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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
America Strikes Back: Did the Taliban's Mullah Omar Escape the Crosshairs Again?
Aired November 28, 2001 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Today on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back."
The first U.S. combat death in Afghanistan: who was the CIA officer and what was he doing there?
Did the Taliban's Mullah Omar escape the crosshairs again? And who was caught on camera in this underground cave?
An old killer, a new terror threat -- and a major undertaking to protect the population. Those stories, and Henry Kissinger, on a setback at efforts to build a new Afghanistan, as "America Strikes Back."
Hello from Washington. In this hour, we're expecting to hear from the father of the CIA operative who died in Afghanistan. We will provide live coverage once that happens. Also this hour, the Bush administration has just announced a major decision, one that may protect your life. In a few moments we'll talk to Dr. Anthony Fauci of the National Institutes of Health. He'll explain when and how a smallpox vaccine would be administered.
But first, here's CNN's Donna Kelley in Atlanta with a quick check of the latest developments, including a breaking story we are following right now -- Donna.
DONNA KELLEY, CNN ANCHOR: That's right, Wolf. Thanks very much.
We do have breaking news for you. Let's pull up our live pictures from King TV, out around Seattle. We've got a hazardous material response team. Police and firefighters there, they have sealed off two city blocks. They've closed the streets in downtown Seattle around the Bank of America building, because around 12:30 -- it's 2:00 p.m. Pacific time, there.
Around 12:30 their time, there was an odor that folks in the Bank of America building started complaining about on the 19th floor. They have some blue contamination tents there, you can see in your picture. And they have treated, according to a fire department spokeswoman, treated five people, and two more may need treatment. No word on the cause, yet.
So they're on the scene there, trying to find out what the problem is. The smell that was happening on the 19th floor that workers were complaining about, at the Bank of America building, and two cities blocks, streets, sealed off around downtown Seattle. We'll keep you posted on what else happens there.
The United States has suffered its first combat death in Afghanistan. CIA officer Johnny Michael Spann was killed during a prison uprising in Mazar-e Sharif. Officials say that Spann was inside the vast prison gathering intelligence when he was killed. The U.S. flag is lowered to half-staff at CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, in honor of Spann. Spann is survived by his wife and three young children.
Video for you now here, showing what the Pentagon says is a suspected Taliban or al Qaeda leadership compound being bombed by a U.S. warplane. Pentagon sources said the attack was launched after the United States received information that Taliban spiritual leader Mullah Mohammed Omar was inside one of those buildings. A top Taliban official denied that its leadership compound was hit, and said that Omar is safe.
Some 800 U.S. Marines are now deployed at an airfield within striking distance of the Taliban's last stronghold, the southern city of Kandahar. More Marines are expected in the coming days. Officials say that the Marine's mission is to apply pressure on Taliban holed up in Kandahar.
Spanish troops will join the U.S.-led war against terrorism if they are needed. That's the word today from Spanish Prime Minister Jose Aznar, who held talks with President Bush. Spain is holding 14 al Qaeda suspects. Mr. Bush says that Spain's help in the war on terror has been incredibly helpful.
The Bush administration has reached a deal to expand its stockpile of the smallpox vaccine, to cover the entire U.S. population. Under the plan, the United States would have some 286 million doses of the vaccine by the end of the year. We'll be talking more about that in just a minute.
And a chairman of the Senate judiciary committee today blasted President Bush's plan to have military tribunals try non-Americans suspected of terrorism. Senator Patrick Leahy says that that move and oaths are a marked departure from long-held customs. Supporters of the president say that the moves are necessary in the war against terrorism.
Quick look at the latest developments, and we'll keep track of that breaking story for you -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Donna. And as Donna just reported, the United States has now suffered its first combat death in the war in Afghanistan. CIA officer Johnny Spann was killed in the Taliban prison uprising in Mazar-e Sharif. CNN national security correspondent David Ensor reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, the flag has been lowered to half staff to honor the first American combat casualty in Afghanistan. Thirty-two-year- old Mike Spann of Winfield, Alabama had been two years at CIA, seven in the Marine Corps before that -- seen here in his high school yearbook photo.
In a statement, CIA director George Tenet said: "Mike fell bringing freedom to a distant people while defending freedom for all of us here at home. Mike Spann was an American hero," said Tenet, "a man who showed passion for his country and his agency through his selfless courage."
CIA officials say they believe Spann was killed Sunday, at the beginning of the prison uprising in Mazar-e Sharif, which has since been suppressed. But it wasn't until daybreak Wednesday that U.S. officials were able to get to the part of the prison fortress where his body lay.
At the time of his death, Spann was in the fortress gathering intelligence from Taliban prisoners, U.S. officials say, about Taliban intentions and whereabouts. He was armed when he died.
There are 78 stars on the wall in the lobby at the CIA, one for each CIA officer killed in the line of duty since the agency's inception in 1947. A 79th star will now be carved.
At the White House, the spokesman noted that this was not the first death in this war.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This battle began September 11th. There may be more injuries, there may be more deaths, and the president regrets each and every one.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Spann was part of the special activities of the CIA. These are covert operations specialists, often former military personnel, adept with firearms, trained to cope with dangerous missions. Alongside U.S. troops, there are hundreds of CIA officers all over Afghanistan, risking their lives to wrap up al Qaeda and the Taliban -- Wolf.
BLITZER: OK, David Ensor, hundreds of CIA operatives operating in Afghanistan. Thank you very much. And this note, we are standing by for a statement from the father of Johnny Spann in Alabama. When the father comes out and makes that statement we of course will bring that to you live.
Joining us now to talk more about the CIA in Afghanistan, its role, precisely what it's doing, is David Isby of "Jane's Intelligence Review." Thank you very much once again, David, for coming in.
DAVID ISBY, "JANE'S INTELLIGENCE REVIEW": Thank you.
BLITZER: Give us a sense of the nature of the CIA operation in Afghanistan right now.
ISBY: Well, there's a very broad spectrum of that. This special activities division is a new operation. It's almost more paramilitary, created in the wake of the problems they had in Latin America in the 1980s. So they actually can wear uniforms, operate, where soldiers would normally do.
If this was an American army, it would have been military NCOs, intelligence specialists, interrogating prisoners. Since you didn't have an American army, you needed to interrogate these prisoners quickly to get human intelligence -- human, while it was still fresh, possibly as to the location of bin Laden, al Qaeda forces, or arms caches.
BLITZER: I was going to say, we have a map showing where the incident occurred. Let's go to it here, up in Mazar-e Sharif. This is where the prison was. The prison, where, there was uprising, during the course of that, where Johnny Spann was. Do you have any sense of what he was specifically doing there?
ISBY: From the press accounts, he had gone there to interview prisoners, to get human intelligence from them. Indeed, the prisoners have not been -- not properly treated, because this is not a real army, so (UNINTELLIGIBLE) not have been searched, segregated, the way they would have been if they were captured by a real army. So they still had the weapons.
They may even thought he was a journalist. And that might have inspired the violence, afraid that they were going to be interviewed and then broadcast widely, as had been done throughout the month of October with previous non-Afghan prisoners held by anti-Taliban forces.
BLITZER: And in Mazar-e Sharif at that prison, it was a pretty bloody uprising. Give us a sense of what was going on.
ISBY: Basically, the prisoners had not been thoroughly searched. There were weapons in the prison. This is a thorough prison, built to keep the Russians out as the fortress in the 1880s, so very thick walls. There was a very bloody -- many of these people were either desperate, they were afraid they'd be killed, or even -- many of them if they returned to their home countries, things would go very bad with them there. So these people were either desperately trying to head for the hills or go out in a blaze of martyrdom and glory.
BLITZER: As you know, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld yesterday said the U.S. military struck a compound where they thought perhaps there could be some significant al Qaeda or Taliban leadership. That didn't happen.
We have video of the actual strike. Apparently Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, is OK, based on his representatives. What do we know about this operation?
ISBY: Well, this is one of the advantages of having a presence now in the south of Afghanistan. We have been apparently getting good human intelligence from the Afghans. What you're probably seeing now is probably from one of the predator or global hawk UAB, unmanned air vehicles, which was able to confirm this.
Because you don't want to strike based on an unconfirmed report. And this information could now be relayed in near real time to an F-16 or even a B-52, while in flight from Diego Garcia.
BLITZER: One of the areas where they think Osama bin Laden -- the U.S. intelligence community -- thinks Osama bin Laden is over here near Tora Bora, up here near Jalalabad in the northeastern part of Afghanistan. Down here, perhaps around Kandahar, is another area.
But an Afghan cameraman went into one of the caves up there -- I think we have some video -- that we can give our viewers a sense of what the caves are like. Look at this video. Tell us what we are seeing.
ISBY: This, again, may well have been a bomb shelter during the war against the Soviets -- a lot of these created. Some of them are actually just improvised. Others, especially those further south near the Pakistani border, were created due to massive construction projects. This may have been a natural cave, a basement, an old irrigation system, that's been improved, probably originally as a bomb shelter.
BLITZER: It looks sort of primitive right now. I take it there are some others that are more sophisticated. David Isby, I want to thank you once again for joining us. Your insight is always appreciated.
ISBY: Thank you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much. And we'll have more assessment on the war in Afghanistan tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, here in the CNN war room. Will the Northern Alliance's actions lead to another civil war? Join me then.
Also, you can participate by going to my Web site, cnn.com/wolf. Click on "Send Questions." I'll try to get as many of those questions answered by our panel as possible. You can also of course read my daily on-line column. Today's focus: the danger to journalists covering this war -- indeed, all wars.
Meanwhile, the Bush administration today took a key step in combating the possible use of smallpox as a terrorist weapon. A short while ago, the Bush administration signed a contract to buy some 155 million additional doses of smallpox vaccine, at a cost of $428 million. The move will bring the nation's stockpile of smallpox vaccine to nearly 290 million doses.
Joining us for more on this story, CNN medical correspondent, Rhonda Rowland. Rhonda, first of all, I want to warn our viewers that some of the video that will be showing in your report may be disturbing. But give us a sense of what the nature -- what happened today? Give us some perspective. RHONDA ROWLAND, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right, first of all, what happened today is just the announcement that a canvas, along with Baxter Pharmaceutical, will be making the next supply of these smallpox vaccines to reach the total that's needed in order protect all Americans. So that's what was announced today, that this contract has been awarded.
And a canvas had already agreed to produce 54 million doses. So it's the same company, along with Baxter, that will now produce the smallpox vaccine stockpile.
BLITZER: What do you know about the actual possibility that they may decide at some point to go ahead and use this vaccine?
ROWLAND: Well, all the officials so far are saying that they would not use mass vaccinations. That is, they would not require that everyone go in and be immunized against smallpox. However, they want to have enough on hand in case there is a widespread outbreak.
Instead, what health officials say is if there was a case of smallpox, they would use something that's called ring vaccination. That is, they would find the person obviously who is infected with smallpox, determine who their contacts were, their close contacts, those who have come within 6.5 feet of them, and they would vaccinate those individuals. So they would be able to form a ring around that infected person, and try to contain the spread.
And, Wolf, this kind of technique was used in the 1970s during the global eradication of smallpox, and it was very, very effective. Also, another reason why they are not advocating mass vaccinations, is because there have been side effects. This vaccine can be deadly in some cases. It can also cause some severe side effects. So again, they want to have it on hand it to use, when and if it would be needed.
BLITZER: If somebody is exposed to this smallpox, they can get the vaccine, but they have to get it rather quickly. How quickly?
ROWLAND: They have about a four-day window. What's important to know here is that smallpox is only contagious when a victim develops a characteristic rash -- only at that particular time. So during that time, if somebody is exposed to someone, they have a four-day window where they can get the vaccine and be protected.
And this vaccine is very unusual, in that you only need one shot and it gives you almost immediate protection. So that is very, very encouraging.
BLITZER: Rhonda Rowland, our medical correspondent, thank you very much.
And joining us now for some additional insight into this latest development, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institutes of Health -- the allergy and infectious disease program over there. Dr. Fauci, thank you so much for joining us. I know you just briefed the news media on this. Let's get right to the issue. The CDC has a plan to go ahead and give these vaccinations. At what point does that happen?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: Again, the vaccinations that they have a plan to go ahead with is what happens if you have a mini outbreak. It is called a ring containment. It's not a massive vaccination for the entire population. The CDC plan that you've heard about is, for example, if there is a case of two or three that we isolate here in Washington, D.C., we would identify those cases, isolate them, quarantine the area and do a ring vaccination around the contacts of that person.
BLITZER: How big is that ring?
FAUCI: Well, it just depends what the contacts. I mean, obviously if you have someone whose movements were well-documented, you know the people that they came into contact with. And then there's a secondary ring around the contacts of the contacts. That has historically proven very successful in putting down any outbreak of epidemics that occur, if they are unifocal, or focal in a few places.
BLITZER: There hasn't been a case of smallpox in the United States, I take it, since 1949. Worldwide, it was eradicated in 1980. There are no plans right now to start giving anyone, except perhaps a few small workers involved in this...
FAUCI: Right, first responders.
BLITZER: ... of this vaccine, right.
FAUCI: That's absolutely correct, because right now, and into whatever process we get into, we'll have to balance the risk with the benefit. We know that this is a vaccine that is not without some risks and some serious toxicities. Obviously, if you're in the middle of exposure in an epidemic, you're going to have to balance that risk benefit one way or the other.
But there are no plans at all, right now, to preemptively vaccinate people when we get those doses.
BLITZER: Just to have it on stock.
FAUCI: Just to have it there in case we need it.
BLITZER: And I've seen all sorts of numbers about how many people would have a negative reaction to this vaccine, and would, in fact, die. What is the best estimate on that front?
Again, there are different studies, but it's somewhere within the range of one to maybe four or five people per million who get the vaccine who would actually go on to die from it. There are scores to hundreds of people per million who might wind up having variable degrees of reaction, of dissemination of the smallpox site to other parts of the body. Some people can get incephalitis.
So although there are unusual, uncommon, and even rare toxicities, they are serious enough that you have to think carefully before you decide on a preemptive immunization program.
BLITZER: There are only two known sites in the world where we believe there is a smallpox -- that it does exist: in Atlanta at the CDC, as well as in Russia. But is it realistic to assume that a terrorist could get ahold of this?
FAUCI: Well, I'm not concerned, and public health and law enforcement officials are really not concerned about a terrorist getting ahold of the vials that are now well guarded in Russia and in the United States. We know, and it's very clear from defectors from the Soviet Union, that decades ago the Soviets were making large amounts of smallpox to be used as a bioweapon. The critical issue is, did any of that get into the hands of the wrong people, and if so, where is it now?
So you must presume -- although the legal stocks are supposed to be in two places, namely Russia and the United States -- there is the possibility that we have to assume does exist, that there are other areas of the country which we don't know about, in the world -- other countries that might actually have it.
BLITZER: I'm told you've been working on an AIDS drug that potentially could have some benefit in this whole area of smallpox?
FAUCI: Absolutely. There's a drug that was developed initially to combat an infection that HIV-infected individuals get. It's called cidofovir, and the infection (UNINTELLIGIBLE) virus, a relatively common infection in people with advanced HIV disease.
And looking in the test tube and an animal model, it has rather impressive activity against pox viruses. So we're now pursuing that as a possible therapy, in case we need to use it.
BLITZER: And just very briefly, remind our viewers, smallpox, unlike anthrax, is a lot more dangerous.
FAUCI: Big, big difference. And that is that it can be easily transmitted from one person to another, whereas anthrax is not transmitted from one person to another.
BLITZER: One is contagious, the other is not.
FAUCI: Indeed.
BLITZER: Doctor Anthony Fauci, always good to talk to you.
FAUCI: Thank you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much. And if you have questions, more questions, and perhaps some concerns about smallpox, check out the biological and chemical weapons explainer at cnn.com. You'll learn about the virus, its symptoms and how it's spread. The AOL keyword is CNN.
American rights versus American safety: the debate is building as the Bush administration adopts tough new anti-terror tactics. And later, Henry Kissinger's commercial contribution after the terrorist attacks. But he also has many views of the U.S. failures and successes, as "America Strikes Back." The former secretary of state will join us live. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. We're standing by for a statement from the father of the first U.S. combat casualty in Afghanistan. The CIA operative, Johnny Michael Spann, was killed in action in Mazar-e Sharif in northern Afghanistan. His father is expected to emerge from this home in Alabama shortly, make a statement. When that happens, we will of course go there live, bring that to you live.
Meanwhile, the president is facing rising criticism over his decision to allow military tribunals to try suspected terrorists. But according to recent polls, a majority of Americans support the president's move. CNN national correspondent Bruce Morton reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Senate judiciary committee is exploring recent administration actions authorizing military tribunals for foreigners, instead of regular trials in civil courts, asserting it can sometimes eavesdrop on conversations with lawyers. Justice says, "sure we can."
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Every step that we have taken satisfies the Constitution and federal law as it existed both before and after September 11th.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: And there is a very heavy burden...
MORTON: The senators don't all agree.
SPECTER: It was surprising to me that the attorney general did not consult with any member of this committee.
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: There really are serious questions as to the legitimacy and the effectiveness, and even the constitutionality of several of the steps that the administration is carrying out.
MORTON: The president has defenders, too, of course.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm confident, had you not moved aggressively, that we may well have had additional Americans dead, maimed and wounded in this country, as a result of further terrorist acts.
MORTON: Many senators just wished they had been asked. SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I would just urge greater consultation with us, for the good of the country and for the good of the product.
MORTON: The expert witnesses, former attorneys general, professors, disagree among themselves.
WILLIAM BARR, FORMER BUSH ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think there is no doubt that the president was well within his constitutional authority to promulgate this order, as his predecessors took similar steps.
NEAL KATYAL, FORMER CLINTON JUSTICE DEP'T: The president's order for military tribunals and the attorney general's attorney/client regulation both contain serious constitutional flaws.
MORTON: Critics say military tribunals aren't fair, they're secret, proof beyond a reasonable doubt may not be the standard, dubious evidence may get in, there's no appeal. Backers say we've done it before, did it with Nazi saboteurs in World War II, and the Supreme Court upheld it.
And the voters? A National Public Radio/Kaiser/Kennedy School of Government poll shows that 64 percent favor military tribunals for noncitizens suspected of terror, while just 27 percent oppose them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're under a war situation now, and things are different.
MORTON: And the senators? The real judiciary main event will come next week, when John Ashcroft, a committee member when he was a senator, returns as attorney general to defend what his administration has done.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Joining us now to debate this very contentious issue, the Republican Congressman Scott McInnis, of Colorado, and James Zogby, of the Arab-American Institute here in Washington.
Let me begin with you, Mr. Zogby. Tell us why you believe President Bush and the attorney general are wrong.
JAMES ZOGBY, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Well, look, there are a whole number of issues that concern me. Military tribunals, certainly, because of the standard that I believe we are setting. We're setting a very bad example for countries around the world, that we have held to a higher standard -- that is, the standard of due process.
I also believe that this investigation is going awry. And I'm concerned about how it is going. We're breaking down the bonds of trust we need with the very community we need to be working with to root out terrorism and to deal with the problem of getting the information we need. The effort to, for example, do investigation by press release -- this 5,000 folks who are being brought in around the country, is simply bad police tactics -- and concerns me, because I think we are moving down the wrong path here.
BLITZER: Congressman McInnis, you disagree. Tell us why.
REP. SCOTT MCINNIS (R), COLORADO: Well, let me make a couple of points. First of all, unlike what Mr. Zogby has said, these military tribunals have a long precedent in American legal history, starting with George Washington. They were utilized by Abraham Lincoln, they were utilized by Roosevelt, and have been utilized in other times in our history. And on at least two occasions, they have been brought before the United States Supreme Court, and the United States Supreme Court has found the constitutionality. So certainly, they're constitutional.
Now, I would have agreed, perhaps, with Mr. Zogby on September 10th, but I don't agree with him from September 12, on. In regards to these 5,000 people, I think Mr. Zogby needs to stand corrected. They are not 5,000 people being brought in...
BLITZER: Gentlemen, I want to interrupt for a moment. Unfortunately, there is a statement that's about to be made from the father of the CIA officer who was killed in Mazar-e Sharif. He's about to be introduced. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have come down here to help the family at this difficult time. So Johnny Spann is going to make a statement, and then maybe answer a few brief questions. And I appreciate your respect for the family at this time.
JOHNNY SPANN, FATHER OF JOHNNY MICHAEL SPANN: First of all, I want to say, on behalf of all of my family, my entire family, that we appreciate all of the expressions of sympathy that we have received from everyone around the country. Our son Mike was in Afghanistan on assignment with the Central Intelligence Agency. He gave his life in the line of work, in the line of duty, during a prison riot at a fortress near Mazar-e Sharif.
He had an extensive career serving our nation. First, as a Marine Corps officer, and then as a CIA officer. When he decided to leave the military service to work for the CIA, he told me he did so because he felt that he would be able to make the world a better place for us to live. We recalled him saying, "Someone has got to do the things that no one else wants to do." That is exactly what he was doing in Afghanistan.
And we're proud of his dedication and his service to our great nation. Mike was a loyal and patriotic American. And he loved his country very much. He was a cherished son, he was an amazing brother, a devoted father, and a loving husband. And our family wants the world to know that we are very proud of our son, Mike. And we consider him a hero. Thank you.
QUESTION: John, obviously we know him as a CIA operative. Can you tell us a little bit more about the Mike that you knew, the one that you saw grow up, get married and have children? SPANN: Mike was an ordinary type of a boy. I would think he'd be much like any of us that grew up, in Winfield, or any of the other cities around the country. Mike was never the kind of person that wanted a lot of attention. He never did things to get attention. And as a result, you know, he wound up in a line of work where a lot of the things he did, he received no attention for.
A lot of things you didn't get the gratification for until something like this happens. But Mike was always a hard worker. And, of course, every father is going to say this about his own son. I realize that. But I'm very proud of Mike, more than I could ever make you understand.
(CROSSTALK)
SPANN: Sir?
QUESTION: Did you realize that he was in Afghanistan until you got the news earlier...
SPANN: Yes, sir, I knew he was there.
QUESTION: Some people say that they love the country, but yet Mike stood up and did what he felt was the right thing. Has he always been like that as a young boy and as a young man?
SPANN: Mike grew up -- his favorite words to me was, "That is the right thing to do, daddy. This is the right thing to do." He was always like that.
QUESTION: Mr. Spann, the loss of anyone's son (OFF-MIKE) conflict is regrettable and is terrible. Your son being the first to die in combat, in a post-September 11 world in which this nation was struck, does that have special deeper significance?
SPANN: I really don't know how to answer that question. I'm his father. And it couldn't hurt me any worse whether he was the first one or the 50th one, I guess. I don't know if that's what you are asking me or not. But there again, I am just going to say I am very proud of what Mike stood for and his loyalty to his country and the loyalty to the people he worked are for and the things that he did.
QUESTION: He stood up in the aftermath of the death of some 5,000 people.
SPANN: Yes.
QUESTION: Does that carry greater significance for Americans
(CROSSTALK)
SPANN: I think it should. I think it should carry some more significance. Of course, we had people all over the world that stood up after this happened in New York. All the people in New York stood up and did great things, too. It just shows what Americans are like. This country is a great place to live. QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
SPANN: I haven't talked to the president yet, no.
QUESTION: Mr. Spann, he has young children. You obviously will want to share a lot about him. What will you tell them when it is time, when it appropriate, about their father?
SPANN: We have already told his oldest daughter, who is 9 years old. And, of course, she knows what kind of father he was. And we told her exactly what he was doing. He was out there fighting for his country for our freedom so that we could all do the things that we want to do, so you could stand up here and ask me questions and take pictures of me.
QUESTION: Mr. Spann, how (OFF-MIKE) that apparently these Taliban troops were not properly searched for weapons?
SPANN: I don't really feel like I know enough about that. The news says -- the news media, of what I see on TV, says they weren't properly searched. I don't know. I wasn't there. And I'm sure that after they do their research on it, they will find out if they were or they weren't. And it is not going to change the fact that my son is dead.
QUESTION: Mr. Spann, people in town have said that Mike wanted to do this kind of work ever since he was a young boy or was a young man. Can you talk a little bit about that? Is that the case? And why was that the case?
SPANN: Yes.
Even in high school, he told all of his friends. Four of his friends came by today to see me and made those same comments, that even at 16 years old, they told me that he was the only one in their class that knew what he was wanting to do and what he was going to do when he got out of school. And after he got out of college -- he attended college at Auburn -- and when he left there, he went to the Marine Corps and stayed for eight years, and then on into the CIA.
QUESTION: But specifically, did he want to do intelligence work or...
SPANN: He always talked about intelligence work, FBI. He didn't know for sure which one, but in those fields.
QUESTION: And what was it about those fields that appealed to him so much (OFF-MIKE)
SPANN: I guess it was the type of person he was. He liked probably the excitement. And maybe that was his character.
QUESTION: Johnny, can you talk little bit about (OFF-MIKE)
SPANN: We live in a wonderful community. And everybody has just been really good. I couldn't ask for anybody to be any more compassionate than people have been to us. And most everyone has showed a lot of sympathy and respected our privacy. And that's very important. I have never gone through anything like this before. And privacy is a very important thing for your family, especially when you have got some young children involved.
And -- but this town has been real good to us.
QUESTION: And this may sound like a real strange question, but what do you do after this? What is next?
SPANN: I don't know yet. We will make it through. I don't know. Mike wouldn't want me to sit down and throw the towel in. You know, he has got three young kids, two girls and a son. And we are going to have to be involved in helping get them raised and being sure that they have the kind of life that he had. And, yes, we will do whatever we have to do.
QUESTION: Mr. Spann, you said that your son shunned the limelight. Yet would he be surprised by this tremendous outpouring from the community here in Winfield as well as all of these people here?
SPANN: No, he knew how people in Winfield were. And he knew how to, our friends -- a small town like this, everybody here knows everybody. And everybody takes care of everybody. And he wouldn't be surprised this is the way that we have been treated. I don't think so. He wouldn't be surprised.
QUESTION: People are calling him a hero here in town. People all over the country are calling him a hero. How would you characterize him?
SPANN: As the last statement that I read: a loving person, a dedicated person, a loyal person, a patriotic person, and a hero. He is a hero to me. If he no one to nobody else, he is to me.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) understand that Mike had, besides the three children, two others from a previous marriage. Has there been contact with them?
SPANN: No, you're -- that's wrong information. He's only got three children.
QUESTION: How old are they?
SPANN: Nine, 4, and 6 months.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
SPANN: No, they don't live here. I don't know at this time if I want to disclose where the location that they actually live at, because they don't need any kind of publicity right now. So...
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) ever difficult not being able to talk about what your son...
SPANN: I'm sorry. I can't hear you.
QUESTION: As a father, was it ever difficult not being able to talk about what your son did? Many parents like to do that.
SPANN: It's always difficult not to be able to brag about your son when you are real proud of him and you know he's doing things that everybody else should know about and should be proud of him, too. I guess, yes, it would difficult not to. But, for his safety, you have to learn to control those things.
And that's one of the things that was so concerning to us yesterday, because we knew that our son was in a bad situation, but we had not -- we did not -- he was not confirmed dead. But yet, when I asked everyone to please don't put this on the news, please, you don't have to say he's in the CIA, because his life was still at stake. If he hadn't already -- I understand right now that he was probably already dead before yesterday.
But, you know, had he not been dead, and everybody getting on the news media and in the papers and saying Mike Spann was a CIA operative, and if those folks over there had been able to receive those transmissions, I feel like they would have shot him if they hadn't already shot him. They would have killed him if he wasn't already dead. And so sometimes I think that people need to realize that, you know, there is a time for everything.
You can wait sometimes. And sometimes you need to speak. And sometimes you need to shut up. And I don't have to tell you that I probably feel a little angry about that, because I felt that I wasn't getting any help from some of the news media to try to get my son out if he was alive, because they were doing things and saying things on TV and on the radio and in the newspapers that was putting his life at more risk.
And I really think that the people in America ought to think about that. And when something like this happens again, they ought to consider what they do and what they say before they do it.
QUESTION: What time did you got confirmation?
SPANN: Approximately 11:00 last night.
QUESTION: And can you tell us little about his time in the CIA, how long ago did he join and anything you -- any broad outlines you could give us of the type of work he did or postings he had?
SPANN: After he joined the CIA?
QUESTION: Right. When did he join?
SPANN: Approximately two years ago.
QUESTION: And what -- do you have a sense of what he has done since then?
SPANN: No, not really. I know he traveled a lot, but I don't know any specific things about what he did, no.
QUESTION: And how long had he been in Afghanistan?
SPANN: Approximately six weeks.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) can you tell us about the last time he was home, any conversations you had with him? Did you get an uneasy feeling when you found out he was going over there?
SPANN: Any time I knew Mike was leaving the country -- I am a father, so I got uneasy feelings, but I guess none no more than I would normally have.
QUESTION: Do you blame anyone for his death?
SPANN: Osama bin Laden.
QUESTION: Sir, what would you do with him when he was home? Like, what, did you guys go fishing or what? How did you spend time together?
SPANN: Well, we did a lot of things. We were like a typical American family. We might go to the golf course. Or we might play in the pool. Or we might play out in the yard and play ball with the kids, or lay on the sofa and watch TV or play cards or play dominoes. It's just a normal American family. There's nothing special about us.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
SPANN: I'm sorry. I can't hear you.
QUESTION: How much had he been back here since he went to the Marines?
SPANN: Not a lot. He spent three years in Okinawa before he came back to the States. And he was stationed in North Carolina. And a couple of times a year, he would come down and stay a week or so. And, of course, we would go up and see them quite often.
But, you know, it's normal, normal things.
QUESTION: Mr. Spann, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Johnny Spann, the father of Mike Spann, the CIA operative who was killed in Afghanistan at the prison uprising in Mazar-e-Sharif, the first combat casualty -- U.S. combat casualty in Afghanistan -- the father, Johnny Spann, speaking lovingly of his son, only 32 years old, only in the CIA for the past two years after spending eight years as a U.S. Marine Corps officer, a graduate of Auburn University, the father of three. Mike Spann now is dead.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Welcome back.
Joining me now with a unique perspective on America's new war is a man who has played a pivotal role in both during the Vietnam War as well as the Cold War, the former secretary of state, Dr. Henry Kissinger. He joins us now live from our New York bureau.
Dr. Kissinger, thank you very much for joining us. And I know you have been around many negotiating tables. This table in Bonn, Germany, just outside of Bonn, where the various Afghan factions, except the Taliban, are meeting, how difficult of a process do they have coming up with some sort of unified government for a new Afghanistan?
HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: They have a tremendous task because, in America, we think there is a central government that gives orders and that is legitimate and that everybody obeys.
In Afghanistan, you are talking about a country in which local rulers are dominant and in which the central government, except on occasion, really is sort of a formal structure which permits the various tribes to be practically autonomous.
(CROSSTALK)
KISSINGER: And I don't think they are going to be capable of generating a government whose writ will run throughout country.
BLITZER: And I want to show our viewers precisely the nature of how diverse and split Afghanistan is. We have a map that underscores some of the issues -- here, of course, the Pashtun, the largest individual group, in red over here. But there are Tajiks over here, mostly in the northeastern corner, and Uzbeks and Hazaras throughout the country.
(CROSSTALK)
KISSINGER: Excuse me.
BLITZER: I was going to say, this is a country that is deeply divided, even if you exclude the Taliban as a movement.
KISSINGER: But then the Pashtuns are divided between various groups, so that, to get a government that is going to restore order throughout the whole country is going to be very difficult.
BLITZER: As you know, in Bonn today at the talks, the Northern Alliance representative said no outside peacekeepers are really needed in Afghanistan; the Northern Alliance can get that job done -- of course, very controversial because many of the groups, especially large numbers of the Pashtun, don't trust the Northern Alliance. How does the U.S. deal with this potential problem?
KISSINGER: Well, I am deeply convinced that we should not maintain significant forces in Afghanistan for an extended period of time. We should do our job of going after the terrorists, breaking up the Taliban, and then turn it over to some kind of U.N. organization or an organization of neighboring countries.
And I would -- I'm afraid that any peacekeeping force one puts into the country will, sooner or later, get under attack. Afghanistan is united, generally, only when there are foreigners in the country. And then they fight, heroically, to expel the foreigner, after which they will start fighting among each other. That's been the pattern for many centuries, I would say.
BLITZER: So, who should come in and patrol this peace: the United Nations? Is that the role that the U.N. should be playing?
KISSINGER: I think one should -- I don't think anybody will be able to patrol this if he's not willing to take continuing casualties. And even then, the Russians had 100,000 combat troops that were fighting for 10 years to pacify the country, and they didn't succeed.
They should create a loose -- some sort of a compromise structure in Kabul, recognizing that it will be primarily useful for the distribution of aid, and that that will be its principal power. I think one could have U.N. observers throughout the country that could report about extreme violations. And the United States' role, in the military field, should be confined to prevent the recurrence of a terrorist center.
I am not optimistic that it is possible to place a military force of anybody into Afghanistan to pacify the country.
BLITZER: And, as you know, the neighbors of Pakistan, especially the -- excuse me, of Afghanistan -- especially the Pakistanis and the Iranians, and the Russians, to a certain degree, are looking very nervously at what should emerge. How do you deal with the concerns of these neighbors, especially the Pakistanis, who have no great love for the Northern Alliance?
KISSINGER: Well, the most creative thing that has occurred to me, and that others have mentioned it, to create a so-called contact group of neighboring countries. It would be Russia, Pakistan, India, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and plus maybe the United States and India. Well, I don't -- we don't have to tell -- the number -- but it's a group of 10 that make themselves responsible for reconstruction, dealing with starvation and with human suffering.
The human suffering may be of a magnitude to keep the conflict between the various regions under some sort of control. And that is most useful role that outsiders can play at this moment. I think an attempt to pacify the country by outside force is going to lead to a resurrection of a very bitter conflict.
BLITZER: All right, Dr. Kissinger, stand by. I want to continue our conversation.
I want to get into the issue of some of the other challenges facing the United States, including the issue of Iraq. Should the Iraqis be targeted? In addition, we will also talk with Dr. Kissinger about his starring role in New York City's comeback campaign.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
We are continuing our conversation with the former secretary of state, Dr. Henry Kissinger.
Dr. Kissinger, the Bush administration, especially the president in recent days, had some strong words, some strong warnings against the Iraqis, Saddam Hussein. Is it time for the U.S. to plan air strikes against Iraq?
KISSINGER: I don't want to get into the issue of what military strategy ought to be used against Iraq. The issue that the president was raising seemed to me to be this: We have seen what can happen as a result of biological warfare in this country. We know that Iraq is producing biological weapons.
We know that they have used chemical weapons against their neighbors and against their own people. And the question that the president has opened is: Can one live with a leader and with a country that we know is producing these weapons, we know has used them, is in total violation of U.N. inspection requirements? Or should we insist on their enforcing -- of their carrying out the U.N. inspection?
If we decide to try to enforce the U.N. inspection or to enforce it, whether you use -- how we use airpower -- of course, airpower would be an important part. But it isn't just the idea of using airpower against Iraq in the abstract. There is a very specific issue that we will have to deal with very soon.
BLITZER: And that's the U.N. weapons inspectors, an issue, unfortunately, we are not going to have a lot of time to talk about right now.
But before I let you go, a lot of viewers noted and they smiled when they saw that video, that commercial, that you did trying to help New York win back some of the tourist industry. You were sliding into home plate over there over at Yankee Stadium. And you are a big Yankee fan. What made you want to do this commercial?
KISSINGER: Well, I thought that what Mayor Giuliani was doing to restore the spirit of New York was tremendous. I think New York has gone through a lot, but it has shown tremendous capacities of revival. And when I was given this opportunity. I was honored. And, in addition, it got me on to the field in Yankee Stadium, for which there would never be another legitimate reason.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: You looked pretty good sliding into home plate, although I assume there was maybe a little video magic that occurred in the seconds building up between third and home plate. But...
KISSINGER: There was a little magic there.
BLITZER: We admired your guts.
Thank you very much, Secretary Kissinger, for joining us.
KISSINGER: And thank you. Always a pleasure to be here.
BLITZER: Thank you.
And coming up: CNN gets the royal treatment. We will show you why her royal highness, the queen, came visiting today.
But, first, let's go to New York and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" that begins at the top of the hour.
Lou, you always get the royal treatment. What do you have in store for us tonight?
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Absolutely, Wolf. I can't believe that you doubted that that was Henry Kissinger sliding in.
Coming up next on "MONEYLINE": The Pentagon says U.S. warplanes today attacked a Taliban compound. A top Taliban official, however, says spiritual leader Mullah Mohammed Omar remains alive. We will have a live report for you from Afghanistan on that and more.
In Germany, talks are continuing about forming a post-Taliban government in Afghanistan. But just who will handle security in Kabul emerges as a major problem. We will have a live report for you on that from Germany. And ahead of the holiday season, I will be talking with the head of the Salvation Army, John Busby, about the Salvation Army, its fund-raising efforts and its hard work -- all of that and a lot more coming up at the top of the hour.
Wolf will be right back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A royal opening for CNN's new London bureau: Queen Elizabeth did the honors and got a tour of the multimillion dollar facility from top CNN officials, including our parent company officials from AOL Time Warner. It was part of the queen's media day, an outreach to the news organization by the royal family, which knows a thing or two about being the subject of news courage. Very nice.
My conversation, by the way, with Jim Zogby and Congressman Scott McInnis on the Justice Department's handling of the war on terror was cut short. We will try to get that back to you as soon as we possibly can.
I'll be back in one hour with much more coverage from here in the CNN "War Room." Tonight's focus: the hunt for Osama bin Laden.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
CNN's coverage of America's new war continues with "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins right now.
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