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Additional Anthrax Spores Discovered; Stocks End the Day Higher

Aired October 25, 2001 - 18:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: This is MONEYLINE for Thursday, October 25.

JAN HOPKINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening everyone, I'm Jan Hopkins, in for Lou Dobbs.

More fallout from the anthrax attacks against the United States: Additional spores have been discovered, more exposures have been revealed. Tonight a bioterror expert assesses the danger.

We're also joined by Larry Korb of the Council on Foreign Relations. He'll assess the effectiveness of the U.S. bombing attacks against the Taliban.

After September 11, charities asked for more help. Americans gave more than $1 billion. We'll tell you how much of that money has actually been spent.

And the latest on the Osama bin Laden money trail: If terrorists' bank accounts dry up, will -- where will the terrorists get their money?

On Wall Street, stocks ending the day higher, despite concerns about the condition of the economy.

Now for the latest developments in the anthrax attacks: one new confirmed anthrax case today. The State Department says that one of its mail handlers tested positive for inhalation anthrax. In New York City, a second NBC employee is suspected of contracting skin anthrax. The woman is thought to have handled the same anthrax-tainted letter sent to Tom Brokaw. Homeland Security Chief Tom Ridge says anthrax found in New York, Washington, D.C. and Florida are similar.


TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: The DNA tests have also revealed that none of the anthrax samples have been genetically altered, which is very good news, obviously. because it means that the samples all respond to antibiotics.


HOPKINS: Ridge also says that anthrax sent to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle was more dangerous than spores found at other sites.

Meanwhile, the Senate passed an anti-terrorism bill that gives law enforcement officials expanded power to track down terrorists. President Bush is expected to sign that bill into law tomorrow.

Susan Candiotti is joining us now to update the anthrax attacks.

Susan, what more can you tell us about the quality of the anthrax in each of these letters?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jan, during a news conference this day it was announced by Tom Ridge, homeland security director, as well as a top military researcher at Fort Detrick, Maryland, that the spores involved that they've been looking at are all highly concentrated and pure, but that the spores found in a letter received by Senator Tom Daschle are, in fact, standing out because of their quality.

Those are being described, as you indicated, as more dangerous than the others because they are highly concentrated, pure, smaller spores that are more easily absorbed into the lungs. Now, this is compared to the spores found in the letter received at the "New York Post." Those are described as military researchers as courser. In fact, one scientist said they were kind of like the pellets in Purina Dog Chow.

Now -- so all of this is of much concern, and testing goes on at military labs everywhere because at this point the government does not yet know the source of this anthrax. Three countries, primarily, have the capability of producing it. The U.S., the former Soviet Union and Iraq. However, tests are inconclusive at this time as to the source of the anthrax.

HOPKINS: Well, and it would be very difficult to try to figure out the source, wouldn't it, or do each of these countries have particular marks on the anthrax that's produced there?

CANDIOTTI: Well, in part they're looking at whether there were additives involved here -- if there were additives, where did those come from? Additives are important because if they are found, it would mean that someone was trying to make these spores even lighter in air. It would make them more easily dispersible and, again, more easily absorbed into the lungs.

HOPKINS: Now what about postal workers? We have more cases in the postal system and a lot more testing of post offices.

CANDIOTTI: That's correct. It was announced this day, as a matter of fact, that there will be random tests at post offices nationwide, and that, specifically, 200 post offices along the East Coast would also -- there will also be environmental tests there.

And as you know, we have an additional case this day involving a mail room employee of the State Department; someone who works off- site, but did handle letters that would have gone through, in part, that now-quarantined Brentwood postal facility in Washington. HOPKINS: Thanks, Susan Candiotti.

And now for the latest on the war against terrorism: U.S. warplanes have been dropping bombs on the Taliban along the battlefront, and they've experienced retaliatory fire, including what appeared to be at least one missile fired near Bagram, Afghanistan. The Pentagon says it used 80 strike aircraft yesterday against nine planned targets, including buildings, an armored car, and a vehicle that may have been carrying fuel.

In Peshawar, Pakistan, a conference of Afghan community leaders met to draw up plans for a transition government in the event the Taliban is toppled. About 1,500 leaders were present at that meeting.

Sheila MacVicar now joins us from Islamabad with the latest on the war -- Sheila.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jan, news tonight from inside Afghanistan that those U.S.-led airstrikes are continuing. CNN staff and the Taliban stronghold of Kandahar reporting to us just over three hours ago that they heard several large explosions, followed by brilliant flashes coming from the direction of the Kandahar Airport. Now, that's an airfield about a 30-minute drive or so southwest of the city of Kandahar. That's an airport that's also been struck a number of times through this conflict.

Now, that follows on from a day of intensifying strikes, as you said, along the Taliban-Northern Alliance front line near the city of Mazar-e-Sharif. This is the fifth day of those strikes. They are reported to have been intensifying every day.

Now we are also hearing reports tonight of fierce ground combat -- combat between ground forces -- the Taliban and the forces of the Northern Alliance. But as yet, no reports of any territory gains made by the Northern Alliance forces. Earlier today, speaking here in Islamabad, we heard from the Taliban deputy ambassador, who talked about the resistance of Afghans -- the historic resistance of Afghans when under attack.


SOHAIL SHAHEEN, TALIBAN DEPUTY AMBASSADOR TO PAKISTAN: It is the nature of Afghans, when we are under attack, we are united against any invasion.


MACVICAR: Now, we are also hearing from sources like the Saudi ambassador to Pakistan a belief that the Taliban regime, however fears the resistance may be now -- that the days of that regime may be numbered in days or weeks. We're also hearing from people like Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld over the last few days that however much people in this region may wish this conflict to be brought to a swift close, that may not be possible. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld talking about the resistance of the Afghans, talking about their ability to use the terrain that they know so well -- Jan.

HOPKINS: And that's really key at this point -- the resistance; how much fighting back there is.

MACVICAR: Well, at this point, first off, the Taliban know their terrain. They have both terrain and weather on their side. We keep on saying winter is not very many weeks away. So there obviously will be big resupply problems for the Taliban if the war continues at that point. But at this stage it does seem that they are able to hold both their forces together -- you're not seeing -- we are not seeing the kinds of defections that had, perhaps, been expected. We're not seeing defections of the tribal alliances that, in many cases, support the Taliban forces. That hasn't happened yet.

HOPKINS: Thanks, Sheila MacVicar in Islamabad, Pakistan.

America fighting its war on several fronts now: Against the Taliban in Afghanistan, against terrorist money around the world, against anthrax in the United States.

And here to assess the progress of these battles is former assistant secretary of defense under President Ronald Reagan, Larry Korb.

Larry, how would you assess the military progress so far? You heard the latest from Islamabad and other parts.

LAWRENCE KORB, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, The military is destroying the targets that it wants to. it's run out of very high-value targets. As your report pointed out, one of the targets today was just a vehicle. And they're reaching a point of diminishing returns because they're not accomplishing the objective, which is to allow the Northern Alliance to take territory from the Taliban and break the will of the Taliban or their supporters.

HOPKINS: That would indicate that there does need to be more ground action, right?

KORB: Well, at some point you're going to have to put in more ground forces. Air power by itself can never really win the battle decisively, and it's less likely to win when you're dealing with a primitive state like Afghanistan, where there are not just that many targets.

HOPKINS: Now, the president has prepared us for a long military campaign. Do you think, though, the American people are really prepared for a long military campaign?

KORB: Oh, very definitely. I think the American people, given what has happened to the United States, with the terrorist attacks of September 11 plus the subsequent anthrax attacks, they're ready for a long campaign. In fact, if anything they would probably want to be more aggressive than the president has been -- for example, started earlier.

HOPKINS: But the president -- what's your sense? Did he take the time that he needed to prepare?

KORB: No, I think he should have waited a little bit longer to start the military campaign, to get your political house in order. We should have had a coalition government all ready to go. We still haven't gotten that lined up. We should have called a U.N. conference to decide about economic aid so we'd be ready to move in.

The Taliban are not going to surrender, you know, one day and then just move out. When they go, they're going to go gradually. And we should be prepared to move into the northern part right now, because if we can capture Mazar-e-Sharif, we should be able to go in and start providing economic assistance and humanitarian aid..

HOPKINS: Let's talk about the other front, the home front war, the anthrax. How are things going on that front?

KORB: Well, there's been an awful lot of confusion. The administration was not -- did not realize how serious it was, that they didn't have this enhanced, very refined anthrax that went to Senator Daschle that can really be, and has been, deadly.

First they were telling us, don't worry, it's not too bad, go out and have fun. And now they're realizing it's much more serious, and they haven't gotten their act together, mainly because Governor Ridge, the director of homeland security, really doesn't have the authority he needs to take charge. He doesn't have personnel control, he doesn't have budgetary control, and he's got to get 43 federal agencies together, as well as work with state and local government.

HOPKINS: So then what's the solution? Give him more power, or put somebody else in charge?

KORB: No, I think what you do is you need to make that an agency -- a homeland security agency with the power to deal with these things. We've already seen the FBI and the Center for Disease Control not coordinating their activities, the Army doing the testing -- and they're looking for different things than CDC was.

HOPKINS: Now, Susan Candiotti was telling us that anthrax could come from any of three sources: the United States, Russia or Iraq. How important is it to track down where the anthrax came from?

KORB: Well, if you can track down the fact that this was not gotten by some group that had gotten it after it was produced in Russia or the United States, that is did come from Iraq and you have a smoking gun, then you have the legal and moral authority to be able to move against Iraq, and I think you would be able to hold the coalition together. But unless you have that smoking gun, it's going to be very hard to go after Saddam because many members of the coalition are going to think you're trying to settle scores left over from 10 years ago.

HOPKINS: Do you think there's any question that anthrax attacks are terrorist attacks?

KORB: No, I don't think so, given the lethality of some that's used, plus the places it's been. I mean, this is a very well coordinated attack. Look what they've done -- they've basically brought, almost, the postal system to its knees, just as they brought the air traffic system to its knees after the terrorist attack.

HOPKINS: So it's also related to September 11? There's no question in your mind?

KORB: Well, not in my mind. It would be very, very surprising if these two were not related. And I think what -- we have to think about what's going to be the next. Are they going to go after the banking system, for example, so our ATM machines won't work?

HOPKINS: Very interesting, thanks, Lawrence Korb, Council on Foreign Relations and former undersecretary of defense under the Reagan administration.

Terrorists' bank accounts are being frozen around the world. And now they're going underground looking for black market money. That will make it much more difficult to choke off their funding.

Chris Huntington has the story.


CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mohammed Atta and other suspects of the September 11 attacks did little to conceal their financial transactions. They used ATM cards, credit cards, U.S. bank accounts and licensed money transmitters.

SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: There is no doubt whatsoever that al Qaeda and bin Laden were behind these attacks. You can literally follow a money trail that points directly to that organization. We're cracking down on the above-ground systems of banking and moving money. But there's a system of informal money transfer without much in the way of record keeping that would be much harder to follow.

HUNTINGTON: At Bayh's urging, new money laundering legislation aims to crack down on unregistered money transmitters, known as Hawala dealers. Common thought the Middle East, Hawala dealers also operate in the United States, particularly in Indian and Pakistani neighborhoods.

The Hawala system is a virtually recordless way to move money, and is known to be used by terrorists.

PATRICK JOST, FORMER TREASURY DEPARTMENT ANALYST: Since Hawala does not have a paper trail, it lends itself to this type of activity. There certainly is circumstantial evidence, for cultural reasons, that Hawala would have been used for some, if not the majority, of the transactions and transfers.

HUNTINGTON: But Hawala, developed first in India, is just one of several unconventional, or underground money transfer systems. The Pakistanis call it Hundi; the Chinese, Fei Ch'ien, or flying money. Colombian drug lords use the Black Market Peso Exchange. The International Monetary Fund estimates global money laundering to be at about $6 billion per year, but investigators with front-line experience say the underground stream of illegal funds is much bigger, and they are concerned that that money could draw terrorists and other criminals closer together.

JOHN MOYNIHAN, BERG ASSOCIATES: It's just indescribable how much money is out there. This sort of convergence into -- of one organized crime group into another has just a disastrous potential for us in this country right now. It would bring economic powers and capabilities to individuals, by this synergy, much greater than what they presently have at their own disposal.

HUNTINGTON: The U.S. Treasury Department has identified several sources of al Qaeda funding, including honey shops in Yemen, a wealthy investor in Saudi Arabia, several Islamic charities and a Hawala dealer in Pakistan.


HUNTINGTON: Federal law enforcement officials are going after al Qaeda's financing with a new multi-agency task force just revealed today called Operation Green Quest. Now, one of the focuses of Operation Green Quest will be to try the infiltrate and dismantle Hawala networks. But as one veteran prosecutor told me: "Stopping Hawala dealers will be difficult. They speak in code and have a 5,000 year head start" -- Jan.

HOPKINS: So how much have they managed to freeze at this point? Is it significant, or not significant?

HUNTINGTON: Well, it depends who you ask. The figure that the officials are putting out, that U.S. Treasury puts out for global seizure of al Qaeda funds is $24 million. Investigators we've spoken to say that's just scratching the surface.

HOPKINS: That it's much, much larger than that, in terms of the possibility...

HUNTINGTON: That the likely funding that al Qaeda has at its immediate disposal and has access to is much greater than that.

HOPKINS: Chris Huntington, thanks.

Still to come on MONEYLINE: More than $1 billion has been raised to help the victims of the September 11 attacks on the United States. Tonight we'll tell you how much of that money has actually been spent. We'll look at the impact the call-up of National Guard troops is having on small businesses. And what's the best way to fight terrorism? Our next guest is an expert on the subject.

ANNOUNCER: After the break, Jan speaks with Jessica Stern of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HOPKINS: Here to tell us what it will take to battle terrorism is Jessica Stern, she is an author and a terrorism expert from Harvard.

Jessica, welcome.


HOPKINS: Now, I was talking with Larry Korb about the anthrax and whether there was a smoking gun, whether you can really track where it's from, and whether it's connected with terrorism. Do you think that the anthrax attacks are connected to the September 11 attacks?

STERN: Well, I think it's really too early to say. I don't think there's enough evidence. Whether there is a smoking gun, whether the government will eventually be able to identify the perpetrator, I think that's very likely. But I...

HOPKINS: Is likely?

STERN: Extremely likely that they will be able to determine who carried this out, in my view. But it doesn't mean they've done it yet.

HOPKINS: Now you're an expert on terrorism of all kinds, nuclear, biological.

What other things should be we be prepared for besides anthrax?

STERN: Well, unfortunately, it's beginning to look as though whatever group has perpetrated this anthrax attack did have access to fairly sophisticated powder. And this is very troubling news.

We just have to hope that they only have a small quantity and that that's why they've carried out this extremely low-tech attack. You're also, I think, wondering how likely it is that these terrorists will have access to nuclear weapons.

HOPKINS: Yes, that's right.

STERN: I think that that is less likely.

It would be harder to acquire or detonate or certainly build a nuclear weapon.

HOPKINS: Now there's also concern about smallpox, releasing smallpox somewhere in the country and basically having an attack that way.

Is that likely?

STERN: It doesn't strike me as likely in the imminent future.

Smallpox is fairly well protected and there is some concern that it did leak out of the former Soviet Union. But still, the fact that a group is able to acquire the Ames strain of anthrax doesn't suggest to me that we should automatically assume that they could acquire smallpox.

HOPKINS: And there also is some conversations about the food system in our country, and the agriculture department saying that it's, in fact, watching for a lot of ways that their could be attacks on the food system.

Is this something we should be concerned about?

STERN: Yes, I think it probably is.

The government should be concerned about it and food producers should be concerned about it. But individual Americans -- I don't think it makes sense to be worried about this. The onus is on the government to take care of this problem.

HOPKINS: Now you have been to terrorist training camps. You have studied terrorism for a very long time.

We are at war against terrorism at this point. How likely it is that we can wipe out terrorism?

STERN: Unfortunately, I think it's very unlikely that we can completely eradicate terrorism.

It comes out of a genuine grievance. And what these leaders do is they go and find young men who feel alienated and humiliated, especially in regions where the socioeconomic conditions are really bad, where education is really poor.

And these groups are going in and providing services that the government should be providing. What we need to worry about is not whether we can eradicate every single terrorist operative, but whether we are going to win another war, and that is to make sure that bin Laden is not successful in his efforts of turning this into a war between Islam and the West.

HOPKINS: And also to make sure that education and economic conditions in various places around the world are upgraded, right?

STERN: Yes, I mean, in particular in Pakistan. The madrasas have stepped up -- the government is not providing education, free education without fees for books, to poor people. And so they are going to extremist schools. It's almost as if abortion doctor killers were allowed to provide schooling in the United States.

They are providing schools that train people to hate. And unless somebody goes and helps that government of Pakistan build schools that really teach them -- children things they need to function in a modern society, there will be this cesspool, essentially, for recruiting.

HOPKINS: Thanks very much -- Jessica Stern, author and terrorism expert from Harvard.

STERN: Thank you. HOPKINS: And coming up next: Reservists are being called up to help fight America's new war. We'll tell you how that's affecting America's small businesses.

We'll continue our investigation into charities. How much of the money you donated after September 11 has actually been spent. Those reports by Peter Viles have hit a very raw nerve with many of you. The response has been tremendous.

And we'll share some of your e-mails. That's when MONEYLINE continues.


HOPKINS: Three days after the September 11 attacks, President Bush authorized the call up of as many as 50,000 reservists and National Guardsmen. So far, 33,000 of them have been put on active duty. And their tour of duty could last up to two years.

While this can put a strain on corporations, it is the self- employed who face the biggest financial burdens. Susan Lisovicz has the story.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead and swing your feet around.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chiropractor Mark Losack has spent five years building up his practice in southern California. As a Marine reservist, a call to active duty would cut his pay in half.

LT. COL. MARK LOSACK, CHIROPRACTOR: I'll be able to pay my bills and still maintain a little bit of a savings, investing type of program. But again, I just won't be out of debt as quickly as I would have liked to have been.

LISOVICZ: Federal law requires that employers hire reservists back at comparable pay if they are called up into service. Some big companies such as Xerox, United Technologies and Wal-Mart, have recently gone beyond that, closing the gap between military and civilian pay for at least part of the duration.

(on camera): But there is no safety net for reservists who are self-employed. The Small Business Administration does provide a special disaster loan to reservists. But that only covers capital for necessary obligations and does not cover lost income.

JAY SPIEGEL, RESERVE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION: We saw in the aftermath of the Persian Gulf War, many medical practices were destroyed. The bulk of the military medical fore structure is in the reserves.

And when those folks get called up, their patients continue to need medical care and they'll go seek it somewhere else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything looks good here.

LISOVICZ (voice-over): Reservist and ophthalmologist Lawrence Jindra says financial hardship is a second priority. His father was an infantryman who landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day.

DR. LAWRENCE F. JINDRA, OPHTHALMOLOGIST: My father did his part and my grandfather did his part, and it was just something that I thought was the right thing to do.

LISOVICZ: Jindra says some of his competitors have volunteered to work in his office as their own way of sacrifice during this time of need.

Susan Lisovicz, CNN Financial News, New York.


HOPKINS: Interesting.

Coming up next on MONEYLINE, huge explosions rock Kabul. We'll have the latest on America's war against terrorism.

More anthrax spores, more anthrax exposures -- we'll bring you the latest information on the anthrax attacks.

Then, the Red Cross: Right or wrong? Your thoughts on our reports about the way the Red Cross is spending its donated money.

And what are other charities doing with the money that you gave to help families of the victims of the September 11 attacks?

We'll tell you when MONEYLINE continues.


HOPKINS: Now for the latest in the war against terrorism. U.S. war planes intensified strikes against Taliban troops and targets north of Kabul. Planes took on fire, including what appeared to be a surface-to-air missile.

The Pentagon says it used 80 aircraft to strike Taliban targets yesterday, including 65 tactical jets, while also dropping 35,000 rations to Afghan civilians.

On the home front, the State Department says one of its mail handlers has tested positive for inhalation anthrax. That makes a total of eight known inhalation cases nationwide. The Senate passes an anti-terrorism bill. It expands the powers of law enforcement in tracking down terrorists. Attorney General John Ashcroft says he'll make sure the measure is implemented swiftly.


JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The hour that it becomes law, I will issued guidance to each of the 94 United States Attorneys offices and the 56 FBI field offices, directing them to begin immediately implementing this sweeping legislation.


HOPKINS: Also today, another employee of NBC is suspected of contracting skin anthrax. The female worker is thought to have handled the same anthrax-tainted letter sent to anchor Tom Brokaw.

Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson held a late- day conference call. Some of the news was for consumers and some, for corporations.

CNN's medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen listened in on that call and she joins us with the details. Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jan, at the conference call today, Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson had a lot to say to America's pharmaceutical companies. He urged companies that make flu shots to step up production. He wants Americans to get their flu shots as soon as they can. He said that the early stage of anthrax infection looks a lot like the flu. And he said there would be less confusion if people get vaccinated in case of more anthrax attacks.

And the Secretary also mentioned how pharmaceutical companies are offering their help. For example, Johnson & Johnson has offered to donate 100 million pills of its antibiotic Levaquin if the drug's approved by the FDA to be used to treat anthrax infections.

Another company, Bristol Myers Squibb has offered to lend some 20 to 25 of its scientists to Secretary Thompson for whatever he needs them for. Thompson said he's evaluating the need for the extra scientists before he accepts the offer.


HOPKINS: So Elizabeth, we've been talking about the treatments for anthrax, but what about the tests for anthrax?

COHEN: You know, there was another conference call this afternoon. This one with the CDC. And one of its officials was saying, you know what? There is no really good test for anthrax. Of course, they wish that there were. There are these nasal swabs we've been hearing so much about, except those aren't a really good test. They can show up positive, and someone might not have an anthrax infection.

It could turn out negative and someone might actually have an infection. There's also not a very good blood test. And she said unfortunately, she doesn't see any real tests that would be good coming out in the near future -- Jan.

HOPKINS: Well, and part of the problem is also that it takes a while to get the results, right?

COHEN: Well, it takes a while to get the results. And the results of the tests that they have really now are meaningless on a patient-by-patient level. You can't really diagnose someone based on these tests. And you can't make treatment decisions based on these tests.

HOPKINS: Thanks, Elizabeth Cohen in Atlanta. Now we'd like to thank all of you who wrote in with thoughts and experiences about our story on donations to charity in the wake of the terrorists attacks and where all the money is going. The vast majority critical of the Red Cross, but a few jumping to the Red Cross's defense.

Dave Morris says he's a Red Cross volunteer in Dallas and writes, "Are all those people stupid? The Red Cross has been here for emergencies for decades. It wasn't created on September 11. From Virginia, the Red Cross is a general relief organization. When you give, you give to assist the organization in all its relief efforts."

Nicole in New York City says, "To regret getting money to the Red Cross for future preparedness is to grossly underestimate what the future may bring."

Jeff and Vickie Miller remind us the Red Cross is here for every kind of disaster. Donations, they say, "should be considered an effort to support all Americans, no matter what the disaster."

But that's not how most of you who wrote in see it. Jessica in Florida says, "If the Red Cross was so up front about donations, why didn't it make that clear when it solicited donations? Shame on them."

Stefan in New York agrees. "They knew darn well every single donor thought their money was going directly to the victims' families. I wonder how many winks took place after the ambiguous ad aired."

From Ron in New Jersey, "I'm very upset to think my small gift is not being used how I meant it."

And Sandra in Oregon, "If I could get my money back, I would."

Sue in New Jersey says she's going to try. She says that they grossly misrepresented themselves. And she says, "I'm glad I used a charge card because I'm going to dispute the charge and have it removed."

What do you think? Send us an e-mail, We want to include your message. So please, don't forget to include your name and your hometown.

And just ahead, our special report on your money and charity continues, record amounts of money raised. We'll tell you how it's being distributed. And as the efforts to get aid to victims' families goes on, there is another growing group of people in need, the unemployed. A staggering number of workers are losing their jobs. We'll have the latest check of the economy and the markets.


HOPKINS: We continue our special look at the charities that raised money in the wake of September 11 and what's happening with that money. Tonight, we take a broader look at how much was raised and how much or how little has been dispersed. Peter Viles joins us now with this continuing story -- Peter.

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jan, this is a frustrating story in some respects. Frustrating because we still don't know how many people died here in New York City. And therefore, we still don't know how many families need aid.


(voice-over): Six weeks later, and no one knows for certain how many people died in New York. Each day seems to bring less clarity, rather than more. According to the Associated Press, the city now counts 4,339 missing. But that list is not public, officials citing the confidentiality of victims' families. "The New York Times" reports it can count only 2,950 missing or dead. The Red Cross reports it has been able to reach the families of 2,700 victims.

Death certificates won't help. The city has issued only 1,293. And the mayor is bristling at the media's interest in sorting the issue out.

RUDY GIULIANI, MAYOR, NEW YORK: I don't know if we'll ever know exactly what the number is, if the number is some horrible, horrific number. And there's almost something macabre about trying to create a dispute over the number.

VILES: But the numbers do matter to charities trying to find victims' families and coordinate giving to them. The state of New York reports 190 charities are raising money. MONEYLINE surveyed eight of the biggest, found a billion dollars in pledges, of which $631 million has been collected, $153 million handed out, $60 million in direct financial aid to families.

BENNETT WEINER, COO, BBB WISE GIVING ALLIANCE: Americans are very generous, and gave as quickly as they could to assist these efforts. And some, in turn, may expect charities to disburse these funds as quickly. The problem is, that there is enough involved, in terms of volume of money, and a sufficient number of organizations that are numerous, that this creates a coordination challenge.

VILES: To date, the Red Cross reports raising $529 million, disbursing $110 million, $40 million of that in direct financial aid to victims' families. The September 11th Fund, $320 million in contributions, $30 million handed out, $10 million directly to families.

The Salvation Army says it raised $50 million, but says it does not have an accurate count right now of how much it has given away The New York Times 9/11 Fund has raised $41 million and given out $5.4, roughly half of that to victims' families.

There is progress in the effort by the New York Attorney General to create a database of victims' families, their needs, and what they have received, to better coordinate giving. The Red Cross now agreeing in principal to share information on those families that sign a waiver to be included in such a database -- Jan.

HOPKINS: Well, part of it is the amount of money that has been raised and the amount of the task. Coordination does seem like something that's needed at this point, with so many different charities collecting money.

VILES: Yes, and some of these charities tell us they need more information before they can make decisions, not just information about who's out there and who needs money, but what kind of government aid they're going to get, so they can fill in the cracks where the government and the insurance don't provide aid. So some charities say they really do need to wait until this sorts it out a little.

I know that's very frustrating to people who have given money, but that's what some charities are telling us.

HOPKINS: Thanks. Peter Viles.

VILES: Sure.

HOPKINS: A remarkable late day rally on Wall Street. Blue chips coming back from triple-digit losses to post triple-digit gains. Nasdaq and the broader S&P 500 also finishing higher. For details, Christine Romans is at the New York Stock Exchange and Greg Clarkin at the Nasdaq marketsite.

Let's bring in Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jan, by all accounts, the market was besieged by bad news in the early part of the session. And the Dow was down 170 points. A lot of pessimism early.

But once again, this resilient market shook it off, and after 2:00, mounted more of a rally, the Dow closing up 117 points. Jan, this is the best level we've seen since the close of September 10. Only a couple hundred more points and we're going to be back there.

Boeing up nicely here today. A lot of optimism in the Defense sector ahead of a big contract expected to be announced tomorrow to build fighter jets. IBM up nicely. Still the idea that big solid blue-chip names in tech land are where you want to be, heading into next year whenever this recovery's going to happen.

3M up strongly. J.P. Morgan Chase up more than $1.00. All the financials having a very nice turnaround. They have been weak with the rest of the market in the early part of the trading and came back solidly to help close higher. As you know, Citigroup, American Express and J.P. Morgan are all in the Dow. So that helped overall.

For the most part, people were saying there's a feeling on Wall Street you don't want to miss the next move higher, even though there are still some lingering fears about potentially going back and retesting 8,000 in the Dow.

But Jan, since September 21, when that market had that a terrible week, the Dow is up 15 percent. HOPKINS: Wow, very impressive.

ROMANS: Yes, a nice rally.

HOPKINS: Christine Romans. A solid advance for technology issues, the Nasdaq gaining 2.5 percent. Greg Clarkin is standing by at the Nasdaq marketsite with that story -- Greg?

GREG CLARKIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Jan. I tell you, wild swings here on the Nasdaq as well. In the morning, we saw dominated by poor economic news. The afternoon dominated by renewed confidence in the technology sector.

To give you an idea of how dramatic the swings were, take a look at these numbers. In the morning, we saw the Nasdaq down 48 points. In the afternoon, it closed up 43 points. In the morning, chip stocks down 4.2 percent. They closed higher by 5.2 percent.

Microsoft, in the first part of the day, was trading at 59.59. It closes at 62.56, an almost $3.00 bounce for Microsoft.

Here's some of the other movers on the day. We saw shares of most major sectors posting nice gains. Let's take a look at Cisco Systems. The networkers bouncing back strongly. Cisco, which has some -- which was the subject of some kind things out of Morgan Stanley, they raised their price target to $20 a share. That stock bounced.

Juniper Networks, though, down 63 cents. CSFB, Credit Suisse First Boston, downgrading. They say it's simply too expensive at this point. And then Oracle shares, Salomon Smith Barney downgrading that stock on competitive pressures among other things. That stock selling off by 71 cents.

So again, the afternoon, we saw a strong, strong rally for the Nasdaq, for the technology sector. And at this point, the composite has gained better than 23 percent since the low hit on September 21st. And Jan, as one money manager put it, nothing attracts more money like higher stock prices -- Jan.

HOPKINS: That's right. And technology has totally led this rally. Greg Clarkin at the Nasdaq.

A triple dose of bad news today on the economy, which the market basically ignored. The terrorist attacks knocking an already struggling economy to its knees.

Kathleen Hays is here with the latest numbers. And what they tell us about what's going now and I guess more important, where are we going?

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Because that's certainly a big question, isn't it? And for manufacturing, a key sector, one people have been saying for some time is in recession, one reason why we watch new orders for durable goods so closely. Again, big ticket items. This tells us what the manufacturing sector may be doing. Down 8.5 percent in September, the lowest level of orders since '96. The first time since we've seen four straight months of decline since 1992.

Now granted, some of this had to be the impact of the attacks. But look at the extent of this. Telecoms down nearly 40 percent. We had aircraft down some 29 percent. Computers and electronics down 9 percent. It's the extent of this decline, autos and auto parts as well, 15 percent loss, that has economists so worried now about what's going on in the U.S.


DAVID ORR, WACHOVIA SECURITIES: The breadth was pretty startling. All seven major sectors declined. And in the third quarter, shipments of durable goods orders down at a 29 percent annual rate, which is even higher than the decline or worse that the decline in the third quarter. So it very much guarantees these negative GDP number we've all been looking for.


HAYS: And of course, some of the industries hit so hard, some of the sectors, are also seeing layoffs. Look at the jobless claim figure, up 8,000 to 504,000. Continuing claims, the number of people who remain unemployed now at an 18-year high. Again, just one more sign economists say that this economy is probably in recession.

Against this backdrop, losing your job, worried about hanging onto your job, did you go out and buy a new home in September or an existing home? Well, in fact, a lot of people didn't. In September, existing home sales down 11.7 percent.

And what's interesting about this, Jan, existing home sales tracked closings. They don't track when people are going to contract. People who were going to contract actually a month or two before that number. So that's when where it's hard to say that's really the impact of the attacks.

Now we came off a very strong month. People say it's too soon to say the bubble has really burst. But again, with so many -- so much bad news on employment front, they're wondering if maybe that we're going to see a bit of a pullback here as well.

HOPKINS: Interesting, although Wall Street seems to be thinking that we're going to get through this pretty soon, Kathleen Hays. We'll see.

HAYS: We hope so, yes.

HOPKINS: We'll keep watching.

Coming up next, good software, bad timing, Microsoft debuts its long awaited Windows XP operating system. And thousands line up in New York hoping to land a job. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Microsoft today launching Windows XP, its most important product since Windows 95. So far, it appears the company has a strong product, and a case of very bad timing. Experts say that Microsoft, as well as makers of computers and software that will tie into the Windows XP may have a long wait for a revenue boost.

Steve Young has that story.


STEVE YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Microsoft had planned a lavish outdoor celebration, but because of the World Trade terrorist attack, its Windows XP launch started with a somber tone. Analysts say it's the most crash-proof operating system for consumers the company has ever produced, easiest to use and crammed with the most features. But with a new kind of war raging and a recession looming, they think it will take quite a while before XP can give a needed lift to software or PC companies.

ROB ENDERLE, GIGA INFORMATION GROUP: As far as being able to really drive the market, it doesn't look like it's going to be able to do that, unless the economy comes back around or unless some dramatic changes, of course, occur with regard to the war in Afghanistan.

YOUNG: To make light of the tough challenge he faces, Bill Gates called on the only one on the stage with a tie.

REGIS PHILBIN: Who wants to be a millionaire? Bill Gates does.


You think it'd be worth your time?

YOUNG: Some other companies, including AOL Time Warner, parent of this network, complained that Gates folded in streaming media, instant messaging and other features in the operating system to use his monopoly clout against competitors. But in an interview with CNN, Gates made no apologies.

BILL GATES, CHAIRMAN, MICROSOFT: We're creating a platform that not only has what we call new experiences built in, but also creates opportunity for third parties. And so definitely, you know, this is a key element of the technology.

YOUNG: Microsoft is still trying to settle serious antitrust violations with the government in 18 states. If it can't, a district court judge could order changes in Bill Gates' brand new baby, including copies already out the door.

CLIFFORD ARQUIT, PARTNER, CLIFFORD CHANCE: XP has a feature in it called automatic update where Microsoft is able to automatically make changes in the product.

(END VIDEOTAPE) YOUNG: Even if the court doesn't snarl, Microsoft's strategic plans, some analysts say they expect XP to win wide success only after the next version. That's due in 2003.

HOPKINS: That's interesting. So it's not likely that this is going to ramp up sales of personal computers? A lot of people have been waiting for the launch.

YOUNG: Everybody's hoping for that, but it's not likely to happen is the general belief.

HOPKINS: Steve Young, thanks.

"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" begins in a few minutes. And for a preview, let's go to Wolf in Washington. Wolf?

WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS": Thank you very much, Jan. More inhalation anthrax here in the U.S. capitol. The latest victim, the State Department. Also, after anthrax, where are the next threats? I'll ask someone who knows, the former chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, San Nunn. Plus, we'll get all the latest developments from our correspondents around the world. That's all coming up next -- Jan.

HOPKINS: Thanks, Wolf.

And coming up next on MONEYLINE, a look at tomorrow. Thousands of people line up to get into the Twin Towers job fair. Those stories when MONEYLINE continues.


HOPKINS: Tomorrow, quarterly results are expected from UnitedHealthcare, Lockheed Martin and Duane Reade. Reports on the economy include new home sales for September and the revised University of Michigan Consumer Sentiment Report for October. Fed chairman Alan Greenspan speaks on the importance of financial education and literacy tomorrow morning in Washington.

In corporate news, the September 11 attacks weighing heavily on the travel business. Profits at Starwood Hotels falling more than 70 percent last quarter, as travel dropped sharply. The operator of the Sheraton and Westin chains, expects revenue to decline even more this quarter.

Despite better-than-expected third-quarter profits, Goodrich is slashing jobs. The industrial products maker will cut 2400 jobs. That's 10 percent of its work force. Goodrich also closing 16 plants to guard against future losses in the struggling commercial aviation market.

As the number of unemployed grows, Madison Square Garden hosted a job fair called "the Twin Towers Job Expo" for the second time in as many weeks. At least 2,000 people attended the job fair, designed for those who lost their jobs due to the attacks on the World Trade Center. That's MONEYLINE for this Thursday evening. Thanks for joining us. I'm Jan Hopkins in for Lou Dobbs. Good night from New York. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" begins right now.




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