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CNN Talkback Live

Violence Intensifies in the Middle East; What Should the U.S. Do With the American Taliban Fighter?

Aired December 03, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, HOST: You've just heard the latest. Now it's your chance to talk about the intensified violence in the Middle East, as well as, what to do with John Walker, the Taliban fighter who says he's American.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN WALKER, AMERICAN TALIBAN FIGHTER: I started to read some of the literature of their scholars and their history of the movement, and my heart became attached to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: And, climb aboard the Segway human transporter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've combined computers, sensors and gyro technology to create a device that behaves like an extension of yourself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Could this machine "Jetsonize" your world?

(APPLAUSE)

KAGAN: Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out". I'm Daryn Kagan. I'm going to be hanging out with the TALKBACK crew here all week. I hope you tune in at 3:00 p.m. Eastern and join me.

In a few minutes we're going to find out more about John Walker. Who is he? He's the American who is apparently fighting with al Qaeda and the Taliban. And also in a few minutes, you're going to get a very good look at an invention that is supposed to rocket the world.

First, before we get to the fun and the future, we have to talk about something very serious, and something that's happening right now: suicide bombers and retaliatory missiles. Israel has declared war on terror and the waning support in Washington for Yasser Arafat's leadership of the Palestinian. There is a lot to talk about as hostilities heat up in the Mideast. Joining us for our first segment here is Abdel Bari Atwan. He is London editor in chief of the Palestinian newspaper "Al-Quds." And Janine Zacharia, she is Washington correspondent for the "Jerusalem Post".

Welcome to both of you. Thank you for joining us on this Monday afternoon. Question right off the top: is Israel justified in these bombings, given what has taken place with the suicide bombings over the weekend? Mr. Atwan, I'll start with you.

ABDEL BARI ATWAN, "AL-QUDS": Well, I believe it's not justified. Israel is a Democratic state. It is a civilized country representing those in civilization. They should be, you know, self-restrained and they should give Arafat a chance.

KAGAN: OK, so not to bomb, Mr. Atwan, what are they supposed to do? They are clearly frustrated. They had a number of deaths over the weekend and they feel they must do something to make their point.

ATWAN: You know, OK, to do something, they should look at the peaceful side. For example, here in London when the IRA strikes on the city, the British government did not send its cruise missiles to bomb Belfast, for example. The British people felt that the government should do something, but the government actually did open negotiation with the IRA.

So I believe government should not behave the way like these kind of terrorist organization, or these extremists in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, or anywhere in the world. So personally, I was really surprised by the Israel action.

KAGAN: You were surprised? You weren't expecting it to happen? Don't you think it just was a matter of time before the Israelis were going to retaliate?

ATWAN: Well, I think they shouldn't retaliate in such a way. They should actually, you know, look at the root of the problem. Why are those people, frustrated people, committing such atrocities against the Israelis? It is their occupation, where those people under occupation, there is no hope for the future. The Israelis are uprooting their trees, demolishing their housings, building settlements in their territories. So what do you expect them to do?

KAGAN: So are you justifying the suicide bombings? Are those justified?

ATWAN: No, no.

KAGAN: No? OK.

ATWAN: No, please, don't misunderstand me. I'm a peaceful man. I'm looking for -- I'm a passive man.

KAGAN: Looking for a peaceful way. Janine, we mentioned that you write for "The Jerusalem Post." Jerusalem, one of the sites of the suicide bombings. Talk about the frustration felt in that part of the world.

JANINE ZACHARIA, "JERUSALEM POST": Well, of course, Israelis are very deeply frustrated. This is not the first time they've been through suicide bombings like this. And unlike the last major spurt of bombings, when they had a few consecutive ones in 1996, when there was a peace process when Yasser Arafat cracked down on terrorists, I think there's now really a sense of helplessness, of "what can we do?"

And there's also a real shift to the right in Israel. People really want to see a tough reaction here. And there are calls from within Prime Minister Sharon's cabinet, to even get rid of Yasser Arafat this time.

KAGAN: And speaking of Yasser Arafat, Abdel, the spotlight is clearly on him. How strong is he, politically, at this point? Can he have control over the Palestinian people and over these suicide bombers? Is he in control of the people and is he the true leader right now?

ATWAN: Yes, he can control his own people, but you know, we have to help him. When the Israelis are bombing his...

KAGAN: If he's in control, then do you think he's condoning what took place this weekend with the suicide bombings?

ATWAN: No, he condemned these attacks, clearly. And he's against it. And he -- today and yesterday, he actually arrested about 200 of those extremists from Hamas and Al-Jihad groups. But you know, we need to help him. When the Israelis bombed his police headquarters, when they humiliated him, when they demolished houses, when they had the incursion inside his city, how can he actually perform, according to the demands of the Israelis and the Americans?

You know, the man actually is really under the pressure from the Israelis and from his own people. And now these attacks against the Palestinian cities, this definitely will put him under tremendous pressure. And it will embarrass him. How can he deliver in this case?

So if he wants to arrest people, we should give him the chance to arrest those extremists. and we should treat him as a peace partner. But we can't treat him yesterday as a peace partner, and today we say he's not fit to do the job and he should be removed from his power. This is really...

KAGAN: Now, one way that the Palestinian say that they can help Yasser Arafat and help the Palestinians, calling on the United States to force the Israelis to stop this bombing. Do you think that that would be a good idea? And in fact, it doesn't sound like anything like that is taking place.

ATWAN: You know, honestly, I was shocked when the American administration gave the green light for Sharon to continue this bombing. Previously, the American administration used to ask Sharon to restrain and to self control, and to refrain from any attacks against the Palestinians. But this time it seems they are supportive. And this actually will undermine the American image, the American standard in the Middle East, and maybe the Muslim world, which is in such a critical time, is a devastating blow to the United States and its foreign policy and its the administration, and the values which they are fighting a war in Afghanistan.

KAGAN: Janine, Abdel makes a good point, in that the United States has other deals going on here in its fight against terrorism. It has made -- it's put together its coalition, a coalition of Muslim partners. How far can it go in criticizing the Palestinians, without watching that coalition fall apart?

ZACHARIA: Before I talk about that, I'd just like to say that I think one of the ways to understand the American reaction yesterday is that they're very frustrated. They're very disappointed, and they're very angry with Yasser Arafat. They basically, over the past two weeks, have launched a new American initiative, with lots of gifts for him.

If we remember, President Bush at the U.N. talking about a future state of Palestinian. Secretary of State Colin Powell, talking about the need to end occupation. These are rhetorical gifts designed to help Yasser Arafat crack down on terror, make the break with Hamas and start negotiating a peace deal.

Now they are very embarrassed right now. They have their envoy, retired Marine General Anthony Zinni, in the region, sitting there while Hamas unleashes all this terror. Now, of course the United States, their top priority has been to keep this quiet. They have called on Israel in the past to exercise restraint.

But they know that they can't tell Israel to exercise restraint, after 25 people are blown up in 12 hours. They would look completely hypocritical, in light of what they are doing in Afghanistan.

KAGAN: And in fact, Abel, you heard the administration come out and say not today, only is Israel frustrated with the Palestinian and Yasser Arafat, the U.S. is frustrated, as well. That's pretty strong language.

ATWAN: Well, I believe United States also should shift the blame to the Israelis. Before the arrival of the two American envoys in their peace mission to the Middle East, to Jerusalem, actually, the Israelis killed five Palestinian children. And they assassinated one of those Hamas leaders. So actually, they embarrassed the American, not the Palestinian, not Arafat.

So we shouldn't always put the blame on Arafat. We have to be equal in blaming both sides of this violence. But it seems it's a habit now to find a scapegoat+ for the Israeli failure to maintain law and order for their own people. And it's also easy for the American administration to put the blame or the pressure on Yasser Arafat, not only the Israeli government.

You know, Arafat and the Palestinians, they are under Israeli occupation. Israel occupies the Palestinian land. It is not Arafat who is sending his tanks to shoot the Israelis. It is not Arafat who is occupying the Israelis territories and building settlements in it. It's completely the opposite.

So we have to be fair when we talk about this conflict. We have to exert the pressure on the side who is occupying the territories, who are shooting the Palestinians, sending his Apache helicopter to assassinate their political activists, and adopt assassination as official policies.

We have to be fair, here. And if we do so, I think this will make the settlement easier for the Americans, for the Israelis, and for the Palestinians.

KAGAN: We're going to continue our conversation. The opinions are heated. Stay with us. We're going to go to our audience, the phone calls and also, your e-mail right after this.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back. We're continuing our discussion today of what is taking place in Israeli and in Gaza. Of course, not too much of a surprise. We have a lot of opinions in our office -- in our office. This is our audience today.

Our office happens to be our audience, here. Excuse me. We want to get over here. We have two Naval reservists with us in the audience with us, and they have an opinion about the action that Israel has taken. John, you go first. And I'm sorry, I just stepped on your toe.

JOHN: Well, my opinion is that we have given them plenty of time to respond and do what they're doing right now, about gathering up their terrorists. Arafat just made a response a little too late. And, you know, I think Israel is reacting the same way we did when we got hit on September 11th.

KAGAN: And here's Jonathan from Virginia.

JONATHAN: How do you react to a suicide bombing? I mean, we saw what happened in September. I mean, fight fire with fire.

KAGAN: Strong statement. You have to come up with a strong statement. But not everyone in our audience agrees, and Brian has a different opinion.

BRIAN: Well, I don't know that we can justify the action that Israel took in these airstrikes. I mean, sure, if you find out that someone has done something against your country or against your people, you need to retaliate. But is it necessarily the target that they are attacking? I really don't know. I can't say.

I don't think we can justify. I think in September -- you know, we took time. We found out who was responsible then we took action against those. I don't know that we have done that in this case. KAGAN: Abdel, I want to you comment on John's words that he had to say first, in talking about -- you know, the Israelis have given Yasser Arafat a chance. They've given the Palestinians chances, and what you get? You get more suicide bombings. How do you respond to that?

ATWAN: I don't know what he means by a chance. As I said, the Palestinians are fighting an occupation, Israeli occupying the Palestinian territories, occupying the Palestinian cities, committing atrocities against the Palestinians. And they killed 815 Palestinians for the last eight months or so. So we can't compare what's happening in Palestine, for example, with what's happening in Afghanistan.

KAGAN: Abdel, I just want to jump in for a second. Tell me this, though, is it one opinion within the Palestinian community, or are there people who are in fact frustrated by these suicide bombers -- that think they are getting closer to peace, that every time something like this happens, where they are a frustrated people, they say this is just farther away from what we're trying to achieve? And clearly, that is, their own Palestinian state. It's not helping. It's making things worse.

ATWAN: Yeah, it's not helping. I agree with you. Most of the Palestinians actually don't agree with these attacks and they condemn it, because it came at the wrong time, and innocent people are killed. But when the Israeli extremists committed atrocities in the tomb of the patriarch, and they killed 25 Palestinians and injured more than 50.

Yasser Arafat did not have Apache helicopters or the cruise missiles to hit Haifa or Tel Aviv or West Jerusalem. So you know, and nobody came and sent aircraft carriers in order to force the Israelis to stop these atrocities against the Palestinians. So, please, we are human beings. We have flesh and blood like you. So why is nobody sympathetic when we are under Israeli attack, and when we are massacred by the Israelis.

Ariel Sharon is responsible for killing 2,000 Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila when he invaded Lebanon in 1982. We haven't seen this kind of sympathy or this kind of comparison, when we are the victims of the Israeli state-sponsored terrorism. So please, we are human beings. Please feel for us.

We are under occupation. We need a state. We need self determination like you. So why always we are the side to be blamed by this, and we are facing a hate campaign? So we need, we need U.N. Security Council resolutions to...

KAGAN: You don't exactly, though, expect...

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: Abdel, you do not expect to get sympathy when news travels across the world of people going inside buses of civilians and blowing themselves up, and blowing people to bits. I mean, you don't get expect to get sympathy then, do you? ATWAN: No, I'm not talking -- this is a remote incident. This is not the normal. They don't represent the majority of the Palestinians. The majority of the Palestinians, or the greater majority of the Palestinians supported Oslo agreement, support talk to the Israelis. Support, even conceding 78 percent of historic Palestinian for the Israelis to establish their own state, and to have a state. And we accepted only 22 percent of our Palestine.

But in spite of that, the occupation continue. They are taking our land. They are taking our waters. They are building settlement in our territories, and they are asking us to concede half of this 22 percent or more. So what kind of deal is this? What kind of situation is this? We are under besiege. We are really terrorized by these Israeli attacks and live ammunitions. Our children are killed by the Israeli live ammunition. Settlement is taking most of our land.

So, what do you expect the people -- definitely, this kind of treatment will create extremism, and extremism everywhere. Even in the United States, you said what happened in Oklahoma by those extremists. So why we cannot have extremists on our side? And why usually are those extremists used as if the all the Palestinians are like that, and all of them support terrorism against the Israelis? This is not true. Look at the occupation.

KAGAN: Abdel, I need to jump in here and get this e-mail in here. It's Rebecca in Clearwater, Florida. She writes in: "If we're expecting other countries to help us in our fight against terrorism and suicide murders, then we need to be willing to help Israel and any other country experiencing it in their country."

Janine, is it the same thing, what the U.S. faces, as what Israel faces? If you look at the United States, the United States is not looking to be an occupying force in Afghanistan. And yet, as Abdel points out, Israel's an occupying force in the Palestinian territories. Is it the same thing, or is it clearly different?

ZACHARIA: Well, I think it's important to point out that Israel, too, does not want to be an occupying force in the Palestinian areas. That's why they went into Oslo. That's why they've given up nearly half of the West Bank and Gaza total to the Palestinian control. And 80 percent of Palestinians, is what Israelis will tell you, live under Palestinian control.

So it's not that they are a wannabe occupying. That's why they went to Camp David last year. That's why they negotiated. And if you remember what happened, after Camp David a few weeks later, the intifada was launched. And that is what led to the violence we see today.

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: I'm sorry, we're so busy today, we're full-packed. I'm going to let you have the last word, there, and say thank you to you. Janine Zacharia with "The Jerusalem Post," also Abdel Bari Atwan, thank you very much for joining us. It is a difficult conversation, I know, and I realized at the beginning we weren't going to solve it. But hopefully the discussion does help in some way.

As we said, it's a busy day. Another big topic, just ahead.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out," as we move on to our next topic, and that is John Walker, a young man who before today you probably never heard of. His mother says she believes her son must have been brainwashed.

He is the American who was found fighting on the side of the al Qaeda in Afghanistan. And Walker is the custody of the U.S. special forces there. The 20-year-old told CNN that he volunteered with Osama bin Laden after studying the Taliban movement.

Joining us right now is Mark Miller. He is chief of correspondence for "Newsweek" magazine. Mark coordinated "Newsweek's" interview with John Walker at his parents. Mark, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

MARK MILLER, "NEWSWEEK": Thank you.

KAGAN: Who is this guy? Who is Mark Miller (sic), or I guess his Islam name is Abdul Hamid, he goes by.

MILLER: That was one of the names he gave us, yes. Well, John Walker is a young American man who is in a world of trouble at this point. He's someone who -- he's 20 years old. And made quite a journey, from the age of 16 when he first converted to Islam, after reading the autobiography of Malcolm X, to ending up fighting with Taliban soldiers.

KAGAN: It seems kind of hard to connect the dots here. I mean, he's living in the Bay area, 16 years old.

MILLER: Right.

KAGAN: It's one thing to have interest in other religions. A lot of teenagers might do that. But how do you end up going from there to Pakistan to Afghanistan?

MILLER: Well, I think his parents are still asking that question. They described him as the family friend did, as a very serious student, someone who was very spiritual. Someone who they thought in some ways would lead a monastic kind of life. And he decided to go for training in Arabic in Yemen a couple of years ago.

KAGAN: I mean, right there, Mark. It's one thing to study Arabic, but who goes to Yemen to do that?

MILLER: Well, he felt that was the best place to learn Arabic in a pure form, that would be most applicable to his studies of Islam. His father began to -- I understand that some change, some serious change in his view had begun to take place when the USS Cole was bombed in Yemen in 2000.

They exchanged e-mails, which the father describes as fairly uncomfortable now, in which the father said you know, "these were young people who died, not too much older, if at all, than you." And John expressed concerns that an American warship calling on a Muslim port was basically an act of war, as he called it. So he implied that the attack was just retribution.

KAGAN: And so it seems that the family and the family's friends are saying, basically, that he fell in kind of with the wrong group of people. It was one thing to go study language, but that -- I guess, like when in Yemen, do as Yemenis do.

Let's listen to another sound bite that his family friend said, in explaining how they think that this young man took a turn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where a young person is absolutely isolated. You know, we have to remember this. There were no phones where he was. He couldn't -- no computers. He couldn't talk to his parents. He couldn't communicate with them. The only news that he was getting was from the Taliban newspapers. He didn't know what was going on in the Western world.

All he knew was that he wanted to help Afghanistan come to a peaceful, solid place. And so he felt like the Islam rulers would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: So how does he end in Mazar-e Sharif in this prison uprising? That's another part I don't understand.

MILLER: Right. Well, seven months ago his parents lost contact with him. He had been studying at a religious academy, an Islamic academy in Pakistan, and he had e-mailed them and said he was headed for cooler climes. You know, he didn't -- in a very hot part of Pakistan. And then they lost touch with him.

And it turns out that what he seems to have done at that point, after having met some of the teachers of the Taliban leadership, and some Taliban members themselves, is head to Kabul, where he volunteered to help the Taliban. He didn't really speak the local languages at that point. So they actually referred him, incredibly enough, to some of bin Laden's supporters at a camp, where he received combat training, and where he says he saw bin Laden several times.

From there he went to the disputed region of Kashmir, and he fought alongside Pakistanis who were fighting the Indians over that territory. Then returned to Afghanistan, he says, and he went back to one of the military training camps there. Then ends up in Kunduz, fighting alongside Taliban. And eventually it falls to the Northern Alliance.

And as prisoners, they were taken to this 19th century fort near Mazar-e Sharif. And it was there that we saw that brutal uprising staged by Taliban members, which was then, in an equally brutal fashion, put down by the U.S. and the Northern Alliance.

KAGAN: OK, Mark, the question becomes right now, what should happen to this young man? And I have to tell you that our viewers have some very strong opinions. Here's one from Aaron in Ames, Iowa. He says: "If the Taliban fighter is truly an American, he should be tried according to our judicial system. He rights should be protected, just like any other American, especially his right to a fair trial."

But we have Michael in Napa, in northern California, not too far from where this young man is from. "America will be watched as it deals with John Walker. He should be treated and prosecuted as any other foreign national fighting for the Taliban, even if it means a tribunal and death."

Two very different opinions. The basic question is, what is going to happen to him? Right now he's...

MILLER: Well, I actually just wanted to say one thing. I'm not suer that the neighbor is entirely correct, when he says that he didn't know what was happening in the western world. We asked John Walker what he thought of the events of September 11th, the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. And he said, "well, that's a very complicated subject. I can't really give you an answer."

But when we pressed he said, "you know, the short answer is I supported what happened." So he was clearly aware of what was happening on September 11.

Now, the U.S. has not said what it will do with him. They do have him in custody. They have to make some decisions about what -- if any -- crimes to charge him with.

He was present -- even though he says he was not involved -- he was nonetheless present in this uprising in which an American CIA agent was murdered, and that obviously is very serious thing. And he is at this point being treated as a prisoner of war.

KAGAN: Just real quickly, I have to ask you.

MILLER: Yeah?

KAGAN: Are -- are his parents or his family beside themselves? I mean, do their jaws drop just like ours -- many of ours do here in the U.S.?

MILLER: I -- they seem to be struggling with this -- this transformation. I mean, they knew that he obviously had become a Muslim. He dropped out of high school at age 16 after converting and decided to begin this quest for, you know, knowledge of Islam. So they understood that.

But they can't quite, I think, believe this is the person that he's become. They were stunned by the statements of support for Bin Laden and for the September 11 attacks. But at this point, you know, they want to know where he is. They love him and they say, you know, he remains their son and they are proud of him even if they don't understand how he got to the place where he is today.

KAGAN: All right. Jim in our audience from West Virginia has an opinion about what should happen to this man.

JIM: I think to cut through the chase that if the man is a U.S. citizen and he's fighting with our enemy, that's called treason. And he should be charged with treason and he should have the same rights as anyone else charged with treason.

KAGAN: And Mark as you were saying -- our audience seems to agree with that. Charge him with treason. As you were saying, we have yet to see exactly what will happen to him.

MILLER: Right.

KAGAN: I want to thank you for coming on. It's in -- is the interview in this week's issue or next week's?

MILLER: Well, actually it's on our web site. newsweek.msnbc.com. And it's there is a version of the story in the magazine this week, but a more complete version is on our web site.

KAGAN: Very good. We will look for it online. As we go to break I want to go to the phone. Dana has been very patient. Dana, you get the last comment and then we're going to go to commercial break.

DANA: Well, I think since he joined the Taliban and al Qaeda, he gave up his right to be an American. And given up his right he should be turned over to the -- like the rest of the Talibans are being done -- turn him over to the Northern Alliance and let them take care of him. He shouldn't have American citizenship if this is what he is going to do in his life.

KAGAN: Strong opinion from out there. Dana, thank you very much. We're going to take a break. Up next, we're going to get up close and personal with Ginger. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Still ahead, the next frontier or another rich kid toy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe the Segway will do for walking what the calculator did for pad and pencil.

KAGAN: It looks like fun, but is it a revolution? We'll tell you how the invention they call Ginger really works, and you can tell us whether you'll add it to your Christmas list.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back.

We have been dealing with pretty serious stuff. Now we have some stuff to smile about as we scoot into the future. All aboard the Segway human transporter. Don't call it a scooter, whatever you do.

It is formally known as Ginger, the brainchild of of the inventor Dean Kamen. It's kind of a battery-powered personal superscooter -- but we are not going to say a scooter -- that Kamen says does for the car what the car did for the horse and buggy.

We're going to find out what it is, how it works and do you want to get one. And should you want to get one? Our guests today: technology journalist John Heilemann from "Time" magazine. He has ridden one. He's an experienced Segway rider. Also John Quain, contributing editor at "Popular Science" magazine. And I believe we also have Bill Nye the Science Guy on the phone. Bill, are you there?

BILL NYE, THE SCIENCE GUY: Yes I am, Daryn. Good afternoon.

KAGAN: Good afternoon to you. You hang -- hang on a second. I want to go right to John Heilemann. You rode one. What is it?

JOHN HEILEMANN, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, you know, you gave a pretty good description of it a second ago.

KAGAN: But don't call it a scooter, right? Isn't Dean Kamen -- that's like nails on a chalkboard to him.

HEILEMANN: Yeah, that's right. And also, I mean, if you think about anything that's kind of what you normally think of as a scooter. and you think about kind of a thing that has an engine, that's two big wheels in the front and the back and it's unless it's going pretty fast it's impossible to balance.

I mean, this doesn't have any of those characteristics. It's got two little wheels and they are on each side of you, rather than in front and in back, and you stand on a platform between those wheels. This thing has no accelerator, no throttle, no gearshift and no brakes. And it's a major kind of magical thing about it is...

KAGAN: So what's -- is this thing from Harry Potter? Is it from Hogwarts?

HEILEMANN: Well, it's...

KAGAN: What is this thing?

HEILEMANN: It sometimes seems that way, you know, because it does have this element sort of that makes it sort of seem like it can read your mind. What's really going on is a lot of computer hardware and software on the inside and a bunch of gyroscopes that allow the thing to not only balance itself but to act in concert with the human body to -- to keep you upright pretty much at all times. If you lean a little bit forward, you go forward. If you lean a little bit back, you go back. And if you want to stop you sort of think about stopping and the thing comes to a halt under your feet. KAGAN: So the first time, John -- the first time you stepped on one of these things, how long did it take you to figure it out?

HEILEMANN: Well...

KAGAN: And what did it feel like? Did you think, "Oh, I'm going to fall over," like a weeble?

HEILEMANN: Well, you sort of look at the thing and you can't imagine how it would keep you up exactly. And as I say, when you get on the first thing that happens is it sort of feels like the machine is reading your mind.

Dean Kamen is fond of pointing out that the hardest thing we learn to do as human beings is to walk. It takes about a year. If you ask your mother she will remind you it took you about a year to learn to walk.

This thing is effectively internalizing through technology all of the same mechanisms that we use to learn how to balance and to walk. And it takes about five minutes to learn this thing.

KAGAN: John Quain, let's bring in you. J.Q., is this -- is this the next big thing?

JOHN "J.Q." QUAIN, "POPULAR SCIENCE" MAGAZINE: Well, maybe. I mean, we're certainly looking for the next big thing. I mean, that was -- that was all the hype the last year about what "it" was, what Ginger was.

KAGAN: Do you think it lives up to the hype, now that we know?

QUAIN: Well, one of the things a lot of people hoped it was because Dean Kamen has been working on it is a sterling engine involved. It's a very effective internal combustion engine that could have no pollution. And a lot of people hoped this scooter would involve that. Now, it doesn't. It doesn't mean that it won't have a sterling engine in the future. But I think people will be pretty enthusiastic about this nonetheless. It does meet that cool factor.

KAGAN: Well, speaking of enthusiasm, nobody's more enthusiastic about science matters than Bill Nye the Science Guy. And Bill, I happen to know that you are a big proponent of electric cars. So does this fit in -- into that category? Are you excited about this?

NYE: Well, I'm excited in a way, Daryn. Yes, I'm excited, of course. I have -- I have access to an electric car and they're great. They have a tremendous amount of torque at low speeds. I'm not saying this is an electric car, but it's an electric vehicle. It has a battery. I'm sure the battery is what contributes to it weighing 65 pounds, which is....

KAGAN: Is that heavy or light, Bill?

NYE: Well, to me it's -- it's heavy, compared with a bicycle.

KAGAN: OK.

NYE: A typical bicycle might weigh...

KAGAN: You're not going to carry it up the stairs, in other words.

NYE: No, it would be hard to carry up the stairs. On the other hand, perhaps, we would engineer our -- our world to allow ramps that this thing could go up.

And I'll say another thing about it. It's kind of wide. Now this may all work out. The pictures I have seen are -- depict people using it on just ideal conditions. Big, wide, sidewalk-style roadways and passing each other waving and stuff. And I'm sure that will work in some environments. But there's going to be a lot of places where it's going be cluttered. And I am not saying that this -- this is bad inherently, it's just -- this is the first one of these things. And right now it's big.

KAGAN: Well, Bill, you bring up a good point, you know. Maya here, she's from New York State and we were talking earlier. What were you pointing out about how the Ginger might not work in your world?

MAYA: Well, we have lot of snow in the winter, usually, and I can't see this creature going around in snow. And being from Ithaca, New York, it's also a very hilly town and it has sidewalk kind of things and bumps and pathways. So it's not exactly a smooth surface.

NYE: But this is the first cut.

KAGAN: But John, why don't you...

HEILEMANN: No, no, but -- none of that is true. The machine...

KAGAN: That is true about Ithaca, New York. There is a lot of snow.

HEILEMANN: No, I agree with that. I'm not commenting Ithaca. The thing is great on ice. It's great on snow. It goes through gravel. It goes through sand. It goes down stairs, although not up stairs. It goes up steep grades and down steep grades. There's -- there's not a terrain problem.

Bill's comment about whether or not it was too wide or not. It is probably -- I mean, the heaviness factor is -- is a significant problem. 65 pounds is lot. He is also right that the batteries are part of that problem.

In fact, there's not just one battery, Bill, there's two batteries. And that's because Dean Kamen engineered this things so that it would be -- there would be redundant systems so that if you are on it, if one battery fails, the other battery immediately kicks in so that you won't have any risk of falling over and you're hurting yourself. Well, the cost of that is that it weighs lot. It's not very wide, though. In fact, the width of thing is made specifically to be no wider than a human set of shoulders. So the footprint is in fact not any wider than you are.

KAGAN: Those are some nice shoulders. OK.

NYE: The thing is, when you pass people on the street you may not be aware -- I'm not saying that this -- I'm not saying that I don't love the thing. I'm just saying, when you pass people on the street or you get in a corridor, you'll find that you naturally turn your -- you rotate your shoulders. Or if, you know, if you penetrate the defensive line. You rotate your shoulders so that you can pass each other. But this thing -- I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's a little factor.

KAGAN: ...person. You know, but there's more to talk about like how much does it cost? Can each of us get one?

NYE: And security.

KAGAN: And security? Can you steal it?

NYE: Yeah, if you want to leave this $3000 thing that only weighs 65 pounds on the sidewalk.

KAGAN: Good question. Bill, hang with us. John and John are going to do that. And we're going to take a break and talk about more after this.

Also, we are going to go to the streets of New York City and ask a messenger would he use it. Is it the next best thing? There's our messenger standing by. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: You are looking at pictures there of Dean Kamen, the inventor of Ginger, of the Segway, the personal people mover there. Who needs one -- something like this -- and who deals with the streets more than a messenger that fights the streets of New York city?

We are going to go outside right now to talk with Lara Baltazar. He is a New York bike messenger with Bestway Corporate Services. Thank for stopping for a second on your route. I know you guys are busy.

LARA BALTAZAR, BIKE MESSENGER: How are you, Daryn?

KAGAN: I'm doing OK. Now, have you seen pictures? Have you seen this thing?

BALTAZAR: Yes, it's very interesting. Segway. I mean, I'd like to give it a shot.

KAGAN: You'd like it. Now, do you think it would fit in your job? BALTAZAR: Oh, easily, easily. Everything's a big timing basis. It's a good -- you know, it's all about hustling. The way I -- the little bit I've heard about it, it sounds like it's pretty innovative. I mean, you know, with the shoulder width and the -- and it's got a lot of good traction, and it's got some good speed.

And you know, some of it -- some of the -- I mean, from the looks of it, it looks like something out of the Jetsons or something. But it's pretty -- like I said, I'm dying to get a shot on it. I mean, if my boss bought me one.

KAGAN: Hint, hint. In case he's watching, right? I think they're going for about $8,000 so that's a lot of tip money there, Lara. Now, I know that kind of the messengers on the streets of New York City, you guys can be a little assertive or aggressive, shall we say.

BALTAZAR: Yeah.

KAGAN: Do you think you could do that enough on one of these machines like you could on your bike?

BALTAZAR: I think -- it may take -- make a little extra -- take a little extra measure for directioning. Maybe like a little -- maybe even, actually, it would be on a -- on a promotional thing for bikers. Because if they actually did start using those things and they set a little space because it's not everywhere in the city your get a little roadside, you know, manner.

I mean, for us sometimes you've just got to cut corners, you know, and make -- make way in zigzag traffic, you know? But I mean, as far as the -- as the thing as what I've heard is it's easy to manipulate. I mean, like I said, I'd like to give it a shot. And you know, it might -- it might -- I'd probably give some competition out there to the guys on the mopeds.

KAGAN: Did we -- did we happen to catch you in the middle of a delivery?

BALTAZAR: Yeah, as a matter of fact I'm holding on to something right now. The bosses are cutting me slack.

KAGAN: OK. Well, we're going to let you go because we don't want to cause problems with business.

BALTAZAR: Thanks, Daryn.

KAGAN: We do appreciate you stopping by.

BALTAZAR: Thank you.

KAGAN: Lara Baltzar, a messenger on the streets of New York City.

BALTAZAR: Thank you. KAGAN: And hope you get a good tip on this latest delivery. Now let's talk about the question of security and safety. And John Heilemann, you'd be a good one to bring in here. Let's say Lara was using one of these and doing a delivery on the streets of New York City. Would it be safe for him to leave at the bottom of an office building and the run to whatever floor he had to? He could come back down, the thing could be stolen.

HEILEMANN: Well, that's true. I mean, what there is on this thing is there is a -- a computer-coded digital key that only -- every key is individually coded to the particular machine, so when you shut it down no one else could use a key to start it. There's no way to hotwire it or anything.

But certainly, unless it was chained down to something, 65 pounds is on one hand kind of a heavy thing to carry away. But on the other hand it's not an impossible thing to carry away. So these things are valuable enough you'd certainly want to try to -- like with a bike, you know, you'd certainly want to try to chain it up, lock it down somehow to reduce the risk that someone would come along and cart if off.

KAGAN: In that case 65 pounds could be a good thing. A couple of quick questions, John. I know you need to go. But before you do, couple quick, specific questions about it. Kristin, what was your question about it?

KRISTIN: I was just asking how fast it goes.

KAGAN: How fast does it go?

HEILEMANN: Well, there are a couple of different performance settings. But the thing can go as fast as about 17 or 18 miles an hour.

And more importantly, it can go incredibly slow, which makes it kind of pedestrian friendly. You can -- unlike a bike, which has to go six or seven miles an hour to be able to stay upright, you can make this thing go just -- just about walking speed or a little bit faster.

On the other hand, you can also push it like I say up to about 17 miles an hour, which I can tell you is pretty fast when you're moving along at that rate with nothing else around you.

KAGAN: Sounds pretty fun. Ben had -- Ben had a question for you too.

BEN: So how long does the battery last, and what's the charge time on that?

HEILEMANN: You charge overnight. It's -- it's one hour of charge for every two hours of use. And you basically charge overnight and you can have it for all next day. And the batteries run for 15 miles, which is again pretty far. Most -- most postal carriers go only about five miles a day.

KAGAN: Bill, how does that compare to the electric car that you drive?

NYE: Well, the modern General Motors EB1, with nickel metal high drive (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the advance battery pack goes 120 miles under very good conditions. A New York messenger will go through 15 miles very quickly. Also there's a lot of acceleration and deceleration. But this is a first cut. I tell you, the person who's going to get rich, Daryn...

KAGAN: Who is that? Who do I need to meet, Bill?

NYE: Is the person that comes up, well, with a compact battery.

KAGAN: Ah, it's all about the battery.

NYE: A compact, lightweight battery. Well, it is right now. And also, can I ask you guys a couple questions who are familiar with it?

KAGAN: Well, John has got to go, so you'd better make it fast.

NYE: OK. But just -- does it have a -- does it have regenerative braking? When you go downhill does it charge the battery? And secondly, does it have a locking ring, a place where you'd run a chain through to secure it to a bike rack, for example? Go ahead.

HEILEMANN: Yes and yes.

KAGAN: Yes and yes, and he has to go. Otherwise, we're going to watch him take a phone call on the air.

John Heilemann, thanks for being with us. Once again, the article is in this week's "Time" magazine. You can read a lot more about it there. So John, we're going to let you go. But Bill and J.Q. are going to stay with us to answer a few more questions. I think we have a caller on the -- the phone right now. Alexander.

ALEXANDER: Hi, Daryn.

KAGAN: Hi. What's your question?

ALEXANDER: It's actually more of a comment. I think this Ginger device is a small look into the future. I mean, imagine the potential. If in some way we could depend more on electrical devices and not gas ones, it might just solve lot of problems with -- well, in both environmentally and economically.

NYE: Bear in mind everybody...

KAGAN: Go ahead, Bill.

NYE: ...that any vehicle, whether it is electric, gas, or coal powered, needs energy. You have to get a source of energy. Electricity isn't really free. It's very clean and it also is very what you would call high performance. You can use electricity to control this motor at very very slow speeds or relatively high speeds. And so that's a great use of electricity.

But still, we need to use our electricity efficiently. The big thing is nominally you are not putting pollution right out there on the street, which is what you do with cars and buses.

KAGAN: Well, and you know what else? Bob, he's with us here in our audience from Missouri, has a different energy issue. The energy that we as humans should be expending. What's your concern, Bob?

BOB: My concern is that we have been pegged sort of as lazy America. We have lack of exercise. And now here we are going to get a motorized vehicle that the person who -- maybe their only source of exercise is walking from the front door to the mailbox is now going to get on a little motorized scooter to run up to the mailbox. So what is going to happen? And we really promote exercise and now we're taking that exercise away.

KAGAN: J.Q., what do you say about that from "Popular Science?" Lot of clapping in the audience here.

QUAIN: I think that...

KAGAN: You guys must deal with social issues of science in your magazine. It's one thing to invent a cool thing, but we need to get America walking more, not getting a help in that walk. Don't you think?

QUAIN: Well, I think that's true. But we do make adjustments. I mean, a few years ago cell phones weren't very common and it seemed like the strangest thing to see somebody walking down the street talking on the phone or without a hands-free unit. And now...

KAGAN: Those kind of people used be taken away, if you were just walking down the street talking to yourself like that.

QUAIN: But you see it all over Manhattan and cities like New York City, of course, and San Francisco now. And I'm sure that there will be things like that, how people will run over people's toes. That will be inevitable somehow. Kids will figure out a way to cause disturbances on these, maybe piggy-backing each other, which they shouldn't do. There will probably be somebody arrested being the first drunk rider of a Segway.

But we do make adjustments and laws change and we might change the streets a little bit to accommodate some of these things.

NYE: Sure. You guys...

KAGAN: Bill, you like to look into the future. Bill, do you think that we're going to remember this day just like many of us remember the first day we saw a personal computer or the first day we say the Macintosh?

NYE: You might remember it in that light. But it's not going to be -- I don't think it's going to be as big a deal as for example pantyhose, which has been thrown around.... KAGAN: Anything you want to share with us, Bill?

NYE: No. I just think it's been compared. I think this will be a nice advance. This is will be good. For certain applications it'll be ideal. But I don't think it's going to be the worldbeater astonishing thing because of that energy limitation . Now, I have got another question. When you ride this thing, do you -- are we recommended that we -- it is recommended that we wear a helmet, is that right?

KAGAN: J.Q., do you know about that?

QUAIN: I don't. But some of the people I've seen riding it they usually do have helmets on. But there again, you know, when we were kids we didn't have helmets on the bicycles and we rode...

KAGAN: And now we're all here.

QUAIN: And now we're all using helmets.

NYE: Well, actually, Daryn, we're not all here. There's been some pretty serious bike wrecks. And so...

KAGAN: That is true. And to the cyclist, I know that it is important to you. But Bill...

NYE: Has anybody taken this thing to Holland? I'm serious.

KAGAN: Holland?

NYE: Has anybody taken this vehicle...

KAGAN: Bill, we have to go. I just have to get the final word about pantyhose. A lot of women out there would say that was a step back, not a step forward. OK. I want to leave you with that though.

I want to thank all of our guests here: Bill Nye the Science Guy, John Heilemann of "Time" magazine and also John Quain, J.Q., of "Popular Science." Great to have you with us. Thank to our studio audience. I'll see you again -- once again tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out."

Now it's time for Judy Woodruff to take it away from here. Judy, over to you.

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