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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

War Room: Is Pakistan a Reliable Ally?

Aired November 07, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM. Law enforcement agents in the U.S. and abroad move against financial networks accused of funding Osama bin Laden's terror organization.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: By shutting these networks down, we disrupt the murderers' work.

BLITZER: One month and 2,000 sorties later the airstrikes continue over Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. PETER PACE, JOINT CHIEFS VICE CHAIRMAN: We are taking down air defense systems. We've taken their command-and-control communications equipment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Pakistan plays a crucial role in the anti-terror coalition. But is it a reliable partner? I'll ask Stephen Cohen of the Brookings Institution, Dr. Nasim Ashraf a close ally of Pakistan's president and Congressman Dana Rohrabacher a sharp critic, as we go into the WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. We'll get to our WAR ROOM session shortly, but first the latest developments. It's been almost two months since the September 11 terrorist attacks and exactly one month since the start of the U.S. air war. Today, President Bush took more steps to tighten the financial noose around those who support terrorism.

Let's go right to the White House where our senior correspondent John King is standing by with details -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Wolf, that financial crackdown on terrorists, one of the items being discussed at a very important dinner tonight in the White House residence, behind me. President Bush sitting down with leader who with President Bush has the most at stake, especially in this military campaign, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair both men met in the Oval Office earlier today. They also met with reporters before heading over to the residence for dinner. Mr. Bush making note of this financial crackdown today. The United States serving warrants here in the United States and other governments also taking action against two companies Mr. Bush and other administration officials say are the source of tens of millions of dollars to Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network. Mr. Bush saluting progress on that front -- taking claims as well, saying there's military progress, diplomatic progress, but even as he made those claims of progress, Mr. Bush made another appeal for patience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Remember, the war is beyond just Afghanistan. There are over 60 al Qaeda organizations around the world, and today we struck a blow for freedom by cutting off their money -- one of their money sources.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now it's the public opinion polls in Europe that are raising some questions about the strength of international support, in Great Britain support still high, but slipping some, in France, in Germany, elsewhere in Europe public opinion polls show rising skepticism about the U.S.-led military campaign. The prime minister as he appeared with President Bush here in the White House today, saying he sees no cracks at all in the international coalition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We obviously also discussed how important it is, that at this moment in time we carry on building that strong coalition, against international terrorism in all its forms. And I believe that coalition if anything is even stronger today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now, Mr. Blair discussing with President Bush we are told by British officials his desire to have preparations in place for an international military force, as well as the United Nations role in building a post-Taliban Afghanistan.

They are also discussing the likelihood, indeed the probability, Mr. Blair said, that more ground troops would be used in the military aspect of the campaign in the days and weeks ahead. And both leaders voicing frustration today with the lack of progress in negotiations. Negotiations aimed at bringing negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians, both leaders saying, though, their frustration with the Arab-Israeli conflict would not deter them from pressing ahead with the campaign in Afghanistan -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John, 24 hours from now the president will be preparing to deliver what the White House bills as a major address on homeland security. Give us a little preview.

KING: We are told, Wolf, to expect no new major initiatives, but that the president wanted to step back and detail for the American people -- pull together if you will all the various steps the government is taking. Whether it is the anthrax investigation, whether it's new steps to make irradiate -- to make the mail more safe, whether it is measures designed to help airline security or airport security. And the president, also we are told, wants to pay tribute to the American people for their patience and their help in this effort to build homeland security.

He will travel to Atlanta tomorrow night to give that speech. they are billing it as a major address, but they say do no expect any major new initiatives, just a summary from the president on the efforts of the administration to fight domestic terrorism here at home. Even as the military campaign in Afghanistan pressing on.

BLITZER: John king at the White House. Thank you very much.

And it was one month ago today that President Bush launched airstrikes against Afghanistan. Today the Pentagon said, U.S. forces are making progress in uprooting the Taliban.

CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre joins us now live from the Pentagon. But Jamie I understand there's some late news tonight, what do you have?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we just learned that a U.S. sailor has apparently fallen off, or gone over board the U.S. aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk, which is being used as a special operations platform. At this hour, the sailor has not been rescued, but we are told the water is warm there, so there is still a chance of a rescue. The search is under way for sailor.

Meanwhile, the Pentagon continues to give an upbeat assessment of its war one month in. But it still can't say exactly how or when it will accomplish its goals.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): At the one month mark, the Pentagon shows off its high-tech advantage with a display of how its advanced targeting systems can track Taliban vehicles, and even pick out an individual, just before a laser-guided bomb is unleashed to deadly effect. Juxtapose that with the 19th century tactics U.S. special forces report are employed by some factions of the Northern Alliance.

PACE: You have had one or more of your American service members, who are in harm's way over there, reporting back about cavalry charges, and this is opposition forces, riding horseback into combat against tanks and armored personnel carriers.

KING: Pentagon officials says there are some opposition forces in the north better equipped with tanks and other armor, but a big problem remains getting the competing factions to coordinate their battle plans. And while the rebels have occupied some Taliban territory near the strategic northern town of Mazar-e-Sharif. It's unclear if they took it by force, or if the Taliban retreated in the face of the punishing U.S. air assault. It's also unclear if the rebels can hold on to their battlefield gains.

PACE: It is fluid. They are fighting. It is true that some units move without being forced to do so. It is also true that other units are in direct contact.

KING: The Pentagon says its now directing about 2/3 of its strikes against Taliban forces arrayed against opposition militias, and about one-third are hitting the caves where Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network is known to hide. Even with bin Laden still eluding the U.S. and the Taliban still in power, the Pentagon insists the war is going according to plan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And Pentagon officials say that at this time U.S. Special Forces are on the ground in the south where they are helping some of the opposition groups who are not as organized as the Northern Alliance and they have more teams of special forces ready to go in -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): As both sides conduct a war of words the Taliban embassy in Islamabad has been a key outpost in the public relations battle. The Taliban ambassador has regularly held news conferences for dozens of reporters. But Pakistani officials have told him to tone down the rhetoric and Taliban sources say that really means a ban on speaking with the news media.

Meantime on his first trip outside of the country since September 11, President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan says he objects to a continuation of the bombing in Afghanistan during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. President Musharraf is headed to the U.S. he spent the day in Iran.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Pakistan's military government has sided with the U.S. in the war on terrorism, despite often violent opposition from hard-line Islamic groups. With that war now at the one month mark, how reliable an ally is Pakistan?

I'm joined by Dr. Nasim Ashraf who's close to Pakistan's president and heads a task force on human development, Stephen Cohen an expert on Pakistan and South Asia over at the Brookings Institution and Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher who once spent time with anti-Soviet fighters in Afghanistan and met last month with that Afghanistan's former monarch -- the exiled king in Rome.

Let me begin with you Congressman, very briefly gives us a sense a month into the airstrikes, how's the U.S. doing?

REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R-CA), INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, the president told us he would be methodical. And he was going to keep going, he would be consistent and persistent and that's what is happening. It's been one month -- actually two months since this tragedy in New York, but now fighting a war on the other side of the world. I think that the president and certainly Secretary Rumsfeld should be commended, and that we are using the technology, the technological advances we have to ensure minimum civilian casualties. And so I give the president an A-plus.

BLITZER: Dr. Ashraf, you just came back from Pakistan, he wants the U.S. to stop fighting November 17, the start of the holy month of Ramadan.

DR. NASIM ASHRAF, PAKISTAN TASK FORCE ON HUMAN DEVELOPMENT: Well, this war has several dimensions. One of them is the military dimension, another one is the political, which is stuttering and faltering. And I think the third is in public diplomacy, and I think that's where the failure has been in my opinion. When I was there, and I met a lot of people, traveled, went to Queta and Peshawar. The question raised in the minds of people is what are our views as to what we are achieving on the ground in Afghanistan.

It's not just a humanitarian thing -- I think the Ramadan thing one has to look at today's world -- this is not to be judged by the past, the Iraqis and Iranians were fighting during Ramadan so it should go on. But I think in today's world, for the hearts and mind of the people it will be critical --

BLITZER: Does that make any sense at all, Professor...

STEPHEN COHEN, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I agree entirely. And Congressman Rohrabacher, I'm not quite -- even though the president may know what we're doing, it's not quite clear whether Americans or certainly Pakistanis know exactly what our war aims are in Afghanistan. Is it to destroy the Taliban? Is it to destroy al Qaeda? The impression aboard is that we're out to kill Muslims or Afghans. I know that's not our goal, but I think there has been a tremendous failure of public diplomacy, in part because our information services were gutted a number of years ago.

ROHRABACHER: Of course, that was not the question I was asked. I was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) asked to talk about the military aspect of it. Our military fight right now deserves an A+. I would give our the actual diplomatic and political goal-making at the end as probably a C-.

COHEN: But the purpose of war is to achieve a political objective, and it's not clear what the political objective is.

ROHRABACHER: Well, let me put it this way. We -- I have not seen anyone step forward with the great game plan. I mean, I happen to believe Zaher Shah offers a tremendous opportunity for us to have an individual who's beloved by all the Afghan people to head a coalition government and then establish some sort of democratic process.

This administration has not made that our goal. But I haven't seen anybody say, well, someone else has a better idea. BLITZER: Dr. Ashraf, if the U.S. and its coalition partners stop fighting for a month effectively during Ramadan, won't that give the Taliban an opportunity to regroup and to potentially cause more damage?

ASHRAF: I think that's a legitimate question. The thing is that it doesn't just -- it's not an all-or-none phenomenon. There could still be limited strikes. There could be targeted strikes. But what I'm suggesting is that what is critically important is that the political process needs to be really speeded up, it needs to be augmented. And on the ground in Pakistan, we need to start doing more to show the people there as well as the Afghan refugees, who really truly streaming in -- and there's a humanitarian crisis of the worst kind on our hands over there -- that we are doing something and it's not something against the Afghan people.

BLITZER: Congressman, what else should the U.S. be doing on the...

ROHRABACHER: We should have an alternative. We should have an alternative very clearly. We should -- and I believe Zaher Shah is the...

BLITZER: He's the exiled king.

ROHRABACHER: The exiled king. He will bring back with him all of the educated people, because they won't come back with some of these radicals or some of these other less educated, let's say, alternatives that people have. And if we have that, we say, we are going to establish, eventually, with Zaher Shah leading a transition government to this end a democratic process and peace and prosperity. Then we would have a goal that people could understand, but we haven't expressed it yet.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by, everybody. We're going to take a quick break. Is the United States putting all its Afghanistan eggs in one basket? We'll look at the role of the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Our WAR ROOM discussion is on Pakistan and whether it's a reliable ally in the war against terror. But can the United States count on another ally, the anti-Taliban coalition in northern Afghanistan. We're going to get to both of those questions.

But Professor Cohen, you disagree totally with the congressman when it comes to the importance of the exiled king.

COHEN: Well, they're really two things. First of all, Afghanistan has had several rulers imposed upon it. The communists were imposed by the Soviets and then the Taliban were imposed by Pakistan. None of those worked out.

In the case of Zaher Shah, an 89-year-old man who hasn't done anything for his country in 35 years. I really don't think he's qualified to assume the leadership of Afghanistan.

He might be a figurehead. He might be a person on a postage stamp. But beyond that, there's a lot of distrust of him among Afghans of the past two generations.

ROHRABACHER: I don't know where you get your information, but my information is that he is the most beloved person in all Afghanistan. And even the most beloved person, you can pick him to death, because he's not perfect. And the bottom line is give me another name.

COHEN: If he was so beloved...

ROHRABACHER: Give me another name.

COHEN: If he was so beloved...

ROHRABACHER: We're talking about Shah. Give me another name.

COHEN: ... why hasn't he been in Afghanistan?

ROHRABACHER: No, no, no. Give me another name that's more beloved than...

COHEN: I don't think it's -- I don't think it's America's responsibility to choose a person for the Afghans.

ROHRABACHER: You see nobody has another option. See, that's it. Everybody always says, well, Zaher Shah is not perfect for this reason or that reason, but they never have another option.

BLITZER: There is another option. There's the Northern Alliance. What about the Northern Alliance, and in fact...

ROHRABACHER: They want Zaher Shah.

BLITZER: Let me -- let me pinpoint it directly with a question from one of our viewers, who sent me this e-mail. Darrell from Westlake Village, California. "How do we know after arming the Northern Alliance, training them to use these weapons, and helping them advance their cause that they will not turn on us?" What do you say about that?

ASHRAF: Well, the Northern Alliance is definitely a player in the game, but it's a small player. It's been up in the north, and I don't think, like I said, you know, on this a month ago that they either have the military or the political clout to go and take over and be a controlling factor for Afghanistan.

But I think, in following up on the king option, he certainly could be a titular head at this point in time. The issue is that finally the United Nations is now moving toward a political dispensation, and I think that our efforts need to augment that part of it. The special envoy (UNINTELLIGIBLE) has been there. He's traveled to Pakistan. He's been to Iran. He's been to Turkey.

And I think with that in mind the king could play a role. I do agree with Professor Cohen that the king left in '73 and everybody thought he was forgotten. But I was surprised to see in Peshawar just two weeks ago that the rank-and-file of Afghans still hold him in some esteem.

BLITZER: You know, the secretary of state did send Richard Haas, a top State Department official, over to Rome to meet with the king.

COHEN: I'm not sure what the results were, but I don't think there's going to be a ringing endorsement by the Americans of Zaher Shah. He's -- he's -- he really has not gone back in 30 years. He could have. There were opportunities for him. He stayed in Italy and not really played any role in Afghan politics.

ROHRABACHER: That's why his hands are clean. Everybody else who's been around in those 30 years, they have blood dripping from their hands.

BLITZER: Let's talk about President Musharraf for a second. Do you have confidence that he can get the job done working with the United States to come up with a new regime in Afghanistan?

ROHRABACHER: Excuse me. Who again? I'm sorry.

BLITZER: President Musharraf of Pakistan?

ROHRABACHER: Oh, OK. Well, I -- I think he's got his own problems. And I don't think that he's the one or the Pakistanis are the ones who should be deciding who is going to be the government of Afghanistan.

BLITZER: Because if you listen to the Northern Alliance officials, they blame Pakistan, President Musharraf, for helping to create the Taliban.

ROHRABACHER: Well, they did. The Taliban were totally created by the Saudis be and the Pakistanis.

ASHRAF: Well, I don't quite agree with that. I think at the time, '92 to '95, when the Northern Alliance was in power, President Rabbani, who was put in there as a compromise, because this was the Islamabad agreement -- and it was a rotating presidency -- he refused to step down from power. At that time, the United States, the Saudis, and the Pakistanis, everybody in the world thought that the Taliban would bring peace and quiet to Afghanistan. Of course, later on, within a year or two, everybody realized the Taliban's repressive social policies and political policies were not OK.

But I don't think that in Afghanistan today there is a single unifying force...

BLITZER: Let's let Professor Cohen weigh in.

COHEN: Look, I think President Musharraf and Pakistan will be reliable allies as long as it's in their interests to be reliable. The us8 and Pakistan are now between two horses. We have a temporary alignment with each other. That could change very quickly, but I think the Chinese, the Russians, a lot of other countries would like Pakistan to stay in this. And I think it's in Pakistan's interest to support the war, at least for several months. If this dragged on beyond next spring, then I think there might be problems, because this would begin to affect Pakistan domestically.

BLITZER: Everybody stand by. We're going to take another quick break. Coming up in the WAR ROOM, the nuclear nightmare. Pakistan has tested nuclear weapons. How safe is its arsenal? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We are back in the CNN WAR ROOM. Is Pakistan a reliable ally in the anti-terror campaign, and how reliable are the safeguards on its nuclear arsenal? Let's go to Congressman Rohrabacher.

In "The New Yorker," Seymour Hersh writes this week, he says: "Some of the government's" -- U.S. government's -- "most experience South Asia experts have doubts about Musharraf's ability to maintain control over the military and its nuclear arsenal in the event of a coup."

ROHRABACHER: Well, we have every reason to be concerned. And of course, if the situation gets out of control, we could have some sort of an exchange between India and Pakistan. And it's something that we should have been working on a long time ago.

But again, for 10 years, we have not been engaged in this region. He should have been trying to help them solve the Kashmir problem. We should have been working to set up some other, other alternative than the Taliban for Afghanistan, and instead we just stayed away.

BLITZER: If something were to happen to President Musharraf, what would happen to that nuclear arsenal?

ASHRAF: Pakistan's nuclear assets, the command and control is absolutely in safe hands. The major Pakistan strategic assets, and they're not going to get into any kind of unsafe hands. Secretary Rumsfeld, Secretary Powell, all have clearly endorsed that position. Even none other than the Indian defense minister, Fernandes, very clearly said that Pakistan's nuclear assets are not an issue. This is a very disciplined, professional army.

BLITZER: Let me ask Professor Cohen. Professor Cohen, you've studied this region for years.

COHEN: Yeah, I think Hersh's report is exaggerated. There was a period when Musharraf's position itself was uncertain. We didn't know who would succeed him or whether he would hang onto power.

But I think now that he's in power, he's actually in better shape than President Zia was. I don't think there's any serious question of the risk of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal falling out of control. There may be a question of the individual Pakistani scientists who sold their expertise elsewhere, and I think that's a risk that is worth looking at.

And I agree with Congressman Rohrabacher, we were so obsessed with other issues we did not pay enough attention to Pakistan, on this and other issues.

BLITZER: And that's...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: ... but go ahead...

(CROSSTALK)

ASHRAF: The two Pakistani scientists that were recently mentioned, I mean, they were at such a junior level they didn't even have access to this kind of thing, No. 1. And No. 2, I think the issue of the engagement, I think that's critical. I mean, we walked away from Afghanistan in 1990, and I think the key thing that everybody in that region is looking for is the United States going to say.

Is Pakistan a reliable ally? People are asking, is the United States a reliable long-term friend?

BLITZER: All right. We're going to have to leave it right there unfortunately. We're all out of time.

Doctor Ashraf, Congressman Rohrabacher, Professor Cohen, thanks for joining us.

And "CROSSFIRE" comes your way at the bottom of the hour. Bill Press joins us now live with a preview -- Bill.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST, CNN'S "CROSSFIRE": You bet, Wolf. Thanks.

President Bush enjoys 87 percent approval in the polls, but yesterday's biggest victories went to Democrats. A Democrat will be the new governor in New Jersey and Virginia, and a man who only recently became a Republican is the new mayor of New York City. What's it all mean and what impact will it have on next year's congressional races? The two top political honchos of Congress battle it out next on "CROSSFIRE." So fasten your seat belt, Wolf. Back to politics.

BLITZER: It's fastened. I'm ready to go. Thanks, Bill.

Authorities have released a 911 call from a postal worker who later died of anthrax. An excerpt from that call -- it's remarkable -- when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here are some of the latest developments we're following right now. Authorities have released a tape of a 911 call made by a Washington postal worker just hours before he died of inhaled anthrax.

Thomas Morris Jr. suspected he had it because he'd been exposed to a suspicious letter.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

THOMAS MORRIS JR., ANTHRAX VICTIM: There was -- a woman found the envelope, and I was in the vicinity. It had powder in it. They never let us know whether the thing had -- was anthrax or not. They never treated the people who were around this particular individual, and the supervisor who handled the envelope.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BLITZER: Chilling. And sources at the Pentagon tell CNN a search is under way right now for a sailor from the USS Kitty Hawk who's apparently fallen overboard in the Arabian Sea. The Kitty Hawk is serving as a floating base for the U.S. campaign in Afghanistan.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow, twice, at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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