Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Talkback Live

Is the Osama bin Laden Tape the Smoking Gun the President Promised?

Aired December 13, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, HOST: The voice of Osama bin Laden. The tape that gives a glimpse into the planning of the operation that killed more than 3,000 Americans, and the man believed to be behind it. Is this tape the smoking gun the president promised?

Hello and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out." I'm Leon Harris. By now, many of you have had a chance to see it. We're talking now about this tape of Osama bin Laden where he's sitting down and talking, even laughing about the attacks of September 11. But does this tape prove that he masterminded that attack? Does it erase all doubt about his involvement? And did the administration do the right thing by releasing it?

We'll talk about all that today. Joining us, Baria Alamuddin. She's the editor of the London-based Arab newspaper "Al-Hayat." And from Washington we've got Cliff May. He is the president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. And also, Dr. Jerrold Post, he is a professor of psychiatry and political psychology at George Washington University. And we should also add, we have learned, that he has actually interviewed al Qaeda terrorists.

Before we get to them, let's listen now to some more of this tape. This is a portion of the tape that the White House considers to be the most incriminating.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QAEDA LEADER: (SPEAKING IN ARABIC)... "(UNINTELLIGIBLE) ... we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Pretty hard to argue that you're not seeing the words coming from the man himself. Let's go now to Baria, who is standing by in London with us. Baria, first of all, your reaction. We've been talking all week about the -- in the advent of the release of this tape, about how many minds in the Muslim world this tape could possibly change. Well, now that you've seen it, what do you think?

BARIA ALAMUDDIN, EDITOR, "AL-HAYAT": Well, again, I'm more and more appalled. I actually never doubted that it was Osama bin Laden to begin with. And it was really, really sad to see him laugh. It's actually disgusting, to see the way the tape shows us his reactions to the terrorist acts that he has committed.

And what really also appalls me is the way the others have been reacting. I had heard no remorse, no sympathy. Quite the contrary. And I think that is really, really appalling. Also, I think it has left no doubt in anybody's mind that it was Osama bin Laden, not only in my mind.

HARRIS: What about in your community of friends, Baria? I'm sure you know some people, say, in the Muslim world, who were sitting on the fence going into this day. Do you think this tape is convincing enough to change their minds?

ALAMUDDIN: Yes. I tell you, I think the majority of the Arabs in the Muslim world have also condemned these terrorists acts from the very beginning, be it the people or the governments. However, I'm sure there were people who were saying, no, it's not Osama bin Laden. This is a conspiracy by the West against Islam, conspiracy by the Americans against the Arab, et cetera.

And even when this tape was talked about, some people said this is another conspiracy. It's not Osama bin Laden, it's not a genuine tape. This is not real, it's not true. I think after seeing the tape, very little people are left that can say that this is not a real, genuine tape. And I hope if there is anybody that is not convinced, will be convinced by this tape.

And I hope this will be a chance for us all to look at terrorism anywhere in the world, and say enough is enough, you know. I'm actually appalled, to be honest with you. Completely appalled.

HARRIS: Thank you. Let's go to Washington. Cliff May, was this tape what you thought it was going to be?

CLIFF MAY, FDN. FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Yes, very much. His culpability was clear. It was perhaps more chilling than I thought would be. He's sort of gleeful about the whole thing, and calculating. He talks about -- I guess he has background in construction -- knowing how many floors would be destroyed and how the structure would be destroyed. But he was too optimistic, he says, about the whole building coming down.

One thing that surprised me on the tape is not what bin Laden said, but what the Saudi sheik said. He talks about people in Saudi Arabia, in the mosques, who didn't disbelieve that bin Laden did it, but heard about it and of course, thought it was a wonderful thing, and he congratulates bin Laden for it. And that's, of course, a very disturbing thing.

You hear bin Laden say that the people in the World Trade Tower were not innocent. Whether they were Muslim or Christian or Jewish, they were not innocent. That is a justification of the worst form of terrorism, and it's chilling. And it's chilling to see people agree with him right there on the tape.

HARRIS: Dr. Post, we'll let you weigh in now. Anything on that tape, in particular, outside of what we've heard so far, jump out at you?

DR. JERROLD POST, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Well, again, it was the emotion that was displayed that I found particularly striking. The place I found most chilling was when he speaks about his own people, who didn't know until just before they were going on the plane, what they were about. Because for people going to martyrdom, they need to anoint themselves, prepare themselves spiritually beforehand. And his laugher about them not knowing -- if I were a lower-level member of al Qaeda, I would be rather shaken by that.

HARRIS: Why do you think he even had this -- allowed this to be videotaped in the first place, then?

POST: Well, it seems to me it was kind of celebratory. And we also have this remarkable analogy to having been the underdog in a soccer match and winning the match. I found that incredible casual and chilling at the same time. And it's really feeling like a gathering together of people who played in the big game, and what a grand game it was.

HARRIS: Baria, let me ask you if you're familiar with any of the other names that we heard mentioned on this tape. I'm going to ask you and Dr. Post to respond to this. But there were some other names of sheiks that were mentioned on this tape. Suniman Ulwan (ph), Sheik Al-Rayan (ph) and the Sulli Al-Shuabi (ph). Do you know anything about these people, and what their roles may be?

ALAMUDDIN: No, actually I do not know these people by name. But I would like to say about the sheik that was mentioned, Saudi Arabian sheik. In every society you have a small group of people that are fanatics, or evil, like Osama bin Laden. But, you know, mentioning names of countries like Saudi Arabia does not really take us anywhere.

I'm sure it is a very, very small minority of people in Saudi Arabia that agree with people like Osama bin Laden, or for that matter, any other place in the Arab world.

MAY: Bari, let my say that I hope with all my heart that you're right, and that it's a very tiny minority. But I think it is striking that he talked about it. And we do know there were celebrations in parts of the Arab and Muslim worlds, after the World Trade Towers. We do know there was a report in the paper today that Saudi Arabian broadcasting is going to be putting on a broadcasting of the protocols of the elders of Zion, a terrible forgery that is antisemitic, that goes back to Czarist Russia. It would be nice to see the Saudi authorities take some kinds of steps against that kind of Jew hatred and that kind of hate talk.

I think we need to all come to some agreement. And I think what you said before is exactly right: terrorism, the intentionally killing of innocent civilians for political purposes, is always wrong. It delegitimatizes the causes of those who espouse it, and it should never be tolerated anywhere in the world.

And to the extent that some have in the interest of this jihad, this holy war against infidels, Jews, Christians, Hindus and others -- even the Turks are called infidels on this tape -- we all need to come together and say this is wrong, flatly wrong. We're all going to fight this jihad mentality.

HARRIS: Well, Cliff, and, Baria, let me ask you this, since you bring that up. You do bring up the idea of the Saudi Arabia media. What about the media in the wider Arab world? Do we know whether or not this tape has been seen on Al Jazeera, or any other...

ALAMUDDIN: Yes, it has been.

HARRIS: Has it been? Do we know what the reaction is?

ALAMUDDIN: Yes, I've actually seen it on Lebanese television, on Abu Dhabi television. I've seen it on Al Jazeera. I've seen it on several televisions, and the way it was presented, it was just -- I heard actually very little commentary since it was published, late afternoon our time. You know, it's Ramadan and they have many different programs.

However, it did get a lot of coverage and it was broadcast on CNN, as I saw it, without of course, the translations on some of it. And that gave me a chance to actually hear a bit of the Arabic, which was not absolutely clear. However, I must say to you that it really doesn't serve anybody to condemn a whole nation, or you know, meaning the Arabs, or the Muslim world, just because of the action of very few individuals.

I assure you that the majority in the Arab world -- I do not know of one single government in the Arab or Muslim world that did not come outright condemn Osama bin Laden. And also the people. And about jihad -- jihad is not against innocent people. You can't go to the World Trade Center and kill innocent people from 80 different countries and call this jihad. This is not jihad. This is a criminal act.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: I'm sorry, folks. That's only jihad in a twisted mind. We know that. That has been made quite clear.

ALAMUDDIN: Exactly. So it doesn't...

HARRIS: We will get back to that in just a bit. We have to take a break right now, but when we come back, how did Osama bin Laden's words play in New York City?

Coming up, CNN correspondent Michael Okwu, who is standing by with some reaction in the city hit hardest by the attacks. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TRANSLATED)

BIN LADEN: "The brothers who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded..."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: That's -- I can't think of anything more cold-blooded than that. That's absolutely amazing. We're continuing our discussion about this tape of Osama bin Laden, nearly celebrating openly, with friends of his after the September 11 attacks, talking about the devastation.

We're talking this afternoon with Cliff May and Dr. Jerrold Post and Baria Alamuddin, who's with us in London. And we've been sitting here talking about how many people in the Arab world this tape would convince. And yet, still, it appears there are people here in the States who still need to be brought onboard.

Check this out. We got this e-mail from Jonathan in Denver, Colorado. Listen to this one, folks: "An amateur tape does not make a smoking gun. Given this late release makes me wonder about its authenticity. Being happy about the events of September 11 is simply not enough proof. Nowhere does it say, 'I planned it.' This wouldn't even hold up in court."

Cliff May, what does that make you feel like?

MAY: It makes me feel like -- well, listen, there are probably some people who still think the world is flat. He very specifically talks about knowing about this in advance, about calculating the number of casualties, about him being optimistic about there being more casualties. In fact, this exceeded his expectations. He knew when the planes would hit. When the first plane hit and someone told him about it, he said, "just wait," because he knew others were coming.

Look, it's just distressing to think that someone in Denver, Colorado could see this and not be able to believe it, but there are all sorts of people in the world, I suppose.

HARRIS: Yes, well, we're going to take a quick look of the picture there we're getting in from the World Trade Center site, what used to be there. You see there, the work is not over. You see that, folks? They've found yet another body there in the rubble. You can see that fire department, rescue official folks there carrying the body back out of the rubble, which is still smoking in some places.

It's amazing they're still able to find any other remains in that pile. And as you can tell, that site was incredibly hard hit. And the people there across the city were hit almost just as hard in their hearts. And New Yorkers saw up close the results of those hijackings.

Let's check in now with our Michael Okwu, who has been spending some time today with some people who have been watching this videotape as it was being played out today. Michael, I've been watching on the air all day this afternoon. You've got quite a wide range of reaction, and almost all of it intense.

MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, very intense. I would say that's an understatement. People here at Nino's restaurant have very strong feelings, obviously, about what happened on September 11. And they have just as strong feelings about Osama bin Laden.

We want to show you some of the pictures when that tape was being played earlier today on CNN. People were not only shocked, they were angry. And in fact, there's a great number of police officers who were watching this tape, and then literally had to leave and continue with their food. They said -- so many of them said that they were so disgusted they didn't want to see any more of Osama getting any air time.

Now, Nino's restaurant, since September 11, has not received any paying customers. Essentially, it has been open to the public, specifically open to rescue workers, many of them firefighters and New York City police officers. Since September 11, there have been more than 400,000 meals served here to firefighters and police officers and other people involved in what was once a rescue effort, and of course is now a recovery effort.

I'm now talking to Heidi Warner, who works here at Nino's. She's been here for a little while and she was literally sitting right beside me when the tape was playing. And I have to say, Heidi, you were very emotional at the time.

HEIDI WARNER, NINO'S: I was. I was. I think there are a few things that made it really tough to watch. One was being amongst all these people who worked so hard, trying to help recovery, and trying to help the moral of the people here, the firefighters that come, the rescue workers. And everyone spending so much time and effort and energy to that. And then, to watch the faces of the terrorists on the television and see how much joy they got out of -- out of the accident -- the events that occurred on September 11. It was horrifying. It was really difficult to watch.

OKWU: Obviously, you have talked, you've spent so much more time with the people who come here every single day, for breakfast, or for lunch, or for dinner. It's a 24-hour operation here at Nino's. How is, you think, that many of those people felt when they watched the Osama bin Laden tape, given that so many of them have spent, considerable period of time, on Ground Zero?

WARNER: I think it was tough. It was really tough to watch. I think that it was hard for them. I saw a few people that didn't even want to watch it. You know, because they have to go back to Ground Zero after they finish their meal. And it was really tough, and they wanted to focus on recovery and helping, as opposed to -- they get really angry when they're watching this. It might be really tough to go back and really focus.

OKWU: Heidi, thanks so much. We want to leave you with a picture of the volunteers here at Nino's, serving food, which is what they do 24 hours a day. A very poignant moment here in lower Manhattan, and we expect that that may continue throughout the course of the night -- Leon.

HARRIS: All right, thanks so much. Michael Okwu up there in New York, in that emotion-filled room. Thank you very much.

We're going to take a break and be back in just a moment. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIN LADEN: "He did not know about the operation. Not everybody knew... ((UNINTELLIGIBLE) Mohamed ((Atta)) from the Egyptian family ((meaning the Al Qaeda Egyptian group), was in charge of the group.

SHAYKH: A plane crashing into a tall building was out of anyone's imagination. This was a good job. He was one of the pious men in the organization. He became a martyr. Allah bless his soul."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Welcome back. We continue our discussion about the release of the Osama bin Laden "celebration tape," if you will. During break, I was chatting with the audience and I happened to be sharing with them how I felt every time I heard him mention, or talk about how many people died, or the devastation, and the fact that other people were going to be going to their deaths without knowing about it. And someone, either bin Laden or someone else inside that room on that tape would say something like, "Allah be praised," or "praise God," as if that was something to celebrate.

And Glenn in the audience here had a reaction that kind of made sense to me.

GLENN: I was just saying that it isn't a question of Islamic fundamentalism or bin Laden, it's anyone who kills and thinks they have the right to murder someone that they don't agree with, in the name of God. The example I came up with was the people who were bombing abortion clinics in the United States and saying they were doing God's work.

I have a real problem in that arena. And we have to be careful of how we talk, and how we talk about people, especially people who that they're in the midst of a war.

HARRIS: Yes, thanks, Glenn. That helps us understand exactly what we're dealing with, here.

Joan from Wyoming, are you still there on the phone?

JOAN: Yes, I am.

HARRIS: Hi, thanks for calling. What's your thought this afternoon?

JOAN: Well, I have a comment first, and then a question. This makes me think of the show, the dumbest criminal videos. The question is, it seems to me that there are a lot of people over there that are putting everything on video. Why would they do that?

HARRIS: Let's see. Dr. Post, you want to try that one out?

POST: Well, this probably was not intended for external dissemination, like the tapes that came out just after the bombing began. I think this was really the recording of a kind of celebratory reminiscence of this great victory. In fact, it does show bin Laden in such an odious light, that it really would be quite counterproductive for others outside the mainstream to -- others within the mainstream, to see.

Having said that, the true believers do see this as great triumph, and they have bought into the extremity of his rhetoric, that these are not innocent victims in the World Trade Center, all Americans should be killed, as God's order. And it's really a remarkably blithe comment.

HARRIS: In light of that, I want to go to Baria Alamuddin in London, and ask her for her response as a Muslim. When you hear these blithe responses, as Dr. Post put it, to this incredibly -- conversation about this devastation that happened in New York and in Washington, how does it make you feel, as a Muslim, to hear someone say, "Allah Akbar" when they see or talk about something about 3,000 people dying at once?

ALAMUDDIN: Very, very angry. Extremely angry. I actually cannot think of anybody causing Islam more damage than Osama bin Laden. It's appalling. I cannot begin to express to you the anger I feel. And about the videotape, I am not sure that Osama bin Laden was aware that this tape was being done. I'm not saying he's not happy, or not, but it seems to me as if because the voice is very, very far, I'm not -- unless the amateur who did it is -- is really, really an amateur in the sense they did not know what they are doing.

It was very difficult for me to be able to understand the Arabic. It was very faint at times. It's only when he was reciting the poetry that I was able to understand every single word that he was saying .

HARRIS: Let me ask you something...

ALAMUDDIN: And...

HARRIS: I want to jump in here for just a second...

ALAMUDDIN: As a Muslim -- yes?

HARRIS: I'm sorry. I just want to jump in for a quick second...

ALAMUDDIN: Go ahead.

HARRIS: ...because we don't really have lot of time and I want to get your response to this one thing, because a moment ago you said that this has caused -- that this will cause lot of damage to Islam because of this -- this performance on tape.

ALAMUDDIN: It has.

HARRIS: Yeah. There is something that was said on this tape I want you to -- I want you to listen to. I -- and this is the transcript here. "I heard some" -- this is Osama Bin Laden talking, saying, "I heard someone on Islamic radio who owns a school in America say we don't have time to keep up with the demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn about Islam."

He's saying that this event is something that makes people want to join, and has made more people want to join Islam. Has there been any evidence of that?

ALAMUDDIN: No, absolutely not. I think, you know, probably people have to ask -- they have questions in their minds, question about what Islam is all about, maybe.

But this is the perfect kind of questioning. The line of questioning must be wrong. This is not the way you want to teach people about your region if you love and respect your religion. This is the wrong way, isn't it?

HARRIS: OK. Cliff, is that you? Go ahead.

MAY: Couple of real quick points. One, look, there are a lot of people around the world who hate the United States. We have to understand that. And they are going to cheer, Muslim or not, when they see somebody bring the United States down low.

The other important point to make, and an important distinction. Islam is a faith that is one of the world's great faiths. Islam isn't -- which is what Bin Laden represents -- is an ideology, a form of fascism.

ALAMUDDIN: Absolutely.

MAY: And this form of fascism has done damage to Christians, Jews and to Muslims. For example, in my foundation we have a senior fellow who is from Algeria. He points out that there have been 120,000 Algerians -- Muslims, moderate Muslims -- who have been slaughtered as a result of this brand of Islamism, this ideology, which exists in many countries around the world and which must be defeated.

And one hopes that having seen this tape people all over the world -- not least in the Islamic world -- will separate themselves completely from Islamism, from Islamic fascism, and from terrorism as a way to win the war. That's called jihadism, the idea that you are go to bring down the infidel and build an empire on his ashes.

HARRIS: Well, only time will tell. Time will tell. Dr. Post and Baria Alamuddin in London, we thank you for joining us today. We're going to have to let you go right now. But we sure do appreciate you joining us and offering your insights. And we sure hope it's opened some minds today.

Cliff May, you are go to stay with us. And folks at home watching, we hope you do too. We'll be right back after break.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

HARRIS: What do Arab-Americans think of the Bin Laden tapes? Ahead, reaction from one of the nation's largest Arab communities. We'll hear from Dearborn, Michigan, when TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out" returns.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out". I'm Leon Harris and we have been speaking out quite a bit about this tape that's been released of Osama Bin Laden sitting down with some friends and chatting and laughing about what happened on September 11.

Joining our discussion now is Hussein Ibish. He is the communications director for the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee; and also CNN Terrorism Analyst Peter Bergen. Thank you, gentlemen, for coming in and joining our conversation. We sure do appreciate it.

And I want to first of all begin with you, Peter. After having seen this tape, there has been so much discussion -- discussion about whether or not it's going to be perceived as authentic, or whatever.

And in fact we have an e-mail from Murrow (ph) in New York, who is saying, "Why should I believe this tape? Look who it's being released by. The Pentagon. Not exactly on my list of most-trusted organizations." And "Being a special effects artist, my gut feeling says that something ain't right with this picture."

You've seen this picture. What do you think, Peter?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it seems authentic to me. I mean, A), the rhetoric that Bin Laden employs; B) it's him. I mean, I -- I've looked at all the tapes that he's been on. I've met him. It's his voice. It's -- you know, it's authentic.

You know, and simple explanations are the best ones. There will always be conspiracy theories about these kinds of things. But they're just conspiracy theories. This was obviously a kind of casual moment. I have seen tapes similar to this during the Afghan war against the Soviet Union, Bin Laden sort of sitting around kibbitzing with his friends. It has all of the hallmarks of authenticity to me. HARRIS: Hussein, let me ask you a question that we asked just moments ago to Baria Alamuddin. First of all, let me ask you your reaction to having seen this tape?

HUSSEIN IBISH, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, AMERICAN ANTI- DISCRIMINATION COMMITTEE: Well, I'm appalled. I think everyone is appalled. It's -- it's absolutely disgraceful. But it's exactly what you would expect from the people who planned and executed the September 11 attacks.

And I agree that I think this should be the end of whatever lingering debate that there is about whether he is guilty or not. I think it's been clear, you know, all honest people how guilty he has been for a long time. This is the end of that debate.

My other reaction, though, is that I think that as Americans we ought to focus our attention on the specific individuals and the -- and their politics who were responsible for September 11.

There is lot of discourse out there that this conflict should be expanded immediately to include all kinds of organizations and states that were not involved in September 11 and that have very different kind of politics. I'm thinking of Iraq and the Palestinians and others. And that's -- that is a disastrous idea. Just look at this video today. And it tell you how serious, you know, the problem with al Qaeda really is.

MAY: But we have to understand that al Qaeda is not just al Qaeda. This is an ideology that exists in many countries around the world.

In the caves right now with Osama Bin Laden is that man that responsible for the assassination of Anwar Sadat in 1982. Egyptian -- Egyptian Islamic Jihad joined with al Qaeda.

And those who practice terrorism, those who believe that the infidel must be destroyed, whether they are in the Palestinian territories or in Iraq or in Iran, all these people need to reform themselves or they are going to be reformed by the Western powers. We do not accept this jihad against us.

IBISH: That -- that is exactly the kind of blurring of boundaries and confusion that's so dangerous. I mean, I agree that the Egyptian Islamic Jihad has merged with al Qaeda. We know that. Zawahiri is there. We know that. But we also know that the Iraqi government has completely different policies and is no way implicated in 9/11.

MAY: Well, not...

IBISH: Yes...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: Excuse me, gentlemen. Gentlemen, let me jump -- let me jump in here. IBISH: That is a conspiracy theory of the first order. It's the intellectual equivalent of people who say Bin Laden did not commit the crime.

HARRIS: Well, let me jump in here if I may for a second, gentlemen, because Hussein, the other thing I would like to bounce off of you that we did with Baria moments ago is if we take Osama Bin Laden at his words that he has in this videotape, we are not talking about a problem just outside the confines of the borders of the U.S.

He says at least -- and this is from the transcript again. "I heard someone in Islamic radio who owns a school in America say we don't have time to keep up with the demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn about Islam. This event made people think about true Islam."

Now, have you seen any evidence at all that there has been a rush to any -- his brand of Islam or any brand of Islam in the wake of this attack?

IBISH: No. No. What it is -- what he is willfully misinterpreting is the explosion of interest in Islam, in the Middle East and all of these issues in the United States and in the West.

And I think, you know, it's clear that Americans have a lot of questions. They should. That they want to know what Islam really is. Is this authentic Islam? Is this -- of course, as it is -- a perversion?

You know, we -- go into any bookstore and you can see, you know, the books on Islam and the Middle East all over the place and how well they are selling. And that's what he's willfully misinterpreting.

HARRIS: All right. We're going to...

may: He is right about that. Let me point -- one quick...

HARRIS: Quickly, if you can. Quickly.

MAY: On the tapes, we hear Osama Bin Laden talk about the various families in Egypt and other countries. This clearly means they are al Qaeda affiliates in these countries. And that's what we have to worry about, especially since we know that the ringleader of September 11 met with Iraqi officials, for example, in Prague -- intelligence officials. We have to look at every country that harbors terrorists or harbors...

(CROSSTALK)

IBISH: That is exactly -- that is exactly the kind of sloppy rhetoric which just says, "oh, you know, everyone..."

MAY: You can characterize it as insultingly as you like...

IBISH: Hold on. Listen to me.

MAY: But you are not -- you're not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) anyway.

IBISH: That is exactly the kind of conspiratorial, paranoid rhetoric that we -- that we laugh -- listen to me -- that we laugh at when...

HARRIS: Gentlemen.

IBISH: ...when people in the Arab world say, "oh, this is the work of Mossad" or "Oh, this isn't the work of Bin Laden." I think -- you have to look at things at their face value.

MAY: Did Mohamed Atta meet in Prague with Iraqi agents?

IBISH: That absolutely -- if it's true it proves absolutely nothing.

MAY: Yes or no?

IBISH: If true, it proves absolutely nothing.

MAY: How do you know?

HARRIS: All right. Gentlemen, on that -- on that note, then, we will break. Gentlemen. Gentlemen.

IBISH: I mean, this is just idiotic.

HARRIS: Gentlemen! Just a minute please. At this point I think it's a good idea that we break away from this to let -- let tempers cool for just a second so we can have a clear debate that everyone can listen to and interpret.

Let's go now to someplace else where people are standing by listening as well: Dearborn, Michigan. As -- as many may know, that is home to one of the nation's largest Arab communities, and our Jeff Flock is there. He's been standing around there getting some reactions from a lot of people. Jeff, let's go to him now. Jeff, what have you been hearing there in -- in regards to reactions to this Bin Laden tape?

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, interesting reactions, Leon. This is the largest Arab community outside of the Middle East. And I want to get first reactions. Some people trying to give Osama Bin Laden the benefit of the doubt.

You listened to that tape very carefully, I know. Is there any doubt now in your mind?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No there isn't. It's very clear from the translations and what I heard that he did admit to what -- what happened and -- but well, I'm just going to leave it at that. It looks very clear from the translation.

FLOCK: Was it a good idea to release this tape? Was it any help or any -- anything served here by the release? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that I needed to hear the tape. From the beginning the president has been telling the nation that they have the proof and I think this now proves by the words that he used.

FLOCK: Where do we go from here? Now that this tape has been released, what -- what happens? Does it change anything?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that the tape was important to be released. I viewed the tape and I felt that for those that did have any doubts it will certainly convince them. The words that he used, that he had knowledge in advance, using his expertise in construction in his anticipation of the damage definitely incriminates him.

FLOCK: Listening to the -- to the sort of behind the scenes anti-American sentiment. How -- how does it sit with you? It makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I think that really the tape somehow it like added more convincing to a lot of people. But from the beginning we have -- we are somehow in the Arabic community here we have some -- a good idea that it -- that it is those people that are behind this kind of act. And...

FLOCK: Not the majority?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not the majority. But really most of them they are convinced somehow that they are -- the group is behind that. And you know all of the names and everything is behind that.

FLOCK: I appreciate your comments. Folks in metro Detroit. The latest here. The largest Arab-American community and concentration of Arabs outside the Middle East. Back to you, Leon.

HARRIS: Thanks, Jeff. We sure appreciate it. And again, thanks -- thank your audience there. We sure do appreciate their insights this afternoon.

Peter Bergen standing by in Washington, our analyst. I want to go back to you for one final look at this tape, if we can get a positive from this at all.

There had been some concerns going into it about whether or not there may have been some sort of a -- of an intelligence value to this videotape that we've seen here. Now that you've seen it, is there anything else that we glean from watching this tape that we've learned about al Qaeda?

BERGEN: Well, adding to our previous conversation, one of the things that's striking me is what is not on the tape. It's not a discussion of the Iraqi colleagues who helped us with this bombing or our Iranian colleagues.

There was some notion that Iraq or Iran might be involved. I always believed that to be untrue. I think this tape helps that theory. It shows that it was al Qaeda by itself. If the United States government goes after Iraq it's for a completely separate issue, which a weapons inspections issue. Nothing to do with September 11.

There was this meeting with Mohamed Atta and the Iraqi intelligence agent. But you and I have meetings with all sorts of people we don't necessarily do business with. I think it's apples and oranges.

If we -- if the United States goes after Iraq it is on the issue weapons of mass destruction. It sure ain't anything to do with September 11.

MAY: Are you prepared to say, though, that on the issue of -- of sponsoring terrorism and states that sponsor terrorism, Iraq is one that the Bush administration is going to look very hard at, along with Iran, along with Syria, along with Somalia and along with a number of other nations.

IBISH: Well, let me say -- let me say something about that.

MAY: I want to ask that of Peter.

HARRIS: You may quickly. Quickly, now.

BERGEN: Well, basically Iraq has had no history of going to after the United States except in the assassination attempt on president George Bush senior in 1993. That's the only evidence of an anti-American attack.

MAY: That's sponsored terrorism.

IBISH: No. Read the State Department terrorism report. The only thing Iraq has been accused of in those reports in the last eight years is supporting an Iranian opposition group which has shot Iranian senior military officials. That is not the kind of thing that we think about when we talk about international terrorism. Sorry. I know you would like it to be the case but you're just making it up.

HARRIS: I'd like -- I think the case we'd like right now is we'd like to be talking more about this Osama Bin Laden tape.

IBISH: That's a good idea.

HARRIS: We're going to -- we're going to take a break right. When we come back, we'll try it again. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out". We are going to hit the restart button and pick up our conversation with Hussein Ibish and Peter Bergen and Cliff May.

And we're talking about this Osama Bin Laden tape that was released today and -- and the wider implications from it. And let's start with you, Mr. Ibish. I want to know what is your thought about how widely this tape is going to be seen or distributed in -- in, say, the American Muslim community and the worldwide Muslim community .

IBISH: I -- I think most people that watch television are going to see parts or all of this. And I think that's a very good thing, because I think it's damning. I think it exposes Bin Laden and his politics and his ideology for the -- the crude and violent assault on decency and value and Islam that it is. And I think that it will do great harm to him and his moment and I welcome that enthusiastically.

HARRIS: All right. We have Jeff from Nova Scotia with us on the phone. Jeff, are you there?

Jeff: How are you doing?

HARRIS: Fine. Great to have you with us. What's your thought?

JEFF: My thought is basically it is the smoking gun that everyone is talking about. But it seems to me that these men going on a martyrdom mission would have known that they were going to die and a lot of the comments I've heard today say that they didn't know beforehand. You know, not to excuse such a horrible act but, you know, it makes me wonder.

HARRIS: Doesn't it -- doesn't it make you think this guy has got to be an absolute jerk if he can -- if he run an operation like that and not tell people that they were going to go die?

BERGEN: Leon, I'd like to -- to interrupt here for a second. If you read -- if you read the transcript, he actually makes it clear that everybody knew they were going on a martyrdom operation.

Certain U.S. officials were saying wasn't clear to everybody. But the transcript of the tape released by the White House that everybody knew it was a martyrdom operation.

What wasn't clear is when they actually would die, which I think was sort of an interesting development. I mean, I don't think it's going to provoke a lot of al Qaeda recruits, necessarily. But I think that everybody understood that they were going to die in some operations at some time against an American target.

HARRIS: Yeah, that's clear. Do you know what? Something else jumped out at me too as well, Peter, and this is something I want you to respond to. Something else that Osama Bin Laden says here.

When he is talking about a game, he's talking to Abu al-Hassan Amajri (ph) about a -- a soccer game that appeared on Al Jazeera TV. I think you may know what I'm about to get to.

And here's -- I'm quoting here from Osama Bin Laden himself. He said, "He told me a year ago. I saw in a dream we were playing a soccer game against the Americans, and when our team showed up on the field they were all pilots."

Now, this is just one of like, I don't know, maybe 10 or 15 different dreams that were recorded or talked about or discussed in this conversation. What do we know about that? What -- is there something going on with that we don't -- that we should know about?

BERGEN: Well, I don't really know. But I know that Bin Laden said stop telling people about your dreams because it's going to give away the operation, or words to that effect.

I think that, you know, clearly Bin Laden understand that this was happening. He wanted people to not talk about these dreams because it might actually give away the operation.

MAY: One thing, Leon, that I've heard speculated on that is that the dreams were meant to give this a theological overlay, as if this had a higher authority's permission. Don't forget, Bin Laden talks about himself being the instrument to fight the infidel. And the sheikh says to him, "You will torture them. Allah will torture them using your hands."

This is meant to put it in that context. Which I agree with Hussein is a terrible defamation of genuine Islam. And -- and I'm glad to hear Hussein totally disavows it and I hope (UNINTELLIGIBLE) disavows it wherever this ideology has taken root.

HARRIS: Hussein Ibish, let me ask you about the -- the actual translation itself. You know, a lot of the concern going into the release of this tape was whether or not it could be clearly interpreted, what was said by these people and -- I don't -- I'm not sure how fluent you happen to be in Arabic or whatever. But have you talked to anyone who's had any problem at all with the translation in general?

IBISH: Well, I haven't heard anyone complain about it specifically. I -- I'm sure that there will be cranks who want to take issue. And in fact, there may be. I mean, there's always questions with translation.

I think, you know, much of it is so inaudible in the -- in the normal broadcast that it's -- it's kind of hard to tell. Whatever I heard sounded OK to me. I don't doubt, though, the translation. I don't doubt the transcript.

It rings true to me. It sounds like what people with that politics, that background and the authors of this dreadful act would say. And so I don't have any questions about it.

It is going to be the last refuge of the skeptics, but I think those people are in a kind of neurotic denial anyway. It's very clear what happened, who did it and why, and it's also very clear who didn't -- as we have managed to ascertain today.

HARRIS: All right. One final question for you, Peter Bergen. Again, from an intelligence perspective here. Did we learn anything else about these others sheikhs whose names are also mentioned on this -- on this videotape?

BERGEN: Well, I don't -- I mean, we were -- we were familiar with the spokesman, Abu Rait (ph) who shows up on the videotape. That's all that we know. The other people are unidentified. But from an intelligence perspective I think something interesting about -- we'd always talked about how Bin Laden's group was sort of compartmentalized. And this tape really shows it.

He says on the tape, you know, that the fliers didn't know the muscle, as it were, on the planes. I thought it was interesting from the horse's mouth this is the way they operate. His own spokesman was unaware of the fact this was going to take place.

HARRIS: It sounds like some of the speculation that we'd heard from experts going in may actually have been proven true by what we heard on this tape. Gentlemen, we are out of time. We want to thank you all for coming in.

IBISH: Thank you so much.

HARRIS: Cliff May, Peter Bergen and Hussein Ibish. Thank you very much. Good luck to all three of you.

MAY: Thank you.

BERGEN: It's been a real pleasure.

HARRIS: Talk with you down the road. All right. That's it for us today. Join us again tomorrow, 3:00 p.m Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE.

And make sure you stay tuned for a special report coming up on the Bin Laden tape. That happens tonight 7:00 p.m. Eastern. That'll be hosted by Wolf Blitzer. That's all for now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com