN: So once again, you fully understand, the concern the administration has.

HAYKEL: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm actually quite surprised that they were aired at all, and I'm sure there is a lot of pressure now on Jazeera Television in Quetta to prevent these kinds of statements from coming out.

ZAHN: The administration has been, maybe not in public, quite critical of Al-Jazeera airing in its entirely the previous bin Laden statement and now this al Qaeda statement.

Let's move to what you thought the significance was of the bin Laden tape we all saw over the weekend. No one can really confirm exactly when that was shot. It was a believed it was shot after the September 11 attacks. We are looking at some pictures here. Analyze for us what this communicates to you.

HAYKEL: I think the seating arrangement is extremely important, OK? The man sitting to bin Laden's right, the man on the very left of the screen, is Suleiman Abu-Ghaith. He's a Kuwaiti who is 36 years old. We know a lot about him. And I think he is there to unnerve Kuwait, unnerve Saudi Arabia, and since he is a new face on the scene, to unnerve the West. And obviously, bin Laden is saying he is the most important man in that setting, after bin Laden.

Then the person siting to bin Laden's left would be the second- most important person in the organization; it is the Egyptian Ayman al-Zawahiri.

And then the one second to the left is the second-most important person in organization.

The other thing to notice about this picture is that I think they are all wearing their watches on their right hands, and that tells us that they are very strict followers of the prophets' injunction that right hand is useful hand and the left hand is literally the sinister hand.

ZAHN: Before you go further, I wanted to share with you a close- up picture of this, that ran in one of the newspapers here in New York yesterday. It shows that Osama bin Laden is actually wearing an Ironman Timex wristwatch.

HAYKEL: Bill Clinton used to wear one as well.

ZAHN: Yes, but Bill Clinton was the president of the United States. I mean, come on. What is that all about?

HAYKEL: I don't know if there is any specific significance about...

ZAHN: It is on the right wrist.

HAYKEL: Maybe it's a inside joke. But the fact that it is on his right hand is significant. It is indicative of how strict a follower he is of the prophets' situation and injunctions.

ZAHN: Walk us through the paces of what was communicated in bin Laden's first message, the al Qaeda message, and the degree to which the Islamic faith is being distorted here.

HAYKEL: It is very important to look, for example, at the way bin Laden is seated. He looks very demure, almost saintly. He has his legs folded under him as if he has just finished praying. He looks like he has resigned. He has performed his obligations to God and his duties and that he is resigned to whatever fate has in store for him, including martyrdom. I think there is an element to this whole statement which is like a martyr's testament, there is that side to it in the tone, and the posture, and the way he sits.

And also, the crucial thing in all of this is that it is aimed at Muslims and Arabic-speaking Muslims. It is not aimed at the West or at America at all; the target audience is very clear.

ZAHN: How is that target audience likely to respond to this?

HAYKEL: I think most Muslims don't share these radical views. I mean they obviously don't care about what hand you put your watch, on so on, and hopefully they will see these guys for what are they, which is very radical, very extremist Muslims.

And the challenge is, basically, to prevent or at least to convince Muslims that this not the way to go.

ZAHN: We have heard a number of different interpretations of bin Laden's statement that has been aired. I understand you have a slightly different take on that. How is your interpretation at all different?

HAYKEL: Well, there is a reference to 80 years that comes up again and again in his statement, as well as in yesterday's statement, the spokesman who spoke yesterday. And it is an intriguing kind of number, because it is not necessarily that obvious. I have done some calculations, and we are exactly 80 years in the Islamic calendar away from the abolition of the caliphate in Turkey, in 1924, the last calif. And the calif is the most spiritual and political leader of the Muslim community. He was deposed in 1924. I think that sends a very clear message that bin Laden seeks to create a unified Islamic state and create a new caliphate, maybe with him as the leader, maybe with someone else in mind as the leader. He has a radical political vision.

ZAHN: Is there is any grassroots support for that?

HAYKEL: No, there isn't. I think most Muslims have abandoned the idea of the caliphate, except the radical fringe. ZAHN: So where does this go?

HAYKEL: Well, I think it's a propaganda and a war of symbols, and he is hoping to sway people. But the most powerful argument in all of this is, again, the fact that he is saying that if you don't join me, that if you don't join the jihad, you are going to go to Hell. So the test is whether Muslims will accept that challenge.

ZAHN: Then talk about how the United States and its allies are supposed to deal with what you described as a propaganda war. How does the United States counteract that? Is it enough to drop transistor radios into Afghanistan and tell people this is not a fight against Islam, this is a fight against the terrorists?

HAYKEL: Certainly not. Unless we energize and we activate and we bring on board moderate Muslims, we will never win this war. We will have more and more bin Ladens on our hands, and we will radicalize the entire Muslim world.

ZAHN: Thank you very much for helping us better understand some of the less-obvious signals being sent by both of these tapes. Bernard Haykel, thank you again for joining us this morning.

HAYKEL: Thank you, thank you.

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