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American Morning

American Man Found Fighting on Taliban Side in Afghanistan; FBI May be Easing Restrictions About Spying on Domestic Organizations

Aired December 03, 2001 - 09:05   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We begin this hour's live reports with the incredible story of what our sources say is an American man found fighting on the Taliban side in Afghanistan. He is now in the custody of the U.S. military. We get the latest on his story from CNN's Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon.

Good morning, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

This has got to be one of the most bizarre stories to emerge from the U.S. campaign, anti-terrorism campaign in Afghanistan, and it is as yet uncorroborated. What happened is a U.S. author, Robert Young Pelton, who was working with CNN, on Saturday spotted this young man in a hospital with prisoners who had emerged from the basement of that fortress in Mazar-e Sharif.

Twenty-year-old John Walker, who was calling himself "Abdul Hami," had suffered gunshot and shrapnel wounds in that uprising that began there about a week ago. While being treated by U.S. special forces medics, Walker told journalist he was born in Washington D.C. and lived in the Maryland suburbs before moving to Northern California at the age of 10.

Raised a Catholic, he converted to Islam at age 16, and later went to Pakistan to study the Koran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN WALKER: I was a student in Pakistan studying Islam, and I came into contact with many people who were connected with the Taliban. I lived in the region, and the people there in general have a great love for the Taliban. So I started to read some of the literature of the scholars and the history of the movement, and my heart become attached to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: So Walker says that he went to train in camps run by Osama bin Laden. He saw him several times there. Walker later fought in the disputed area of Kashmir with Pakistan, and then he eventually joined the Taliban in Konduz, where he then later surrendered. Now Walker's mother, Marylin, said she hadn't heard from her son in about seven months. She describes him as a good, sweet, shy boy, and she told "Newsweek" magazine -- quote -- "If he got involved with the Taliban, he must have been brainwashed. He was isolated. He didn't know a soul in Pakistan. When you're young and impressionable, it's easy to be led by charismatic people."

Walker is now in the custody of U.S. special forces, being held at an undisclosed location in Afghanistan. The U.S. military is questioning him, but they won't give further information on how long they will hold him or what they plan to do with him.

Now, apparently, there is no indication that Walker was a figure of any importance in either Al Qaeda or in the Taliban. So it's unclear right now whether or not he could face any future prosecution -- Paula.

ZAHN: Kathleen, it's clear to everyone, there has got to some sort of explanation as to why he hated America so much. We'll have to wait for the answer to that question, right?

KOCH: We will. And apparently, though, his parents very supportive of his conversion, of his studying in Pakistan. His father, very proud of him, an attorney. His parents are divorced. But we as yet have no explanation as to why he actually turned against America, because Walker in the "Newsweek" article is quoted as saying that he did support the strikes on the World Trade Center.

Back to you.

ZAHN: All right, Kathleen Koch, thanks so much.

There have been reports in recent days the FBI may be easing the restrictions about spying on domestic organizations, including religious groups. Attorney General John Ashcroft defended such an approach over the weekend.

We get the very latest on this controversy from CNN's Major Garrett, who is standing by at the White House.

Good morning, again, Major.

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Paula.

You know, after this attack on September 11th, many critics of the Justice Department said there was a failure, a massive failure of U.S. counterterrorism methods. And under President Bush's order, the Justice Department and Attorney General John Ashcroft have undertaken a massive review of all previous policies dealing with investigations and counterterrorism.

Toward that end, the attorney general is now considering lifting a decades old ban on spying, surveilling actively churches and religious organization throughout the country. Now that ban was imposed after J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI director, died in the early '70s. Why? Because there had been great concern that the surveillance he had ordered of thee Ku Klux Klan, of Reverend Martin Luther King Jr., of the Black Panthers and other domestic, political and religious organizations were, a, ineffective, and, b, trampled on civil liberties.

Well, now all of that is being reviewed because there is a certain sense at the Justice Department and here at the White House that some mosques and some Islamic clerics, very radical ones, may be using the cloak of their religion to protect their activities, knowing that the FBI is very unlikely to conduct surveillance operations inside a mosque. It is that the attorney general defended this potential shift in Department of Justice strategy over the weekend on an ABC program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We will respect the rights of political freedom and religious freedom, and we are deeply committed to that. But for so-called terrorists to gather over themselves some rope of claricism -- if that's word, let me just say that -- and claim immunity from being observed. People who hijack a religion and make out of it an implement of war will not be free from our interest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GARRETT: And, Paula, there are some FBI investigators and Justice Department officials who believe this reluctance, the stated policy not to conduct surveillance at religious organizations, may have prevented the FBI and other counter-intelligence organizations from obtaining clues to the 1993 World Trade Center itself. That investigation may in fact have been inhibited by this reluctance to surveil religious organizations. That, and for so many other reasons is why this policy is under active review -- Paula.

ZAHN: Thanks so much, Major.

GARRETT: And it may come as surprise to some of you that among the Justice Department's critics, there are actually a few local chiefs of police. Instead of working hand in hand with the federal government, some in local law enforcement are Reluctant to participate in efforts to interview thousands of mostly Middle Eastern men. The broadening investigation has some concern that innocent people are going to get caught in the net.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BOB BARR (R), GEORGIA: You're walking a very, very slippery slope to just bring people into question them based on nothing more than some vague assertion that they might be connected with some group that might have had something to do with the attacks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Portland, Oregon's police chief Mark Kroeker refuses to interview people on the Justice Department's list, saying state law prohibits it. Also joining us this morning, from Philadelphia, police commissioner John Timoney. He's going to tell us how he's reacting to this request by the Justice Department.

Good to have you with us. Welcome chiefs.

JOHN TIMONEY, PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: Good morning, Paula.

MARK KROEKER, PORTLAND POLICE COMMISSIONER: Good morning.

ZAHN: Chief, I'll like to start with you this morning. And replay a small part of what you had to say on ABC News yesterday, when you said you will not question the 23 men on the list that the Justice Department gave you. And you said -- quote -- "to collect information on people on the basis of their associations and so forth on a criminal investigation, this is proper. There has to be a criminal nexus between the crime and the person that is being interviewed." So you're basically saying no criminal connection, no interview.

KROEKER: Yes. And we are of course, participating 100 percent, Paula, with every criminal probe and every effort of the federal government in Portland. I really want to make it clear, there's been an unfortunate mischaracterization of my organization as being uncooperative, unparticipative, and that we are not. We are on the join terrorism task force. Our officers are working around-the-clock, sometimes smoking out leads and doing everything we can, and we are responding to all the threats. We are doing everything that we can to work shoulder to shoulder with the federal government.

In this particular area, the questioning of people that are not themselves suspects, we have a concern that has to do with a law of Oregon, binding Oregon police officers in what they can ask of a person who is not him or herself a suspect, and so the result of that, these interviews are actually being done. It's not that are we obstructing in any way. There is an apportionment of the work that is being done; it is being done. We don't have any argument with the process itself. We think it's a legitimate one. With 5,000 interviews, you are bound to get some shred of information that could be of some benefit to this investigation, and we are onboard with it.

It's just being very, very careful position of respect for the law, and that position we took when we went to the city council and assured the city council of Portland that we would be meticulous in this particular law and the one having to do with immigration also, when we signed on to the joint terrorism task force, and we put quite a few people working in offices with the FBI.

ZAHN: Chief Kroeker, one last question about that, I know you said your city attorney gave you the advice not go forward with the questioning of these individual men, and yet according to "The Washington Post," your attorney general said -- actually found nothing in the Oregon law that would suggest that there was anything wrong in questioning these young Arab men.

KROEKER: Right. And... ZAHN: Can you explain the contradiction there?

KROEKER: Yes I can. There is a contribution of opinion on this. The legislative counsel to the -- the legislature of Oregon has given us the same instruction. That's the council that advises on what the law really intended. Our own city attorney is the one who is actually litigating this particular section on lawsuits, as we have moved out in eco-terrorist and animal right terrorist, and all the things that we have here in the Northwest, and is advising us to be very careful in this one regard, so that we can move ahead legally and properly, and make sure that we're respecting the laws as we do everything that we can to work shoulder to shoulder with the federal government.

ZAHN: Chief Timoney, you have 18 men on your list that the Department of Justice handed to you. Does your department plan to question those men?

TIMONEY: Yes, we received the full package Friday evening. We are going over it over the weekend. We will run them by the lawyers today. I looked at the questions myself. I find no problems with them right now. I don't think you need a criminal nexus. These interviews are voluntary. They are noncustodial. And so the person you're about to interview, if he or she decides not to cooperate or walk away, they are free to do so. But some of the questions are pretty basic. It's similar to canvassing at a crime scene of a homicide, where you'd question people in the area regarding their knowledge. What do you see? What do you know? Who did you suspect committed the homicide or shooting? So right now, I've got no problems with it?

ZAHN: So you don't really see any potential problems, any conflicts with your laws there in Pennsylvania?

TIMONEY: No, and we'll give a run-through with the lawyers today. But I've gone over quickly the whole package and the questions, and they seem to be of a generic nature, kind of expected questions. Do you know anybody financing? Have you yourself ever threatened or recruited? Questions like that are pretty general, generic in nature, but that you know that may be very helpful. The other thing, part of the process is to see if the person in fact resides at the location -- some are on students, some are on work visa -- to see if they are in fact on that location. If not, that would may generate host of another questions.

ZAHN: Commissioner Timoney, if you have a upon with the position that chief Kroeker has taken here this morning?

TIMONEY: No. We often find ourselves in law enforcement get caught in the middle. Almost every big city police department works under some kind of federal consent decrees coming out of police activities on political groups in the '70s and '80s, coming out of Vietnam or Watergate, and so I am well aware and sympathetic to the chief's concerns. I have concerns myself. Because as I say, I've looked over the package that were given to us on Friday. I've looked at the questions, and I will make sure that I personally speak to the investigators before we send them out to do these voluntarily, noncustodial interviews.

ZAHN: You get the final word, Chief Kroeker. Anything that will change your mind or any of the advice that the city attorney's office is giving you.

KROEKER: Well, I totally agree with my colleague there, John Timoney, who is doing a fine job there in Philadelphia, and that there is really no need for a criminal nexus on this. But the law in Oregon that he referred to in that generation, post-Watergate and so forth that generated a restriction on law enforcement. That law restricts Oregon police officers, and so that's the problem with this as we move forward here.

And I just I want to make it very, very clear to your viewers and anyone -- and my colleagues and police chiefs across the country. We are in the league with them. We are not standing alone, and we are joining up with everyone. No one, including all 1,000 of my police officers here in Portland, wants to have these terrorist put in jail more than we do. We are onboard, and we're with this effort 100 percent. But we're with a meticulous adherence to our local law. That's what we are going to do. And thank you for the opportunity to be heard on this, Paula.

ZAHN: I hope you think you had the opportunity to set the record straight this morning. We appreciate your time, and know you had to get up very early to join us this morning.

KROEKER: On the west coast.

ZAHN: Commissioner Timoney had it easy this morning. He probably had a long breakfast a bunch of doughnuts. He had the late shift.

KROEKER: It's time for a good workout there this morning.

TIMONEY: I was out there rowing this morning, Paula.

ZAHN: Good for you. I figured you had done something to burn a lot of calories. He's probably one of the most fit commissioners in the country.

Mark Kroeker, John Timoney, good to have both of you with us. Good luck to both of you.

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