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American Morning

Anthrax Investigation: Interview of Dr. Ivan Walks, Washington, D.C., Chief Health Officer

Aired November 01, 2001 - 09:18   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: New York officials are calling the first anthrax death in this city a homicide. Investigators are tracking the final steps of Kathy Nguyen, the fourth anthrax fatality in the nation, but the first with no apparent connection to either the news media or the postal service. But so far, clues are scarce.

CNN's Jason Carroll is at Lenox Hill Hospital, in Manhattan, where the woman died.

Jason, what's the latest?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula, this is a very troubling case for investigators, as you know. Right now, they simply have no idea how in the world Kathy Nguyen became exposed to these anthrax spores. So what they are going to do is retrace her steps over the past two weeks. Their investigation began at Manhattan Eye, Ear, and Throat Hospital; that is the hospital where Nguyen worked.

What they are going to do is they've run environmental samples in the work area where she worked -- that is a stockroom. So far, those test results have come back negative, but more tests are pending. They are also doing an environmental check of her apartment building, in the Bronx; specifically, they have taken a number of samples from her apartment, including from the air conditioner. So far, those tests have come back negative. But again, more tests are still pending.

We had an opportunity to speak with one of Nguyen's neighbors, and she talked about what it was like to have all of these investigators in that building.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNA RODRIGUEZ, NEIGHBOR OF KATHY NGUYEN: They came by the building yesterday, and they spoke to me personally. They are trying to find out what kind of activities Kathy used to do on a daily basis. And they asked me questions on how I was feeling. And we are very afraid because we don't know where this came from, how she contacted it. If it was in building, I lived in same building for 20 years -- it's very frightening.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CARROLL: Health officials are going to be paying close attention to the clothes that Nguyen was wearing when she checked into Lenox Hill hospital on Sunday. A preliminary test revealed that anthrax was found on those clothes. But again, more tests need to be done in that situation as well.

Also, more tests to be done on a suspicious case from another employee at Manhattan Eye, Ear, and Throat Hospital. Apparently, that employee has a suspicious lesion. More tests are being done in that case, as well.

Also, just within the past few minutes I had an opportunity to call the New York City Health Department, and they told me they are planning a press conference at about 10:00 Eastern time. Hopefully, Paula, at that time, we are going to be able to give more information about this case -- Paula.

ZAHN: Jason, I wonder if you had can confirm something "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting. They are saying that up until several days ago, the mail room and the supply room of this hospital were actually connected, and then a routine renovation took place. Have you heard that as well?

CARROLL: Absolutely. That is, in fact, the case. The way we understand it this stockroom, which is located, in the basement of Manhattan Eye, Ear, and Throat Hospital, at one point was in some way connected to the mail room. Both of those rooms were connected. So it is safe to say that Kathy Nguyen, while she worked in the stockroom, also worked very closely to the hospital's mail room.

But again, we are waiting for a press conference from the New York City Health Department, and once again, hopefully, at that time, we will be able to get more information about exactly what is happening at Manhattan Eye, Ear, and Throat Hospital -- Paula.

ZAHN: We will come back to you then. Jason, thanks so much.

More trace of contamination have also turned up in some other places. Susan Candiotti updates the investigation, from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With no obvious explanation for the death of New York hospital worker Kathy Nguyen, the anthrax investigation becomes even more puzzling.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They are following all her travels. They are trying to determine if she traveled anywhere domestically or foreign, who she may have come into contact with, any of the people that's she's associated with.

CANDIOTTI: The New York death, coupled with the New Jersey woman infected with skin anthrax who worked for an accounting firm, are two cases making it even more difficult to find a common thread among all the known cases. Neither had apparent links to a postal facility. About 30 miles from the contaminated postal facility in Hamilton Township, another New Jersey postal worker is now suspected of having skin anthrax. And now, this development. Anthrax spores discovered on two postal machines shipped to a private repair shop in Indianapolis, the shop now closed down.

DR. GREG WILSON, INDIANA STATE HEALTH COMMITTEE: The exposure was very limited. And at this level of exposure, anthrax is not a threat to human health here in Indiana.

CANDIOTTI: Amid the latest developments, the country's top law enforcer admits investigators are no closer to solving the anthrax attacks.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm not in a position to be able to say to you that we are on the brink of making an announcement here. We don't have progress to report at this time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: The attorney general is also acknowledging that three men arrested in Michigan after the September attacks are suspected of knowing in advance about them. The men are not charged in attacks. No one has been directly charged. As we reported, the men were arrested for holding false documents, and agents recovered a diagram of an airport flight line with notations in Arabic.

Again, authorities say at this time they have no evidence to connect the September 11 attacks to the anthrax attacks. Paula, it has now been one month since the first anthrax case was discovered, in Florida.

ZAHN: Susan, how much of a concern is there from the investigators you have spoken with that we really looking at a broadening anthrax situation here?

CANDIOTTI: There is a lot of concern about that, because if, indeed, it turns out that this woman who died in New York, was an outlier -- in other words, she fits outside the scenarios that they know about so far with any possible link to postal facility -- that is a major area of concern. That means they have to broaden their horizons ever before, and try to figure out an even broader scenario.

ZAHN: One that is that pretty frightening for all of us to contemplate.

Thanks so much, Susan.

One of Kathy Nguyen's neighbors told us earlier this morning that the people who live in her apartment building are worried that they may, too, be at risk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RODRIGUEZ: It is very scary because if Kathy can get this, anybody can get this. She was as normal as a normal person can be. (END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Washington's chief health officer Dr. Ivan Walks joins us now to talk about recognizing anthrax and treating it. He will also take some of your e-mails.

Good to see you, Doctor. Welcome back.

DR. IVAN WALKS, D.C. CHIEF HEALTH OFFICER: Good morning. Thank you.

ZAHN: Before we get to our viewers' mail, just a really quick question to you about this Kathy Nguyen situation. Jason Carroll just reported that the environmental tests so far have come back negative for traces of anthrax at the hospital where she worked and at her apartment -- there were trace amounts of spores found on her clothing. Does that, in your judgment, all point to the increasing possibility that she was infected in some other public place?

WALKS: One of the challenges with anthrax is that you don't get sick the minute you are infected, so it is difficult to go back and look over the last several days and follow every specific movement. The comforting thing is we have a lot of people trying to do exactly that, going back over, detail by detail, minute-by-minute, what exactly happened and where more than likely she may have been infected. We right now are thinking of her as an outlier because she doesn't fit that profile, but we may find that she does fit that profile, we just didn't know everything she was doing.

I think what's important is we have a lot of people looking at that, and speculation and raising a lot of fear before we know really is not helpful.

ZAHN: Doctor, now to our viewers' questions.

Our first one comes from Robert Willoughby of Charlottesville, Virginia. He writes, "Has there been any consideration to use a vaccine for anthrax the way individuals are vaccinated against other diseases, like small pox. Could this be done on a large scale?"

That is a tough one, isn't it? We talked about the supply available today.

WALKS: It is a tough one in a lot of different ways. We have heard our surgeon general, David Satcher, talk about that and certainly say that is under consideration. But as public health folks, all of us need to weigh risk and benefits. Vaccines are not without risk; you start vaccination large populations, you are going to have some negative side effects. We need to look carefully at one: how safe are vaccines, and that goes across the board. We talk about smallpox vaccine and others. How safe are the vaccines, who is really at risk, and then weigh that risk and benefit so we only vaccinate people appropriately, and we focus on public health, public safety -- we don't want to go around medicating everyone, vaccinating everyone, unless there is a clear indication. ZAHN: Let's move on to our second question. This one comes from Teri Olson, of Sarasota, Florida: "Why are some people getting inhalation anthrax and others only the skin type? If everyone wore masks when touching or opening mail and then washed their hands with anti-bacterial soap afterwards, would that help?"

WALKS: I think, first of all, wearing gloves if you are handling a lot of mail, washing your hands -- washing hands is the single best public health recommendation in the history of the world. Washing hands is always a good idea. But to take the issue of masks in your home, certainly people should do what they can to remain safe. You can look CDC Web sites and other Web sites and see what kinds of masks are the good ones to protect you. But when we start talking about wearing masks as a general rule, you would have to have your masks on every day, all the time. It would have to fit, and be custom fit. You couldn't have a beard. There are a lot of things that would entirely change our whole way of life.

Many things in life we do involve some risk. I think those of us who worry -- the public health folks who should worry -- should help define that risk so people know what level of risk they are taking as they do all of their everyday activities.

ZAHN: Doctor, I'm going to go to a third question, but warn you I may rudely interrupt you, as we await the opening of the New York Stock Exchange, and then we will come back and allow you to finish the question.

The question comes from Patt Scott, of New York. She writes, "If a person contracts any form of anthrax and recovers after receiving treatment with antibiotics, will he be immune to any future exposures of anthrax?"

WALKS: We currently don't believe that if someone finishes their antibiotics after an exposure that they will be immune. Antibiotics treat a current infection; they don't confer immunity. However, one of the things that the CDC is doing is taking blood samples from some of the folks who we know were in an exposure area and we know were taking antibiotics, to look and see if they are developing antibodies. Immunizations help you develop antibodies, so you can fight off things.

(INTERRUPTED BY STOCK MARKET OPENING)

ZAHN: So Doctor, you answered that question nicely from Patt Scott. Let's move on to the question from Patricia, from Illinois. Patricia has no last name today. "Would placing my home mail in the microwave for a period of time kill any anthrax contamination?"

Doctor?

WALKS: I think we've gotten some very clear recommendations from the U.S. Postal Service about how people should handle their mail. I -- all of those things are being looked into. You've got to be careful about putting something that the contents you don't know into a microwave. We've seen a lot of stories about what can happen with things that are unknown to you going into microwave. I think we should follow the Postal Service instructions.

And let me just take a minute and put some things into perspective. We are all concerned about what's happening with the mail. But we've had the Unabomber use the mail, we've had other people in the history of this country try to disrupt the mail and try to make us all afraid of the mail. Appropriate concern, following guidelines, very important. Disrupting our whole way of life so we're all afraid and the Postal Service crashes, I don't think we have any indication that that's an appropriate response and its certainly not a response that helps this country.

So follow the directions we're getting from the Postal Service, those cards have gone out to every household. But let's be careful about putting everything into a microwave. We can have some very bad results from that.

ZAHN: Let's move on to Catherine Weaver's question. She writes, "does the anthrax virus become less dangerous after time being exposed to outside air?"

WALKS: Let me just clear up one little technical thing. Anthrax is a bacteria, which is a good thing because it means we can have antibiotics kill it when it gets in us. So, viruses are a little bit more difficult to deal with, because antibiotics don't typically treat them. But anthrax, think about it like a seed. We all know that some seeds can sit in the ground for a long time, and when they get in most soil they germinate. Anthrax kind of works the same way. The spore we talk about is like a seed. It gets into our system through a cut in the skin -- skin anthrax. We breathe it in -- inhalation anthrax. Once it gets in there, it has to germinate.

But folks who live in the Midwest are looking at a lot us now and going, Come on, anthrax had been around forever. It kills cows every year, and those little anthrax spores, or seeds, can sit in the ground for years.

ZAHN: And then I guess which leads me to a very final question for you, the ever changing guidelines, and what amount of anthrax poses a danger. It used to be thought, what, 8,000 to 10,000 spores would get you sick. Today, we understand, there is a revision of that. Some people say its close to 2,500 spores. What does that mean?

WALKS: Well, to me it means that it's kind of like a little asbestos. A little bit pregnant. I'm not really focused on what people are saying about tests that really were done historically on routine anthrax that you find in the ground, that have been infecting cattle and goats, and what have you for years. We know that somebody made some anthrax, they made sort of fancy anthrax. It'll float a little bit better. It'll infect us a little bit better, and I think that we need to focus on the science, learning as much as we can about this.

Look, I don't know how you count 10,000 microscopic spores that are in the air. So I don't think that's a relevant conversation for most of us. Most of us walking down the street, opening our mail, taking care of our families, we want clear guidelines. If anthrax is in the air and it's bad for me, it's bad for me. But telling me how many spores are going to infect me -- I don't know how that helps the American public.

ZAHN: Dr. Ivan Walks, good job on those questions this morning. Thank you very much for being with us, we really appreciate your insights.

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