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CNN The Point

Hunt for Bin Laden: Is the Net Closing In?

Aired November 20, 2001 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT: "Tracking the Terrorists."

Hunting for the world's most-wanted man.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I have the authority, which I will use to authorize an award of up to $25 million for the capture of Osama bin Laden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The money is waiting. "Flashpoint": Is the net closing in?

Terrorists everywhere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Many of these people were dormant agents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, from Spain to Italy, Europe cracks down on terror cells.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They were not doing anything strange in Italy, but they were preparing for attacks abroad.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There has been a good deal of communication between al Qaeda and terrorists in Iraq and the Philippines

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: "Flashpoint": Is Iraq next? Single again but not by choice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What is going on for you being here, noisy bar?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's good to be around people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: CNN's Maria Hinojosa, up close with a 34 year-old widow, rebuilding her life.

Substituting for Greta Van Susteren from New York, Willow Bay.

WILLOW BAY, CNN ANCHOR: New anthrax worries on Capitol Hill. And now, a Connecticut woman is critically ill with what appears to be inhalation anthrax.

CNN national correspondent Eileen O'Connor is in Washington with the latest developments. Hello, Eileen.

EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Willow.

They are conducting more tests, apparently a woman 90 years-old checked into a hospital in Connecticut this week, and authorities decided to test her for anthrax. Her symptoms were pneumonia-like symptoms. Preliminary tests at the hospital and by public health officials in Connecticut were positive for anthrax, so they called in the CDC, the FBI and the Connecticut State Police. The police and the FBI have sealed off women's home, and they are awaiting the results of the CDC. A team is actually flying into Connecticut this evening. FBI officials said, from there on they will determine if the woman has anthrax, then they will go forward with a more complete investigation.

Right now the Health and Human Services secretary, Tommy Thompson, has said, that investigators are leaning more toward the theory that the source of this anthrax is a domestic terrorist, an individual or persons with a grudge related to some kind of domestic political grudge. The attorney general, though, John Ashcroft, declined to comment on that but he did say that a profile that had been made by FBI profilers based on the letters that have been sent, indicating the person was likely an adult male, someone interested in science, someone who holds a grudge, probably a loner, someone who doesn't like confrontation. That profile released to the public has led them to some new leads.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The FBI recently released a profile, which indicated the kind of person, person talented in chemistry, familiar with Trenton, New Jersey area, person who tends to be a loner. There are other characteristics, since we have released that profile we have been the recipients of a number of tips. We believe that they are valuable. We are following them up. And while we can't say with any conclusive sense of finality that this is a domestic setting, the kind of profile that's been indicated, and the kind of tips we are getting would tend to lead us in that direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP) O'CONNOR: Now, the letter to Senator Patrick Leahy is of considerable interest to investigators. They say that the envelopes, of course nearly identical, and sources say that they are waiting to see the contents inside that letter. They do believe, though, that the anthrax inside that letter, from preliminary tests is just as lethal as the anthrax that was found in the letters sent to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle.

Also, investigators say some environmental samples taken on a Capitol Hill indicate two more places, offices of Senator Kennedy and Senator Dodd have tested positive for traces of anthrax -- Willow.

BAY: Eileen, last night we heard that investigators still hadn't gotten to the contents of that letter, what are we waiting for?

O'CONNOR: Well, what they have done is they're actually scientifically trying to develop a protocol to really save the evidence. One of the problems they've had is that some of these letters having been opened, had dispersed the contents, the anthrax out of the envelope. And it's hampered the investigation, because it hasn't given them, in some cases, big enough samples to do the kinds of really conclusive chemical and scientific testing that they would like to do in order to find the exact source of this anthrax. One of the things they are trying to do is really develop a method, if you will, that will preserve the most evidence.

They do believe that it's very likely the contents of the letter, the wording will be exactly the same as that of the Daschle letter, because the envelope itself was the same. And the two media letters that were sent out to the "New York Post" and NBC were in fact computer-generated copies of each other.

BAY: Eileen O'Connor in Washington, thanks for that update.

Well, up next, the hunt for Osama bin Laden. The U.S. believes he is still in Afghanistan, and quoting a senior administration official, that is a well informed guess. Now comes the hard part, that same official tells CNN that pinpointing bin Laden's exact location at any one moment is an elusive goal. That's why the U.S. is offering Afghans a bundle of money to find him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POWELL: Congress has authorized an award program to capture Osama bin Laden and his associates, and the authorities for that program is vested in the Department of State and the secretary of state. And I have the authority, which I will use to authorize an award of up to $25 million for the capture of Osama bin Laden. And the legal paper work is being accomplished, but that will be our position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BAY: Even by U.S. standards of living, $25 million is a lot of money. Just imagine what it would mean to someone living in Afghanistan. But is money enough of a temptation? "Flashpoint": Is the net closing in? Joining us now are two men who know about the deadly games of hide-and-seek in that part of the world. Journalist Eric Margolis, he is in Toronto. He is the author of "War at the Top of the World: The struggle for Afghanistan, Kashmir and Tibet." Also joining us, Ben Barber of the "Washington Times." Gentlemen, thank you for joining us tonight. Let me begin with this basic question, is the net closing in?

ERIC MARGOLIS, AUTHOR: Should I jump in first?

BAY: Please.

BEN BARBER, "WASHINGTON TIMES": Go ahead.

MARGOLIS: Well, yes, the net clearly is, in fact they are narrowing by the hour the search area in which they believe bin Laden is, which is around the region of Kandahar and in the area of the Hindu Kush to the north of this important city. But having done that, they have also bribed local tribesmen and they've issued this reward.

The U.S. is spending a billion dollars a day to attack Afghanistan. It might have just offered this $25 million award beforehand and seen what kind of results had turned up. It's a fortune in Afghanistan. And obviously bin Laden is being cornered, and his options are running out.

BAY: Before we get to the issue of the reward money, Ben, do you agree that the U.S.'s educated guess is correct?

BARBER: I think there's once again there is trapdoor that he's got, an escape route, which is going to be impossible to close, and that is through the tribal areas of Pakistan. These are areas which have never been under the control of the Pakistani government, and it would be very easy for bin Laden if he can move, to travel across the border into the areas where the Pashtun tribesmen may very well protect him. And then there would be the uncomfortable situation of, does the United States attack Pakistan? Do U.S. troops go in with Pakistani troops?

MARGOLIS: I would like to add something to that, too.

BAY: Go ahead.

MARGOLIS: I've covered this whole area extensively, of the tribal territories which are really barely under the control of the Pakistani government. They have a few forts and a few regiments of scouts in the area, but it's really no man's land under the Pashtun tribes, and there are many passages out that can be crossed by a small number of men. The Pakistani army and rangers are guarding the main road routes, but there's quite a bit of infiltration across the border and it is Pashtun territory.

BAY: So Eric, what are the odds that he has -- or can make it across into that Pashtun territory?

MARGOLIS: Well, the odds were good particularly if he had left a few days ago or a week ago. And there are said to be doubles and maybe there's a double in Afghanistan, and he's left. But I tell you my gut feeling, from having watched this man for a long time is that he's a religious figure he has said, on repeated occasions, that he's ready to become Shaheed, or to be a martyr for his beliefs and that he is going to probably die in Afghanistan. He doesn't seem like a man who runs, but if I were in his place I would have been across the border into Pakistan wrapped up in a rug in the back of a truck.

BAY: Any other places, any other options where bin Laden --

BARBER: Yes, clearly, assuming that he can get into the tribal areas, there is no place he can't go.

BAY: What about Iraq?

BARBER: It's unlikely that he would go to Iraq, because the dictator of Iraq is a secular guy -- secular man who has no patience with Islamic fundamentalists, Saddam Hussein. So what's more likely is that he will go from there to some place like the northern part of Yemen, where he came from and his family is, or southern Saudi Arabia. Somalia has been mentioned.

There are areas in Kashmir, which is very close and there are lot of sympathizers of bin Laden in Pakistan, who would get him there. But I have agree with Eric, that he is a guy who probably has a death wish -- and may be ready to go down fighting inside of Afghanistan.

MARGOLIS: I would like to say the last time he fled Afghanistan was onboard the private jet of a Saudi prince who took him out. But this time the Americans are all over place looking for him with drones and surveillance and wherever he goes he is going to be a wanted man and enormous pressure and misery will come down on whatever government that shelters him.

BAY: Right, so in other words, probably not too many Saudi princes offering you their jets and a ride out of Afghanistan at this moment?

MARGOLIS: I don't think so.

BAY: What about the reward money? Ben, you mentioned that a few moments ago. Is it likely to be effective? Is it likely to lead to information that results in the capture of bin Laden?

BARBER: It's entirely possible. But as we have seen with the behavior of the Taliban, they prefer to have their whole country bombed than give up a guy that they were committed too as a sort of quasi-guest relationship, so if...

BAY: So, therefore it won't be terribly effective, you don't think?

BARBER: Actually, it might not be. It might be something, look, at the State Department they have been giving out match books offering $5 million for Osama bin Laden for the past six years -- or four years -- and that hasn't worked. MARGOLIS: That's correct. And the Taliban was offered a lot of money by the United States government to hand him over too, and by the Pakistanis. So, I agree. But on the other hand, there are all kinds of other individual tribal chieftains in the area who would love to make the money and betrayal for money is the standard operating procedure for Afghan warfare. I think there are a lot of people looking for him tonight.

BAY: Real quickly, if you were leading the hunt for him, what would you be doing right you now?

BARBER: I think I...

BAY: That is a tough one, I guess.

BARBER: ... exactly what the United States is doing. Perhaps more along the border with the tribal areas, sort of planting your flag there and moving westward, to sort of to try to put a net to prevent him from escaping into Pakistan. But that is a huge border and you'd need thousands of troops.

BAY: Ben Barber, Eric Margolis, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We appreciate it.

Osama bin Laden may be hiding in Afghanistan, but his al Qaeda followers are scattered around the globe. Tonight, we're taking you to two countries that have discovered terrorist cells within their borders. We begin in Madrid with CNN bureau chief Al Goodman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AL GOODMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Police say this man was the leader of an Islamic terrorist cell in Spain. His name, Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas. Police say he was leading a double life. He lived here, in this apartment building, where he was also arrested.

Born in Syria, Yarkas married a Spaniard. He drove their children to school at this Madrid mosque and reportedly sold used cars for a living. But a court order that imprisoned him and seven others Sunday, said his real job was working for Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network.

(on camera): It turns out Spanish police have been following Yarkas for years. But it wasn't until after September 11 that the authorities began to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

(voice-over): Despite a modest income, Yarkas, also known as Abu Dahdah, was a frequent flier. The court said he made dozens of trips abroad in recent years to meet Islamic militants. In Germany, he had contact with Mohamed Atta, whom the FBI says was the lynchpin of the September 11 attacks and one of the suicide hijackers.

Atta was in Spain twice this year, but police have not said if Atta met Yarkas here. Another Yarkas contact, Said Bahaji, who knew Atta and is accused by the German government of helping to organize the September 11 attacks. Bahaji is believed to be on the run, perhaps in Afghanistan, but the court said his personal agenda, recently found, contains Yarkas' old phone number in Madrid.

Yarkas made more than 20 trips to Britain alone. There, the court says, Yarkas met this man, Abu Qatada, a preacher of militant Islam, who continues to call for Muslims to throw off what he calls U.S. subjugation. After September 11, a police review of earlier wiretap recordings showed Yarkas had three suspicious conversations with a suspected terrorist just before the attacks.

CHIEF JUAN COTINO, SPANISH NATIONAL POLICE (through translator): In one call last August 27, they talked about aviation objectives and one of them said, speaking in code, that they would have to kill the bird.

GOODMAN: The man, identified only by an alias, tells Yarkas that he has been giving classes in aviation and, according to the court records, he goes on to say, we have even cut the bird's throat.

Authorities believe the throats of some of the pilots were slashed during the hijackings of the four airliners on September 11.

Al Goodman, CNN, Madrid.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BAY: Our next stop is Rome, as CNN's Jim Bittermann reports, Italy is making good use of a brand-new law targeting terrorists.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Whether inspecting the trunks of cars in front of the Vatican or raiding resort homes in the Alps, Italian police, assisted by a 2-week-old anti-terrorism law, are carrying out an unprecedented security crackdown.

And the results are startling. After searches and arrests of suspected terrorists, authorities have come to the conclusion that Italy has been a support base for terrorist operations, providing false documents, money, and other sorts of logistics.

In his most extensive interview to date, the coordinator of Italian Intelligence Services shared his findings with us, revealing a terrorist network under construction for years.

FRANCISCO FRATTINI, INTELLIGENCE MINISTER (through translator): We have been discovering, for example, people who have been living in a legal way in Italy. In some cases they have Italian citizenship through marriage. They were not doing anything strange in Italy, but they were preparing for attacks abroad.

BITTERMANN: Four suspected terrorists were arrested in Milan, for example, charged with helping recruit al Qaeda operatives in Europe. The Italian security chief said contrary to newspaper reports, there has been no specific threat to the Vatican, but that the faithful now pass through metal detectors on their way to mass, because the Pope and his basilica are an obvious target. But there have been specific threats: A suspected plot to blow up a stretch of the Italian highway system led to an intensive search for a truck bomb, and massive weekend traffic jams. As elsewhere in Europe, the Italians have put the Islamic community under close surveillance, with the rationale that some Islamic cultural centers, have been frequented by suspected terrorists.

The assistant to the Imam of one center was arrested last weekend, but the head of intelligence said there are no plans to crack down on the cultural centers. And he told us that his forces are thoroughly checking through a list of Italian residents found in the abandoned house of the Taliban defense minister in Kabul.

FRATTINI (through translator): This triggered an immediate search. Many of these people were dormant agents. They have already fled, but we and all the other allies are pursuing them.

BITTERMANN: And so searching for terrorists in faraway places has as elsewhere in Europe, led to fallout here.

(on camera): The globalization of terrorism is not new, but Italian officials say the atmosphere has now changed. The U.S.-led effort in Afghanistan has provided the perfect opportunity to tighten the laws and go global to pursue terrorism in their own back yard.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Vactican City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BAY: Where else in the world are the terrorists hiding? We will go looking for answers when THE POINT returns.

ANNOUNCER: Target: Saddam Hussein. "Flashpoint": Is Iraq next?

And later...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every time I think of him or talk about him, I smile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Maria Hinojosa, up close with a victim of the terrorists, who is rebuilding her life. THE POINT is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BAY: They seem to be everywhere. Members of terrorist cells, plotting, hating and hiding until the time is right. Will authorities find them though before they strike?

Harvard University's Juliette Kayyem joins us from Boston. She is executive director of the Executive Session on Domestic Preparedness. Juliette, welcome. JULIETTE KAYYEM, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Welcome, hello.

BAY: Is it clear terrorism is a global game and these cells are just about everywhere, even in places we may not have imagined?

KAYYEM: Yes. I mean, these terrorist cells are likely in a lot of the Western European countries for the same reason why terrorists are in America, which is they tend to be Democratic societies. They don't have good controls over their borders. They are places terrorists can assimilate in, as we saw both with the terrorists here in America and the men captured in Spain just last week. They married Spaniards. They assimilated well into society. So these are easy places to hide.

BAY: Right, it's clear the U.S. is not alone in allowing terrorists to live peacefully side by side amongst their citizens.

KAYYEM: Absolutely. I mean -- and look at -- the instance of Mohamed Atta is a case in point. Here he was in America, his visa had expired. And then he is able to go to Spain two or three times, even after his visa is expired. Neither the U.S. nor the Spaniards caught that at the time.

BAY: Given what we are saying, is that these cells are everywhere, how worried should we be? Is it likely that a terrorist cell or several will strike again?

KAYYEM: Well, I'm not so worried that bin Laden is sitting in a cave right now planning the next attack. I think what worries most people is that well before September 11, some of these cells were put in motion to attack America or western European sites or American sites abroad sometime later on.

And so the goal now is to try to infiltrate those cells before they can act on directions that they probably got well before September 11. So, we talk about this war on terrorism, and right now it's a very public war which is the military war in Afghanistan.

The not so public war is this cooperation, indeed, I would say this dependence that we have on our western European law enforcement agents for them to get in there and to try to infiltrate and stop the cells there.

BAY: You know, we just heard Jim Bittermann from Italy saying that, you know, terrorism -- there is nothing new about global terrorism, but really, the atmosphere has changed dramatically. Do you think that will result in additional successes in capturing these cells?

KAYYEM: Yes, I think it definitely will.

I mean, a lot of these western European countries clearly had a terrorism problem before, but it was more internal. So, the British had the Irish problem. The Spaniards had the Bask movement. And so, they had dealt with terrorism before, but nothing like the global terrorism we are dealing with now. And like the United States, I think none had it as a priority before. So, what we learned today was that the Spaniards had been investigating some of these cells as late as -- or as early as -- 1998 and 1999, meaning they had some idea something was going on. But it really wasn't until the 11th when everyone sort of was put on notice and said, "You know, this has to be a number one priority not only for the United States, but for our western European allies."

I think the problem -- not the problem -- but the thing that we need to watch out for is as the military mission ends as or -- you know, in the course of the next couple weeks or months, even if bin Laden is killed, there is still going to be a continuing threat, how much cooperation we can get from our western allies who have other priorities, have to deal with internal politics in a different way than we do, how they will -- how much enthusiasm they will have in the future.

BAY: So, as this, as you say, less public battle unfolds, then what does this battlefield look like? Is there a lead commander?

KAYYEM: No. You know, the debate...

BAY: And do we need one?

KAYYEM: Well, the debate that's going here in America about what kind of courts should we have -- an international court, U.S. courts and now the military court option -- it's a good debate to have because I don't think there is one single solution.

But there is also the very great likelihood that a lot of European countries will try these guys themselves because they haven't -- for some of the cells -- they haven't done anything. There is no American victims yet. It's not a problem, from my perspective. A lot of our western European allies would not extradite some of these suspects to the U.S. because we have the death penalty and they will not extradite defendants for that reason.

So, we don't need a lead in this. I mean, clearly, if the top leaders of al Qaeda are caught in an ally's country, then I think that there will be a turf battle about who gets control of them, whether it's U.S. federal district court, military courts or the European court.

BAY: Is this a war that can be won?

KAYYEM: It's a war that will definitely be -- how do I want to say this -- I think it can be won but it may not be a perfect win.

I think both the military option, the law enforcement option, putting a lot more of emphasis into intelligence, will definitely undermine or infiltrate some of the terrorist cells out there. But, as we know from the September 11 events, these guys have been planning this stuff for four or five years. So we have to keep vigilant over the course of time. The military war right now going on in Afghanistan will end a lot sooner than all the other facets. Law enforcement, intelligence will need to continue. BAY: Juliette Kayyem of Harvard University, good to hear from you this evening. Thanks.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

BAY: In the hunt for worldwide terrorists, are we ignoring the obvious? Our next "Flashpoint": Is Iraq next? Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BAY: President Bush has made the choice crystal clear. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. So where does that leave Saddam Hussein's Iraq? Suspected September 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence agent twice in June of 2000 and April of this year. U.S. officials say there's no doubt Iraq supports international terrorism.

"Flashpoint": Is Iraq next? On our POINT panel, Rachel Bronsen is the deputy director of national security at the Council on Foreign Relations. She's in New York. In Washington is former California congressman Robert Dornan. He now hosts a syndicated radio talk show. Also in Washington, syndicated columnist Armstrong Williams. And in Detroit is Nancy Skinner, who also hosts a nationally syndicated radio talk show.

Welcome to all of you. Let's start with our gentleman in Washington. Actually, Congressman, why don't I start with you. Is Iraq next? Should it be next?

ROBERT DORNAN, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: I've been doing shows like this for four decades and I've never said anything ever, even as close to what I'm about to say in its importance. If we don't get him, hundreds of thousands of Israelis will die in Haifa. I say Haifa, the third largest city, because he will never hit Jerusalem, a holy city to Islam. And Tel Aviv is too close to Israel for radioactivity not to hit the holy city of Jerusalem.

He will hit Haifa. And if he doesn't hit Haifa, he'll hit the United States. I'm not talking about 5,000 Americans incinerated and pulverized. I'm speaking of hundreds of thousands. He's on an inevitable course to do this. He must be taken down. He must be.

BAY: Armstrong Williams, do you agree?

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: I think he's absolutely on point. I think it's just a matter of time before Saddam Hussein attempts to nuke us. I think it's just a matter of time before he tries to get his nukes here on American soil in three or four major cities. I think it will be a little different. They tell us that it is not good to fight a war during the war in Afghanistan. And I think it's just perfect in a place like Iraq.

But it cannot be like Afghanistan. It has to be swift. We must put ground troops on the ground immediately. We must try to take them out within 10 to 15 days, because the longer the conflict lingers, the more outraged the Arab world will become. BAY: Nancy Skinner, do you agree this man is deadly? We need to take him out?

NANCY SKINNER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yeah, right, Armstrong, we'll be able to take him out in 10 to 15 days.

First of all, Willow, we've got to think about this for a minute. This is exactly what Osama bin Laden wants us to do. This is the trap he laid down. He wants us to get into a war with the Muslim world. He wants World War III. So here it is, the perfect chance.

We say, well, we might as well go and do what we should've done in the Gulf War. We go into Iraq. Armstrong's talking about ground troops. You know, there are a lot of sponsors of terrorism. Should we go after Iran and Sudan and Libya and North Korea at this point and start a huge world war?

No, we have to go back to the U.N. There is a U.N. resolution that is meant to deal with weapons of mass destruction. We go back to the table. We think out of the box about how to contain him. But continuing to escalate this war -- and Pakistan right now is very unstable. If they feel like we're going against the whole Muslim world, who knows? They're a nuclear power, a very unstable nuclear power.

I think this could go way out of control.

BAY: Rachel Bronsen, how do you weigh in?

RACHEL BRONSEN, DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I actually think we do have to take Saddam very seriously. But before we just scare the entire nation with this show, there is the problem that he doesn't -- we don't know that he has the nuclear capabilities that we've just heard about.

He's clearly trying to get these things. And it's very important that we do our best to make sure he doesn't. But that being said, there's a lot of things that we can and we should be doing, that we haven't been doing.

Iraq has no business to have intelligence agents running around Europe as the lead in for the show. We do have to contain this guy. We have to take him seriously, but we have to finish what we're doing in Afghanistan first, before we even start this kind of craziness about we're going put 500,000 ground troops in next couple of days. We have to finish this mission, sew it up, and then look to what that we can really do with Iraq.

BAY: Armstrong, you mentioned putting ground troops down and wiping him out in a matter of weeks, but the reality is if we are looking -- if the U.S. is looking at going after Saddam Hussein, we do have another Gulf War on our hands with hundreds of thousands of troops. It took us weeks to prepare. Is that a luxury that we have here?

WILLIAMS: Well, Willow, none of us arrive to these conclusions easily. Obviously, none of us would ever forget the day of infamy on 9/11. And no matter what they say a year from now or two years from now, I believe, like many Americans, that it was not just Osama bin Laden that took last three or four years to plan this. I think much of this was planned in stages. I think much of it was disrupted, some of things they did not prepare for.

I have to credit our President and his Attorney General and his lieutenants for doing such a fine job. After 9/11, it sort of -- locking many of these people up. We wanted to create more havoc on American soil.

But I think these people are regrouping. I think their ultimate goal is to destroy America. They see us as infidels. So whether we do it in one months or two months, it's a matter of time. Either they attack us first and then we retaliate. But sooner or later, we're going to have to deal with those terrorist states that President Bush talked about, those harbingers of terror. And I think it has to be dealt with. And if not dealt with soon, I think we all will pay the ultimate price.

SKINNER: But what about Saudi Arabia, Armstrong? They are harbingers of terrorists. He has said that either you are with us or against us. Half of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. We are now finding out that a lot of the funding for these organizations comes from al Qaeda specifically, bin Laden from Saudi Arabia.

Even members of the royal family. Do we go after them now? No, they're our allies. This stuff is way more complicated than they're going to destroy us. We must destroy them. It's complicated.

WILLIAMS: I think only time will tell who our allies are. I don't think we're absolutely certain about that. Obviously, people are paying a lot of lip service to what we're doing. But I think when this thing really gets real serious, and I don't think it has gotten there yet, we'll find out who our allies and who's with us and who's not.

BAY: When will you know when it gets serious, Armstrong?

WILLIAMS: When we decide to do exactly what Nancy has sort of alleged. We just have to get serious and realize that we've got to weed out terrorists wherever they are, whether it's in Saudi Arabia, whether it's in Iran, whether it's in Syria, whether it's in some of these African countries that harbor terrorists. We cannot stop because the livelihood of the world is at stake.

BRONSON: Let me jump in here for a second.

BAY: Go ahead.

BRONSON: In a sense, I think that the previous point was right, but there's different ways that you go about rooting out terrorism. And I think the administration actually couched this really quite well when they said that there's a military aspect to this, but there's a tremendous financial aspect to this as well. And you know, cutting out the sources of funding -- and that's where a lot of pressure has, I'm sure, come down on the Saudis on this issue is that we can't have money flowing to these guys. And so, all the legislation's being passed and all that.

That's very important. And I think that's an important component to what we're talking about. And in terms of the Saudis, we certainly have a lot of difficulties with them right now, but they are our partners in the region, especially if we're going to be talking about Iraq.

I don't think we want to be, sort of, throwing the Saudis in one case, and then just saying that we're also going to invade Iraq. I mean, if we're really going to be serious about Iraq, we do need the Saudis in there. And we have to figure out how to balance that.

BAY: Rachel, I'm going to let that be the last word for just a moment, but I mean just a moment. Our "Flashpoint" will return right after this commercial break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BAY: Welcome back. Our POINT panel is discussing whether Saddam Hussein's Iraq should be the next target in the war on terrorism.

Rachel Bronsen of the Council on Foreign Relations is in New York. Congressman, turned radio talk show host, Robert Dornan. He's in Washington, along with syndicated columnist Armstrong Williams. There he is. And radio talk show host Nancy Skinner. She's in Detroit. Now before we left for the commercial break, Rachel was making a case for other options other than military strikes for containment, for cracking down on finances.

Congressman Dornan, what's the matter with exploring and perhaps exploiting all those other options before we use military force?

DORNAN: Well, we've been doing that for over a decade now. Pretty soon, it's 11 years since the war ended on the next to the last day in February of '91. We deny him air rights, Saddam Hussein, north of his own 36th parallel, south of his own 33rd parallel.

We ought to make it the whole country. We ought to shut down any air traffic over that country at all. We allowed him, huge mistake. Norman Schwarzkopf admits this. We allowed him to kept Russian helicopter gunships with their guns. So he murdered thousands of Kurdish women and children and little babies. He killed thousands of Shi'a, women, children, babies, old men in the south.

We should blow up every helicopter in his country. We can that easily. And here's what we didn't do in the Gulf War. We didn't use the B-1 until Operation Desert Fox seven years later. We didn't have the B-2.

We have smart bombs four times the capability of what we had before. And we never used the B-52 in Iraq the way we've used it in Afghanistan with more precision. We can take Basra. I never thought we should have taken Baghdad.

When my friends, Bush the senior and Jim Baker and everyone says, "Oh, we couldn't take Baghdad," of course not. You don't touch Mecca, Medina, Damascus or Baghdad. But we could have continued the hail Mary left hook, taken Basra, cut off the Republican Guar. Colin Powell should have kept word to kill that part of army. And he would've been overthrown by his troops.

SKINNER: What do we say to Tony Blair, who has implored President Bush not to move into Iraq. That will -- forget our alliance with England on this, because he has said we do not want you to go into Iraq.

DORNAN: You know what Bush tells him, Nancy?

SKINNER: Sorry, what?

DORNAN: He says, "Tony, we've become friends, but I have yet to meet your dad. You know my dad. Saddam Hussein tried kill my father. You got that, Tony? This man has supervised...

SKINNER: This is not a personal issue. This is not personal vendetta we're talking about.

DORNAN: Wait a minute.

SKINNER: We're saying we should go into Iraq because of a personal vendetta?

DORNAN: Nancy, there's an hour documentary available to you from the History Channel and History International. When you look at that documentary, you see that Saddam Hussein has supervised torture sessions. There's no testimony that the other people won. Osama bin Laden has every tortured to death Russian POWs or engaged in torture sessions of 500 people.

SKINNER: Well, they tortured people in Egypt. They torture people in Saudi Arabia. They torture people in North Korea. They torture people -- if you're saying that's the standard for who we should bomb...

DORNAN: No, al Qaeda.

SKINNER: ...wherever there's torture, we'll be all over the globe then.

DORNAN: No, no, al Qaeda -- oh, you're talking about the other side. Our friends have done that. Is what you mean?

SKINNER: You're just saying...

BAY: Yes, jump in.

SKINNER: Because they've tortured people that that's why we should go in. There's torture all over the globe.

DORNAN: No, no. I'm not saying he...

BAY: I'm going to let you jump in.

DORNAN: I am saying he has personally killed people and tortured them death. This guy is far more evil than Osama. And that's saying something. It's like you're comparing Beelzebub to Satan.

BAY: Congressman, take a deep breath, because I think Rachel would like to say something.

DORNAN: OK.

BAY: Go ahead, Rachel.

BRONSEN: In terms of containment, I actually think there's a whole heck of a lot more than we could have been doing that we didn't. But the Clinton administration didn't take it as seriously as they could have to build containment.

However, the part of what the congressman said I would agree. And if we're serious about containment, there are options of things we can look at in Iraq of things that we should consider doing. Some of this no-fly zone I think is absolutely right.

But I think that to discuss it now isn't terribly productive because we're not doing anything now, and we shouldn't be doing anything until we sew up Afghanistan. But given that we are in Afghanistan, we should really be thinking about how do we want to get states like the Russians or the Iranians to deal with us in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

That might give us leverage to figure out what do we want from the Russians in Afghanistan. What can we get from them to do in Iraq. And to think of this as a whole package and a regional solution, rather than going from country to country to country. It will give us more options.

DORNAN: Well, I agree with what you're saying if you apply it to the White House. The White House shouldn't be talking the way we are here. But we have prepare the American people. We're the cutting edge. Our public school system has so desperate let us down for 25, 30, 35 years in this country.

We have to let the American people know what the History Channel, which is not watched as much as all the entertainment shows, we have to let the American people know the raw evil of Saddam Hussein. He's worse than Osama bin Laden because he runs a powerful oil-rich state.

BAY: Armstrong, go ahead. Jump in. I was going to let you get the last word in.

WILLIAMS: Just quickly, you know, Nance, I'd like to say to you, I notice that you want to believe in the Saudis, but even the Saudis to date have not frozen the assets of the al Qaeda network.

Now don't believe in Saudis. Yes, I don't think they're our allies.

WILLIAMS: And Osama bin Laden. I think we need talk about that. It's very difficult for us to talk about the Saudis because we so much want them to be our allies. But sometimes, we have face some harsh realities in the times that were in.

SKINNER: Absolutely.

DORNAN: Nancy's on our side on that.

BAY: Ladies and gentlemen, I've got a harsh reality of my own. We're out of time. Thank you very much for the spirited conversation tonight. Rachel Bronsen, Congressman Dornan, Armstrong Williams and Nancy Skinner. We certainly enjoyed hearing from all of you.

Up next, a World Trade Center widow learns to smile again, when THE POINT returns.

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BAY: So many lives were altered by the events of September 11.

Tonight, CNN's Maria Hinojosa takes us up close to a woman who is facing a world that is familiar, yet totally changed. She is single again.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Scruffy Duffy's Sports Bar, a crowded Manhattan hangout, where a young vibrant woman is surrounded by beer-chugging men. But Susan Ferugio isn't looking for a date. At 34, she's a widow with a tentative smile, trying to reclaim her life. These guys are her late husband's drinking buddies, trying to lend their support. But all the while, she's trying to figure out, just what does a young widow do?

So what's going on for you being here at this noisy bar?

SUSAN FERUGIO: I mean, it's good to be around people. It sort of seems -- I mean, the first couple of weeks after the tragedy, I mean everything was empty. People weren't going out. The streets were empty. And it was just -- you know, the aftermath of this horrible tragedy.

And when I see, you know, the streets and the people getting back to normal, I mean, it feels better. It doesn't change my situation.

HINOJOSA: But the next morning, there is just silence. No Mike Ferugio to kiss or tease. A young woman reading the newspaper. The first thing she reads? The obituaries.

FERUGIO: It seems like every bit of new information that I get, there's somebody else that I knew or that I knew of, or that is somehow connected to me.

HINOJOSA: Together for 10 years, married for 4. Susan's husband Mike was at the World Trade Center for a business breakfast. He was perpetually late for work, but not September 11.

FERUGIO: When his boss first called the first day, and we were trying to figure out if Mike actually did make it to the meeting, he said, you know, so was he at least late? And I'm like, "Not today. Unfortunately not."

HINOJOSA: It isn't easy to navigate this new life alone. The halls of the subway seem long. The echoes of her footsteps empty. Inside, a search for some peace, but not really. What's peace when your morning commute is about trying to understand how and if Islam had anything to do with your husband?

Mike, she says, was the kind of guy who wanted to make people feel good and valuable on this earth.

FERUGIO: One of the things that Mike did was he talked to everyone on the street.

HINOJOSA: It drove you crazy?

FERUGIO: Yes. Me being the native New Yorker and him being from a small town in Pennsylvania. Well I met him when he had first moved to New York. And you know, he'd walk down the street and say hello to homeless people and you know, everything. And I sort of told him like, "You can't make eye contact with people in New York."

HINOJOSA: Now she's the one communicating with life's many strangers. The doorman, maybe a store owner, or the cop on the corner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to cross? I'll cross you.

HINOJOSA: In the end, Susan says, she learned from Mike how to be nicer to strangers and how to find joy.

A lot of people who I've talked to have not been able to talk about their loved ones smiling, and you do.

FERUGIO: Every time I think of him or talk about him, I smile because it's just great memories. You know, and like I said, I'm sad, I'm really sad, I'm just profoundly hurt by this, but there's so much good, that I just keep going back to. It's Mike. You know, he's just this great guy.

HINOJOSA: Who used to walk with her along the Brooklyn Promenade to take in the splendor of their city. Now we try to figure out just where the towers stood. And Susan shares her young widow's confusion.

FERUGIO: You know, what am I supposed to do, just sit in my apartment and cry all day and not go to work and not go out and not do anything? It's not going to help. It's not going to, you know, make me miss Mike less.

HINOJOSA: Or forget that he wanted was for her to be happy.

If you could talk to Mike, one last time, what would you say? FERUGIO: Well, I would just thank him for you know, being in my life and tell him how much I enjoyed it, and you know, that I'll always love him and never forget him.

HINOJOSA: Maria Hinojosa, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BAY: THE POINT will return after a break and our MONEYLINE update.

(NEWS BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BAY: We're looking for e-mail from women who are thinking about going into the military in the wake of the September 11 attacks. So send an e-mail to askgreta@cnn.com. Now that's one word: askgreta.

I'm Willow Bay in New York. Tomorrow night during this hour, tune in for a CNN special, "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN" with Christiane Amanpour. That is tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

And next, former presidential candidate Bob Dole is among the guests on "LARRY KING LIVE." Thanks for joining us. Good night.

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