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CNN Talkback Live

Free-For-All Friday

Aired December 07, 2001 - 15:23   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appalling scenes of destruction made on that terrifying Sunday morning.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just a horrific scene, and a horrific moment.

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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Americans have known surprise attacks, but never before on thousands of civilians.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a lot of things that happened after December 7, 1941, that are happening now, and will continue to happen. The most important of which is, we became one people.

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DARYN KAGAN, HOST: Also, who decides what to do with Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Obviously he has been the principle person who has been harboring the al Qaeda network in that country. He does not deserve the medal of freedom.

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KAGAN: And an Air Force pilot is outraged by her off-duty wardrobe. Why does Colonel Martha McSally want to take it off?

(APPLAUSE) KAGAN: It is Friday. Can you tell? Welcome, everybody, to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out." We're getting a little bit of a late start today, because we were listening to the president speak on a very important occasion.

I'm Daryn Kagan and, as I mentioned, it's Friday. It's free-for- all Friday. And we have talk show hosts from all around the country and a lot of topics to squeeze in, from Pearl Harbor to American women in Islamic abayas.

Let's go ahead and introduce out guests. We have Bernie Ward. He's the host of the Bernie Ward show on KGO Newstalk, AM 810 in San Francisco. Also, syndicated radio show talk host Lionel, and Debbie Schlussel. She is political commentator for the syndicated "Mancow's Morning Madhouse" -- also the woman behind "Debbie Does Politics," at Worldnetdaily.com.

That one made Joe Madison smile. He's a Radio One talk show host, known as the Black Eagle, on WOL Washington. To all of our guests, welcome. It's great to have you with us on this Friday.

Let's get started. Starting right away with Pearl Harbor versus September 11. Which attack had the greatest impact on the United States? We have some numbers for you, before we have our guests jump in. According to this new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, 72 percent go with September 11, 2001, a greater impact on history. Twenty-five percent vote for December 7, 1941.

Let's turn it over to our guests and see what they think. Lionel, you're first. September 11 or December 7 -- which is going to have a bigger impact on history?

LIONEL, SYNDICATED RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: September the 11th. World War II proper had already started prior to December the 7th. There were certainly other countries involved in that. The effects of September the 11th on this country will have effects that nobody can even conceive of yet, that will make World War II -- I hate to say this -- look like a bad day.

KAGAN: Now, you bring up World War II. Debbie, I'm going to turn it over to you now and point out that what has happened on September 11 drew the U.S. into Afghanistan, which -- can you compare what is happening in Afghanistan with an entire World War II?

DEBBIE SCHLUSSEL, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, I think that historical analogies are never neat and tidy. I think the figures that you spoke about reflect the fact that when you have polls that have mostly people who can't even remember September 11 -- I'm sorry, 1941, they're going to say September 11 was bigger.

But with Pearl Harbor, it pulled our country together against fascism, and ultimately, against the Cold War and against communism, and we defeated both of those, pretty much. I don't know if we're going to be able to pull our country together against radical Islam, because already, our president has said this is not about Islam. But frankly, it's about radical Islam, and until we realize that, we won't defeat terrorists in the Middle East.

KAGAN: Joe, let's bring you in here. What does the Black Eagle think? Do you think that the survey is skewed, simply because you are going to have more people in the poll, obviously, that weren't around for World War II than were around for September 11?

JOE MADISON, WOL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think you're right on that. Both are extremely important. People around December 7, today on our show, we asked people to call in. Well, again, the average age where people 66, to even, I think, 82, were calling in.

And the impact of December 7 -- look what happened. We won, we introduced the nuclear age, we introduced cold war. We sat there -- there were certain scientific advancements. Things like radar came about. The world was divided up among the first world, second world, third world. It was a tremendous impact.

Economically, there was an impact. People talked about rationing. People talked about at night they couldn't turn on their lights, they couldn't drive down the street with headlights on. No, I think December 7 changed this world to where we're dealing with the changes even today.

But that doesn't take away what happened September 11. We will all remember where we were on September 11, like those during World War II remember where they were.

KAGAN: That, we will. Bernie, I'm going to get you in here in a moment, but I want to go to an expert in the audience, someone who can talk to being provoked. We have a lot of mayors with us today, because the National League of Cities is meeting here in Atlanta. And one of those mayors, from Fitchburg, Massachusetts, Mayor Mary Whitney.

MAYOR MARY WHITNEY, FITCHBURG, MASSACHUSETTS: Thank you very much.

KAGAN: You remember World War II, of course.

WHITNEY: I certainly do. I was in the first grade at the time, and I remember being scared to death of the airplanes going over, after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. And what I remember mostly is how frightened I was, especially in the evening.

And my concern now is, what is going to happen to the youngsters that are going to have gone through September 11? Because they basically have watched this day after day on television, and it's constantly on their mind. And I hope that the schools and the counselors and everybody is making sure that these children do not worry about this for the rest of their life. Because I can very distinctly remember what happened in December, 1941.

KAGAN: Bernie, the mayor makes a good point. The children, the first-graders of today, witnessed this and watched it on television. Obviously, if you're a first grader, like the mayor, you didn't see it on television. It wasn't in your face every single day. Could that mean a greater impact for their lives, as they grow up?

BERNIE WARD, KGO RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: No, I don't think so. It's an impact that they know it happened. Their parents talked to them, et cetera. But there's no comparison between the two. In December 7, 1941 America was isolated. America wanted nothing to do with the rest of the world. Roosevelt was sneaking destroyers over to Britain to try to help during Lend-Lease. America was not the world power it is today.

As Joe has already said, because of December 7, 1941, America achieved a world power status it has yet to relinquish. We learned how to gear up our factories; we became a manufacturing giant. We became the leader because of our military and our science in everything from computers to almost everything we talk about in the modern world. All of that is a result of what happened on December 7. It drew us into the world in a way we never would have been otherwise.

September 11 was a terrible thing. But there is nowhere near the moral black and white after September 11 as we see, for example, in Afghanistan as we debate what goes on in Israel with the Palestinians, et cetera. There just isn't the same moral rectitude with this one as there was with December 7.

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: Hold on, we're going to go from looking back to looking forward. And we're going to look toward Afghanistan and the issue of justice. What should happen to Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, as he is captured? Is it an American justice problem, or should you leave it to Afghanistan?

We'll talk about that -- stay with us -- after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We go from a day of infamy to a day of reckoning. As the last of the Taliban strongholds fall, yesterday there was talk of -- can you believe this -- amnesty deals in exchange for the surrender of Kandahar. But the U.S. Defense Department doesn't appear interested in letting Taliban leaders off the hook.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUMSFELD: Our cooperation and assistance with those people would clearly take a turn south if something were to be done with respect to the senior people in that situation.

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KAGAN: Read into that what you will -- Donald Rumsfeld saying that it would take a turn south.

Well, now that an interim government has been selected for Afghanistan, who is going to decide what happens to Taliban leaders like Mullah Omar? Going to get to our panel of guests in a second. But you know guys, the audience here has a ton of opinions. So we're going to go right up here.

Kim (ph), who looks like a nice laid-back girl from California, knows exactly what she would do with Mullah Omar.

Kim, what would you do?

KIM: Well, personally, since the crime was committed on our soil, then I think that we have first dibs at him. If anyone in Afghanistan, if they have a problem with him, they can have him after us. But crime is committed on our soil, so I think it's definitely an American issue as to what will happen to him.

KAGAN: Got to come back to the U.S. A lot of support here in the audience for that.

But Ricky (ph) from Oklahoma has a different opinion about that -- Ricky.

RICKY: Well, I think it's an American problem; but I think if we let the Afghans take care of him, we'll have a lot speedier justice. The Americans will take 10 years, where the Afghans would have it done in 30 days.

KAGAN: What would the Black Eagle do with Mullah Omar. Would you leave him over there to be dealt with with his own people, or do you want to bring him over here?

MADISON: Look, first of all, look at the terminology we're using: It's an interim government. We don't even know if they have a constitution. The bottom line is bring him here. And I know it's going to happen, because first of all the American people are going to demand it.

But what amazes me today is we don't even know where he is.

KAGAN: Along with Osama bin Laden; we don't know where he is either.

MADISON: But no, listen: We were negotiating with him just yesterday. Somebody was talking to him. And overnight he disappeared.

So my thinking is if he can disappear overnight, after one day of negotiating with him -- and there should never be any negotiation on this one -- we need to bring him here, bring him here quickly, and let us deal with him as far as our justice system. And let the world see how we handle these situations.

KAGAN: But Debbie, to bring you in here, Hamid Karzai, who is the head of that interim government, does have a tough problem here. He doesn't just have to answer to the U.S. and get the U.S. help, he also has to answer to the people back in Afghanistan, especially the Pashtun in the south. And they might not be too pleased. In fact, they wouldn't, if Mullah Omar was handed over to the U.S.

SCHLUSSEL: Well, I don't really think it's a matter of whether or not they're pleased. The fact is that we were attacked, and it should be what the U.S. wants.

However, I don't think that we should try it publicly in the United States, because it won't be the Nuremberg trials. What it will be like is -- our whole justice system has turned into is the farcical O.J. trials...

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: We'll go to the military tribunal. President Bush has pulled out the military tribunal -- use that.

SCHLUSSEL: Well, if we do that, then that's what it should be. But those are not public; and I don't think this should be a public dancing Ito spectacle like the O.J. trials.

KAGAN: Going back to the audience.

(CROSSTALK)

WARD: Let's understand: It isn't the O.J. trial. We already prosecuted the bombers from 1993 of the World Trade Center. We convicted them. They're in jail.

This nonsense that the American judicial system can't hold a public trial, that we should put it all in secret, that we shouldn't know what the rules of evidence are, that we haven't got an ability as Americans to be able to see this carried out -- and the idea that the guy from Oklahoma wants blood in 30 days rather than 10 years -- maybe we ought to control a little bit of that blood-lust too, and let the court system go and prove that...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHLUSSEL: I'm sorry, sir, we were attacked.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHLUSSEL: We were attacked, and we have to respond and fight fire with fire. And he is...

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: I'm going to let the guy from Oklahoma respond.

Ricky, they're calling you out, Ricky. What do you have to say to them?

RICKY: Well, I think we ought to take care of him swift. Swift justice is the best way to do it. And if we can't do it -- we have so many crimes here in the United States, you know...

(CROSSTALK) RICKY: ... without even putting him to trial.

KAGAN: Give the gentlemen from Oklahoma a chance here.

Go ahead, Ricky.

RICKY: A lot of our trials here in the United States will go for months without even giving him a trial. Look at Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing. He'll be on death row for the next 10 years, and we won't do anything to him.

KAGAN: Sounds like the audience is behind Ricky from Oklahoma.

Jim from Illinois wants to jump in on this one. Jim, go ahead.

JIM: As much as I hate to say it, as an Army veteran, 23 years, this is a crime against humanity, and it's got to be turned over to an international tribunal to solve, because this is a crime against humans.

KAGAN: So the U.S. doesn't just have ownership on this?

JIM: Well, we do. But unfortunately we're viewed as the 800- pound gorilla on the block. And they think it's an American problem; it is not an American problem. Think about the Baader-Meinhof Gang during the '80s in Germany. Think about the gangs that happened in Italy, when they shot up Leonardo da Vinci Airport. Terrorism is a crime against humanity, and ought to be dealt with as such.

KAGAN: Lionel, I haven't heard from you.

LIONEL: Yeah, and for good reason, because I'm astounded. First of all...

KAGAN: We left you speechless? We left Lionel speechless?

LIONEL: We keep talking about justice. Bring him to justice. Put him on trial.

Wait a minute. What we really mean is we want to kill him. Now, do we kill him after we have a tribunal? Do we kill him in a cave? Do we say, "Hey, look, it's Osama." Bang. He had a gun. A lot of cops do it. We take his hand Print and we put them on the AK-47. Look, he was pointing at me. Hey, that's it.

We keep talking about bringing him to justice, bring justice to him. This is not probable cause. I'm a lawyer. This is not a crime. It's not a crime -- it's a war. And this guy, we want him dead. Like the fellow from Oklahoma said, and we're...

KAGAN: You don't think what happened on September 11 was a crime, Lionel?

LIONEL: No, no, no. It's war. This is not a crime involving probable cause and Miranda rights. (CROSSTALK)

SCHLUSSEL: That's what the American people...

KAGAN: I bet a lot of people across America might disagree with you. We need to get a break in. We're going to talk about the issue of abayas and what do U.S. women military members have to wear in Saudi Arabia. This gets people talking. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. A topic that people have a strong opinion on. You know the old saying, well, when you are in Rome, you know, you do as the Romans do.

But a U.S. fighter pilot who is stationed in Saudi Arabia isn't having any of that. We are talking about Lieutenant Colonel Martha McSally. She is suing the military over a rule that forces her to cover up in a black abaya when she leaves the base. That is a head- to-toe Islamic robe worn by women in the region. McSally says this rule discriminates against women. It undermines her authority and violates her freedom of religion.

U.S. Central Command in the region says that following local custom prevents servicewomen from being harassed or becoming the target of cultural controversy. What do you think?

The woman flies -- she flies a fighter plane. A fighter jet. And she's not allowed to even drive a car. Let's go right to the audience and to the women. Mert (ph) from Alabama know about this.

MERT: Well, I'm an independent cuss and I believe in breaking rules sometimes. But if you are in the military or a tourist and if you are in a foreign country, you have to honor their traditions, just like they have to honor ours when they come here.

KAGAN: What does the audience think about that? A little bit different.

Now what about Debbie? She says that this is violating her religious freedom, that she -- she sees this as a religious garment and she is not Muslim. And so why should she have to wear that?

SCHLUSSEL: Well, I don't even think it's a question of religious freedom. It's a question of we are there protecting their country. The very existence of it. And if it weren't for us protecting them in the Gulf War -- which is the reason we are still there -- they wouldn't have a country. The monarchy would be relegated to their Swiss chalets and they'd be a province of Iraq.

And so she's very right. There's a big problem with Saudi Arabia claiming they are not a radical country -- radical Islam controlled. And yet they won't respect our servicepeople who are saving their very lives.

And, you know, this happened in the Gulf War when the first President Bush had to say grace before meals and deliver benedictions on a boat. He couldn't do it on Saudi soil. And that's an insult to our country. We are there protecting them.

KAGAN: Bob from Ohio liked that comment. Turns out we have the attorney for Lieutenant Colonel McSally on the phone with us, Thomas Neuberger. Are you with us, sir?

THOMAS NEUBERGER, ATTORNEY FOR MARTHA MCSALLY: Yes, I am.

KAGAN: Now, I read about this story a few months ago. Why has it come to this point where you filed a lawsuit?

NEUBERGER: Well, it's been seven years Martha has been trying to stop this policy that requires 850 women to ride in the back of the bus and be segregated whenever they travel off base. It requires over 850 women to wear Muslim religious clothing.

She worked for seven years, took it to the civilian authorities and they refused to change the policy despite the fact that neither the government -- the government doesn't require it. Neither does the State Department. State Department women dress just conservatively in long skirts and blouses with long sleeves.

KAGAN: What about the people who say, you know what, you're there to do a job. You are not there as a tourist and when you're in the country -- when in Rome you have to follow those customs?

NEUBERGER: I think the war -- the war effort over there maybe should be characterized by what First Lady Martha Bush -- Laura Bush said. She declared the fight against terrorism is a fight for the rights and dignity of women.

But when Lieutenant Colonel Martha McSally comes down from her jet fighter plane, saving lives and protecting troops, once she gets off the plane, she's treated like a second class citizen. Just because she's a woman.

KAGAN: Tom, hang on. Our audience has either some questions or some comments for you. Beth, you go ahead.

BETH: Well, when -- number one, if they were to go off the base in civilian clothes, she would probably be stoned to death because that's their culture.

And number two, that's just another type of uniform. When she joined the military, she knew she was going to have to wear a uniform. The policy has been in place. She knew that when she joined.

KAGAN: Tom, why don't you respond to that?

NEUBERGER: Well, I guess if we had black troops in South Africa or countries that thought we should segregate blacks I think our country would stand up for the rights of our servicemen and our servicewomen.

The government of Saudi Arabia does not require this. Any woman from Europe, South America, anywhere, who goes to Saudi Arabia is only asked to dress modestly.

The men go off base, wear slacks, jeans, T-shirts with collars and are not allowed to wear Saudi robes or clothing. It's only the women who are being demeaned and treated like property.

MADISON: Can I ask a question?

DARYN: Go ahead.

MADISON: Who requires it? And the question is, it's not being -- who requires it then? I mean, I legitimately would like to know.

LIONEL: That's my point, too. Who is making this woman wear this?

KAGAN: Tom, who exactly? Is it the U.S. military who says -- who tell the women they have to wear it?

NEUBERGER: The policy goes back to shortly after the Gulf War. I believe the lawsuit will show that it was a decision made by the political leadership, mistakenly seeking to seek favor with the Saudi government. The military, being good soldiers, are taking the blame for it. But it's the civilian leadership that we have the dispute with.

KAGAN: What happens...

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: Let's just say, Tom, for the sake of conversation, what if the lieutenant colonel went off base and didn't follow the rules? What would be the ramifications?

MADISON: Exactly.

NEUBERGER: She'd be -- she'd be court martialed.

KAGAN: Really?

NEUBERGER: Surely. She's been -- for 13 months she's been stationed there and she does not go off base for recreational purposes because she would have to wear this religious clothing.

But as a high-ranking officer she has to go off base for military purposes to deal with Saudi officers and when she does so, she goes dressed as a Saudi woman, not as a lieutenant colonel of the United States Air Force defending their country. She goes dressed in demeaning Saudi religious clothing when she deals on official business representing the United States.

KAGAN: We do want to say that we contacted the Pentagon, obviously, for comment on this and they turned down our invitation. So we did have the offer out there for them to talk about it.

Our -- our audience is going crazy for this one. And I see Bob. He's from California. I think the arm's going to fall off if we don't give you a chance to talk. What do you think, Bob?

BOB: I just think that some of the comments I have heard is people are confusing what Muslimism (sic) and radical Muslimism (sic) is, and we have to understand the difference between the two. And we have to understand where it's coming from and what they view us as, you know.

And all the questions that you have asked today, we mixed the two up and we haven't really learned the difference between the two. And it's -- the danger is there that if we don't start understanding where these ideas are coming from, these views of clothes and -- and the position of women, who is doing what -- the Taliban isn't Muslimism (sic). They -- they are a -- a radical form of Muslimism (sic) that comes from the mind of one person.

SCHLUSSEL: Daryn...

KAGAN: Thank you. We're going to...

WARD: Daryn, we -- this is really simple.

KAGAN: You know, you guys, I just -- I have to get a break in. Otherwise I'll be in trouble. So let me get a break in. I want to say Tom Neuberger, thanks for coming on and explaining your client's position to us. We're going to wrap things up when we come back. And stay with us. Here comes a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Can't stop talking about the situation of the American fighter pilot having to wear the traditional Saudi dress. To show you how divisive this issue is, we have two girlfriends. They see the issue totally different from each other. Ladies?

LAUREN MCCATHRINE: Hi. I'm Lauren McCathrine (ph). I'm from Nashville, Tennessee. And I disagree with a lot of the people that have talked so far. I think that she's an American woman and she should be allowed to wear whatever she wants. If a woman from Saudi Arabia came here we would not force her to wear certain garments and I think she should be allowed to wear the garments she pleases.

KAGAN: And Kelly (ph) has a different opinion.

KELLY: Yes. I'm Kelly (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I'm from Nashville as well. And her job is to protect the good of the whole. And when you do that you're just going to have to make some sacrifices. And I commend her for doing -- for protecting us and going over there, but to make sacrifices and she will just have to regard that outfit, as that one woman said, as a uniform, and just not as a religious garment.

KAGAN: Very well said. I have a minute left and I want to go back to our guests and give you guys each about 15 seconds for a final thought. Ladies first. Debbie, go ahead. SCHLUSSEL: Well, I think it's ridiculous what one member of the audience said was that if she didn't wear it, she would be stoned by these people. What? Because they act like animals and can't control themselves at the sight of a woman.

We should respect that? That's ridiculous. And I'm sorry, but most of the Muslim world is controlled by radicals who impose these ridiculous rules.

KAGAN: OK. Sorry. I've got to cut you off. Bernie, final thought.

WARD: We shouldn't have a military in Saudi Arabia to begin with. When they are acting as a military they ought to be dressed that way and we ought stand up for women's rights wherever we are in any country.

KAGAN: Lionel, you go.

LIONEL: It's a stupid custom like a lot of customs are stupid. This isn't un-American. This is their stupid culture. And if she's there, that's the rules. Period.

KAGAN: OK. Send your letters to Lionel, all the people offended by that comment. Joe, 10 seconds. Go.

MADISON: Well, I think they are in that country. They have got to deal with it. But here -- you know who is at fault here? It's the policymakers. They are the ones who made the policy. Blame the United States.

KAGAN: And with that I have to say goodbye. Sorry. We are completely out of time. I want to say thank you to our guests, to everyone here in the audience and to you at home. I'm Daryn Kagan. This is TALKBACK LIVE.

We are lucky enough to have Judy Woodruff with us here in Atlanta. Judy, you take it from here and everyone have a great weekend.

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