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American Morning

Richard Butler on Where is Osama bin Laden?

Aired December 18, 2001 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: So the question this morning is where is Osama bin Laden? Just days ago, we heard reports the U.S. had overheard his voice over a two-way radio giving orders to the troops, but now, as U.S. special forces are in the dangerous process of going cave to cave, just where could he be? Could he be slipping away? Is he in Pakistan?

For his perspective, we turn to Richard Butler, former U.N. chief weapons inspector, now of the Council on Foreign Relations and our ambassador in residence.

How are you this morning?

RICHARD BUTLER, FORMER U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I'm fine. How are you?

ZAHN: I'm good. Lots of ground to cover.

BUTLER: But I'm mystified.

ZAHN: You are mystified...

BUTLER: Yes, about where is this guy?

ZAHN: ... that we can't find him?

BUTLER: Four days have passed. He was sighted on Saturday. We heard him speaking on his walkie-talkie or radio. Now it's Tuesday.

ZAHN: But we're not even sure that was him. That could have been a tape-recorded message.

BUTLER: Maybe, but people felt pretty convinced that he was there in the Tora Bora mountains. You know the fighting was at a certain place. It's been pushed back about six miles. We've got these caves, lots of ammunition, no Osama bin Laden. Where is he? Admiral Stufflebeam, who deals with these things at the Pentagon, said, and I think he's right, it's like trying to find a flea on a dog.

ZAHN: Yes, that's pretty...

BUTLER: That's not great. That's not great.

ZAHN: Yes, the chances of success aren't too good there. But my question is, because the public clearly...

BUTLER: Right.

ZAHN: ... is supporting this mission right now,...

BUTLER: Absolutely.

ZAHN: ... the administration is heartened by that, but will that continue if Osama bin Laden is not found? You know there's a report this morning he's already in Pakistan, he's shaved his beard, he's cut his hair.

BUTLER: Yes, well, we have to take that seriously, but the numbers are extraordinary, fantastic support in this country for the war on terrorism. Slightly lower number saying that it is essential that we get Osama bin Laden. I think we should be careful about that. I think the administration should be careful about that.

Look, this network is global. You saw Senator Boxer show that map -- it's global. Sixty or so al Qaeda cells around the word, some of them act autonomously, that is whether Osama bin Laden's alive or not they still might do their terror.

So I think be important for the administration to say to the people, sure we want this criminal, as the president himself has said bring justice to him or him to justice, fine. But remember, Paula, everyone should remember, this is a bigger picture than one man and we've got to continue on to get rid of al Qaeda, get terrorism out of our life.

ZAHN: But the fact remains this next phase of the mission is incredibly dangerous...

BUTLER: You bet.

ZAHN: ... for the United States and its allies.

BUTLER: You bet.

ZAHN: We know that many al Qaeda leaders have basically either bought their freedom...

BUTLER: Right.

ZAHN: ... or somehow negotiated the surrender of individual towns for their freedom.

BUTLER: Yes. Our forces are going to enter a very dangerous phase right now. Look at the sorry business that happened at Kandahar airport, three Marines got injured, one of them lost his foot, and that was in a relatively safe place. The -- out in the field, that country has more mines in it than any country on the face of this earth. A recent estimate said, and I believe it, that it could take up to -- you ready for this -- 100 years to get rid of all the mines in Afghanistan.

ZAHN: Wow.

BUTLER: And the Taliban, as you've just said, are disappearing out into the woods and into society. Are they going to lay down their arms? You know it's serious. Also, the international peacekeeping force that needs to be put together hopefully by next Saturday when the new interim government takes over is still not together.

ZAHN: Yes, there's no consensus on how it's going to work.

BUTLER: No, they're still arguing about how many, and above all, what the rules of engagement would be. Are they able to fight back? What kind of weapons will they carry? Some of the Afghan personalities are very uncomfortable about it being a strong force. On the other hand, how could you expect that force to go there and do a good job if it couldn't protect itself and be able to shoot back? These are serious issues.

ZAHN: Before we let you get away, I want to move on to what I think is one of the more bizarre developments of the morning and that is Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein calling on Arab leaders to come to Mecca to discuss the plight of the Palestinians.

BUTLER: Paula,...

ZAHN: Saddam Hussein cares deeply about the Palestinians as Osama does, right? Right, Richard?

BUTLER: Believe that one and you believe anything.

ZAHN: What is this all about?

BUTLER: He doesn't care about that and nor does Osama bin Laden. It's posturing. He's talking about a pan-Arab (ph) movement against the Israelis. I ask you these questions, would Saddam himself go to Mecca? I strongly doubt it given the fact that he attacked Saudi Arabia in the past, given the fact that he's a coward and he never leaves the country for his own security.

ZAHN: And he doesn't want these Islamic fundamentalists in his country.

BUTLER: Exactly. And do they really care?

ZAHN: So there is a view that many of these Arab leaders actually welcome this conflict to continue between the Israelis and Palestinians because it keeps the heat off them.

BUTLER: I'm glad you...

ZAHN: Do you buy that?

BUTLER: I'm glad you raised it. It's a very serious -- it's a shadowy issue, but it's a very serious issue. The theory says this, they all have fundamentalists in their own country that could threaten their government and it's better for them if the attention of those fundos (ph) can be directed at the Israel-Palestine problem rather than at the conditions of their life in their own country. I think that theory has some merit, Paula. It's sad, but I think it's true.

And you know, these Arab leaders have got to be more responsible than that. They talk to us about the war on terrorism and supporting our objectives and so on, but they don't do that with their own street. They play the Palestinian issue for political advantage at home. That's not responsible and that's one of the things -- one of the gaps we have to see close.

But Saddam in Mecca and all of that, give me a break.

ZAHN: Saddam goes to Mecca, Richard Butler goes to Mecca, and you meet him there, right?

BUTLER: Right.

ZAHN: All right. Thanks for your time this morning. See you same time,...

BUTLER: Good to see you.

ZAHN: ... same place tomorrow morning.

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