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CNN THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN
Does Osama bin Laden Have the Ability to Make Dirty Bombs?; New Terrorism Worries Surface
Aired December 4, 2001 - 20:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN.
Just in time for the holidays: new worries about terrorism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've got to do everything we can to prevent the enemy from hitting us again. So we are following every hint, every lead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: "Flashpoint": cities on alert. A POINT panel of mayors on how they are handling a potential crisis.
Nuclear weapons and dirty bombs: Does Osama bin Laden have the know-how or the ammunition?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: We know he has side information about biological, chemical, radiological, nuclear weapons. But we have to be prepared for all eventualities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: On September 11, they lost loved ones. Tomorrow, 15 families pay a visit to Capitol Hill. Terrorist attack survivors and their plea for help.
And O.J. Simpson's latest run in with the law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no arrest warrant for Mr. Simpson. You saw the FBI leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT. Now from Washington, Greta Van Susteren.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Is your hometown a target for terrorists? That is no idle question, especially now after the Bush administration has reissued the nationwide terrorism alert. What could happen in your city? And what are officials doing to stop it?
"Flashpoint": cities on alert. I'm joined by the mayors of three very different cities, Marc Morial of New Orleans, James Hahn of Los Angeles and Wellington Webb of Denver.
First to you, Mayor Morial, today in "The Washington Post" it's reported that the intelligence is surprised at how much information that bin Laden has about a dirty bomb. It doesn't say that he has a dirty bomb, but they're surprised how far he has gone to get one.
What are you doing in reaction to that type of information?
MARC MORIAL, MAYOR, NEW ORLEANS: I think we've been on continuous alert since September 11. And I think that's the case for all cities. And we're especially paying attention to ensure that all of our valuable and important public assets, like water systems especially, are properly protected. Public buildings and the like.
Here in New Orleans, we have special concerns with respect to special events that we'll be hosting, including the Sugar Bowl, the Super Bowl and Mardi Gras upcoming. But I think that I'm very, very proud of the way in which our police department, our fire department and our public health personnel, both at the city level and the state level have responded and are taking all of these threats seriously. Things are different.
VAN SUSTEREN: Mayor Morial, I'm -- you know, I don't pretend to have the answers, but how do you prepare yourself for something like the dirty bomb? Is it even possible?
MORIAL: Well, I think that you can be prepared. And I think our obligation is to do everything in our power to ensure that we're prepared. And it involves trying to make sure we do everything to prevent it. But it also involves trying to make sure that we have adequate response systems in place.
So in the event that there's a problem, we know how to respond. But I think Frank -- FDR's famous saying, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" is so apropos. We cannot be afraid. We've got to be strong and we've got to be vigilant. And I think mayors and what we call the domestic troops, our police officers and our firefighters and our public health personnel have gone the extra mile in every city of this country, since September 11, to make sure that our people are safe
VAN SUSTEREN: Mayor Webb, speaking of the mile. You have the mile high city. I'll take the cue from Mayor Morial. What is different in your city, between now and before September 10? Why is it safer?
WELLINGTON WEBB, MAYOR, DENVER: Well, we had to preliminary runs. We had both the Oklahoma City bombing trial was held here in Denver, which increased our security preparation. And then, we also had the industrial economic summit that President Clinton hosted here in Denver as well, which also increased our security preparations. Obviously, since September 11, what has transpired is something so horrific, that it really increased our attention to detail everything from some of the items that Mayor Morial mentioned, from airport security, to security at water systems, public buildings. But it also -- what we tried to do also is learn from some of the dilemmas that occurred in New York City with the -- with some of the phone systems having difficulty, the overloading of the 911 system, the difficulty with cell phones.
So we place a lot of emphasis on some of our own infrastructure. Backup phone systems also additional decontamination systems at our hospitals. A number of hospital beds set aside for catastrophic use, making sure all of our paramedics and emergency personnel have all the latest equipment necessary in working with the federal government to make sure that some of the types of equipment that they have online, that we also believe that local governments also need to have.
And also, working with some of our suburban neighbors, so that it is not just Denver alone. It's the Denver metropolitan area working in conjunction with each other.
VAN SUSTEREN: Mayor Webb, it sounds like your city is ready to respond to a tragedy. But I guess my question is, how do you prevent one? And you know, with all the sort of -- you know, I don't me to be an alarmist. And the intelligence doesn't say that he has, for instance, Osama bin Laden, a dirty bomb. But how do you as mayor, is it possible to actually prevent -- what steps do you take?
WEBB: Well, you know, first thing, you can't -- I mean, no one could have predicted two aircraft flying into the World Trade Center. I mean, we prepare for the worst. We hope for the best. We try to be vigilant and diligent in looking at everything that looks suspicious, not only police personnel and everyone in law enforcement, but citizens themselves. Everybody has to being engaged in this.
And we also have to work very closely with the federal authorities, and state authorities, where we don't want to be an alarmist. But at the same time, we want to be prepared, but we cannot live our life in terms of thinking that there's a bomb behind every tree, and just live in a mushroom.
VAN SUSTEREN: Mayor Hahn, what's the most difficult aspect of your job vis-a-vis security in Los Angeles?
JAMES HAHN, MAYOR, LOS ANGELES: I think, clearly, what we've been talking about, the most difficult part, is reassuring people that they're safe, that the city is safe as it's ever been. We're coordinating our efforts with local law enforcement. Not only the Los Angeles police department, but the sheriff's department.
But I think getting the message out, that it is OK to go on about your life. Go shopping.
VAN SUSTEREN: But what is -- I mean, Mayor Hahn, that's sort of the curious message. I mean, exactly what is the message? We had Tom Ridge come out yesterday and see, "Be on alert." This is the third alert, but live your normal life.
I mean, it may be impossible, but I mean like, what is this message that you're communicating to your citizens?
HAHN: Well the message again, as Marc Morial pointed out, we can't let the terrorists win by giving up the freedoms that America provides for all of us. And if we crawl into a hole, then that will only help the terrorists think that they've really achieved a much greater victory than they have.
We need to pull together. We are making the city safe. We are making sure our water supply is safe, our airport is safe, our roads are safe. We're on the lookout.
Our police department is in constant contact with FAA. A lot of intelligence sharing is going on. A lot of things that we learned, in terms of monitoring the Internet when had the Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles last year, have led us to be much more vigilant about, you know, looking out for all the people who might want to mount a terrorist attack.
We're doing everything we can to worry about the things, so that the people don't have to worry. And I think that's the message that all the mayors are trying to say here is that we are being extra vigilant. We are being very careful. We are worrying about all the possibilities. Can you prevent everything in the world from happening? No. But you certainly can do a much better job of providing security at places that we think present the most likely targets.
VAN SUSTEREN: Mayor Hahn, what about mass transit or traffic in Los Angeles? Does that present any particular problem?
HAHN: Well, you know, we have a subway system that we've been monitoring. I sit on the MTA board. I ask for a security assessment to be done there. And we recognize that there may have been some gaps that we need to fill. So we're working on filling those gaps.
Clearly, the freeway system, the bridges and the overpasses are something we're paying particular attention to. Our light rail systems, our buses. But also, our port. We have one of the largest seaports in the world, Los Angeles Harbor. Our airport, one of the busiest airports in the country. We're paying particular attention to those things. And we've erred on the side of safety and precaution, which has made it a little less convenient for the traveling public, but I think most people are willing to put up with a little inconvenience to have extra security.
VAN SUSTEREN: In the 30 seconds we have left, let me go for to Marc Morial, mayor of New Orleans. Is there any particular problem your city has vis-a-vis this issue that the other cities don't?
MORIAL: It may be the challenges we face with the upcoming special events, but we're going to be prepared, because it's something New Orleans has always done well. But with Super Bowl and Mardi Gras, we're just redoubling our efforts and paying attention to details like never before.
VAN SUSTEREN: Mayor Webb, before we go, what about your city, Denver? Do you have any particular problems?
WEBB: I think that our city is prepared, as are other cities. The only thing, if we could get more information from the Feds when they say we're on high alert, give us a little more information on what the alert is.
VAN SUSTEREN: And my thanks to the three of you. Thank you, gentlemen for joining me tonight.
MORIAL: Thank you.
HAHN: Thank you.
WEBB: Thanks, Greta.
VAN SUSTEREN: In just a minute, a threat that could be any city's worst nightmare. And later, who said this half-hour was an O.J.-free zone?
ANNOUNCER: Next, does bin Laden have the ultimate weapon, nuclear terrorism? When THE POINT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: Any bomb is bad. A dirty bomb is worse. It spreads radiation. U.S. officials say within the past year, a senior al-Qaeda official held up a cylinder he claimed contained the necessary radioactive material. Maybe the man was just bragging. Maybe not.
Here to talk about how dirty bombs work and what terrorists could do with them is Arjun Makhijani. He is president of the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research.
Arjun, you heard me talk with the mayors a few seconds ago about this idea of dirty bombs. The -- do you think this is a real risk for us?
ARJUN MAKHIJANI, NUCLEAR FUSION EXPERT: Yes, radiological weapons are a real risk. There are radioactive materials in lots of places, The Director General of the International Atomic Agency has also expressed his concern recently after September 11. There are radiological materials, of course, in power plants. There are radiological materials in weapons sites.
VAN SUSTEREN: But can you get them?
MAKHIJANI: Well, you know, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, there's been a lot of concern about Soviet nuclear weapons usable materials and Soviet radiological materials. Chechens threatened Moscow with radioactive materials and actually planted radioactive materials in a park in Moscow some years ago. VAN SUSTEREN: Are these portable, though, in a sense? You can get them into the United States? I mean, I understand you get some materials here if you wanted to in the United States, if some are willing to sell them to you. But I mean, is it really sort of realistic? Is it portable? Is there a delivery system?
MAKHIJANI: Some are more easily portable than others. For instance, some of the most deadly one, like plutonium, are more portable because they don't have a lot of gamma external radiation, like x-rays, that'll kill you even if it's in box.
Plutonium can be relatively easily shielded. So it won't kill you, if you carry it around in a box. Cesium 137, which is more widely available in hospitals and radiation treatments, food irradiation plants and so on, is very, very -- you want wave that around. And even in a cylinder, it would have enough radiation if you had a lot of it, to kill you.
VAN SUSTEREN: So if you're going to do damage to someone. What's the most realistic way to get it? And what's the most realistic delivery system to, for instance, a city in this country?
MAKHIJANI: Well, you know, I don't know that I want to go into detail about delivery systems. But I think clearly there is a black market for radiological materials. Many people have been caught trying to sell it.
The most important -- and you know, many different ways in terms of -- many different ways have to thought of. Many things have to protected. Buildings have to be protected. Streets, and as you saying, subways, water supplies and so on.
And I think the local emergency responders really need to be trained with radioactivity, And health officials need to understand and talk to the public about this.
VAN SUSTEREN: Is it realistic to think about prevention in almost sort of a 100 percent safety net? I mean, the mayors come on and they talk about, you know, the response. And they may be in a really tough position. This may be impossible to prevent, if it gets in the wrong hands.
MAKHIJANI: Well, of course, you know, there's no 100 percent prevention. There are lots of radiological materials out there. But unfortunately, I think we're not doing the things that we can, globally and in the United States, in order to do prevention. For instance...
VAN SUSTEREN: Tell me what we need to do?
MAKHIJANI: OK, we've lots of plutonium in the United States. We've got lots of plutonium in Russia. The U.S.-Russian program to account for and secure this plutonium has been downgraded. The funds for it have been reduced. And the priority for it has been reduced. And Mr. Bush and Mr. Putin did not talk about it, so far a I know, with any high priority when they met. VAN SUSTEREN: Can we move fast enough to solve that program?
MAKHIJANI: Yes, we can move fast enough, if there's cooperation, which there is now. The money needs to be there. And the technical people need to cooperate on the ground, to lockup these materials and begin accounting programs.
That's one of the most important things. You got to have the ledger books. And you got to match them up. Even in the United States, the accounting programs for -- even for plutonium, the most sensitive materials. are not good enough.
VAN SUSTEREN: What can our mayors do, if anything, in the last few seconds we have?
MAKHIJANI: Well, I think first of all, we need to immobilize the surplus plutonium so it cannot be stolen.
VAN SUSTEREN: Which is not a mayor thing, but more a federal government?
MAKHIJANI: Federal thing. That program has been zeroed out in the United States. No money for it. Zero.
VAN SUSTEREN: Since when?
MAKHIJANI: Since the beginning of this year or the end of last year. And this needs to be restored urgently. The mayors need to train their people in emergency response with radiological instruments, how to use Geiger counters. And there need to be health authorities in whom the local people have confidence.
Unfortunately, the U.S. Department of Energy, which makes nuclear weapons, has a tradition of saying well, radiation won't hurt you. And they have a conflict of interest and people don't trust them enough.
VAN SUSTEREN: And maybe, of course, that will change with the news, as we hear more and more.
MAKHIJANI: I hope not.
VAN SUSTEREN: Arjun -- well, I hope they'll take it to be more vigilant and careful. My thanks for joining me.
MAKHIJANI: Thank you very much.
VAN SUSTEREN: As if they haven't had enough problems, now they are getting more from Congress. What do they want? I will ask one woman, when THE POINT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: More than a dozen people who lost loved ones in the September 11 attacks are heading to Washington tomorrow. They will demand Congress get its act together and agree on a bill to help people devastated by the attacks.
Ginny Bauer lost her husband September 11. And she joins me from Rumson, New Jersey.
Ginny, thanks for joining me this evening.
GINNY BAUER, WIDOW: Thank you for having me.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ginny, why are you coming to Washington?
BAUER: Well, we have a message that we wish to deliver to our representatives. There is a bill that is being -- that is before the House, that we're hoping will be passed immediately, which will simply provide us tax amnesty for our last two years.
It would an enormous sense of financial relief to get this money. And for whatever reason, it's been languishing. And we're just hoping that we can throw some attention to it.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ginny, you say for any reason in your mind is there any reason? Do you excuse Congress for not getting it done faster?
BAUER: No. There is no reason that it should be sitting before them. I think for whatever reasons, our needs have been somewhat ignored. There's been so many issues that have developed since September 11.
But I think the needs of the victims who are left, which is us, has to be considered. And our financial needs are so important. Because it's almost impossible to deal with your grief if you cannot put food on the table. And in some cases, that's the situation.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ginny, your husband died, leaving you and your three children, ages 17, 14 and 12. And you just mentioned that needs are being ignored. Is there any particular need, beyond what you're coming to Washington for, is there anything else that sort of Americans or Congress can do to manage your life easier and that of the other people who've suffered?
BAUER: The American public has shown an enormous sense of generosity. And their spirit has been so appreciated by all of us. No, I think our message is simply to get this bill done. This is an immediate sense and form of financial security for us, as I mentioned. And we're not dealing with too many other logistics. We're not trying to get too involved with other legislation. We simply want this bill passed.
VAN SUSTEREN: Is there some member of Congress that is spearheading this for you and helping you guys out?
BAUER: Well the senators from my state, Senators Torricelli and Corzine have been very instrumental in getting it through to the Senate. And we are meeting with members of the House. And we're even meeting with the speaker of the house. We hope to tomorrow, to address our concerns. And hopefully, I think they're just going to pay attention to our needs.
There doesn't seem to be any reasonable objections to the bill. It's mirrored after what the government provides for members of the Armed Forces, who are killed at war. And our loved ones were killed. They were targeted and killed on American soil. And the reality is, this is our money. This is money that we have paid into the system over the past two years, And so, we're not asking them to give us anything. We're simply asking them to allow to us help ourselves.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ginny, you're coming tomorrow there. I'm sure they're going to listen real hard to you and the others who are joining you tomorrow.
But what if a month from now, we're having this conversation, they still haven't done anything? Then what are you going to think?
BAUER: I think we'll have a problem. The victims, as a group, have become close. And we're getting stronger. As I say, we're not asking for anything more than what we well deserve. We're hopeful. And we're on the mark that hopefully, before the end of this year and before the holidays, they will pass this bill for us.
VAN SUSTEREN: Before I let you go, how are you and your children doing?
BAUER: We're doing as well as we can. I have wonderful children who've been very supportive. And I'm blessed with that. But I would love to be able to get this bill passed, have a little sense of financial relief, and you know, be home and be a mother, and go back taking care of my family.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ginny Bauer, thank you very much for joining me. And good luck tomorrow here in Washington.
BAUER: Thank you so much for having me.
VAN SUSTEREN: Times have really changed.
Tonight's final point, not Ecstasy. Earlier today, DEA agents and the FBI raided the Florida home of O.J. Simpson. Allegations involving the drug Ecstasy. Through his lawyer, Simpson has denied any criminal activity. And he has not been charged with any crime.
But this is Simpson's third scrape with the authorities. The most recent, road rage. He was acquitted. And of course, who could forget the 1994 murder charges? Also acquitted. That murder trial consumed the nation, and admittedly consumed my attention as well. My point, once again we are consumed with tragedy and death. This time though, in the thousands, which is not meant to diminish the importance of the lives of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson. Today, O.J. Simpson's problems are just a footnote. The world has certainly changed.
Let me know what you think about O.J., dirty bombs and what the government can do to help the families of the September 11 victims. Send an e-mail to askgreta@cnn.com. That's one word, askgreta. I'm Greta Van Susteren in Washington.
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