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Interview With James Roche; Interview With Rudolph Giuliani; Interview with Nelson Mandela

Aired November 13, 2001 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, dramatic developments in Afghanistan, where Northern Alliance forces have the Taliban on the run. But still no sign of Osama bin Laden. What's next for the U.S.-led war on terrorism?

In New York, famous for his high profile coverage of Mid East conflicts, "60 Minutes II" correspondent Bob Simon. Live from Kabul with the very latest CNN's Matthew Chance.

Then, what new challenges is the U.S. military face now? Here in New York Secretary of the Air Force James G. Roche, and with him Air Force Chief of Staff General John Jumper.

Also, with the latest on the crash of American Airline flight 587, and his own future, New York's Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

We will find out why former South African President Nelson Mandela, by the way, is backing the war on terror.

And finally, for our finale, a song you have never heard before. Ann Hampton Callaway sings "I Believe in America."

It's all next, on LARRY KING LIVE!

KING: Good evening we are in New York, we will be here all week.

We begin with Matthew Chance, CNN correspondent in Kabul, and Bob Simon CBS "60 Minutes II" correspondent, he also contributes to the Sunday night edition of 60 minutes, he's here with us in New York. First gentlemen, a report we are just getting in that Secretary of State Colin Powell has told reporters at a Russian embassy reception, he thought it's possible the Taliban forces have reached the breaking point, he explained the break point in military jargon -- it's a point in which an army can not take more punishment and runs away in disarray. Is that what you are seeing or hearing over there, Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly it seems to tally with what we are seeing and hearing here, over the past week, we have been seeing, an effective collapse of the Taliban, across the country of northern -- the territory of Northern Afghanistan. We have seen the strategically important city of Mazar-e-Sharif fall into the hands of the Northern Alliance. Then the extremely important city in west of Afghanistan, Herat that is also fallen, to the Northern Alliance, as well.

Now I'm standing in this vantage point overlooking the Afghan capital itself. Until yesterday, it was a stronghold of the Taliban militia, now those forces have completely abandoned it, and left it to the forces of the opposition, Northern Alliance. They're in total control now. It's very calm in the city behind me, they fanned out throughout those streets imposing their rule -- Larry.

KING: Bob Simon, does this surprise you?

BOB SIMON, CBS CORRESPONDENT: No. But we have to remember that the Taliban wasn't our enemy, the Taliban has been in power for five years, they have been locking up their women, and banning music, and being miserable fanatics. And we let it happen, we didn't care.

Al Qaeda is our enemy, and it doesn't seem like we've gotten there yet so --

KING: This is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to intertwine the two, have we not?

SIMON: Yes, but one is one and the other is the other -- Taliban regime has certainly been giving Qaeda shelter. Qaeda certainly has been financing Taliban, they have had a symbiotic relationship, but until the Qaeda network is unraveled we are still facing a threat, which is what we have gone there to eliminate.

KING: Would you call this news encouraging?

SIMON: Yes. I don't think surprising. I mean with amount of bombing that we have been putting there, I don't think it's surprising that the Taliban have at least retreated, that's all we know. We don't know that they have been defeated, I mean, the nightmare of course is that they retire to their caves in mountains and wage guerrilla war.

And remember these crowds that are cheering the Northern Alliance coming in, there were crowds cheering the Taliban coming in five years ago. This is a region where the victor gets applauded.

KING: Now, the Northern Alliance, Matthew, says that its invited all of the countries, factions -- except the Taliban -- to come together to talk about a new government. Is that going to work Matthew?

CHANCE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to say, Larry, certainly though that it is what the Northern Alliance have been saying now after entering Kabul. They said that they're still committed to forging some kind of ethnically broad-based political agreement that brings in all those diverse ethnic groups for a future power sharing agreement here in Afghanistan. But they also committed earlier, remember, to stay outside the gates of the Afghan capital, Kabul, and not enter the city until such an agreement was on the table and signed and sealed as it were -- they completely went against that. They saw the opportunity to come into Kabul, they said they saw the Taliban on the run and simply moved in to prevent a power vacuum, and to prevent anarchy breaking out on the streets here.

KING: Bob, you have said, and told us that you want us to be tougher. Can you elaborate? I mean, last time you were here you were in a very tough mood.

SIMON: First of all, I hear these words being used now of power sharing, and representative government, and democracy. In Afghanistan? Rudyard Kipling had one of his characters use a line about Afghanistan, saying that people who use knives and forks can never understand this place.

Yes, we have to get tougher, we have to follow through. We went into Lebanon, and when we got bloodied we left. We went to Somalia, when we got bloodied we left. We went into -- Iraq to get to Saddam Hussein, and we didn't. That's not how you behave as an imperial power, and this is how the Middle East sees us, as an imperial power.

KING: How do you -- what do you do?

SIMON: You follow through. You follow through.

KING: You take the country, and --

SIMON: No, you don't have to take country, that wasn't our objective. Our objective was to route out al Qaeda. And we have to do that in Afghanistan, and wherever they are in Europe and the United States, we've got to eliminate the cells.

For the time being our prime objective, I would have thought, is to defend ourselves and we seem to be doing that, you keep them on the run. If you have Osama bin Laden, even if he is alive, which he certainly seems to be tonight, if you have him running from cave to cave, he can't be planning any massive operation against the United States. If the police and the intelligence people are in Europe have cells in Europe on the run, maybe then catching up with everyone of them now, but they are keeping them off balance. And we have to keep on doing that.

KING: Matthew, we have seen some changes already, women taking off their scarfs that cover the faces, men shaving their beards. Is there a lot of pro-Western feeling in Afghanistan?

CHANCE: It might sound hopelessly optimistic, to talk about what Bob Simon just mentioned, there is at least here on the streets some hope that this is the last chance for Afghanistan to really get together, and to try and come together, if not in a democracy as we know it, then in some kind of power sharing agreement -- where all the different ethnic groups can at least live together, without fighting each other, without killing each other.

The other point I wanted to make, that is of course, the Northern Alliance still have these shared enemies, we have talked about Taliban and the al Qaeda network, these are also the enemies of the Northern Alliance. No one has more experience in fighting them, than they do. They have their own axe to grind, as well, their own military objectives as a result of the fact that they blame the al Qaeda network and Osama bin Laden, for assassinating their much loved military leader Ahmed Shah Massoud. So they say they will continue to attack the Taliban wherever they are hiding.

On the other issue, reaction of people on the streets say yes, there have been these scenes of joy, and in Kabul. But perhaps they are masking the sort of sense of concern that many people here feel, that with return of the Northern Alliance, the power here in Kabul, and with the divisions that are inherent in that alliance it may might mark a plunge a return to a -- a plunge back into the kind of chaos and violence that really ravaged this city in the years before the Taliban took over. So there are mixed emotions here on the streets of Kabul -- Larry.

KING: Bob, you mentioned an imperial power acts imperially, but doesn't also an imperial power have to show restraint?

SIMON: It has to show generosity after it's conquered its enemies. And I think if we get to that point, then it is a time to take a real deep look at how policy in this part of the world, which has been so lacking for so many decades now.

KING: In many administrations, right?

SIMON: Through all administrations --

KING: Why?

SIMON: Across the board, well first of all, in terms of the miserable policy towards Saudi Arabia and that since -- to which we have danced to their tune, the word is oil. In terms of Israel, Palestine -- it's more domestic American politics.

And all these things will have to be looked at very, very carefully. But first we have to get these guys.

KING: Thank you, Bob, always good seeing you.

SIMON: Thanks.

KING: Bob Simon of CBS. Matthew Chance CNN's man on the scene, in Kabul.

When we come back, together, the chief of staff of the Air Force and the secretary of the Air Force. And still to come the mayor of New York, and the former President of South Africa Nelson Mandela

Tomorrow night Barbara Walters.

And we will be right back, don't go away.


KING: It's now a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE -- together -- the secretary of the Air Force, the honorable James G. Roche; and the chief of staff of the United States Air Force, of course a member of the joint chiefs, General John P. Jumper -- honor to have them with us at our studios here in New York.

We'll start with the secretary -- Secretary, what do you make of the statement by Colin Powell tonight that they are on the run?

JAMES G. ROCHE, AIR FORCE SECRETARY: Well, I think he is absolutely correct. They were spread out in northern parts of Afghanistan all over. They have now realized they have to concentrate to the southeast. That is a part of our plan. Our plan was to root them out, get them moving. They are moving. And they are on the run.

It doesn't mean this is over, Larry. This is going to go on for some time. And we can't be elated one day and depressed the next day. We have got to be very steady through this. But we will keep hunting them. And we will keep going after Taliban targets, after al Qaeda, even if they move to the southeast.

KING: What did this, General?

GENERAL JOHN JUMPER, AIR FORCE CHIEF OF STAFF: Well I think its a combination of things, Larry.

We have done a great job with air power, starting slowly at first, and then picking up with accuracy as we got people on the ground to actually designate the targets for us, we got more and more accurate. So I think it's a combination of the people on the ground, the special forces on the ground and the air power becoming more and more accurate, more and more focused, that has got this thing rolling for us.

KING: You stepped into this job when, Mr. Secretary?

ROCHE: First of June.

KING: OK, so you are new on the job and -- bam -- this happens.

ROCHE: Right. My partner showed up two months ago.

KING: You just showed up. What surprised you the most?

ROCHE: About the Air Force or about the war?


KING: Yes, both.

ROCHE: Fantastic people in the Air Force, very willing to change, very willing to adapt to a new era, a lot of transformation going on.

Both John and I are responsible for an organization that has got 750,000 people, military and civilian. And we are transforming it. We're supporting a CINC who is fighting the war. General Tommy Franks is a great guy and we're trying to do our best to support him. And our people have just been superlative.

KING: Is your role on the joint chiefs, General, to push the Air Force's position and its role or to make this a cooperative movement?

JUMPER: Larry, we never fight alone. There is no one element of war that is going to go do the whole job. So we all have to work together. And, I'm proud to say, that is what we do.

My colleagues in the joint chiefs of staff feel the same way about it. And what we see in action over there today is a combination of air, land and sea power cooperating and working together. And I think the results are beginning to speak for themselves.

KING: Does bin Laden have to be rooted out for this to be called a success?

ROCHE: Well, I don't think this is a conflict against a person. It is a conflict against an organization, al Qaeda. Whether we catch bin Laden or not, is it to destroy al Qaeda's ability to inflict international terrorism on us. That is the goal and I agree with Don Rumsfeld. And he has got it absolutely right, that this going to take time, this is a marathon, not a sprint and that we are determined to keep pushing forward. And so far, the American people are right with us, Larry.

KING: We generally tend, General, to be impatient. Why do we have to be so patient now?

JUMPER: Well, Larry, the president has said this very well, this is a marathon and not a sprint. And you used the right word a few minutes ago with Bob Simon: We are encouraged.

But we are in this for the long run. We are going to continue to do our job. And we are going to continue to track down these elements of the Taliban and the al Qaeda until we run them into the ground. If they hide, we'll root them out. But the job is not over. And this is not just about one terrorist organization, one person or one group. We have to deal with this in a worldwide basis. So we're just getting started here.

KING: Tactically, what's the difficulty?

JUMPER: Well, the weather is always a problem in this part of the world. And that is my job.

I talk to Tommy Franks several times a week, the commander of the central command who is running this operation. Our job is to overcome the hardships, make sure that we can give him the people and the equipment he needs to get this job done in the right proportion, in the right command and control. So far, so good -- the weather will pose us increasing problems as it gets worse here as the time goes on.

KING: What's the role between the two of you, Mr. Secretary?

ROCHE: Well, we are a team. The law is very -- we are -- the law is very clear...


KING: You're the boss.

ROCHE: I'm the secretary. I'm the boss. But, when it comes to operational matters, John has the expertise, I don't. But I can support John. I know military things. I know the industrial base and I work with him.

And, you know, we face now, for our Air Force really, two conflicts going on at the same time. There's the deployed conflict, we have 11,000 airmen who are involved in protecting American skies every day, Larry. We have something like 260 planes that are allocated, 350 crews...

KING: Out flying all the time?

ROCHE: We have CAP over New York and over Washington all the time. We have AWAXs. You know, we have NATO troops in AWAX airplanes helping to monitor the skies. We do random CAP over cities across the United States to protect the American people as they would wish it to be.

KING: So, how does that work, General? You mean, tonight you might fly over Cleveland?

JUMPER: That's exactly right.

We've got -- within 12 minutes of when the tragic accident happened yesterday morning, we had 20 airplanes in the air in addition to what was already there. Not only that, these are mostly Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve crews that are doing this -- 75 or 80 percent -- in addition to our active duty. This is a total force effort. And I tell you, there are some great Americans up there protecting us right now, Larry.

KING: Do you get tips, General -- or rather Mr. Secretary -- for both of you, that we may never hear about, that you think these sorties have prevented?

ROCHE: Sometimes we do, we are not really sure what's all involved in them. We feel as long as the American people need this, as long as the president has directed this, that we will do it.

We have a lot of civilians who are Air National Guardsmen and reservists who are flying these flights. As the general said, about three-quarters of them are. But they are all over the country. And we don't know if this is going to last for a very long time. I can tell you it is tying up a lot of people, tying up a lot of airplanes that we would normally use for deployment. And, in fact, we have almost as many people tied up over the skies of the United States as we do extra people we have sent to south Asia.

KING: That's never happened, one would imagine, right?


KING: OK. When they go up, they go up to look around, basically? JUMPER: They are up there in their orbit. They are getting -- they are tied into the FAA. General Ed Eberhart out at North American Air Defense Command is in charge of the operation. And they watch for things that are unusual. They monitor the radios and they are ready to go if anything unusual crops up.

In the incidences we read about in the newspaper with unruly passenger -- there has been a couple of them -- actually...


JUMPER: Yes, we had a couple of our airplanes join up and escort those airplanes in.

KING: What keeps the morale high when you are basically going up and looking around?

ROCHE: Well, I think what happened in New York, what happened in the Pentagon has hit every American, especially those who wear uniforms. Whether they have been Marines or soldiers or sailors, our airmen recognize that maybe they could stop something like that from happening again. That keeps morale awfully high.

KING: Back to Afghanistan -- Do you expect this government to work eventually, General? The Northern Alliance and others getting together -- Bob Simon was not very optimistic in that regard.

JUMPER: Well, I respect the opinion of Bob Simon and of course this is General Colin Powell's province much more than mine.

Our job is to make sure that we get these guys, that we make the al Qaeda and the Taliban unworkable. And we are going to continue to do that. The government that finally replaces what's there now is going to be, I think, maybe a more difficult task than the military one.

KING: Do you face any kind of rough resistance?

JUMPER: Well, initially of course, there was great uncertainty. When you first go into a place, you never know what to expect.

When we went into Serbia in the Kosovo War in March of 1999, quite frankly, we expected the pilots to be much better than they were. But their surface-to-air missile operators were probably better than we thought. So you just don't know until you get there.

So when we got there, we were able to take out their sophisticated defenses rather early. And since then, we have been able to do pretty much what we want, Larry.

KING: What's the impact of the secretary -- the secretary of the Army, secretary of the Air Force, secretary of the Navy -- when everyone gathers together with Secretary Rumsfeld and the joint chiefs. What is your role in that?

ROCHE: Well it depends. If it is a purely military matter, it will be the chairman of the joint chiefs, John and his colleagues.

KING: But do you set policy?

ROCHE: We assist the secretary in setting policy. And we will set policy in our own departments with regard to the nation's policy that's clearly done in the National Security Council, the president, the secretary of Defense, secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice and others.

We will make inputs, but we tend to make inputs from the point of view of our own department. When we gather together, as you mentioned, it has to do with things like worrying about how we protect the Pentagon, long run what our roles are, how do we do different sorts of things. There is just a department to run.

And we have a transformation that we have been trying to do and we have to support the secretary and what he has to get done.

KING: Have we lost any Air Force personnel to this minute?

JUMPER: We have lost one person that was actually one of our support people over in the Gulf in one of our bases in a ground accident. But nothing to military conflict yet.

KING: Will casualties stay low?

JUMPER: Well, you can never expect zero casualties. And. of course, we are always prepared to take casualties. But I tell you, Larry, our people are the best trained people in the world. Our Air Force is the envy of every other Air Force, so is our Navy and our Army. We're going to do this the right way.

ROCHE: We have also managed to introduce unmanned vehicles, and let them take casualties.

KING: And it is now definite, the fighting will go on through Ramadan?

JUMPER: We would expect it to, yes.

KING: A given.

KING: Thank you both, very much.

JUMPER: Terrific.

KING: Honor having you with us together.

ROCHE: Thank you, very much.

KING: Our guests have been the chief of staff of the Air Force, General John P. Jumper, and his boss, although they call themselves Frik and Frak, Secretary of the Air Force James Roche. It is nice to see the military and the civilian get together so well with the secretary and the general. When we come back, a man who is both -- I guess he is secretary- general of everything, our own Rudy Giuliani. Hey, if I have to tell you who he is, you are on another planet in a far off land. Don't go away.


DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The forces of Taliban and al Qaeda have several choices. They can flee and reorganize in the south, they can flee and melt into the countryside, or they can defect. If they reorganize in the south we are going to go get them. If they go to ground we will, as the president said, root them out. And if they decide to flee, I doubt that they will find peace wherever they select.



KING: He is still laughing over "Frick and Frak" by the way, they gave me permission to do that in the green room. The secretary and the general said, we are Frick and Frak. I said, can I quote you? Yes. They are happy to be joined at the hip. You can't get over it, can you?

We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE one of our favorite people, the mayor of New York, one of the most popular people in the world, Rudy Giuliani.

On a personal note tomorrow night, his friends from all over are going to honor him with a big dinner here. The proceeds going to the Twin Tower Fund, and I have been asked to emcee that dinner. I am looking forward to it.

MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: I hope we don't violate the fire code or the building code or that kind of thing.

KING: You deserve it.

GIULIANI: Thank you.

KING: OK, the crash of American Airline Flight 587. First of all, where were you?

GIULIANI: I was in my office having a meeting. It was technically a city holiday, it was the official Veterans' Day. And I was having a meeting with four or five people, and one of the police officers walked in and said, a plane is down in the Rockaways. We don't know if it is a small plane or a large plane and it has hit several homes.

KING: First thought?

GIULIANI: Obviously, first thought was that we have to assume immediately that this is an attack, until we know otherwise. So I immediately called the head of our office of emergency management, Richard Sheirer, who happened to be out on the Bell Parkway at the time. He actually saw some of it.

So he headed directly there, called police commissioner Kerik, and we decide that we would go out there but not take the helicopters because we didn't want to use the helicopters. We wanted them to be part of the emergency operation. So we set up a caravan and just started heading right out there.

And while we were in the van, I called the White House and talked to Andy Card, the president's chief of staff and eventually the president, and they told me that there was air cover. They had had no intelligence on it. In other words there was no one taking credit for it. And I talked to the governor, and by the time we got there we had determined that we would close down the city from the point of view of people entering the city, not exiting.

And the police commissioner deployed a plan that we have in place to cover the city in a situation like this. And then we went up -- then when we got there, myself, the police commissioner...

KING: By that time you knew that it was American Airlines, a flight going to Santo Domingo, you knew all that.

GIULIANI: And there was a tremendous amount of fire and spoke when we first got there and you really couldn't see on the ground. So we grabbed a helicopter and went up in the air so the fire commissioner could see it from above to get an idea of where all the fires were. And when we got above it we were actually somewhat relieved, although it sounds terrible to say with the tremendous number of casualties involved, we were relieved because the area that it hit was so confined.

Because when it was being described to me, and that it was an Airbus that came down, I had a -- we all had a sense that it probably took out four or five blocks. But it came down in a way in which it just landed in one particular place.

KING: So many things must have been going through you -- right -- terrorists -- not terrorists -- accident -- not accident -- your own city, and what is happening, right? Did all those things converge?

GIULIANI: Um-hmm, but you know, we have been through it so often, meaning emergencies in the past, you sort of go into automatic pilot.

KING: Really?

GIULIANI: Into a -- you know what your response has to be, which is, we have to focus on, how do we protect the city in case there is another attack? How do we confine the fire? How do we make sure we have the right number of emergency people out here? We realize once we got above the fire we could see it, that we actually had too many people there, that there were too many police officers and firefighters and it might hurt the -- ability of emergency vehicles to get in and out. So we actually removed some people. And I have to say, I mean, I just have to say this about our firefighters and police officers: If anybody has the slightest concern over their morale, yesterday would dispel it completely.

The way in which they put out that fire -- I mean that was a massive, massive fire, and jet fuel all over the place. The fire was out in two hours. It never got beyond where it originally started. And it is because of their expertise, their bravery, their unbelievable ability to fight fire, which is, I think, unlike anybody else in the world.

KING: Are you the command center? Are you in charge? Or do you have a special person for something like this?

GIULIANI: The head of the Office of Emergency Management would be the person who is actually in charge of any emergency, that is Richard Sheirer. And then depending on the nature of the emergency, that would be the fire department -- would be in charge of emergency that was taking place because it was primarily a fire.

KING: Can you tell us what the president...

GIULIANI: If it was an attack, it would have been the police department.

KING: What did the president say?

GIULIANI: The president -- I talked to the president when I actually got to the scene and I described to him what I saw. And the part I remember the most distinctly was the president said, New York is being tested again. He said it is a shame New York is being tested again. I said Mr. President, we will pass the test like we did last time. He said, I know you will.

KING: How long can you keep...

GIULIANI: ... passing tests?

KING: Really, how long?

GIULIANI: As long as is necessary.

KING: There is fortitude and there is fortitude.

GIULIANI: As long as it is necessary. Let's assume that what happened yesterday was an accident. I don't know that we can assume that. I guess we can assume it for the discussion. I think they have to finish the investigation before...

KING: The are assuming it, aren't they, at the current time?


GIULIANI: I think that is the hypothesis, but I think they are looking at every single aspect of it to make sure. But given what happened on September 11 and some of the other things that have happened, anything like this now is going to tend to really frighten people. And what our job is, I think, as political leaders, leaders in the community, is to try to get people to learn how to deal with this.

That is a psychological thing that is going on. They are playing -- playing with our heads. And the fact is that things are safe, people can go forward with their lives. There are risks in life, and we have to try very, very hard to get people back to normal. And that is why we kept the emergency plan in place for two hours...

KING: Not long.

GIULIANI: ... when we determined that there was no risk of further attack, at least no evidence of any further attack, the governor and I decided -- Governor Pataki -- and I decided jointly that we should open the city and not close it down. We would probably have a few more checkpoints. And we are on a pretty high state of alert anyway. I keep kidding around with Bernie and Tom, the fire commissioner and the police commissioner, when we hear we are on the highest state of alert, I call up and I say, OK, what is the next higher state of alert we can go to? What do we do next?

KING: Through all this, Mr. Mayor, have there been disagreements or has this been an unusual meeting of the agreements -- you, Pataki, police, fire, et cetera? I mean there are a lot of individualists here. How well has it worked?

GIULIANI: It has worked very, very well.

KING: Surprisingly well?

GIULIANI: Sure. It is a -- whenever we work as a unit, we sit down, we work things out. Sure there are sometimes disagreements on tactics. I can't think of a serious one. I can't think of like any...

KING: Not one argument?

GIULIANI: No, not at all. No. Just different points of view sometimes.

KING: Nobody saying, we've got to do this and you are wrong?

GIULIANI: No, absolutely. It is, I think, from the moment this happened, every single one of us, had great deal of humility about it. No matter how much expertise we had, no matter how much background we had, things we have done in the past, emergencies we have handled, I think we realize we are in a new world and we all need help.

I need the governor's help, the governor needs our help, I need the police commissioner's help, police commissioner needs the fire commissioner's help. We need to all work together.

KING: Have you gotten good at comforting the afflicted?


KING: Is there a modus operandi to how you do that? GIULIANI: You know, I got a lot of experience in doing it. I was sworn in mayor of New York City -- actually in the evening of January 1 1994, at midnight, I became mayor. By 3:00 in the morning I was out in a hospital in the Bronx with two police officers that had been injured.

I have been with police officers and firefighters and sanitation workers and correction officers when they get injured, when they get killed in the line of duty, gone to their funerals, comforted their families. I feel that is part of my obligation as the mayor.

KING: So you get used to it?

GIULIANI: No, it gets worse, actually. And the worst part of this is because of the large numbers, the numbers that reach almost 400 in terms of uniformed officers. I can't go to every funeral, I can't go to every wake. I try to do as many as possible. Sometimes I have done 4, 5, 6 in a day. I used a helicopter in order to accomplish it.

Today, in the mist of all this opening the family center and dealing with -- I've been to Rockaway, I was to Washington heights, I was at the family center, I was with the governor. I took some time off to go to the funeral of Lieutenant Levy, who had his funeral today in Westchester County.

I try to go to as many as possible, but I can't go to all of them and it is killing me, and the fire commissioner, because up until this, I would spend a great deal of time with the family of a police officer, or a firefighter, or a sanitation worker, person who lost their life in the line of duty. It is my job as mayor to do that. You don't really learn how to do it, it just comes out of your humanity. You feel tremendous things for them. I had uncles who were police officers and firefighters, and they do something very special, and if you don't feel for them, I don't know who you feel for.

KING: Our guest is the mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani. Later, Nelson Mandela, the former president of South Africa. We'll be right back.


KING: Before we talk about some other things with our remaining moments with the mayor, he has a little announcement to make. And this is the place to make it.

GIULIANI: I was in Washington Heights at a memorial tonight, and earlier I was in Rockaway, talking to people there. And when I was in Washington Heights it just seemed to me the appropriate thing to do is to bring the two communities together for some form of a memorial service at the appropriate time.


GIULIANI: We have two beautiful communities. Rockaway has been a place that has absorbed a significant amount of the losses we had at the World Trade Center, police officers, firefighters, people working in the financial institutions at the World Trade Center. I think I have been to 20 funerals and wakes in Rockaway.

Washington heights is the place, really, that is the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the Dominican community, not the only place, but probably the primary place and so many families, from -- Washington heights have been affected by this crash. These are two very, very similar communities in terms of their religious faiths.

KING: What is your idea?

GIULIANI: ... see if we can bring them together. Several people in Rockaway recommended it, several people in...

KING: So, you are going to have a combined like service.

GIULIANI: I think we should try to find the right time and the right place and do it.

GIULIANI: And where do you do it at?

GIULIANI: I don't know. We will think about that. We are very good at coming up this sort of -- people that work with me are very good at it -- I'm not very a good at it.

KING: What are your plans, Rudy? What are you going to do?

GIULIANI: I don't have plans yet.

KING: None at all? Writing a book. We know that.


KING: Have you started yet?

GIULIANI: Oh, yeah, but every time -- every time I start to focus on it...

KING: It is a new chapter.

GIULIANI: Yesterday, I was -- going to be with a few people and talk about it. Yesterday went by, today went by. It is amazing.

KING: So, there is nothing concrete in mind. Would you take a federal post if offered?

GIULIANI: I don't know yet. I don't know. I really have to sit down and think about it and...

KING: Will you go out and support candidates if they ask you to come from around the country? They should know...

GIULIANI: Or support their opponents if it helps them more. Sometimes, it helps them.

KING: No, I doubt it in this case. I've already heard people saying they are going to call on you. Do you expect to travel for candidates?

GIULIANI: I did that before, sure. I mean, I enjoy doing that. I'm a Republican. I believe in the Republican party. I have always been a strong supporter of President Bush. And now I'm an even stronger supporter. He is a great president.

KING: Valliant, Oklahoma, we take a call for the mayor -- hello.

CALLER: Hello.

Mr. Giuliani, how do you describe the emotional impact of the last few weeks and has it permanently changed your way of life?

KING: Yes, how has it changed you? We all know that prostate cancer changed you. We've talked about that on this program.

GIULIANI: All these things that happen to you, I don't know if they really change you. They give you more depth. They give you more depth in your understanding of human nature, to understanding the value of life, and how you have to live it.

And -- but I -- I don't feel -- I don't feel like I'm a different person. I mean, I think people perceive me differently, but...

KING: But if enough people keep saying, "God, Rudy -- he's changed."

GIULIANI: I guess, maybe...

KING: They're wrong?

GIULIANI: Maybe I have, I don't know. You are not the best evaluator of yourself. You just grow.


KING: You told me that you had less interest in politics since the illness.

GIULIANI: You see politics differently. You see life differently. I mean, we were talking about the World Series before and you said I was applauding for...

KING: I saw you there.

GIULIANI: ... Arizona at the end of the World Series. Maybe a couple years ago, I would have been like very disappointed. But, the World Series is in perspective after you go through something like the attack on the World Trade Center.

I felt that way with the ball players when I was in the Yankee clubhouse after the game. I had a similar feeling when I was in the Seattle clubhouse after the Yankees had beaten them. There was a -- sure they were disappointed, but I think all those players had it in perspective, even the players that won when I was in the Arizona dugout, that it is a game. It is a great game. It's is a wonderful game. But it's a game. And what happened to the World Trade Center is what is life.

KING: Do you get to a point where you fear the phone ringing, where you start to jump?

GIULIANI: I have though from day one being mayor. I mean, when the phone rings in the middle of night...

KING: Can't be good.

GIULIANI: They never call up and say, "Hey, we just found a surplus in the budget at, you know, 3:00 in the morning. The reality is you know it is going to be a problem. And the person who told me that three days after I was elected mayor was John Lindsey.

I went to lunch with him. He gave me -- he had supported my opponent and called me the day after -- two days after -- he said, "If it would be helpful, I will get together and talk to you about being mayor." I said I would love to.

And I think we developed a very nice relationship as a result of that. And we sat and had a long lunch. And he said, "The worst part of being mayor was when you get the calls in the middle of the night and they are almost always because a police officer has been shot or a firefighter has been burned." And he said it's the worst part of being the mayor of New York City. And he is absolutely right. And sure I go to bed at night, always wondering whether the phone is going to ring. And it never rings for a good reason in the middle of the night.

KING: You going to help the new mayor out?

GIULIANI: Sure, absolutely, Anyway I can. I love this city. I would have helped Mark Green...

KING: Green had won...

GIULIANI: ... if he had won. I saw Mark tonight at the memorial in Washington Heights. And obviously, I will help Michael. Any help that he needs, any assistance, any advice. But he is very well prepared. He has got the right background for the job, at this point in the city's history.

KING: You're meeting Secretary Rumsfeld tomorrow morning?


KING: Early?

GIULIANI: Yes, I think some time around dawn, I think.


KING: Is he coming to just look at the scene?

GIULIANI: I'm sure a number of reasons, yes.

KING: Thank you so much.

GIULIANI: Thank you.

KING: See you tomorrow night.

GIULIANI: Yes, and thank you again, Larry, for doing that. I appreciate it very, very much.

KING: The mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani. What a life. What a career.

Speaking of what a life, Nelson Mandela is next. Don't go away.


KING: It's a great pleasure to welcome a return visit to LARRY KING LIVE with the former president of South Africa and one of the great men of the 20th or any century, Nelson Mandela. He joins us from McLean, Virginia.

Mr. President, I know you have expressed some concern about the continued military action in Afghanistan. Are you calling for it to end soon?

NELSON MANDELA, FORMER PRESIDENT, SOUTH AFRICA: Well, we don't like military action at all, because we are committed to peaceful methods of settling conflicts. But the United States of America has suffered a heavy blow on the 11th of September, when both the World Trade Center and part of the Pentagon was attacked and almost 5,000 people died in the course of that cowardly attack.

That was on the 11th of September, and then they asked the Taliban to hand over bin Laden and his organization in Afghanistan. They refused to do so. The only thing, therefore, the United States of America could do is to launch a military action for the sole purpose of flushing out the terrorists.

Insofar as that limited objective is concerned, they have my unqualified support, because they must be brought to book and they must be accountable for their actions.

So I support the government of the United States insofar as their military action is limited to ensuring that they flush out bin Laden and his terrorists.

I regret that a number of innocent and defenseless civilians have been killed in the process. I regret that very much. And I hope that the military action, which is limited to flushing out the terrorists, would end as soon as possible. And it seems likely, in the light of the progress that is being made by the Northern Alliance that a military action will not last very long when it is limited to flushing out the terrorists.

KING: If information came to light that others were involved, like Iraq, would you favor military action there?

MANDELA: Just repeat that, Larry.

KING: If it were learned by the United States or others that Iraq were somehow involved in the terrorism, would you favor military action against Iraq?

MANDELA: No, certainly not. I would prefer negotiations with Iraq, if it is involved. I wouldn't prefer the extension of the war at all, and I would favor any peaceful method without involvement of the military.

KING: Mr. President, you recently met with King Fahd of Saudi Arabia. There are many questions about how deep Saudi Arabia's support is for the coalition. What can you tell us about that?

MANDELA: Just repeat that, Larry, please.

KING: OK. We know you just met with King Fahd of Saudi Arabia, and there are some questions about how deep Saudi Arabia's commitment to the coalition is. What can you tell us?

MANDELA: Oh, I see. Well, in the first place, when this attack occurred on the 11th of September, the Crown Prince Abdullah, who is now the de facto ruler of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, sent a message of condolence to President George Bush and condemned the attack.

But I don't think that we should expect the kingdom to send troops to Afghanistan, that would be going too far, because Saudi Arabia is the cradle of Islam religion. That is where the holy prophet Mohammed lived and died, and a billion people a year attend prayers in Mecca and in Medina, and it is an impossible situation to expect King Fahd to send troops to Afghanistan.

He is committed to working closely with the United States of America, short of sending troops to Afghanistan, and I think that's a correct policy on their part.

KING: We know how close you are to former President Clinton. What is your assessment of President Bush?

MANDELA: Well, I'm tremendously impressed by President Bush, because many of us expected that he would sideline Africa. But he has taken very courageous steps, because he has met the leading African leaders, like President Mbeki, President Obasanjo and others, to listen to their views and to act in accordance with their views. I have congratulated him for that. And I left away with the impression that we're dealing with a president who was misrepresented. He is doing very well.

I also referred to a statement that was made by President Clinton when he came to South Africa to pay a state visit. He said the United States has been asking a wrong question: What can we do for Africa? He says the correct question was: What can we do with Africa? That was a radical change in the policy of the United States of America, and President George Bush is following that line. And I came out with the impression that the United States of America has got a president who is constructive in his approach, especially in regard to the problems of Africa.

KING: It is always good to see you, Mr. President. Stay in good health, and thank you so much for being with us.

MANDELA: Thank you very much, Larry. I hope to see you in future.

KING: The former president of South Africa, Nelson Mandela. When the look up the word "hero" in the dictionary, you get his picture.

We'll be right back.


KING: Joining us now is Ann Hampton Callaway. She -- we have a closing musical number every night. She starred in "Swing On Broadway", is nominated for a Tony. She wrote this song a day or two after the 11th. What was the inspiration, the 11th?

ANN HAMPTON CALLAWAY, SINGER: Yes. I was very moved by the American flags and it really started to make me feel more proud to be an American than ever, when I saw the generosity of the firemen, the policemen, all the people in New York. I was so moved.

And I started to think about what it means to be a citizen. And I was on my way to the airport and I had to pull over my car to write the song.

KING: She will have a new album coming out early next year, a CD called "Signature." She is an extraordinary talent. Again, flew from Boston to New York the day after the attacks. She has written five songs for Barbara Streisand, does specials on PBS and you get the special now of Ann Hampton Callaway and her own composition, "I believe in America" -- Ann.

CALLAWAY: Thank you.



KING: What a night, huh?

Tomorrow night, Barbara Walters is our special guest, and the musical selection will be offered by Tony Bennett.

Next is NEWSNIGHT with Aaron Brown. He's standing by right over here in our friendly confined studios of New York City. Aaron and NEWSNIGHT are next -- Aaron.




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