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American Morning
Cloning: Ethical Breakthrough or Breakdown?
Aired November 27, 2001 - 08:26 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: That brings us to the question, is therapeutic cell cloning a medical breakthrough or an ethical breakdown?
From Philadelphia we welcome Arthur Caplan, a bioethicist from the University of Pennsylvania.
And in New York this morning, John Rennie from "Scientific American" magazine.
Good morning, gentlemen.
DR. ARTHUR CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Good morning.
JOHN RENNIE, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN" MAGAZINE: Good morning.
ZAHN: Glad to have both of you with us this morning.
All right, for starters we've got to figure out where you both stand on the issue of therapeutic cloning. Dr. Kaplan, are you in favor of it or not?
CAPLAN: Well, I'm in favor of it. I think that it's reasonable to pursue research to try and develop tissues and cells, Paula.
You know, Hollywood loves cloning people. That's the stuff of Star Wars and Arnold Schwarzenegger movies and different TV specials. But Wall Street loves making cells because that's where the money is, that's where the cures are.
I think that there are ethical questions about how to deal with these creations, cloned embryos, parthenogenic eggs, eggs that have been developed a bit using chemicals without any sperm or input from any males.
But I think that the equation comes out, if I have to try to find cures for someone in a wheelchair versus a situation where I'm trying to worry about the fate of a four-cell or eight-cell construct, biological construct, then I'm going to come out for the wheelchair.
ZAHN: And where do you stand on that, John Rennie?
RENNIE: Well at least Dr. Caplan and I start off, I think, in real accord about that.
Reproductive cloning seems like a very unwise idea and I think that -- my impression is that most of the biomedical community agrees that it's probably wise to have some sorts of laws in place that would prevent that. But the therapeutic clone ...
ZAHN: Well, let me ask you this, John.
RENNIE: Yes.
ZAHN: Even -- even the head of that firm that created this human embryo admitted to us on camera yesterday that it is highly conceivable, through this technique, you could create a human embryo if you implanted these cells in a woman's uterus.
RENNIE: You know, that's because that at the starting stages, of course, you're creating a human clone. And what you do with it thereafter, of course, you would have the potential to do that. That's not the interest of the researchers at ACT, and that's not what the real interests of most responsible scientists are.
They want to stick to therapeutic ...
ZAHN: Yeah, but how do you, ...
RENNIE: ... cloning.
ZAHN: ... how do you safeguard the system against these irresponsible scientists, in your judgment?
RENNIE: Well, actually, there are a number of different ways to do that. One is that you can set up just a very good system of monitoring.
You know, these clones don't suddenly become infants unless they're implanted into a woman. You can keep track of what's happening with all of the different clones. And you can try to make sure in that respect that you've always got a clear distinction between therapeutic and reproductive cloning.
ZAHN: All right ...
RENNIE: (INAUDIBLE) ...
ZAHN: ... before you go any further, John, let's let Dr. Caplan weigh in on just that specific point. Can you regulate that, Dr. Caplan, within the confines of private clinics?
CAPLAN: Well ...
ZAHN: Private (INAUDIBLE)?
CAPLAN: ... what we've done so far, Paula, is we've got a situation where the government is basically pulling away from funding, and that's its big club to regulate things in the United States, in any event. So, the private sector is pushing cloning technology. We certainly can pass laws that limit what the private sector can do. But can we regulate and prohibit anybody from ever trying to clone someone? I would say, no, we can't.
But no more than we can pass laws against speeding and make sure that no one ever does it.
I'm in favor, absolutely in favor of passing those laws. But the fact is, this technology's around. It is possible to use it. Somebody probably someday will.
But I think what we also have to keep in mind is this. The biology of cloning, when it comes to human beings, is not the same as sheep and pigs and mice. No one has used Dolly style cloning to make a monkey yet, and people have been desperately trying to make dogs and cats, because there's money out there for cloning pets, haven't succeeded.
We may not be cloneable. We may just be able to start up things, and then for some reason we don't understand, not make people that way.
ZAHN: So, John, do you favor, as Dr. Caplan does, more government involvement in this issue? Is that the answer?
RENNIE: You know I think one of the most foolish things the government can do is basically turn a blind eye to the whole issue of what the cloning technologies can do, and to imagine that by either just outlawing it or by it, effectively ignoring it that these problems are going to go away.
In a lot of ways, the smartest thing they can do is to stay involved with it, to allow some sorts of federal funding and the kind of federal oversight that would go along with that.
ZAHN: Dr. Caplan, then, I'm trying to understand the biggest bone of contention between you two guys. Where do you think the biggest difference lies?
CAPLAN: Well, the battleground here, I think, is in two other areas, which we haven't got to yet, Paula.
And one is, I'm very nervous about hype in this area. And I think that these announcements about, we've got the first cloned embryo, I'm not sure that really the company's achieved that. They started something growing, but it died very quickly, and scientifically it's not clear that they really succeeded in making a clone.
This company's on the prowl for funds. It does what companies do. It has to raise money. I'm not sure sort of science by press release, and certainly Elizabeth Cohen's report about this other company which says, we're, you know, we're going to clone people although we haven't published anything and we're not going to tell you anything about it -- that's not a great way to do things. The other quick point -- patenting and ownership control. Putting all the technology, cloning technology, in private hands and just leaving there and saying, well, a small number of companies are going to control all this for making people or making cures, I think that's a terrible idea.
ZAHN: John Rennie, you get a final 10-second thought here this morning.
RENNIE: I think it would be a mistake to characterize this as science by press release. And I think if government's going to stay out of this area, then it's going to be up to industry to fill the gap.
ZAHN: Good to have both of your points of view this morning. Dr. Art Caplan, John Rennie, appreciate your input.
CAPLAN: Thank you.
RENNIE: Thank you.
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