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American Morning
Bin Laden Must Be Denied "A Martyr's Crown"
Aired November 28, 2001 - 08:09 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The hunt for Osama bin Laden is now said to be focused in specific areas of southern Afghanistan. The terrorist and chief may be the ultimate prize for the U.S. military, but the strategy may be a double-edged sword.
As Michael Elliott, "Time" magazine editor-at-large, writes this week: "The precise form of bin Laden's death is of little significance. What matters is that on Earth, he be denied a martyr's crown."
So, does bin Laden want the U.S. military to kill him, or does that much matter? Michael Elliott joins me to talk about that this morning -- good to see you again -- welcome back.
MICHAEL ELLIOTT, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Nice to be back, Paula.
ZAHN: Isn't it a little bit late to talk about a plan to keep this guy from becoming a martyr? Isn't he already perceived as a martyr in many parts of the Islamic world?
ELLIOTT: He is, but I don't think it is too late -- no. He is perceived as a martyr, and if he dies, there is only going to be some people who are going to put up posters of him and venerate him and maybe kind of flock to whatever camps are left to continue the terrorist tripe.
There are others, of course, who are going to see that people are liberated in the streets of Kabul and women taking off their burqas and draw precisely the opposite conclusions. But for the people who want to hear or worship bin Laden, there is stuff that we can do. We can be generous. We can make sure that this time we don't walk away from a poor, wracked, war-ruined country.
ZAHN: Much as the Soviets?
ELLIOTT: Much as the Soviets did, and frankly as we did in 1989 after the Soviets did. This time, we can stay. We can help build up the education system. We can help replant all of those wonderful Afghan orchards that have been cut down for firewood. We can demine the country. We can put money into removing the land mines that maim little kids and stop people tilling their fields. There's a lot that we can do to show...
ZAHN: But that... ELLIOTT: ... to show -- but it helps.
ZAHN: It's not going to stop the cult of worship
(CROSSTALK)
ELLIOTT: No, no, it won't stop the cult of worship, but what it will do -- all of the terrorist experts talk about a pool in which terrorists swim. And what we can do is start to drain the pool. We will never eradicate the hardcore people, who for reasons of religious fundamentalism or radical politics or some other kind of crazy paranoia, take up the gun and the bomb. And we can never stop a few people here who are worshipping and venerating bin Laden.
ZAHN: Because
(CROSSTALK)
ELLIOTT: Because what we can do, though, is shrink the pool within which they get sympathy and logistical support, money, hiding places. And what we can do with economic assistance, with removing mines, with helping agriculture, with helping education is prove that we are a generous people, and we will thereby shrink the pool of those who sympathize with bin Laden. I passionately believe we can do that.
ZAHN: You do. And given what the world community has now said...
ELLIOTT: Right.
ZAHN: ... that they will embrace, you're fairly confident that this will happen.
ELLIOTT: Well...
ZAHN: Not that the U.S. is going alone, I mean
(CROSSTALK)
ELLIOTT: It should absolutely be the U.S. going it alone. It should be a multilateral operation with lots and lots of different countries. But I think it is extremely important that we, in the U.S., send the signal that we care about the fate of people who have gone through 22 years of war, who have pretty much lost hope, who have very, very little to look forward to, and in the last five or six years under the Taliban, have had a truly evil, repressive regime over them.
Now, if we (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ourselves as the richest nation -- we're not responsible for Afghanistan, you know. It's not -- this isn't a guilt trip here.
ZAHN: But there are people who say...
ELLIOTT: But it's a...
ZAHN: ... that U.S. policy...
ELLIOTT: ... but it's a question...
ZAHN: ... led to the creation of the Taliban and...
ELLIOTT: ... you know, there are -- I would argue that there were occasions in which we didn't' help. But you know, there were larger forces at work that were (ph) responsibility. See, this isn't a guilt trip. This is a moment for Americans to share with the generosity of their heart to people who are very poor, and who have had a really rough break for a quarter of a century.
ZAHN: Your piece also touches on this whole issue of martyrdom. Help everybody, who is watching this this morning, understand the allure of that for Osama bin Laden...
ELLIOTT: No, I think...
ZAHN: ... and his followers. What is awaiting...
ELLIOTT: ... I think -- well, I think...
ZAHN: ... him at the other side?
ELLIOTT: Well, what is awaiting him at the other side, according to a 1996 fatwa that he put out, it was not just the 72 black-eyed virgins that we've heard about. But get this: divine intercession on behalf of 70 relatives. In other words, you know, if you're a martyr, you can absolutely guarantee that 70 of your relatives will join you in paradise. Oh, and also...
ZAHN: Well, that's a pretty good deal.
ELLIOTT: Oh, and also -- and also a conviction apparently that at the time of death as a martyr, you will feel no more pain than if you had been pinched.
Now, I've been fascinated by bin Laden's language of martyrdom for five or six years, because it is -- I think we find it extraordinary difficult -- most of us find it extraordinarily difficult to...
ZAHN: It's difficult to comprehend.
ELLIOTT: ... to cope with this. But the point about martyrs is that they win by losing. They die, and yet they win, because people follow them. People hear and worship and people venerate them.
ZAHN: So what are you saying? It doesn't matter much whether we kill them...
ELLIOTT: I have always...
ZAHN: ... or whether his own soldiers kill him...
ELLIOTT: ... I have always thought... ZAHN: ... or whether he kills himself?
ELLIOTT: ... I have always thought there was a sense in which -- I mean, if you think back to September 11, you know, logically this was crazy, you know? From a kind of cave in Afghanistan, you take on the richest nation on Earth, and you must know that the reaction is going to be extraordinary, that all of our high-tech weaponry, all of our bombs and planes are going to come and be visited upon you with great violence.
But if you want to be a martyr, that doesn't matter, you know.
ZAHN: No.
ELLIOTT: Because you say, it doesn't matter. If I am killed, if my friends are killed, as long as people follow after me, as long as people venerate me, and as long as I get the martyr's crown, everything will be OK. So what I've argued this week is that we can do a little bit, here and there, to make sure that he doesn't get that martyr's crown.
ZAHN: Yes, one of the analogies I heard last week, the Flintstones (ph) will go on.
ELLIOTT: Absolutely. Make that level ground some more, you know.
ZAHN: Michael Elliott -- always good to have you with us here on the set.
ELLIOTT: Good to be here.
ZAHN: Always delighted to spend time with you -- look forward to your pieces next week.
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