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CNN The Point
How Will The U.S. Find Osama bin Laden?; Al Qaeda Manual on Biological Warfare Discovered; U.S. Aid Workers Freed From Afghanistan
Aired November 14, 2001 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN. Taliban supporters, chanting, "We will die for Osama bin Laden," but where is he?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Finding handfuls of people is indeed like finding needles in a haystack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, the spy technology that may help find bin Laden and his followers in their hiding places.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You have to go and get them out or just kill him by other means.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORIST ANALYST: The ability to get inside his network is actually zilch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Flashpoint -- the hunt for bin Laden. Plus, more reasons to find him quickly!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The intelligence material now leaves no doubt whatever of the guilt of Osama bin Laden and his associates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: What else is bin Laden capable of? Tonight, a CNN exclusive! The Al Qaeda terrorism manual's section on chemical and biological warfare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He told me that Osama bin Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri have access to chemical and biological weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: CNN's Mike Boettcher, on the never before seen encyclopedia, 500 pages on bioterrorism.
September 11 shattered their quest to live the American dream.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That building was like so famous and stuff like that. And then my father worked there.
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was a big deal?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
HINOJOSA: You were proud of him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: In a tiny apartment, a now-fatherless family tries to cope. CNN's Maria Hinojosa has their story, up close.
THE POINT. Now from Washington, Greta Van Susteren.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Once again, we are expecting a National Transportation Safety Board briefing this hour on the crash of American Airlines Flight 587. We will bring it to you, live when it happens. But we begin with dramatic proof that the Taliban's hold on Afghanistan is crumbling. Eight western aid workers, including two American women, have now been freed. President Bush is expected to speak from his ranch in Crawford, Texas, about the release as soon as it happens. CNN, of course, will bring that to you. For details about the release though, we now go to CNN's Tom Mintier in Islamabad, Pakistan.
Tom, what's going on?
TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Greta, it's very early in the morning here, but we expect, in the next few minutes, a helicopter to fly over Islamabad with the eight international aid workers aboard it, landing safely in Pakistan after an ordeal that began in August.
Now, word first came out in the middle of the night that there was the possibility that these aid workers would be freed. We reached John Mercer this morning, actually got him out of the shower, and he said he would not believe it until he sees his daughter, Heather Mercer's, face.
Now, they apparently were picked up by Special Forces units after they had been released by the Taliban somewhere around Kabul, put aboard a U.S. Special Forces helicopter and flown directly here to Pakistan where John Mercer, Heather Mercer's father, has been waiting since mid-August. She was detained in Afghanistan as part of Shelter- Now group along with four Germans, two Australians and one other American, a total of eight for allegedly preaching Christianity in an Islamic country.
Their trial had already gotten under way in Kabul, as the military campaign was about to begin. At the last minute, there was an offer apparently by the Taliban possibly to prevent the bombing campaign from starting that they might be willing to free the hostages. So, John Mercer has been on an up and down roller coaster it seems hour by hour here in Pakistan as he waits. He, of course, was in -- early in September 1, there was a mission that went in with representatives from the different embassies and the parents, as this legal process started to move forward. But then on September 11, when the incident happened in New York and Washington, they, of course, left the country and came back here to Pakistan.
A Pakistani attorney was retained and has gone in several times to deal with the court. But the case really took a strong downturn just yesterday when Kabul fell and there was word passed to the parents from the Taliban that in the middle of the night, around midnight, they had all been picked from the house where they were detained, put in the back of pickup truck and were being driven to Kandahar. So that was the last until this morning John Mercer knew the whereabouts of his daughter.
Now, he is probably getting ready to go to this military air base just outside Islamabad to see her face once again. Saying that's when he will believe that it has finally happened, that she's been released. So we've been trying to reach him. We had one phone conversation with him as he was preparing to go and pick up his daughter -- Greta.
VAN SUSTEREN: Tom, I just want to make something clear. Has she been released or -- have the aid workers released or rescued?
MINTIER: Well, the early word was that the Taliban had handed them over; they had surrendered them. So that would indicate release. But the fact of the Special Forces helicopters picked them up and are transported them may be an indication that they never made it from Kabul to Kandahar, that the Taliban who were holding them -- maybe in the middle of the journey decided to stop and turn around and made way back to Kabul area where they were released. They were reportedly picked up around Kabul, put aboard this U.S. Army Special Forces helicopter that is en route to Pakistan right now.
The State Department, in the last few minutes, has confirmed their release and the fact that they're on their way here to Pakistan. We tried to reach someone from the German embassy and really can't get very far with that either. We tried reaching them last night. It was difficult to get through. We were able to leave messages at German embassy. But this morning, we reached someone, the duty officer, who said he was only on duty to deal with emergency cases.
So this operation is probably being led by the Americans because they are in the hands of the Special Forces right now.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, thanks. Tom Mintier reporting from Islamabad, Pakistan.
We're now going to go to the Pentagon where Jamie McIntyre is standing by -- Jaime.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, perhaps I can add a little clarity, Greta, but I'm not sure entirely. It does appear that these eight detainees were rescued in some fashion by forces on the ground, presumably opposition forces. It may be a semantic argument about whether they were released or whether they were forced to be released. But nevertheless, just over three hours ago, three U.S. military Special Operations helicopters landed at a site about 50 miles south west of Kabul, a town called Ghazni in Afghanistan, picked up all eight of the detainees, including the two Americans. And those three helicopters now ferried them to Pakistan.
The latest word we have from the Pentagon is confirmation they are safe in Pakistan, out of Afghan airspace and heading to the base there in Islamabad for reunion with their families. The Pentagon said they seem to be in good physical condition. And Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, in a statement, said simply that the effort "involved many people and several entities," as he put it. He said the U.S. performed the extraction well. The American people can be proud of them. That seems to indicate that the U.S. role in this was simply to get the helicopters in, collect them and bring them safely out -- Greta.
VAN SUSTEREN: Thank you. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.
And joining me now is CNN national security correspondent David Ensor, who's been working on sources about the release of Afghanistan detainees. And David joins me here in Washington.
David, any information whether this was part of some sort of swap with the Taliban?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Knowledgeable U.S. officials that I've spoken to, Greta, say that there was no exchange of prisoners. They say that there was -- they do not believe it would be fair to say the Taliban released this people. As one official put it, they were freed by some folks. He said that further details should emerge in the coming hours. But he wouldn't go into any more detail than that.
Now, let me tell you something else, however. Officials are confirming that yesterday U.S. military aircraft along with military -- with missile-tipped UAVs, unmanned aerial vehicles, attacked a building in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, which was full of senior Al Qaeda personnel. And these officials tell me that, as far as they could tell, there were no survivors. The building destroyed.
Now, these were senior Al Qaeda personnel, according to our sources. Was Osama bin Laden among them? This official said he just couldn't say.
VAN SUSTEREN: When you "senior Al Qaeda persons," do we know, number one, the number of the people? And two, if we don't know if Osama bin Laden was among this group, were some of his very close confidants at least likely to have been there?
ENSOR: The phrase that was used was -- quote "a number" -- unquote of senior Al Qaeda personnel appeared to have been killed in the destruction of this building. Which ones they were, he did not say and they will not say at the moment. But "senior" means senior. It means close to bin Laden if not including. So this is obviously a major development in this war since job one was to get rid of the people who apparently attacked the United States on September 11.
VAN SUSTEREN: And let me ask you one more question. When you say he was handed over by a -- quote -- "some folks," that could mean a military action, could it not in terms of actually rescuing the aid workers or grabbing or freeing them?
ENSOR: It suggests that somebody, perhaps an armed group somehow prevailed upon those who were holding the prisoners, to let them go. But we're just going to have to wait for developments on that.
I do have one other thing to tell you, that people may want to know and that is that officials say that there are now -- you can talk about basically pockets of Taliban resistance in three places -- Konduz in the north, Bagram and Kandahar. And at this point, Taliban support is largely confined to those three places. Officials saying that there is serious fire fight under way in Konduz.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, David Ensor, national security correspondent, thank you for joining me this evening.
President Bush is expected to make a statement about the release of the aid workers. CNN senior White House correspondent John King is with the president in Texas. We'll be hearing from John in a little bit.
Next: find the needle in a haystack, a needle that may have chemical and biological weapons.
ANNOUNCER: Still to come, an exclusive look at the Al Qaeda terror manual's section on chemical and biological weapons.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Al-Zawahiri and bin Laden issued strict orders that they will never be used except in extreme emergency situations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT is coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAIR: The intelligence material now leaves no doubt, whatever of the guilt of Osama bin Laden and his associates. On October 4, we knew that three of the hijackers were linked to the Al Qaeda terrorist network. Now, we know that the majority were. Indeed, the utterances from the Al Qaeda network and from bin Laden's own mouth leaves no doubt. Far from hiding their guilty, they gloat about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: That was British Prime Minister Tony Blair today, updating parliament on the war against terrorism. He also says although there may still be pockets of resistance in Afghanistan, the Taliban -- quote -- "are in total collapse." But Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who toured the ruins of the World Trade Center today, says finding Osama bin Laden will not be easy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: Our task is find the Al Qaeda and the Taliban leadership. And we still have that ahead of us. So we have to be purposeful about that and recognize that that's going to continue to be a difficult task. It is -- finding handfuls of people is indeed like finding needles in a haystack and it's a complicated process. But because of all the pressure that's been put on across the globe, the drying up of bank accounts, the numbers of arrests that have been made, the interrogations that have been held, the intelligence that's been gathered, I think that we have a -- every day, we have a better chance of achieving our goals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: What will it take to find a needle in a haystack? CNN's David Mattingly looks at some of the high and low-tech possibilities.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The occupation of Kabul and other Afghan cities offers new opportunities in finding Osama bin Laden. Combining spy technology now with face-to-face investigation. There's the interrogation of civilians, suspected Taliban collaborators. The search for physical evidence could pinpoint safe houses and hiding places.
U.S. forces also gained access to area airfields, possible staging areas for unmanned intelligence gathering aircraft.
GRANGE: This allows us to provide 24-hour surveillance over areas of interest that we're trying to gather intelligence, for instance, on a location of an Al Qaeda terrorist leader, as an example without endangering pilots.
MATTINGLY: Such information could be vital if bin Laden and his Al Qaeda supporters attempt to vanish into the forbidding Afghan landscape, into rugged mountains and a seemingly vast network of caves and tunnels. Some developed for military use over years of warfare, deep inside mountains, capable of housing troops, storing ammunition, weapons and fuel. Some experts believe with ventilation systems, places that bin Laden could remain well secured and well armed. GRANGE: And even though we have -- we have advanced our bunker busting capability of warheads from air strikes or missiles, some are so deep that you still can't get to them. So there's going to be some complexes that if you know there's someone in it, you have to go in and get them out or just kill them by other means.
MATTINGLY: U.S. forces will rely on what's called MASINT, Measurement and Signatures Intelligence, information from aerial and satellite surveillance that measures surface structures even shadows to detect activity and determine targets.
MASINT can measure heat and other emissions, making caves easier to spot, as the weather gets colder, helping troops figure out which are occupied and what's inside.
GRANGE: It's just another means to give you some indicators on the intelligence picture. When you combine that with human intelligence and signal intercept -- you know, signal intelligence, you really can put together a pretty good picture.
MATTINGLY (on-camera): But such technological advantages so far have failed to pinpoint bin Laden. Experts say he only travels at night, never stays in one location and no longer uses radio or satellite telephones that could give away his position. More and more success relies on the human element, physically tracking him down, which remains the biggest challenge.
BERGEN: I think the ability to get inside his network is essentially zilch because the people around bin Laden have know each other for years. They fought together for a long time. It's not easy to penetrate. It's not easy to put a spy inside that network.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): But bin Laden does want to be heard. Taped video statements to the Al Jazeera network are delivered by a string of couriers. So secretive it could be impossible for intelligence operatives to retrace their steps.
The only outside contact has been with a Pakistani journalist.
HAMID MIR, PAKISTANI JOURNALIST: He was much confident and he was very relaxed.
MATTINGLY: A case of extraordinary access.
BERGEN: It showed quite a lot of confidence. He was allowing somebody from outside the inner circle to come in and actually see him. It was a rather negative thing; you can read into the fact that he allowed this interview to happen. I think that he -- bin Laden has sort of decided to die in this present conflict. In fact, he's made statements toward -- to that affect.
MATTINGLY: But when and where? There is some speculation bin Laden has left the country. But Pakistani officials believe bin Laden is on the run still in Afghanistan, possibly near the city of Kandahar.
And at this stage, it's the question of how the hunt for bin Laden might end that worries observers most.
BERGEN: At a certain point, inevitably, he will be pulled. The question is at what kind of timeframe that is and does he have some kind of nasty surprise in store for whatever kind of Northern Alliance, U.S. ground forces go after him.
MATTINGLY: That surprise could be a weapon of mass destruction, chemical, biological or nuclear in nature that bin Laden now claims to possess.
David Mattingly, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAN SUSTEREN: Can the U.S. actually find Osama bin Laden and how many lives should put at risk to smoke him out of his caves?
Tonight's Flashpoint, the hunt for bin Laden. In Toronto is journalist and author Eric Margolis. His book, "War at The Top of The World" is about the struggle for Afghanistan, Kashmir and Tibet.
Ben Barber has lived in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. He is now the State Department correspondent for the "Washington Times." He's in our Washington bureau. And in Chicago, is Retired General David Grange. He served with the Rangers and the Green Berets, and is now a CNN military analyst.
General, first to you, is finding bin Laden like looking for needle in a haystack?
GRANGE: Well, I believe so, but I think of all the pressure that's been put on the Al Qaeda and the hard-core Taliban right now by the Northern Alliance and coalition air strikes, I think he's going to make some mistakes. They're starting to move people around a little bit now. You heard about the unmanned air vehicle possibly taking out a building with advisers or the cadre of bin Laden. So he'll make some mistakes and it'll make it easier to get him.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ben, the General just referred to David Ensor's report about the fact that CNN's reporting, as David has learned, that senior Al Qaeda personnel have been killed. Does that make a difference in the hunt for Osama bin Laden, do you think and why?
BEN BARBER, "WASHINGTON TIMES": I think it does. And I think the reason it does is that the confidence that the Afghan people are going to have in bin Laden is disappearing. And because he's a guy that's on the run and his promise, in a sense, to stave off the westerners and the infidels has basically collapsed. His supporters are on the run. I think he's going to be seen as vulnerable. And when you're vulnerable, there are people who know where these caves are. There are people who know which route this videotape took from the mountains to get to the Pakistani journalist. And I think these people are going to be coming forward.
VAN SUSTEREN: Eric, it seems to me that, you know, in light of the news that the senior Al Qaeda -- we don't know how many -- were killed. It seems to me that and the fact that the resources are being frozen around the world, that the Taliban is in retreat, that Osama bin Laden is certainly on the run. And it looks much more favorable to the United States military action and more likely to get him now. Do you agree?
ERIC MARGOLIS, JOURNALIST/AUTHOR: Yes, I do, Greta. The net IS clearly closing on him. He has less and less territory in which to hide, though it is very rugged territory. And I've just gotten news from Pakistan today, from sources close to the Taliban, that bin Laden has said that he will not be taken alive by the Americans or the Afghan Northern Alliance and that he will go down fighting.
Interestingly enough, he has advised and the Taliban's Mullah Omar, its leader, has also told his troops to cross the border into Pakistan. You know, the border areas of Pakistan, the northwest frontier provinces entirely Pashtun, the same people as in southern Afghanistan. And this is where the Taliban originally came from. And he's told them to cross the border and start waging guerrilla warfare from inside the sea of friendly tribes people there.
And so there may be a chance that bin Laden could try and slip across the border. But at six-feet-four tall and the most infamous man in world, I don't know how well he'll do.
VAN SUSTEREN: General, while we hear so much about bin Laden hiding in caves and Eric makes reference to the fact that maybe he could be headed over a border. But if he's in those caves in Afghanistan, what about those bunker-busting bombs? Can -- are those any good? Would they be effective?
GRANGE: Well, I think they'll be effective on some of the hiding sights. But I believe that the depth and the sophistication of the probable hiding caves that he's using and structures that it'll take people to go in to get him out. And it wouldn't surprise me if he had some kind of a -- he has a death wish obviously, at this time, as a possible martyr in his own eyes, that he would do something extraordinary as he was being taken out.
VAN SUSTEREN: General, what is a bunker-busting bomb?
GRANGE: Well, just either a -- for instance, munitions from an aircraft that has penetration capability to go through the crust of the earth or concrete and then explode in deeper depths within the bunker itself before it explodes.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ben, you've lived in Afghanistan, have you been in any of these caves? Or can you give us any guidance on this?
BARBER: Actually, I didn't get into some caves there. But I've been across the countryside and I've been in Kandahar and the areas around it. I think that what was previously mentioned is indeed a threat, is that the Al Qaeda people are going to go into these areas of Pakistan that are Pashtun. And indeed, they could go into the refugee camps. And in these camps, Pakistan, which has always had a very important role to play in Afghanistan, could keep these people as a kind of a card that they want to play to threaten the Northern Alliance not to make any decision, not to form any government that does not meet their approval.
VAN SUSTEREN: Eric, in the 30 seconds we have left, what do you for see in the light of fact -- at least in the most recent news, the aid workers have been released and the senior Al Qaeda officials have been killed?
MARGOLIS: Good news, good news, but the problem is we've replaced an ugly government in Kabul with one that's equally ugly, maybe even worse -- drug dealers and former Communist generals. And they are really a proxy force for the Russians. So the price of throwing out the Taliban has been to deliver a good part of Afghanistan over to Russian control. Quite an irony.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, gentlemen, thank you very much. Eric Margolis, Ben Barber and General David Grange.
Next, what Al Qaeda's terror manual says about chemical and biological weapons. Our exclusive report when THE POINT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda followers may be in hiding, but something besides people may be lurking in their caves. Tonight, the result of a CNN special investigation, our Mike Boettcher reports on what may be the most dangerous challenge ever confronted by a U.S. military operation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the west bank of the Kabul River, eight miles outside Jalalabad, seven camps once formed the heart of Al Qaeda's terrorist training. They are now believed, by spies who have been monitoring those camps, to be mostly abandoned. After September 11, CNN has learned large trucks were seen coming and going from the complex, presumed to be moving equipment to new, unknown locations. One camp in particular caught the eye of the intelligence agencies in the anti-terror coalition. It is called Abu Khabab, after the Egyptian chemical, biological weapons expert who directs it.
Nestled on a hilltop, coalition intelligence sources tell CNN, it was Osama bin Laden's main chem-bio training facility. And CNN has learned Al Qaeda had some new equipment with which to work, at least six new laboratories, replete with equipment like this, that could be used to make chemical and biological weapons. Three labs were purchased earlier this year by the Wafa humanitarian organization, which the U.S. Treasury Department lists as an Al Qaeda front. The laboratory equipment was shipped from the United Arab Emirates to Afghanistan, according to the coalition intelligence agency that discovered the transaction.
A second Al Qaeda acquisition of sophisticated scientific equipment took place in 1999, according to the same sources. In that transaction, three labs were purchased from the Ukraine and sent to Afghanistan.
Professor Magnus Ranstorp is a director of the world-renowned counterterrorism center located at Scotland's St. Andrews University.
PROFESSOR MAGNUS RANSTORP, ST. ANDREWS UNIVERSITY: I am quite surprised at the nature and scale and scope of that intensified activity that has gone on silently, without any efforts by intelligence agencies to try to stop the technology transfer or the acquisition of these type of agents.
BOETTCHER: And it wasn't just equipment that Al Qaeda acquired. Expertise was accumulated and disseminated, too.
The extent of Al Qaeda's operational knowledge was once contained in these, the never-before-seen, 10-volume "Encyclopedia of Afghan Resistance," which the intelligence service of an anti-terrorism coalition partner allowed CNN to videotape.
And the forward to each volume, this -- "To the beloved brother, Osama bin Laden, who fought in Afghanistan with his soul and his money, who still resists there and presses forward with the Jihad until now."
Inside, platitudes give way to precise instruction in a variety of lethal techniques: "Killing From Close Range," the title of one, with a section on ambushes, complete with diagrams.
Another volume is called, "Bombs and Landmines." The explosives volume contains directions on how to set detonators into blocks of TNT and plastic explosives. Since the mid 1990s, the encyclopedia of jihad has been the guidebook for al Qaeda operations. But now, CNN has learned, a new, even more frightening volume has been added to the collection.
The recently published 11th book in the collection distributed on CD-Rom to al Qaeda cells, is a how-to manual for chemical and biological terrorism. CNN was permitted by an intelligence agency that intercepted the volume to inspect the entire, almost 500-page document and was given three chapters of the manual in order to prove its existence.
It is currently being analyzed by Western intelligence agencies. It's not known how many copies of the CD were produced. Precise deadly formulas pack with new volume. All can be made from ingredients readily available to the public.
For example, a chapter entitled "Purifying Manure" describes a clear-cut goal: "to acquire pure forms of ammonium nitrate without any foreign substances in order to prepare RDX, a powerful explosive compound."
"The Poisonous Letter" is the title of one section on poison inks. "Write a letter to the victim mentioning very exciting and very interesting news," it reads. "Wipe the envelope from the inside with Silicone sealant," it goes on, "so it would not kill the mailman."
In the chapter called "Science of Explosives," precise chemical formulas are followed by step-by-step instructions in the manufacture of lethal weapons of mass destruction. Biological warfare sections of the new volume give exact formulas for the production of deadly toxins, Botulinum and Ricin.
But there was no evidence of instructions on how to make or distribute anthrax. Osama bin Laden, according to other secret U.S. intelligence documents obtained by CNN, ordered his top lieutenants in 1997 to launch a comprehensive effort to obtain chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. U.S. and regional intelligence agencies believe al Qaeda has achieved some of those goals.
On April 19, 1999, in a chaotic Egyptian courtroom, the partial success of that effort was revealed by a top al Qaeda operative, Ahmed Salamah Mabrouk, who had been charged in a terrorism conspiracy. Before his sentencing hearing, he spoke to a respected Egyptian reporter, Mohamad Salah, considered to be his country's top al Qaeda expert. Through the caged-in section of the courtroom, where defendants are kept, he admitted al Qaeda's success in obtaining chemical and biological weapons.
MOHAMAD SALAH, AL HAYAT NEWSPAPER: He told me told me that Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri have access to chemical and biological weapons. He didn't specify the nature of those weapons. He didn't say, for example, it was anthrax or anything else. So I asked him how did they get that? So he said they have got them from countries in Eastern Europe.
He also said that these chemical and biological weapons are already in the possession of some of the members of the organization, but al-Zawahiri and bin Laden issued strict orders that they will never be used except in extreme emergency situations.
BOETTCHER: In 1999, Mabrouk's boast passed virtually unnoticed. Now two years later, it is another important piece of evidence that, combined with recently discovered scientific manuals and laboratory purchases, points to the strong potential of a bin Laden dream realized, the capability to wage war using weapons of mass destruction.
Mike Boettcher, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAN SUSTEREN: Before I get to my discussion with my experts on Osama bin Laden and biological and chemical weapons, let's go to Crawford, Texas where CNN's John King is standing by -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Greta, just moments ago, President Bush speaking to reporters at the ranch in Crawford, Texas. We will have the videotape of that shortly, but the President calling what he calls the rescue of these eight aide workers, two of them Americans in Afghanistan, the President twice called it a rescue. And he's calling this incredibly good news, saying he's proud of the military, saying that those workers, as we have reported, are now safe on the ground in Pakistan.
No details, no firm details from the President. He referred questions to the Defense Department, but he did say that this operation was "facilitated on the ground." He would not say by who or whether these were CIA or U.S. intelligence sources on the ground or whether they were Northern Alliance forces or other forces from within Afghanistan.
But the President saying he is incredibly proud of the military. He says it is great news that those aide workers, the two Americans, will be home for Thanksgiving or at least reunited with their families for Thanksgiving.
And again, the President at one point said he was worried when those aide workers were moved from Kabul, that they would be taken to a building that might be a target of the U.S. military. He said he is grateful to find out now they are free. And again, the President twice using the term "rescue." U.S. special forces helicopters picking up those eight humanitarian aide workers, flying them from southwest of Kabul inside Afghanistan, now to safety and freedom in Pakistan -- Greta.
VAN SUSTEREN: John, did you get the feeling that this was a planned military operation or rescue or did they take advantage of opportunity that was presented?
KING: That is what we do not know. We know that the President approved this operation. So certainly there was some planning of it. How much time they had, how much of a tip they received from those sources on the ground. The President, again, calling them facilitators or saying this operation was facilitated. Just exactly how much notice they had, how much time they had to organize this, we simply just don't know at this point, but we know it was a U.S. military special forces operation.
And again without naming who helped out on the ground, the President saying it was facilitated from somebody on the ground inside Afghanistan. And again twice, the President using the words rescue to describe the operation. More details we will pursue from administration officials here in Texas, where the President is on his ranch.
The President himself referring questions to the Pentagon. We'll keep checking. Details very sketchy. And there's good reason for that. Perhaps other covert operations underway. The United States doesn't want to say much about how it gets its information inside Afghanistan or how it moves its troops around.
VAN SUSTEREN: John, thank you very much. John King from Crawford, Texas.
I'm joined again by our national security correspondent, David Ensor.
David, you're following this story. Do you have some more to report?
ENSOR: Yes. We understand from our colleague, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, that officials there are now saying that in fact, the aide workers were released by the Taliban personnel they were with to a non-governmental organization, an NGO, from which they were picked up by the U.S. military.
Now I spoke earlier to U.S. officials who had said there was no exchange, no exchange of prisoners that got them freed. And we were given the impression, at least, that if they were released by the Taliban, they were released under some sort of pressure. It may be that these Taliban individuals realized that they -- that it might be the better part of valor, might be safer for them to release these prisoners.
In any case, that is apparently what has happened, according to Pentagon sources speaking to our Jamie McIntyre.
I should probably also mention the news about the building that we have heard. U.S. officials tell us that yesterday, U.S. military aircraft and a missile tipped UAV, unmanned aerial vehicle, attacked a building in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan in which U.S. officials believe a number of senior al Qaeda officials were.
And as far as they know, there were no survivors from the attack. Now who these individuals were, we do not know. Was Osama bin Laden among them? We don't know that either, but they were senior al Qaeda individuals, according to the officials I have spoken to.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, David Ensor, thanks very much.
How do you have an opponent who's willing to use chemical and biological weapons? More by bin Laden's rules when THE POINT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: If Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda really have chemical and biological weapons, and they are willing to use them, how do you fight it? Let's ask my guests.
Ronald Atlas is president-elect of the American Society for Microbiology. He joins us from Louisville, Kentucky. Graham Allison is in our Boston bureau. He's the director of Harvard University's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs. And Leonard Cole is in New York. He's a political science professor at Rutgers University. And he's the author of the book "The 11th Plague: the politics of biological and chemical warfare."
Ron, first to you. In Mike Boettcher's exclusive report, we've learned that Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network has a CD-Rom. It's a how-to on chemical and biological weapons. Are you surprised to hear that the al Qaeda network might have a how-to, as it relates to biological, chemical warfare and putting it out on CD?
RONALD ATLAS, PRESIDENT-ELECT, AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR MICROBIOLOGY: No, I'm not really surprised by that. I think that many of us have expected that terrorist organizations would be acquiring biological weapons. We've seen a preparation for that. So no, that's not surprising. The only thing that does surprise me in your report is the specific instructions on envelopes. That comes as a bit of surprise that they were, in fact, thinking about mailing biological weapons. And the question then is, does that hint at a link to the current anthrax attack in the United States?
VAN SUSTEREN: You know what's interesting though Ronald, that I thought about that part of Mike Boettcher's report, is that it was a recommendation to put some sort of sealant in it, so that nothing would leak out of the envelope, which is a little different at least at this ongoing investigation of anthrax here in the United States might suggest that if it is al Qaeda related, they're not following that direction. Do you agree or disagree?
ATLAS: Well, I think what surprises me is that they knew that spores would leak out of an envelope where the biological agents would come out. I said didn't know that before. We saw the events at Brentwood and elsewhere.
So the fact that they knew that, prepared that, assuming that manual was prepared prior to October of this year, then in fact, it does hint that someone could have used it to intentionally release spores in the way that they did.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, I'm going to interrupt for one second. The National Transportation Safety Board is briefing reporters about the crash of American Airlines flight 587. Let's listen.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
MARION BLAKEY, NTSB CHAIRWOMAN: But I'd like to start by just clarifying one thing that came up earlier, because we had just learned, as you know, that American Airlines is sending out special inspection teams. And several of you asked for more details.
What we've learned about that is the following. American is sending initially two teams, one to Miami and one to Tulsa, Oklahoma. And there, they are going to develop the specifics of the inspection protocol, based upon those two situations. And they will, after that, pull it together for the rest of the fleet.
The FAA is participating in both sites. And we expect, as a result of that, that we will have a better sense of exactly what they are going to be doing in every case with each one of the aircraft after those two teams have done their work. So that's underway right now.
The other things that we'd like to tell you about in specific do come from some new information from the cockpit voice recorder, a little bit of information we have already been able to obtain from the flight data recorder. We'll do a much fuller briefing on that tomorrow. And I'd like to ask member George Black to tell you about the specifics from the progress meeting -- George.
GEORGE BLACK, NTSB MEMBER: Thank you. Good evening.
Again, I'll -- just if you'll excuse me, I'll read from this. That's the surest way to get it right.
The -- someone's device is buzzing up here. Does to mean anything to you? OK. (LAUGHTER)
OK, just checking.
The operations group met today. They went to the site, where the log book for the airplane, the maintenance log book, had been found for the airplane. The book is readable. Unfortunately, it is contaminated. But they were able to, with clean equipment, to read through it enough to find that the airplane had been -- all three hydraulic systems had been serviced recently and that just means top off of fluid.
There were no major entries. There were no open items. In other words, there were no delayed discrepancy maintenance items in the log book. We are having that log book cleaned up and will ultimately -- copy given to the FBI and will become a part of our record.
They are also continuing interviews. They are going to be talking to some of the people who are witnesses. And that is ongoing. The witness group also is working in the same area. They finished today reviewing the FBI and NYPD and Port Authority police interviews. Some of those people are going to be re-interviewed or already have been.
And they also found there might be a video from one of the bridge authority sites. I don't know which one. That might show the airplane in wide angle. In other words, a small image. And they're trying to secure that video. That would probably be a surveillance video, if I understand it correctly.
The structures group is basically -- got most of the large pieces en route today. They're moving some of the larger pieces tonight. They are moving these to the hangar. And they have two or three more days of cleanup on the site and hope to be out of the area. The engine pylons will be removed from the engines at the hangar at JFK. The engines will go on to Tucson. And after a more thorough inspection than they could make on-site and then the pylons...Tulsa, I'm sorry. Somewhere down there.
(LAUGHTER)
And the pylons will then go to the hangars, where the parts are, for our materials people to look at.
And I'm skipping over some groups, mainly because you probably wouldn't want to hear what they had to say, because just basically we moved parts around. We need more hangar space, whatever.
The engines have been moved, as I mentioned earlier, in the other group. And no further examination of them has been made, but it will be. Air traffic control, now all of the controllers who interacted with this airplane have been interviewed. We checked the sidelines. None of the controllers in the towers said they saw the accidents. We looked at the sidelines and that's probably reasonable that they didn't see it because of the way the tower cab is configured. They had -- there was an unidentified airplane, that on the ground control frequency I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that basically called out the event as it occurred. There was some confusion about its call sign. They now know who that is and they're trying to track that airplane down. I believe it was a business jet. And they'll find that airplane and we'll interview them.
Weather data was basically nothing, other than acquiring additional information. I would like to now read the -- we call them bullets because they have a little dot in front of them in Powerpoint from the CVR additional information.
I mentioned that there could be, or we mentioned I guess, that there could be spectrum analysis done on the cockpit voice recording. One of the things that we were interested in before we got the FDR data, which is in process now, was the engines, whether the engines were running at certain points. And the bullet we received was that the engine signatures extend past the start of the loss of control event.
So in other words, at the point where the pilots expressed some difficulty in that general timeframe, the engines were still running. And again, that's because you can look at the sound spectrum, the frequencies of sound until you can actually pick out the revolutions, the speed of the engines from this information.
The data recorder is a good one, which means it is good data, not noisy data. It has about 81 hours of data onboard. This is not unusual. Sometimes you get even more than that, but that's a good wealth of data.
And they're between 200 and 300 parameters. We'll know more about that in a little while. The FDR data continues past the start of the upset event, but ends before impact. That was sent to us.
A bit on another group that has not been with us up here. And that's not unusual. They usually go to where the maintenance records are. And that is the maintenance records group. They are in Tulsa, have been there for a while and made an initial review of the records. Mostly, maintenance review documents. In other words, summary documents, spreadsheets about individual airplanes. So you can tell what's been done recently to them. And there will be more on that later.
They did point out that these fittings that hold the fin onto fuselage are inspected every five years. And the last inspection apparently for this airplane was in December of 1999.
Another item, that is of some interest, is that in 1988, prior to delivery of this airplane, this airplane was delivered sometime in May or June of 1988 to American, the left center fitting, that's of the six fittings that hold major fittings that hold the fin onto the fuselage, the left center fitting, was found to be delaminated. It was repaired by the manufacturer. We don't know whether that was Airbus or a subcontractor. And this repair was done by what's called doublers. In other words, they increased the thickness of the fitting and then reinforced it with rivets to hold the fitting together. It was released with a specification of no additional special inspections being needed. And that was specified by the manufacturer. Again, we don't know who that was.
Madame chairman, that's all I have.
BLAKEY: That's fine. Do you have questions for member Black on any aspect?
BLACK: Yes, sir?
QUESTION: Could you talk a little bit about the spectral analysis and whether you have learned anymore about the sounds that are heard before and after their comments about wake turbulence and whether they're consistent with anything else that you heard before?
BLACK: The cockpit voice recording group is working in Washington. And these were just comments that were picked by the office director to the two office directors for research and engineering and aviation and were sent along to us. I really don't know anything else about analysis. That's going on and probably will be going on for several more days, if it's like most cockpit voice recording groups. So no, I do not have more information.
VAN SUSTEREN: We've been listening to the NTSB report on flight 587. The headlines from that report is the log book for maintenance has been fond. No major entries in that log maintenance book. There are no open items, meaning nothing left to be repaired.
Air traffic controllers were interviewed. No one saw the accident. The cockpit voice recorder has been examined in part. And at the time the pilots were talking about some problem with controlling the airplane, the engines were still running.
And then in 1988, prior to delivery of the aircraft to American Airplanes, there was a problem with the left center fitting that holds the tail fin onto the fuselage. It had become what's called delaminated. It was repaired and the plane delivered to American Airlines.
We're going to take a quick break. When come back, we're going to go back to our panel about Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda and bioterrorism. Stay with us.
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VAN SUSTEREN: We have just gotten the tape of President Bush's statement about the U.S. aide workers who have been freed from Afghanistan. Here's what the President had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good evening. Today we've got incredible good news. Our United States military rescued eight humanitarian workers who had been in prison in Afghanistan. I'm really proud of our armed forces. And I'm also thankful for the folks in Afghanistan who helped with this rescue. There have been a lot of people praying for the eight innocent folks.
Particularly interesting, for me since I'm here in Crawford. And two Americans were from Waco. And I know a lot of the Waco citizens have been in deep prayer that they be rescued. And their prayers were answered.
I'm thankful they're safe. I am pleased with the way our military has conducted its operations. And I am glad to report to the American people that this chapter of the Afghan theater has ended in a very positive and constructive way.
QUESTION: Sir, did the rescuers encounter any resistance?
BUSH: You're going to have to talk to the Secretary of Defense about that.
QUESTION: Were they rescued or turned over by the Taliban?
BUSH: Well, I think that Secretary Rumsfeld will be making a statement. We're calling it a rescue. They have been helped by, I know the international Red Cross had been involved. And they were flown to safety by U.S. troops.
QUESTION: Where are they now?
BUSH: They are in Pakistan.
QUESTION: Sir, is it your understanding that this was an operation where they had -- armed forces had to go in and extricate them?
BUSH: No, I think it was -- I don't think it was a mission that -- it was set up, as I understand it. In other words, people on the ground facilitated the ability of our troops to move in, and put them on a chopper and bring them to safety.
I spent a lot of time worrying about all eight, particularly the two young ladies. I was worried about the reports that perhaps the enemy would put them in a house and then, for whatever reason, would encourage that house to get bombed. I was worried for their safety. We had thought of different ways in which we could extricate them from the prison they were in.
There were some people on the ground that helped, including the International Red Cross, and our military responded.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: How soon might you be able to speak to them or see them?
BUSH: I'm not sure. The good news is they'll be home for Thanksgiving and I would, obviously, if they come back to the States, or are in a position where I can call, I'd love to call them and most of all tell their parents that I can imagine how they feel, how thrilled they are that their daughters are safe.
QUESTION: What about the (OFF-MIKE)
BUSH: I am not sure yet. I think we'd have to -- Secretary Rumsfeld's going to brief here in a second.
QUESTION: Was it a handover to U.S. troops, or was it...
BUSH: I think it was -- I don't think -- I think it was -- as I understand it, and again the secretary of defense will be briefing -- the Defense Department will be briefing -- that it was a facilitated rescue. In other words, there were people -- and I say rescue because it's a very unstable part of the world still, obviously. And you never know what the Taliban is going to do.
They first and foremost detained these people against their will and imprisoned them. And I was deeply concerned for their safety.
But the really incredibly positive news is that, thanks to help on the ground, and thanks to our U.S. military, they're now safe in Pakistan.
QUESTION: Have the...
BUSH: I got to go to dinner with my guests. I've got my guest. You're going to have to talk to the secretary of defense.
QUESTION: Should the Taliban surrender now?
BUSH: It's up to the Taliban to make that decision, but we're not going to end our mission until we accomplish the mission, and the mission is Al Qaeda and terrorists and terrorist training camps.
One of the things I said in front of Congress was that one of the conditions were that these humanitarian aid workers be turned over. That part of the mission is complete.
We still want Al Qaeda, and we want to make sure that Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist activity. That has yet to be accomplished. In the meantime, we're making substantial gains on the ground. But this is -- as I told the American people, this could take a while. And I'm patient, and I'm steady, and our military is -- and our troops on the ground are on the hunt to accomplish the objective. And we will stay there until we do accomplish the objective.
Thank you all. I've got to go have dinner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: Aaron Brown will have the latest on the aid workers as well as the death of the senior al Qaeda people 10:00 on NEWSNIGHT.
And Larry King starts right now.
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