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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

CIA Officer First U.S. Combat Casualty in Afghanistan

Aired November 28, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: A CIA officer is the first known American killed in combat in Afghanistan.

The U.S. targets suspected Taliban and al Qaeda hideouts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: I think we're always going to be hopeful that the senior leadership will be in one of these locations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Shifting allegiances: Will his former allies help the U.S. find Osama bin Laden? Can warlords make peace and build a new Afghanistan? We'll go live to Afghanistan and the Pentagon.

And I'll speak live with Haron Amin (ph) of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance, former Special Ops officer, Kelly McCann, and CNN military analyst, retired General Wesley Clark, former NATO supreme commander, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. U.S. military leaders like to say the noose around Osama bin Laden is tightening. But as far as we know, the al Qaeda leader remains very much at large. That's also the case when it comes to the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar.

Our focus tonight: The U.S. manhunt; when will it end? But first, let's check the latest developments in the war against terrorism.

We begin with the first confirmed American combat death in Afghanistan. Mike Spann, seen here in a High School photo, was a CIA operations officer. He had been gathering intelligence from Taliban prisoners at a compound near Mazar-e-Sharif, and was killed during their bloody uprising. Spann joined the CIA two and a half years ago after serving in the Marines Corps.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNNY SPANN, FATHER OF MIKE SPANN: He felt that he would be able to make the world a better place for us to live. We recall him saying, someone has got to do the things that no one else wants to do, and that's exactly what he was doing in Afghanistan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Officials say they believe Spann was killed Sunday. His body was recovered today.

U.S. war planes today pounded Taliban targets in Kandahar to break the chain of command of the Taliban and as Qaeda network. This as the Pentagon assesses other search and destroy missions. CNN military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, joins us once again live from the Pentagon with all of that -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the U.S. is continuing to build up its forces on the ground in Afghanistan. More than 800 Marines are now on the ground as the U.S. heads for force of over 1000.

Meanwhile the airstrikes continue to strike at leadership targets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): video from a U.S. Air Force F-16, shows a shower of satellite-guided 2,000 pound bombs dropped from a single B-1 bomber, destroying a compound southeast of Kandahar, Monday. Before the strike, U.S. intelligence had identified the complex as a likely location for Taliban and al Qaeda leadership, including perhaps, Taliban leader, Mohammed Omar.

But by the morning after, Taliban officials were insisting Omar was safe in Kandahar. The Pentagon says it will continue to keep the pressure on.

STUFFLEBEEM: If we break the leadership of the Taliban and break the leadership of al Qaeda, there is very, or there is reduced emphasis, or reduced motivation for troops to stay loyal to the cause and continue to fight.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon also released video of what appeared to be an ill-fated attempt by Taliban forces to attack U.S. Marines as they first arrived in Afghanistan Sunday. A column of Taliban tanks and armored vehicles was wiped out by U.S. Navy F-14's, after a J- stars surveillance plane spotted them advancing on the Marines location. The Pentagon doesn't know what plan it may have thwarted.

STUFFLEBEEM: A little impolite, but I don't think we'll ever know now. We did not have intentions. We only had just the physical indications that this column was formed up and moving from the southwestern part of the country eastward.

MCINTYRE: As the Marines continue to bring in troops and equipment on the ground, more than 100 U.S. warplanes a day are flying combat missions. But most planes are returning without dropping bombs, an indication that good targets are becoming harder to find. However U.S. bombers are striking the cave and tunnel complexes around Jalalabad, an area where Osama bin Laden is suspected of hiding.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

More forces are on the way. The Navy says tonight, that another 2,000 Marines are scheduled to depart San Diego on Saturday aboard the U.S.S. Bonham Richard, and two of its support ships to go relieve some of the Marines there at some point in the future. That is departing a little early, and about two dozen Army soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division have been moved from Uzbekistan to the Airport at Mazar-e- Sharif. They will be providing some security there while U.S. forces on the ground assess the airport and help other nations prepare to step up the pace of humanitarian relief -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie,that Taliban convoy that looked like it was going to attack the Marines in the southern part of Afghanistan, is that seen as an isolated incident, or are the Marines bracing for more?

MCINTYRE: I thing they do think that it is an isolated incident. One of the interesting things about that is that, you know, 10, 20 years ago in warfare, you might have been able to get away with that loading up and heading out, try to engage these forces as they landed, but with the high-tech advantage the United States has, particularly with these J-Star planes that can spot moving things on the ground, they never had a chance had a chance to get close to the Marines before the F-14s came and took them out.

It just shows the high-tech advantage the U.S. has. There hasn't been any evidence since then of any threat against the Marines, nor have the Marines, at this point, fired any shots in anger.

BLITZER: OK, Jamie McIntyre, from the Pentagon. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, Afghan factions, apart from the Taliban, have been discussing their country's future at a U.N.-sponsored conference near Bonn, Germany.

The two largest delegations representing the former king of Afghanistan and the Northern Alliance, have agreed on a transitional council, which would set up an interim government. But the Northern Alliance, which controls Kabul, has opposed the idea of an international peacekeeping force. Let's go live to the Afghan capital now, and get the latest from our correspondent there, CNN's Christiane Amanpour -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, indeed, one of the things that the Northern Alliance said over and over again, before going into these talks in Bonn, was that they were willing to discuss seriously a power-sharing agreement. And that appears to be what is going on in Bonn. But they were not willing to entertain the presence of foreign international peace keeping forces in Afghanistan.

This issue has not the yet been discussed, we understand, by the officials in Bonn, at the moment. It is an issue on the table and it will probably be discussed today -- Thursday, that is, in Bonn. The U.N. is saying that they need a peacekeeping force to ensure the delivery of humanitarian aid because the situation in Afghanistan is still not secure enough, the U.N. feels, in order to be able to deliver food and much-needed assistance to the very many people here that need it.

Now, going down to Kandahar, which also the situation there is pretty unclear, as we have been hearing. The representative to Pakistan from the Taliban has, as Jamie and you have been reporting, denied that Mullah Omar was targeted. He says that he is still alive. The BBC is quoting a radio report that Mullah Omar made, saying that they wanted Kandahar to stand firm, and that he was calling on his people not to evacuate and to keep up the fight. Hard for us to confirm how that radio broadcast was made. It certainly wasn't heard anywhere outside of areas under the Taliban control.

In Spin Boldak, a little bit further south from Kandahar, on the Pakistan border, a several-day situation in which the Taliban have offered to surrender, has been stalled by a dispute between the factional tribes down there. Apparently the tribal leaders can't seem to agree on who will take over control if the Taliban do surrender the town of Spin Boldak.

The situation there is still unclear. Whether it develops into a battleground there is still unclear. As for Mazar-e Sharif up in the north, that situation has calmed down, but at great cost. There are dozens if not hundreds of casualties after the bloody prison uprising there and of course, one U.S. intelligence official as you have been reporting, has been now confirmed dead.

The bloody uprising there has been put down. Northern Alliance officials there saying they are in control and, as Jamie just reported, several dozen U.S. Infantry troops have come to the Mazar area apparently to make sure such a Taliban uprising does not happen again -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour. Christiane will have much more on her SPECIAL REPORT: LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN. That comes at the top of the hour here on CNN.

Before Afghanistan can find peace, it will need to achieve some measure of security. That may be underscored by the chaotic prison revolt that took place earlier and took the life of a CIA officer. Will an outside peacekeeping force be necessary? Would U.S. troops be drawn into that role?

Joining me now, here in the CNN WAR ROOM, Haron Amin, once an anti-Soviet fighter, now the representative of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance. Kelly McCann, CEO of Crucible Security, a former Marine Corps Special Ops officer, he's given security and antiterror training to warriors and peacekeepers alike. And CNN military analyst, the former NATO supreme allied commander, retired General Wesley Clark. By the way, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily on-line column.

Let me begin, first of all, with you, General Clark. What went wrong with the CIA officer, Mike Spann, obviously the first U.S. combat casualty, looking back on that incident at Mazar-e sharif at the prison?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FMR. NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: As we know it, right now, nothing he did contributed to this. He was a victim of circumstances. There were interrogations going on, this was very important to interrogate these people, get the information out, and be able to use that information. He was there doing what he should have been doing.

But, something else went wrong. And, as we have heard the reports, these Taliban prisoners basically seized weapons from the guards that were around them. The guards weren't alert enough. They got to an ammunition and weapons storehouse and then they set up a defense in the prison and it was a heck of a fight. He was caught in the middle of this and obviously couldn't get away.

BLITZER: Your people, the Northern Alliance troops, were in charge of that prison. Did they screw up in allowing those weapons to come up and enable that uprising to take place?

HARON AMIN, NORTHERN ALLIANCE REPRESENTATIVE: Well, remember that the al Qaeda the fighters are part of a larger defecting group, or a larger number of prisoners.

We had to distinguish, we had to divide them up into two teams and this group had to go into the fort in Mazar-e-Sharif. They entered -- that was the time for us to effectively disarm them. As we were doing that, they blew themselves up -- and these are suicidal al Qaeda members -- and then took that opportunity -- the machine guns and everything that was around from our people -- seized the opportunity and then started fighting. And then apparently inside the fort, there was also storage of arms and ammunition and then the fighting continued for over three and four days.

BLITZER: You have trained these kinds of special ops officers going into these kinds of situations. What lesson did you learn from this incident involving the first U.S. combat casualty in Afghanistan?

KELLY MCCANN, CEO, CRUCIBLE SECURITY: Well, just listening to Haron right now, I mean, you would you agree, Haron, that the biggest problem in general, of course, is marshaling people. And when you have got people who look not dissimilar and you know that you have got a discernment issue between Afghan-Arab Taliban and Afghan Taliban, that's your first problem. And then you have got the marshaling problem, where the guys on the ground have got to get people on their face. They've got to go through their clothing, through their tunics and all of that stuff and sort out who has got grenades, who has got pistols, who's got what. That wasn't done.

BLITZER: That wasn't done.

CLARK: And they had to do it before they ever got to the prison. As soon as came in contact with the friendly force, the SOPs -- down on the ground, search.

BLITZER: Standard operating procedure, what happened? AMIN: The agreement was that these Taliban had to either choose to fight to the end or they can actually defect. The arrangement that OK, we are going to bring with us these foreign fighters, al Qaeda fighters. We had to reach a point where we had to take these foreign fighters, al Qaeda fighters, into the space to make sure that they could effectively disarm them. It was in this transition that all of this occurred.

MCCANN: You know that, ever present though, is sure, who is going to defect and who is going to give up. But what always is ever present, who is going to fight. And the bottom line is is that you have to got get physical control over people and put them in a little fear because if you don't -- if they feel not like they are in fear, then they are enabled and empowered to do exactly what happened. So, there is little bit of a cultural difference in handling these things. There's a little bit of a military difference on how that...

CLARK: I think that is a training difference because what you are dealing with here are troops who are very strongly motivated but they are not strongly trained as we know how to train our troops.

(CROSSTALK)

We have drills on how to capture prisoners and deal with them.

BLITZER: Our correspondent, David Ensor, says there are hundreds of CIA officers, case officers, operations officers on the ground in addition to the U.S. special operations forces. Couldn't they be more directly involved in helping the Northern Alliance deal with this?

CLARK: We don't know the answer to that because we are not there on the ground to really judge it. But it does take days, weeks and months to train units. And to handle this kind of stress and go from, suddenly you are in an assault and somebody surrenders, then how do you deal with it? How do you search him? How do you segregate them? How do you secure them and get them back to the rear? Who does that? How do you have control of it, communications, reporting of it...

BLITZER: Let's move on. I want to talk about the search for Osama bin Laden. Right now, we are hearing Brent Sadler, our reporter in eastern Afghanistan, reporting that there are Taliban defectors who are coming over. Can they help seriously in this search for al Qaeda leaders, Osama bin Laden, Mullah Omar?

MCCANN: Sure. But remember that intelligence on a battlefield is perishable. So what they knew today, three days old, is not new now. And all you have got to do is walk a couple miles and everything changes. To get that guy is going to be such a closely coordinated operation that you have to have pinpoint time and place predictable intelligence. And in the absence of that, Wolf, it's too difficult to try to do it.

BLITZER: General Clark, we have a question from an e-mailer, one of our viewers, John in Richmond, Virginia: When the U.S. bombs these caves and networks of tunnels, how will we know if we've killed bin Laden or not? CLARK: Well, we won't know directly, but we might know indirectly because you may hear reports about it later on. We are going to be bombing based on information that we have received. We have got information from the Russians and others. We are going to use that information and go after these networks.

However, there is no telling who is actually in that cave. And that's why we need a lot of help from the people in the Northern Alliance. They are the ones who can provide the best information to us.

BLITZER: How close is the Northern Alliance getting to finding Osama bin Laden?

AMIN: As we get information on the ground whatever is being given provided to us by let's say defectors or others because we speak the language. We pass it on to the international coalition. And so far, the reason that the campaign has been so successful on a military parameter is the fact that we have been able to get all this information past the international coalition. And I think on the hunt for Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda organization, that is still the case and we are passing on everything to the...

MCCANN: You know, the best point we were talking about in the green room is he is really a fifth-year target though. I mean, let's remember what this is about. This is about making sure that global terrorism...

BLITZER: You're talking about Osama bin Laden?

MCCANN: No, I'm not specifically.

BLITZER: Well, what does that mean, the fifth-year target?

MCCANN: Well, what I mean is if you look at was the president said, it's global terrorism. Under that is those who protect those who do terrorism. Under that would be Taliban, under them would be al Qaeda, under that would be the leadership of al Qaeda who is Osama bin Laden. You get to him five tiers down.

The bigger plan here, the bigger objective, is what? To make sure that people are not empowered to hurt Americans domestically or abroad.

BLITZER: Let me just bring General Clark in briefly before we take a break. A good start as far as the U.S. would be concerned is getting Osama bin Laden?

CLARK: Well, we have certainly, you know, we have made him the figurehead. But I think what Kelly is saying is very important. We don't want to get so mesmerized by Osama bin Laden that we let the network escape. We want to break this network. He's just part of it.

BLITZER: All right, we are going to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about. When we come back, I will ask Haron Amin why the Northern Alliance doesn't want an outside peacekeeping force inside Afghanistan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Should there be an international peacekeeping force for Afghanistan? Will there be peace to keep?

Let's take a look at a map that shows some of the ethnic diversity inside Afghanistan. Look at this, gentlemen, the Pashtun of almost 40 percent of the country controlling largely this area in red. But up in the north, the Tajiks, largely Northern Alliance forces together with the Uzbeks, only about eight percent, another 19 percent or so, the Hazaras.

Haron Amin, you are a representative of the Northern Alliance. The "L.A. Times" in an editorial today wrote this. Let me read it to you: The Northern Alliance has steadily defeated the Taliban on the ground. But it does not have the trust of enough Afghans to rule on its own. The quickest way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory would be for it to even try.

Why won't you, Northern Alliance, allow international peacekeepers outside peacekeepers to come in and try to deal with the security situation in Afghanistan?

AMIN: Well, that has got to be -- that's got to be part of an international mandate, under the United Nations. There are four security council resolutions on Afghanistan 1270 --

BLITZER: Before we go through all of those, today your representative in Bonn, at the talks, said no outside peace keepers.

AMIN: Yes, I'm getting to that. None of these security council resolutions 1267, 1333, 1363 and 1378 have called for the international deployment of forces. We have not ruled it out. The fact of the matter is --

BLITZER: It sounds different from what he said today, he basically seemed to rule it out today.

AMIN: Well, basically, when Brahimi had the first meeting at the security council open debate, he specifically said that in order of preference that he would want to go along with these options; number 1 an all Afghan security force, number 2 would be an international deployment, number 3 would be U.N. troops. The first one has not been fully looked at, scrutinized and worked with completely.

BLITZER: Let me ask General Clark, can there be a security -- a secure environment without outside peace keepers coming in?

CLARK: Well, it's a question of urgency here, if you had long enough and you could coordinate everything and deliver all the radios and all that equipment, eventually yes you could get an all Afghan force. The question is how long can we wait, how long before the situation on the ground deteriorates. And so I think there's a real urgency to this situation. If you can't get the agreement and you don't have the support right now, let's get some international troops in there to help sort this situation out while we are building an all Afghan...

(CROSSTALK)

AMIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CLARK: ... security force.

BLITZER: I want to ask Kelly, though --

AMIN: There have been deployments in Mazar-e Sharif and in other parts of Afghanistan. Kabul is secure. And what we are saying is if the international community completely unites on this very issue, rather than just getting feedback from us. If they truly discuss and the say this is the only way out, I think that Afghans will comply with this solution.

BLITZER: Kelly, you have trained peace keepers going into an environment like this. Should U.S. peace keepers be part of a post- Taliban regime over there?

MCCANN: I don't think anybody's a fan of that, and I think that everybody's for quick resolve and then move on. The only issue I'd say about Kabul is of course it's peaceful, because it is all Northern Alliance. Where is the other representation of the many people that are over there, so sure, where there's superior numbers, there'll be peace, because it's all of us. But the minute that there's other cultural things, like the general dealt with in the Balkans, the equation gets a little bit dicey.

BLITZER: Should Americans -- the American public expect a long- term U.S. military peacekeeping commitment in Afghanistan along the lines as in the Balkans?

CLARK: I'm not sure it's very much going to depend on how the campaign against al Qaeda and the terrorist network, and what happens to the remainder of the Taliban. If you can put an international force together and if there is no security threat there -- and you can take that word completely apart -- and the American military interest is out of it, then, yes, we'll have a diplomatic interest but maybe not a requirement for U.S. troops on the ground. But as long as there's an al Qaeda network and a threat from resurgent Taliban support there's going to be a U.S. presence there.

BLITZER: All right, we're going to have to leave it right there. And there's many other question, but we'll have to answer them on another day, maybe we will tomorrow. Thanks gentlemen for joining me.

And the U.S. prepares for yet another possible threat. Coming up, find out what's now be done to counter terror here on the home front. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Welcome back. Here are the latest developments: The Bush administration is launching a preemptive strike against a potential terrorist threat. It has signed a $428 million contract to buy 155 million doses of Smallpox vaccine, that will boost the nation's stockpile to cover the entire U.S. population. President Bush hosted the prime minister of Spain, today, both tried to downplay their potential conflict over the extradition of suspected al Qaeda members arrested in Spain. Spain objects to extraditing anyone who may face the death penalty. Jose Marie Aznar says Spain will study the issue, if and when the United States requests extradition.

President Bush is worried the conflict in Afghanistan is hurting efforts to feed starving Afghan refugees. He shared that concern with the U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan today during a White House meeting, both pledged to keep a steady supply of relief aid flowing despite hardships brought on by the U.S.-led war.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow, twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

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