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CNN Talkback Live

Osama bin Laden May Have Fled to Pakistan; Bin Laden Tape Release Delayed

Aired December 12, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, HOST: Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out." Hello, folks. I'm Leon Harris.

We have got of lot of breaking news going on here at CNN at this hour. Right now the nation is waiting for the release of the Osama bin Laden tape, the so-called smoking gun that we've been talking about for the last couple of days. We're going to be talking some more about that tape, and all the different controversy swirling around it.

But first, we've got this other late-breaking story, and when I say "late-breaking," I mean late, within the last hour or so. We have learned -- the "Christian Science Monitor" is now reporting that Osama bin Laden is no longer in Afghanistan. They're saying that he fled to Pakistan, and he did so some 10 days ago.

Let's get the latest now on this story from our national security correspondent, David Ensor, who is standing by in Washington. David, what have you learned?

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Leon, you'll no doubt hear the detailed account further down the program of what exactly the "Christian Science Monitor" is reporting -- the detailed account that I've -- apparently one person has given to that newspaper.

However, I have to tell you that officials in the U.S. government and various agencies and parts of the government have unanimously told us they think that Osama bin Laden is still in Afghanistan. In fact, one knowledgeable U.S. official said to me that the U.S. has rather recent evidence that bin Laden has not left Afghanistan. So they are treating this report in the "Christian Science Monitor" with more than a little skepticism.

HARRIS: Did they say exactly why they are so skeptical? Were they specific about the evidence, this recent evidence, that Osama bin Laden is still there? Because, for instance, this article -- and it's written by Philip Smucker -- he says that bin Laden has actually left twice during this Ramadan period. So apparently, he left and came back. Perhaps what the U.S. has is something in between those two periods?

ENSOR: Well, I really can't give you any more detail because they are not giving out any more detail themselves. The U.S., as it monitors bin Laden and the al Qaeda group, are doing it in ways they don't want to reveal. And sometimes if you tell the details of what you know, it shows how you know it, and prevents you from finding out things in the future.

So it's a sources and methods protection consideration for the U.S., that it doesn't want to detail exactly what it knows and how it knows it. And that is why they're not willing to say more than that. But they're pretty blunt in saying that they do not think that this "Christian Science Monitor" report is correct.

HARRIS: Interesting. Very interesting. David Ensor, thank you very much. We'll let you get back to work on that.

We are going to check in with some other guests. And before we get to them, I just want to advise you folk, we are still trying to track down this Philip Smucker to see if we can get him to join us and get a firsthand account from him about why he thinks this story is so credible.

Now let's go to our guests who are with us this afternoon. With us today is Larry Johnson. He is a former State Department official specializing in counterterrorism. John Fund is with the "Wall Street Journal." He is with us in Washington, you see there. And Abdel Bari Atwan. He is the editor-in-chief of the London-based newspaper, "Al-Quds," and he joins us from London today.

We thank you gentlemen very much for coming in. And I want to remind people that since we have Mr. Atwan here with us by satellite, there may be a bit of a delay. So I want to start with him first.

You, I understand, have just read this article. I'd like to know your impression of it.

(AUDIO GAP)

ABDEL BARI ATWAN, "AL-QUDS": ... and I followed this phenomenon carefully. You know, the man, actually he is an expert in disguise and actually giving misleading reports from time to time about his business. He never, you know, met the same person or different people at the same place -- usually tried to move, and to conduct his security and his movement by himself. And few people around him who managed to know where he is, actually, and where he is based.

So I think this is a part of disguise operation. News here, news there. He has left, he's not left. He is in Tora Bora, he is in Kandahar. And all that, actually, to mislead the American administration, or the American Pentagon leadership.

HARRIS: Let me ask you one more question, because it says that at one point bin Laden did leave 10 days ago. He was in Pakistan, however he sent his older son, his married son, Sala Udin (ph). If it was so dangerous for him to be there, why would he send his son back there?

ATWAN: I don't believe his son is involved in these kind of military activities. There are more senior leaders, or more senior figures, around bin Laden who will take care of al Qaeda if he managed to leave to Pakistan or other neighboring country. So I believe this is really -- I suspect these reports. And I think, you know, if bin Laden actually left the place, definitely he will take some of his family -- member of his family with him, his son, maybe other son, Mohammed, who is elder now.

So to say that he left his son in his place, I think for somebody like me, who has studied this phenomenon carefully, I think it is inaccurate.

HARRIS: It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and I haven't studied it as long as you have. Let's go to Larry Johnson in Washington. What's your take on this? What do you think, after reading it on first blush?

LARRY JOHNSON, FMR. STATE DEPT. OFFICIAL: I think it's unlikely. His ability to move -- he made be the master of disguise, but if you're 6'5", it's tough to shrink down and become 4'3". His rhetoric about fighting to the death -- you know, if it's true that he's left, one other nail in his coffin, as far as his credibility.

I think ultimately, the U.S. military forces that are involved with the hunt are going to follow every rumor, every report. They'll ultimately get him. If he is in Pakistan, that's good news because it's going to make it easier to get him, instead of having to fight our way through caves.

HARRIS: You think so, because it strikes me that if he is in Pakistan -- and there have been questions all along about just how genuine the support for this effort is in all quarters of Pakistan -- it could that he could be very well hidden in Pakistan, don't you think?

JOHNSON: No, I don't agree with that at all. Consider for example, Leon, that despite bin Laden's call for Muslims of the world, and particularly in Pakistan, to rise up, engage in jihad, attack Americans. We've only had one Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant in Pakistan -- that was in Quetta -- that was set on fire.

Otherwise, American businesses aren't being attacked. American citizens aren't being attacked. The vast majority of the Pakistani people do not support Mr. bin Laden. And there will be somebody in Pakistan, eager for a $25 million payoff, that will give him up.

HARRIS: Let's let John Fund weigh in now. John, What is your view?

JOHN FUND, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, if you're Osama bin Laden and you have lots of friends, you're going to spread disinformation. And you're going to have your friends call up reporters and tell them interesting stories. The reporters should report them, but they should take them with a grain of salt.

I agree with Larry. Look, $25 million is a pretty hefty reward. If he is in Pakistan, I suspect there are a lot of people who would want that reward. I think this is disinformation. Osama bin Laden is free to do this and we're free to continue to hunt him, and we will find him.

HARRIS: Yes, but you know, that $25 million didn't sway anybody in Afghanistan.

FUND: Well, there I think they have some misconception of what in the world $25 million is. I mean, we've already talked to people in Afghanistan who say, "$25 million? That would be enough for a hundred cows!"

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS: Pretty expensive cows, I guess they have over there.

FUND: In other words, there's no conception of what $25 million is.

HARRIS: Got you.

FUND: Pakistan, I suspect there would be more understanding.

HARRIS: Got you. Well, we'll see. We're going to hopefully get a chance to get Philip Smucker on the phone and talk with him about this report. There's just a lot of questions that come to mind, and it seems as though almost every voice we have with us today is skeptical as to whether or not what we're looking at is a legitimate break in this particular story.

We're going to take a break. And when come back, we'll talk to our panelists about the other topic regarding Osama bin Laden, this tape that is in Washington right now -- whether or not this tape is going to be released, today, maybe tomorrow. Who knows? We're still waiting on word on that.

But there are so many questions about that tape, its genuineness, and whether or not it should be released in the first place. So make sure you stay with us. Much where coming up after break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out." We're going to get right now to that videotape. That's right. The Osama Bin Laden tape.

Now many of those who have actually seen this tape say that Bin Laden erases all doubt about his role in the September 11th terrorist attacks. but for now, the Pentagon is saying that it's exercising some caution, allowing several translators to examine the tape before it's released, or whatever.

Let's go back to our panelist in Washington and in London. John Fund, I want to start with you. We were sitting here wondering about why there has been this delay in the release of this tape. What you think is going on with that?

FUND: Well, I think the government has been burned in the past by saying too much too quickly. I think they're taking their time and they want to make sure they've brought in Islamic scholars and other people to look at the tape so there is a broad general consensus that this is Osama Bin Laden, these are his words, the tape is genuine and to prepare for its use in the Arab world. Because what I think it's going to make a major talking point. In other words, we were right all along.

You were suspicious. You thought, you know, it might be Israel, it might be someone else. Well, here is Osama Bin Laden in his own words. And then -- now we can at least have a debate from the facts.

HARRIS: Larry Johnson, with -- are you concerned at all that the delay in the release of this tape could somehow backfire against the U.S.? It's got to be make people who are perhaps, you know, suspicious of the government or suspicious the U.S. and the coalition to begin with think that there might be some monkey business going on here.

JOHNSON: Well, I think the cloud of suspicion would have been there regardless of what was -- what was done. It was damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I think one of the reasons they've waited three weeks will probably have to do with the source, how they obtained this tape. I don't think it was just picked as special forces were combing through the bedroom of some Taliban or al Qaeda leader and finding, you know, finding this videotape in their collection. I think it came from someone probably on the outside and there was a need to protect that source.

But I -- I agree with John. What you're trying to do here is make sure that you can try to eliminate any suspicion whatsoever that this is a cooked tape.

The other thing -- the other thing is probably U.S. officials -- it was perhaps too good to be true. They could not believe that he would make such a tape and appear to be saying such outrageous things. And so you -- when you've got that kind of opportunity to really stick it to them, you want to make sure that you do it the right way.

HARRIS: All right. Let's go to Abdel Bari Atwan, who is standing by in London. You write for an -- and Arab newspaper. What is your view on this delay? Are you concerned at all? Or do you care at all about the delay? And can you give us an idea of exactly how all this is going to be interpreted?

ATWAN: To be honest, I do agree with you. It seems there is a monkey business. You know, we have been hearing stories about this tape before and we've never seen it, as if it is holy -- holy tapes, actually, coming from God.

Mr. Tony Blair, the prime minister of Britain, he said two weeks ago or three weeks ago in a speech in the House of Commons or the Parliament, he said that they got the tape and then that tape there is concrete evidence that Osama Bin Laden was behind the bombing of, you know, World Trade Center and the Pentagon. So actually we haven't seen it until now. Why we couldn't see the British tape? Now the American -- American administration are telling us also there is another one and they want to make sure that everything is accurate and then after that they will release it.

The three days, you know, to make sure to make sure that the tape is correct and three days to actually have accurate translation and whether this is Bin Laden or not.

Everybody, even in the -- children in the streets can tell if this is Bin Laden or this is not Bin Laden. Maybe there are editings in the tape. Maybe it -- it is not really accurate and we notice that from previous experience.

Most of the tapes released by Osama Bin Laden were extremely clear, and its language clear and it's actually -- quality wise it was perfect. So why this one in particular is not really -- is not clear and is not perfect?

FUND: Well, one reason is that those...

ATWAN: ...taken by amateur, for example.

HARRIS: OK. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

FUND: Well, one reason is that those earlier tapes were released by Osama Bin Laden himself to Al Jazeera. So of course they could be released on his timetable. This is a tape that was gotten through probably an inside source. And we have to be very careful the source checks out. And we have to be very sure that it can withstand scrutiny.

And look, because there has been a leak for a couple of days this tape is out there, no one can prevent leaks. I suspect the government is not directly behind those leaks, that it would have preferred to have done this in its own time without any of the speculation.

HARRIS: OK. Greg in Sand Point, Idaho, sent us this e-mail.

ATWAN: But is it -- is it...

HARRIS: I'm sorry. Just before you get started, I want to read this one e-mail we just got. It says, "Hey, big surprise. We were supposed to find that tape. Bin Laden is crafty. This tape is part of his plan to continue attacks."

JOHNSON: I think -- hey Leon, I think that's a -- you know, the conspiracy mentality is -- obviously this guy's an Oliver Stone fan. You know, that -- that kind of shrewdness on Bin Laden's part I think is an overreach.

HARRIS: Mr. Bari Atwan, let me get back to you in -- in London. What -- the view that you just expressed about the skepticism about this tape and -- and concerns about it perhaps being doctored.

Can you tell us how much of the Muslim world actually feels the way that you do? Will this tape -- if it is released -- not convince anyone in the Muslim world of Osama Bin Laden's culpability here, or what?

ATWAN: Well, I -- definitely it will be convincing if this tape is released before the bombing of Afghanistan, before the bombing of Tora Bora.

But now it is absolutely insignificant because judgment was passed against Osama Bin Laden, against Taliban. There is carpet bombing. There is attacks -- daily attacks. Taliban is completely finished as a -- as a government, maybe as a militia. Osama Bin Laden now is running for his life. And we -- he didn't fulfill his dreams to fight the Americans face to face as he promised his followers.

So I believe what's -- what the American administration would like to prove by this tape is Osama Bin Laden is criminal. OK. They are -- they are bombing him. Actually, they -- as I said, they are executing the punishment against him.

So in the Muslim world and the Arab world, I don't believe it will be actually received in -- in such a dramatic way as it is characterized in this part of the world or in your part of the world. I think it is a tape that will be like other tapes.

HARRIS: Let me jump in here right now. Larry Johnson, that's a very interesting point that Mr. Bari Atwan just raised about the timing of the release of this tape, since it came well after the bombing in Afghanistan actually started.

JOHNSON: Right.

HARRIS: Don't you think it would have -- do you agree that it would actually have have more of a, I guess, propagandistic value had it been done or released beforehand?

JOHNSON: No, not really. Because I think regardless -- because it comes from a U.S. government source, there is always going to be a cloud of suspicion, particularly in the minds like people -- like Mr. Bari Atwan.

I think the reality is it's not going to change a lot minds in the Arab world. But I do think it will provide a good propaganda piece when it's used a part of an overall psychological operations campaign.

Because when Bin Laden says he wants all of his followers to fight to the last man and to die in the you know, killing the infidel Americans -- and then, you know, this coward either cuts and runs, hides in a cave, sends other unwitting people to their death without having the courage to say, "look, I am asking you guys to commit suicide."

And to hide it from them that way? I mean, this guy is such a despicable piece of human slime. The earlier we can wipe him off our foot, the better.

HARRIS: Let's go right to the phones. We've got Bob from California on the line with us. Bob, you there?

BOB: Yes. Hi, this is Bob in Sacramento. I have got some big problems with the tape. If it's not authentic, my kid Chris will have vaginal fluid on the brain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

HARRIS: I'm sorry. Bob, you want to repeat that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's move on.

HARRIS: Well, never mind then. Tell you what. We've got someone here in the audience. Daphne?

DAPHNE: I'm a person who would like to see the tapes. I understand that there is concerned (sic) about where the tapes are going to come from, whether or not they're going to be doctored.

But I would actually like to see the tapes. And also, I would like to know where the tapes -- whether the tapes had the opportunity to go through, say, a world organization such as the U.N., and why not be released from the U.N., sort of like a third party or a -- a impartial commission so that it doesn't give the appearance so much to the U.S. that the U.S. is -- has some way -- or is trying justify our actions in the Middle East?

FUND: Well, I...

HARRIS: Would that make a difference? Would that make a difference? OK, John, we'll let you weigh in first.

FUND: Well, I understand that some people trust the United Nations more than the United States. I understand there are a few people who are like that.

But in this case, since it's reached the U.S. government first, if they had turned it over to the U.N. as a third party, I don't know what difference that would have made, because there would have still been the same concerns.

In my view, I am sure these will be made available to people. They can go and investigate and see if they were doctored or not. But the suspicion will always remain there. I don't think going through third parties -- especially like the United Nations, which frankly is not -- is not in the business of photo analysis would really have done much different.

HARRIS: Well, let me ask Mr. Abdel Bari Atwan in London if it would make a difference. Do you think it would make a difference to the Muslim world, if it had been released -- this tape, through the U.N.?

ATWAN: Well, yes, it will be definitely the U.N. is still respected in the Muslim world and the Arab world. But, you know, again, what -- what this tape contains, is it going to be edited? What's the source of it, the language that's used? And I wonder why -- why for example it's -- it takes three days to translate it. I know, you know, how long it will take. 50 minutes. 40 minutes. It wouldn't take more than -- more than an hour or two hours to be translated. And you can identify Osama Bin Laden in five seconds. So -- also you can identify the people around him. It is very easy. So...

JOHNSON: It's not easy.

ATWAN: If it is going to be through the United Nations. But the United Nations were kept in -- in the dark about the whole business of Afghanistan and they are really -- they have a very, very limited role.

JOHNSON: It's not easy. I mean, it's inaccurate to say that it is easy. Part of the problem is, there is no one version of Arabic. There are a lot of different interpretations.

Remember what happened with the TWA 800 plane that went down with an Egyptian pilot? You had Arab specialists arguing for weeks over what one expression meant.

And I think the kind of debate we're starting to have is an evidence of why there was some hesitation in releasing the tape because if you release it without being sure what is on there, it blows up. If you take time to find out, then you're cooking the books.

So like I said, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. It's going to come out eventually and I think it will show Bin Laden for what he is.

HARRIS: I can tell you from firsthand experience about that Egyptian air flight situation. I actually interviewed many of those experts who did differ quite -- quite radically about what that tape actually said.

JOHNSON: Absolutely.

HARRIS: All right. We are going to take a break right now. We've got much more coming up. Don't go away. We're just getting started.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out." We have been getting quite a bit of speech this afternoon on this Osama Bin Laden tape, this tape where he is seen on this videotape pretty much reveling in the damage that was created on by the planes that struck the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

We'll get back to our guests in just a moment. But we've got a ton of responses here in the audience that we want to get to real quick. Jacqueline, you said you had something -- you said you really weren't quite sure whether or not this tape should be seen, right?

JACQUELINE: I have -- I have different views. If it compromises the security of our military men and women, absolutely not.

I trust President Bush's decision. Obviously they've been looking at it. There's something in the tape -- maybe he's questioning why he should release it, why did it show up. It could be planned, there could be messages in this tape.

No, I don't think we should release it so quickly. I think we should hold back and analyze the tape.

HARRIS: Well, Larry, from what we have seen and heard so far, are you concerned at all about this issue of hidden messages inside this videotape? Because as I understand it, it was -- it's a home video.

JOHNSON: No.

HARRIS: This is not like this is some sort of studio production or anything.

JOHNSON: Right. No, I think unless it -- unless it was produced carefully in a studio, the possibility of hidden messages are very remote. I -- I do not think that your -- your audience member is correct to be concerned about possible consequences for the U.S. military in the region. But I think in this case there is -- there is no risk by releasing this tape.

HARRIS: Well, she's not alone. I've got an e-mail here from Dorothy in Iowa saying, "I think the people that know more about security should decide whether or not to show it. I for one do not care to see it -- or I don't care if I see it or not. It sounds hideous."

Well, let me ask -- let's get back to Abdel Bari Atwan, who is with us in London. And I should remind viewers who are -- anyone who's just tuning in he -- he writes for the al-Quds newspaper, a Palestinian newspaper, out of London.

If this tape is released, what is to be, do you think, the final end result here? Is this -- you said earlier this is not necessarily going to change any minds of people of whose -- whose, I guess, ideas about what happened here are so hardset.

But is it -- would it necessarily serve that -- the purposes of the U.S. or the coalition better to not release this tape at all?

ATWAN: It could actually, yes. It could -- it could justify -- we have people in the Arab world who are really behind or backing the American strikes against Bin Laden. Those people definitely suspecting that, you know, they face -- they face a campaign that Osama Bin Laden did not behind these kind of bombings, he is not responsible, he is not sophisticated or al Qaeda is not sophisticated enough to carry out such attacks.

So if this tape actually got that concrete evidence, admission -- a clear admission from Osama Bin Laden that he was behind these attacks, definitely those people would be extremely happy. They will say, "look, we told you so. He was behind it and he should be punished." So it will be like a -- like a form of self effacing formula for them, to be honest. So it could be help -- it could be helping this.

Also could -- could help the government, Arab and Muslim governments who actually contributed to the coalition against terrorism. So again, the Pakistani government, maybe Saudi government, Egyptian government, Jordanian government will say to its people, "Yes, you are skeptical. Now we've got the proof. We were right to, you know, participate in this campaign and to fight those people.

Because what was carried out by them was unbelievable and unacceptable. But, you know, I want to go back to the risk factor here, or the coded messages.

I don't believe, you know, there is -- there is any risk here -- security risk -- for the United States or any Muslim government simply because, you know, this -- this video is not released by Osama Bin Laden himself.

If it was released by Osama Bin Laden himself, here we can raise the security questions and we can raise the question of whether he used it to -- to pass code messages or not. But if it was actually a homemade video and it is not released by him, I believe the risk here is minimal.

HARRIS: John Fund in Washington, let me ask you something that occurred to me as -- as Mr. Bari Atwan was speaking. Are there consequences to be paid amongst -- in the wider the Muslim world if it is -- the Muslim world, or a big majority of it -- is seen to be apologizing still for Osama Bin Laden after a tape like this is released?

FUND: No, I don't believe anyone in the Muslim world has to take responsibility for Osama Bin Laden unless they've been directly financing, aiding or abetting him.

There are some people who have done that who I think do deserve to give us an explanation and they may have to pay the consequence. But the vast number of people in the Muslim world are of course peaceful, the vast number of people in the Muslim world, I think, deserve better governments than many of them have.

And I hope that after of this ends up, that they will understand that the world wishes Islam well, they wish -- they wish peace in the Middle East and that is incumbent upon themselves to improve their lot as well and that there is an enormous amount of goodwill, especially given all of the Muslim nations that have battled Osama Bin Laden and been of help to the coalition in this battle.

HARRIS: All right. Back to the audience. We've got some more responses here. This is Judy from Kentucky.

JUDY: Hi, how are you? I don't see that it's going to serve the public any useful purpose to see it now. We have known about this all this time. And we know Bin Laden is the head of it - or at least he wouldn't be running if he weren't.

HARRIS: But see, not everyone is all that convinced. We've got some people who may -- who think there is a possibility -- maybe even some -- that crack in the wall that there's a chance that maybe he's not.

You were talking about that earlier, David.

DAVID: I wonder why they took so long to come out -- to bring out the tape. And we still haven't found out -- or know for sure -- that Osama had something to do with it. So we shouldn't be so quick to say that he did.

And because they have the tape now and after -- I mean, like the man said it took -- it usually takes 50 minutes to edit -- I mean to interpret the tape but now it's taken three days or whatever. So you have to question the -- actions of this government and the people that are editing the tape.

HARRIS: We have a telephone call from Omar from Maryland. Are you there?

OMAR: Yes. I was -- I was listening to you guys talking about it. I just wanted to say that in fact the tape, it doesn't really matter if we view it or now because we already know he wasn't guilty.

If he wasn't guilty he wouldn't be running out and trying to hide from us right now. He would be avoiding the bombing, avoiding the bloodshed, and he'd come forward and try to prove his innocence.

However, he has just been running around. Being an American citizen, a Muslim and an Egyptian as well, I've served in this country's military and I totally disagree whether the tape is going to prove his innocence or prove him guilty because he is already guilty.

He's -- he's out there, he's fighting our troops, he's trying to kill American soldiers one way or the other. And he's already been proven guilty of committing terrorist acts before in the -- in the past. So I just think that it kind of doesn't matter if we see the tape or not. Guilty.

HARRIS: Well, let me -- let me ask you this.

FUND: Well, to paraphrase an old cliche, a thousand -- a picture is worth a thousand accusations.

I believe there are an enormous amount of people in the Muslim world who have been skeptical. If this tape comes out and it's compelling, it is Osama Bin Laden, it is his words and the translation is accepted, then I think that there will be a lot of people who will simply give up that contention and move on to something else.

And I think that would be clearing the air and that would be tremendously helpful because we are not talking about U.S. opinion so much as we're talking about opinion in the Arab world.

HARRIS: We've got one more opinion here in the audience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, actually I was about to view that point. I think on the homefront -- I don't think it will make that much of a difference. I think the vast majority of Americans believe Osama Bin Laden is behind all this. But if it might improve the global support of some of our efforts I think then that would be worthwhile.

HARRIS: Interesting. Let me see. Have we got the wide camera shot? Can we get a look at the audience? Moments ago we were asking you all how many of you would actually watch this tape.

Can we see how many of you say you would watch this tape if it was released? That's pretty much everybody in here. Interesting.

Well, we're going to wrap things up right, Mr. -- actually, Mr. -- we've got time for -- for one more question. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Actually, let's -- let's get one more response from our -- from our guest.

Well, actually Wendy. I'm sorry. I don't want to cut you off. You came all the way down here. Go for it.

WENDY: Hi, I'd just like to say that I think that our security has stepped up. I am very, very proud of our president, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell. I think we've got a phenomenal team for the time that we need this team.

I believe that the reason the tape is taking so long is they've had to scrutinize what's on there. I trust them to do that. They've been doing a good job. I'm a mom of an infantryman -- 101st Airborne -- and I trust that the decisions that they are making are best for America and my family.

HARRIS: All right, let's go -- let's get one final response from our guest in Washington. Larry, will we see this tape today, do you think?

JOHNSON: I'd like to see it today. But I think it goes back. They want to make sure that they've dotted all the Is, crossed the Ts. The last thing you want is to release something and then generate a new controversy because there appears to be something improper. I think the delay is really to make sure that they've got all their ducks lined up.

HARRIS: All right. we'll let them line those ducks up. We'll be watching to see how they all march out. Abdel Bari Atwan in London, thank you very much. Larry Johnson and John Fund in Washington, thank you very much, gentlemen. We sure do appreciate you joining us and we appreciate the insight you shared. And we'll have to see how things all play out.

That's all the time we've got for this afternoon. Thanks to our audience as well. Great responses this afternoon. That's it for today but we're back tomorrow at 3:00 p.m Eastern with more TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out." Now let's go to Judy Woodruff, who is standing by in Washington -- Judy.

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