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CNN Talkback Live

America Speaks Out: Should U.S. Alter Immigration Policies?

Aired October 25, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Who's coming to America?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But if they're here illegally, or they're here on a visa, they're here temporarily, we have a right to make sure they are not enemies of this country, and they don't wish us harm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Racial profiling and ID cards. Should the U.S. be more aggressive in tracking temporary visitors?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's sort of equating the United States with terrorists, which is unfortunate, because, you know, most of us aren't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Also, Halloween fright. Are costumes like this too scary? Or too offensive?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I personally wouldn't find it in good humor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have any problem with it. I mean, if that's what they want to do, it's -- that's why we're a free country. We can do those types of things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out."

Are people on temporary visas too free to move around the United States? Since the September 11 attacks, a lot of lawmakers are ready to hang new restrictions on non-residents. There's even talk of making them carry ID cards and limiting immigration.

Here to talk about this today, Dale Schwartz, an immigration attorney and former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. And Rick Oltman, western regional field director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

Gentlemen, before we start, let me quote something from Jake Tapper's column from Salon.com.

"This was a breakdown of the alleged terrorists from September 11, and it revealed the following. Two of them could have been denied entry to this country because of prior visa violations. Six should have been denied entry because they were apparently using false names. Three should have been tracked down before September 11 for staying longer than their visas allowed. Two should have been tracked down for getting student visas and not showing up for class. Two should have been tracked down for suddenly appearing on an FBI watch list."

Now, there is some overlap there, but this basically involves 12 out of the 19 terrorists. It also certainly shows that our immigration system is failing miserably, Dale. Why is that?

DALE SCHWARTZ, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: I think it's primarily because of a lack of funding. We already have the rules and the statutes and the regulations in effect, to track all of the foreign students who come into the United States. But in the past, universities have not been very cooperative with the immigration service, at least not as much as INS would have wanted them to be.

For example, if a student changes majors -- let's say, take a student from Libya, who comes here to study English literature, and next month changes to nuclear physics. That's something that I think the INS wants to know about. And they weren't being given that information. Or if the student dropped out of school, INS wasn't being told that. There are laws that require it, but they haven't been getting the information.

BATTISTA: How do you get into this country when you have prior visa violations? Doesn't that red-flag on a computer somewhere, or...

SCHWARTZ: That should have been discovered by the consulates abroad, prior to the time those visas were given, Bobbie. This is not a good track record.

BATTISTA: So what you're saying is that we have laws in place that are just not being enforced.

SCHWARTZ: That's correct.

BATTISTA: Do you agree with that, Rick, or do you think we need new laws, new restrictions?

RICK OLTMAN, FAIR: Certainly, we haven't been enforcing the laws that we have on the books. In the case of Mohammed Atta, who was one of those who should have been spotted at Miami Airport and turned back because of a visa violation, because he was entering. He told the inspecting officer that he was coming in as a student, yet he was coming in on a tourist visa.

"The Miami Herald" ran a story that said the reason that he wasn't turned back was because the tourism industry doesn't want people coming into Miami being slowed down in the inspection process. So it's just one more example of one more industry who is -- their profits are based on the high flow of immigrants, and they are lobbying the government not to enforce the laws that we have on the books.

Now, there's other things that we need to do. We need to reduce the number of immigrants, reduce the number of students that come into the country so that we can track them. But yes, right now the system isn't just broken. It's in rubble. It's a dust cloud, in terms of what we are finding out about the people that are sneaking into the country. And some, unfortunately, are fanatic mass murderers who want to kill us.

BATTISTA: So we can't draw the conclusion that if these terrorists had been caught on these visa violations, that it would have prevented what happened on September 11?

SCHWARTZ: Of course not. They would have found another way to get into the country.

BATTISTA: Well, that's what I was going to ask. You can get into this country pretty easily, illegally or legally.

SCHWARTZ: That's correct.

OLTMAN: Well, the whole system is in a shambles. And, yes, everybody is very cautious to say that we're not absolutely sure that had this law actually been enforced, we could have prevented this. On the other hand, we know how good our law enforcement is. We know how they can take a single shred of evidence and roll up criminal conspiracies or terrorist conspiracies.

But the fact is, the system was completely broken down in this situation. And yes, they might have found another way in, but what's very clear is, is that we made it easy for this group to come in and to do terror on us.

BATTISTA: Let me get some reaction. Bill is on the phone from California. Bill, go ahead.

CALLER: OK, we should stop all immigration into this country for the next three years. Anybody who has a temporary visa and it runs out, they should go back to where they came from. And we should correct the situation. You just said that anybody can get in here if they want to get in here. Well, we better correct that.

BATTISTA: So you're saying close the borders.

CALLER: Exactly, for a period of three years, to assimilate those people that we have brought into the country. Then determine whether or not we want to have a more open immigration policy. But we first should digest the immigrants we have here.

I hear this -- about 3.5 million Spanish Mexicans. Then I hear that there's 16 million of their families that they'll want to bring in if you legalize. So you're talking 18 million, not 3 million. SCHWARTZ: Bobbie, these are false solutions to real problems. We need to isolate terrorists, not America and Americans. That would just isolate us from the rest of the world, and I think it's ridiculous.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: I was going to say, Reese in the audience disagrees with the caller.

REESE: ... is a leader in the free world, and if we put up barbed wires around America, those kinds of barbed wires are going to go in two directions. And we need to maintain the freedoms that have always been paramount here.

OLTMAN: We're not talking about putting up barbed wires, Bobbie. But what we are talking about are taking just the most rudimentary steps to protect America and Americans from people who want to come here and harm us. Every country in the world guards their borders except, seemingly, this one.

Every country in the world has the ability to check the people in and out of their country, except, seemingly, this one. Now, we don't need to have a complete moratorium. We can reduce legal immigration to about 270,000 per year, that's about replacement level. And we can enforce the laws that we have on the books.

But it's the extremists that say that we can't do anything. There is an awful lot that we can do, and should do. And the attack on September 11 has clearly shown us that we must do something.

BATTISTA: I think what's unsettling to people, Dale, is that -- we've shown it's pretty easy to get in this country -- once you get in this country, nobody does keep track of where you are, and nobody keeps track of when you leave or if you leave when you're supposed to leave.

So...

SCHWARTZ: In a free society, Bobbie, it's really hard to keep track of people without trampling all over the rights of those of us who are genuinely U.S. citizens. I mean, do you want to have an identity card and be asked three times a day to prove who you are when you're walking down the street or checking into a hotel, or -- like communist countries did in the past?

We don't want to do that. Americans just -- almost uniformly reject having that. Now, perhaps a better driver's license or a more secure Social Security card or something like that could go a long way to help the system.

We don't do a very good job of matching up people that come into the country and people that leave the country. There are now more sophisticated computer systems that INS has, and they're doing a much better job of that, but it's not perfect yet. OLTMAN: This is just a scare tactic. We're not trampling on anybody's rights. If you take the case of foreign students that come here, of which there are almost 600,000 foreign students right now, they fill out a form before they get here called the I-20. This is a copy of it.

And in the form, both the educational institution and the student agree that they will provide tracking information to the INS. So this is an agreement that they sign before they get here. We're not trampling on people's rights. We've simply asked them to do certain things as they are guests in our country.

So that's certainly not a civil rights violation, but it's not being enforced. And that's part of the problem, and that's what FAIR is calling for, is that we implement a database immediately, that we begin tracking these students that are in the country. And additionally, that we do background checks in their nation of origin, just to make sure that we're not allowing some potential terrorist in on a student visa.

That seems reasonable. The law is in place to do that now. And we can do it without trampling on civil rights, simply as a matter of your contractual obligation and what you've agreed to when you've agreed to come and be a guest in our country.

BATTISTA: I want to come back to that tracking remark. But let me go to Rubin in the audience, who is from the former Soviet Union.

RUBIN: Yes, I am from Former Soviet Union, and now I am an American. And I would like just to make a quick comment for gentlemen who was on the phone. If we isolate America, which Soviet Union did in its time, and where is Soviet Union now? So we are pretty much going to fail exactly in the same way.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: Nasser in the audience, you are a student here in this country? Where are you from?

NASSER: I'm from Egypt.

BATTISTA: And your thoughts about this?

NASSER: Well, if the 17,000 international students allow me to present them in this thought, I would believe that no one out of the 17,000 students would be happy with what happened in September the 11th. We all condemn this. On the other hand, these six students, out of the 17,000 students, aren't representing a measure look of these students.

So what I believe is that a close monitoring to the students is -- will be in order of that, but not denying them the chance to come here and to learn, and to get their higher education.

BATTISTA: Let me ask you how would you feel about -- now, you all have visas and passports. We have a group here of students from other countries, going to school here in Atlanta. You all are technically required to carry visas and passports with you at all times, but you admitted that you don't do that.

How would you feel about ID cards and being monitored for your activities and your movements, and that kind of thing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have university ID cards and we can -- most of the students, they carry a driver's license. Usually whenever we go out, they ask for valid ID. They check our driver's license. I guess that's sufficient.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While issuing the driver's license, they check our passport and visa. So the issuing authority doesn't issue the license without checking the visa and the passport status. So checking the driver's license is like checking the status of you the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you need to show the Social Security card while getting the driver's license. So they check our passport and Social Security card and student ID from the university. So I guess the driver's license is a valid ID for the students.

BATTISTA: So, Rick, are you advocating that there should be further monitoring than that on students in this country, in terms of their activities, or the movements, or who they're associating with? I mean, when you start getting into that, is that a bit draconian?

OLTMAN: Well, it's already part of the agreement that they've made. For instance, if they fall below full-time status, they are required -- the school is required to report that to INS. Should they move, the schools are required to report that to INS. And I would suppose the question that I would like to ask the students that you have there in the audience, is that -- do you disagree with the agreements that you made when you filled out the I-20, along with your institution, to provide information?

If you don't like that, even though you signed the form saying that you agreed to do that, where does that leave us? With 17,000 or 600,000 foreign students in this country who simply signed the form agreeing to provide the tracking information, yet intending to not provide it once they get here? I'd like to know what your students' response is to that.

BATTISTA: We'll find that out after we take a break. I'm pushing it here, so we'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alfredo Verallas (ph), Stonybrook University. Many of our international students come from places where bad things happen every day, but those countries haven't closed their borders or stopped the international exchange of ideas. If Americans allow fear to stop them from living and playing an active role in the world, then the terrorists have already won. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: And a couple of e-mails here. L. Jensen in Ohio says, " I definitely agree that all student visas should be on hold for six months until we figure out who is in this country already on visas and where exactly they are and what they are doing. At all costs, the citizens of this country should have first rights and protection."

Dr. Jones in Baltimore says, "Keeping a closer eye on student visas is all well and good, until it unfairly impacts the rights of any visiting student in his equal right to receive an education. Keep a closer eye but infringe on no-one's rights."

All right. Jamel in the audience, you wanted to answer Rick. He put out the proposal of whether or not folks here on student visas would subject themselves to further restrictions or perhaps even sign a statement saying...

OLTMAN: The restrictions and reporting requirements that they agreed to before they came here as students when they filled out the I 20 with their institution. Do they feel that it is right that they be required to comply with that, or did they just sign the agreement to get here and then they intend to violate it and not provide the tracking information as they agreed to?

BATTISTA: But Jamel, you say that you -- there is -- there is many things that you would probably agree to, up to a point.

JAMEL: I'm -- first of all, Jamel Sad (ph). I am Palestinian, Arab and Muslim, so I have this very nice triangle that makes me a little bit different. But I am just telling you that I am just a normal person as you all are. I came to the United States three years ago to have my Ph.D in chemistry. This is my fourth year.

I lived in a situation where I didn't live the freedom that Americans do have here in the United states. I tasted the freedom and I would say the real way it is. I do believe that the American authority -- or the authorities in the United States, either INS or the intelligence, do have the right to a certain degree to follow what other students are doing, what all international students are doing in the United States to a certain degree that will not affect the privacy and the freedom that they live here.

This is the country of freedom, freedom of speech. If I say something this does not make me a terrorist or I have any terrorism connection with any group in the...

BATTISTA: But you are saying you are willing to investigated if you do?

JAMEL: I would be willing not be investigated to invade my freedom. I live here.

BATTISTA: Hold on. Let me bring Dale back in here. People who are here on student visas or work visas, whatever, they feel like they, I think, have the same rights to some degree as American citizens.

SCHWARTZ: And in most cases, Bobbie, in most instances, they do. But they have signed an agreement, a contract, if you would, with the government when they were issued their student visas that they would at least come here, go to school, provide their addresses and take a full course of study and pass courses and things like that. And I don't think it is unreasonable for us to require them to live up to what they have agreed to do as part of their obtaining a visa to come to the United States. I don't think that's invading their privacy any more that would reasonably be expected.

BATTISTA: It sounds to me like Rick, that you and Dale pretty much agree on the student visa situation. I think where you part ways is in restricting immigration overall in this country.

OLTMAN: Yes. I think you are going to be hard pressed find any pro-mass immigration advocate arguing what is clearly in the law subsequent to the September 11 attack. But there are other considerations. For instance, we believe Senator Feinstein was absolutely correct when she called for six-month moratorium to get a handle on this situation.

BATTISTA: She did back off that statement, in all fairness to her.

OLTMAN: She did. She did back off it, and it because of statements like this that I just found at random during a search on the Internet. This comes from ESL Focus, which is highly critical of Senator Feinstein. And it said this would be devastating to ESL schools in the United States.

The responses have all been pretty much, this is about money. This is about the education industry wanting us to not enforce the laws, not be careful about who we let in, not do background checks, in the same way the tourism industry did not want comprehensive screening like at Miami International where Mohammed Atta got in.

Like other industries around the country that have come to depend on cheap labor that do not want employer sanctions in force. I mean, have we come to the point now where American colleges and universities have become as addicted to foreign students as industry has been to cheap labor? This is an incredible...

SCHWARTZ: It's not a matter of addiction, though, Bobbie, at all. Because first of all, the foreign students add a tremendous breathe of diversity. I want my children to go to a university that has students from all over the world, as the representative from Georgia Teach so eloquently said a few moments ago.

The other side of the coin is that the universities to some extent depend on the -- on the tuition and monies that are brought to the United States. It was estimated that in California alone -- and maybe this is why Senator Feinstein backed off here position -- that a billion and a half dollars a year are brought into the state of California by the foreign students attending the universities there. But aside from the money, they add to a tremendous amount of cultural diversity. And the other side of the coin is that for many, many years we have allowed as many as a half million foreign students a year to come get educated in the United States. They go home to their countries all over the world, and they are perhaps the best roving ambassadors that we could possibly have. We have treated them nicely. They enjoyed their stay here. They support -- by and large -- America.

BATTISTA: Then maybe we need more students from Afghanistan under that theory. Harvey in the audience. Go ahead.

HARVEY: I would argue that the two most compelling reasons for having international students in the United States is one, to help the United States maintain its global leadership position in science and technology. Most of the research institutions in the United States have very large international student populations. And in fact we are actually being emulated by countries like Australia and Canada and the United Kingdom that are very much involved in recruiting international students. So we are looking at stiff competition from them.

The other factor is that this helps to promote cross-cultural understanding. And Senator Fulbright understand that in 1947, when the Fulbright Scholar program was established, which has allowed 80,000 Americans to study overseas, to teach and to lecture. And it has also brought about 120,000 international people to the United States to engage in teaching and research and lecturing.

BATTISTA: In the time that we have left, here, Rick, tell me -- Rick and Dale both -- what is one change that you think we will see in immigration laws in the weeks or months to come here?

OLTMAN: Well, cross-cultural understanding and diversity are all fine terms prior to September 11. What we need to do is to concentrate on the security of the United States. Certainly we do have a number of foreign students in the country working on research projects. The fact is, there is no shortage of people that want to come here.

And anybody that the United States wants to allow in, we came. But we let them in under conditions. We let them in under certain conditions and what we need to do is to immediately employ the student database, make sure that the colleges are reporting the status to the ins and that we do background checks in the country of origin for these students so that we are not unwittingly allowing in terrorists, which we did. Six of the 19 terrorists came in on a student visa of one sort or another.

BATTISTA: Well...

OLTMAN: Now, you can talk about rights and you can talk about diversity, but we are talking about security and enforcing the laws that we having and doing it in a common sense and fair way, but doing it.

BATTISTA: Dale? SCHWARTZ: I believe that the key change that you are going to see in the future is more background checks. Better intelligence before visas. Not just student visas, but any kind of visas are issued to people all over the world. It is easier to check on somebody's background before you let them into the country...

OLTMAN: Right.

SCHWARTZ: ...than it is to find them once they've gotten here.

OLTMAN: And it would be easier if we had fewer visas as well.

BATTISTA: All right. Final word, there, gentlemen. Thank you both so much. Dale Schwartz, Rick Oltman. Thank you very much. And we'll be back to continue in here in just a moment. Stay with us.

Still ahead on TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out":

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you dress me up like Osama Bin Laden? I said, well, I have got a lot of Arab costumes. And basically it's just an Arab costume with a long beard or a military jacket. And yeah, I can make you look like him. And he said, "Do you think somebody will beat me up?" I said, "I don't know. It's very possible." He said, "I will be right down."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Is this costume all in fun, out of line or outright offensive? A politically correct Halloween next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: OK. With Halloween just a week away, costume stores are stocked with masks and robes designed to mock Osama Bin Laden. Bad taste? Politically incorrect, or the perfect face of fright this season? Our viewer vote is on this topic so don't forget to weigh in on that.

We are joined by Steve Malzberg, a radio talk show host on WABC and columnist at newsmax.com. Also Bernie Ward, host of the "Bernie Ward Show" on KGO NewsTalk AM 810 in San Francisco. And on the phone with us is Paul Blum. Paul is the owner of the Abracadabra Costume Shop in New York City. Good to see all of you.

Let me start with our radio talk show host. Who would want to do this? We always know there are some people who are going to want to dress up as Osama Bin Laden. But to me they taking their life in their hands.

STEVE MALZBERG, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: It's an outrage, Bobbie. First of all, I don't know what store would want to put it in the window or brag about the fact that they have this available. We are at war with this man. This man killed 6,000 people -- civilians -- just blocks from where I am sitting who were just going to work that day. We forget about that in this country, and I think we need to be reminded of it every single day to make him the brunt of a joke or to wear his mask for whatever reason is an outrage. Would somebody have done it with Hitler's face during Halloween during World War II? I mean, he's the same thing. He is worse, because he killed Americans here on our soil and he is going to do it again. And to glorify him in any way whatsoever is an outrage.

BERNIE WARD, "THE BERNIE WARD SHOW": It's not an outrage at all. In fact, exactly what Steve said occurred during World War II, and that is that they made fun of the Japanese. People wore oversized teeth. We made cartoons about them. People went and wore costumes about it, etcetera.

If somebody wants to wear this as a way of making fun of Osama Bin Laden, if a couple wants to go to a party as George W. Bush and Osama Bin Laden and the idea is to make fun of Bin Laden, the idea is to take the terror out of him and to satirize him, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Paul on the phone. Paul, you are selling Osama Bin Laden masks up there in New York. Have you sold a lot?

PAUL BLUM, ABRACADABRA COSTUME SHOP: No, I haven't sold that many. Actually I sold one.

BATTISTA: OK. And...

BLUM: But they are for sale.

BATTISTA: Now, we understand that part of the reason for that is that you interview people who come in to buy the mask, correct?

BLUM: That is true.

BATTISTA: And you won't sell it to them if you, you know, what? Think they are going to give it to their child or...

BLUM: Yeah, if I don't think they have good intentions with it, you know, where they are going to kick it around like a football or put it in an electric chair or run it over with wheelchair or anything like that.

BATTISTA: So...

BLUM: We had a guy come in the store. He wanted it for his kid to wear. I said no, forget about it. I didn't like his vibe, so I said no way. And then I had another guy...

BATTISTA: Who would you sell -- who did you sell the one to?

BLUM: Actually I sold it to a Russian -- Russian TV, and they want to show it in Russia. So I said all right. That's good for the post-Cold-War, you know, conditions. You know? BATTISTA: Well.

BLUM: Good politics.

BATTISTA: If you have a problem, though, with the way people might want to use this mask, why are you selling it at all?

BLUM: You want to know the truth?

BATTISTA: Yeah.

BLUM: The media has been calling me for the mask. So I am helping the media out.

MALZBERG: Now, you know...

BLUM: I got more calls from the media than anybody else.

MALZBERG: Bobbie, the most popular mask in New York City -- and maybe this gentleman could confirm it -- I believe is Rudy Giuliani

BLUM: That's true.

MALZBERG: Followed closely by firemen and policemen.

BLUM: And George Bush is popular as well.

MALZBERG: And George Bush. But Osama -- there is nothing funny Osama Bin Laden.

BLUM: People are not buying Osama. There's not too many who want it. But the people who do...

MALZBERG: Well, you could sell it to my counterpart in San Francisco. He apparently would like it.

BLUM: The people who do want it, want to wear it...

WARD: Steve.

BLUM: ...I don't like those kind of people and I'm not going to sell it to them.

BATTISTA: All right.

WARD: The thing is, Malzberg has always got something up his rear end about this stuff. Everything he's got to have has got to be on the edge. This is Halloween. If people want to make fun of Osama Bin Laden...

MALZBERG: We are at war, Bernie. We're at war.

WARD: Oh, yeah, when did they declare war? I'm sorry.

MALZBERG: Oh, you don't like -- you don't think we are at war. WARD: Listen...

MALZBERG: You are really sick.

BATTISTA: You know what? We didn't talk about this...

WARD: Take it out of your rear end for a second and...

MALZBERG: Oh, stop with the rear end.

BATTISTA: OK, we didn't -- you know, we didn't talk about this before...

WARD: It's something that's easy to do.

BATTISTA: This didn't come up...

WARD: You get so uptight about it it's crazy.

BATTISTA: This didn't come up -- you guys, you guys. This didn't come up, you know, eight years ago, but I remember a lot of people dressed up as Saddam Hussein in the October leading up to the Gulf War. I do realize it's not quite the same thing, but we do seem to have a history of taking the worst possible person and images and then...

WARD: Guys like Malzberg want to just tell people what to wear and how they can wear it. He loves the position he is in the moment, and he wants to try and tell people how they can look at these things or not. If somebody wants to make fun of Osama Bin Laden, make -- let them make fun of Osama Bin Laden.

How are we hurt by that, or helped by it? If you demonize him, if you demystify him and make him just a pathetic caricature, you have accomplished something in the process.

MALZBERG: No. You know, there are 15000 kids in the New Jersey- New York tri-state area with Connecticut that lost a parent in the World Trade Center. Do you think those kids want to see somebody with Osama Bin Laden's face? Do you think you are going to make him into a joke for those kids? It is a disgrace and nothing less than a disgrace.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Holly in the audience. Go ahead, Holly.

HOLLY: Well, I wouldn't actually wear a Osama Bin Laden mask costume, but I support people's First Amendment right to be vulgar or tasteless. If a kid shows up at my door with that costume on, they are still getting candy from me.

WARD: Steve doesn't believe in the First Amendment, so it's OK.

MALZBERG: That's not true, obviously.

WARD: Of course it is. BATTISTA: All right. E-mail here. Jim in Arizona says: "We have costumes of Hitler, Manson, the devil and all other evil people. Why not Bin Laden? He is the most evil of them all." Karen in Missouri says: I don't think there's anything funny about Bin Laden. I find him totally repulsive. I think it is treasonous to produce, sell or rent these costumes or dress up like him. Some people revel in the fact that they have no taste."

WARD: That's absolutely correct. They do. And there are people that will walk into a party wearing a Hitler costume and the party will have a lot of Jews in it, maybe even Jews who lost people in the Holocaust. According to Malzberg, that is horrendous thing to do and you shouldn't do it.

The fact of the matter is that if you want to make fun of somebody, Halloween is the perfect time to make fun of somebody. And if you want to be vulgar and tasteless, there are going to be people who want to do it for the shock value of doing it. And once again, that is also what Halloween is all about.

MALZBERG: But I think we have the answer to this. This is really almost a non-story in that Abracadabra has sold one mask. One mask in New York City.

BATTISTA: That's true. Well, Bernie is going to go dressed as Steve Malzberg, I think.

WARD: I have got to find a broom handle that's long enough.

BATTISTA: You think he's so evil. All right. To the audience and Linda. Is it Linda or...

CHRIS: This is Lynn.

BATTISTA: No, Lynn.

CHRIS: Lynn. Go ahead, Lynn.

LYNN: Well, I totally disagree with Holly. That is not vulgar or tasteless. It's totally demeaning the tragedy that he wreaked on all these people's lives. You say that you are demonizing him. You are not. You are glorifying him, because they are wearing it in the same attitude that -- just the whole attitude that you wearing Rudy Giuliani and the fire department. How are you differentiating? You are glorifying Osama Bin Laden and his actions by allowing the costume to be sold.

WARD: We are not wearing devil costumes to make -- that means to say that we like the devil. I mean, if you want, there are some great fundamentalist Christians out there who would claims that the devil has killed more people than anybody has.

LYNN: He didn't kill 6,000 people.

WARD: There are plenty of children who wear...

LYNN: He did not kill 6,000 people nor bring down our economy.

WARD: What is a child saying when he wears a devil's costume, that he likes Satan? Is that it? Is that just a Satan popularity contest, when a kid puts a devil mask on?

LYNN: But you know what? Satan did not go out and kill 6,000 people.

WARD: Sure he did. He caused it to happen. He's the big tempter. He's the great...

MALZBERG: Bernie, Bernie, the kids see Satan as symbol, with the devil's pitchfork...

WARD: Of what?

MALZBERG: Of Halloween.

WARD: Which is...

MALZBERG: It's a symbol of Halloween. It's a pagan holiday and they are saying they like Halloween.

WARD: Are they saying they like the devil? They're in favor of the devil? They want the devil?

MALZBERG: They are kids. They don't know what they are saying. They're kids, Bernie.

WARD: And what about adults who wear those costumes?

BATTISTA: We have got a couple of guys in the audience who say they would wear Osama Bin Laden costumes. Jonathan, go ahead.

JONATHAN: I think it is healthy to have a good humor about something, even though it is serious. And also I disagree with what she said. Because it's not -- we are not respecting him. If you think we are then we're not. We are demeaning him more by making fun of him. So you make fun of someone, that means you dislike him and you're showing it. But I don't see how -- we -- how if anyone does that they're respecting him or making him greater than he is.

BATTISTA: Let me look at the poll here quickly, the poll question. The poll question was -- what was it again here? It was: dressing as Osama Bin Laden for Halloween is: 19 percent are saying all in good fun, 81 percent saying totally out of line. Leslie in New York says, "The only Osama Bin Laden costume that I would agree to is one having him dressed in drag." I'm not sure where Leslie is coming from on that one. But we'll let that be the last word.

WARD: He might look good in pumps. You never know.

BATTISTA: Steve and Bernie...

WARD: And I am going as Bernie dressed in drag.

BATTISTA: All right, you guys. Bernie and Steve...

WARD: It would be the only date you could get, Steve.

BATTISTA: Thank you very much. We appreciate it. And Paul Blum up in New York, we thank him. We will be back again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out."

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