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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Has Osama bin Laden Escaped to Pakistan? Can U.S. Forces Go After Him There?

Aired December 19, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: An exclusive look at what may be Osama bin Laden's former home and hideout. But where is he now?

An exclusive interview with American Taliban fighter, John Walker.

Hundreds of al Qaeda fighters have been captured inside Pakistan. Some make a bloody escape attempt.

Has bin Laden also made it into Pakistan? Can U.S. forces go after him there? We'll go live to Tora Bora. And I'll speak live with Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, Maleeha Lodhi, Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Joe Biden, and former deputy national security adviser James Steinberg, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

The White House says President Bush and his top advisers could decide the fate of the American Taliban fighter, John Walker, as early as this week.

Later here in the CNN WAR ROOM, we will have an excerpt from an exclusive interview that Walker has granted CNN. But first, the search for Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda fighters.

And we begin with that -- an exclusive look at a hideout built by bin Laden that was tucked away in a complex of caves. And hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are captured after they crossed the Afghan border into Pakistan.

Some of those prisoners were involved in a deadly clash with security forces. With the latest on what's going on in Afghanistan and along the border, CNN's Nic Roberston. He joins us live from Tora Bora -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the big fear of many here who are hunting Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda in the mountains behind me in the last few days is that many would escape across the border into Pakistan.

And that seems to have been borne out by what happened a little earlier. 155 -- or more -- al Qaeda members have been arrested so far by Pakistani authorities.

Some of those were being transported on a convoy to another prison facility further inside Pakistan when on one bus some al Qaeda members grabbed guns from Pakistani guards. A gun battle ensued. The bus crashed into a ravine. 13 people were killed: seven al Qaeda members and six Pakistani guards. But in the melee 21 al Qaeda members did manage to escape that convoy and are still believed to be on the loose inside Pakistan.

Now, Donald Rumsfeld, secretary of state -- secretary of defense, rather -- says that U.S. special forces are still searching the mountains here looking for al Qaeda members.

And indeed, last night, we could hear helicopters flying into this area. They didn't have their lights on. We couldn't see them. But they were flying very close to where we are, very low to the ground.

Also, U.S. warplanes have been circling in the skies still. B- 52s patrolling in the air. They circle into the region, back out again, come in again. One we even saw come in five times on one mission.

And also, in the mountains the mood among the Eastern Alliance fighters is beginning to change. Less searching now and more scavenging now for the spoils of war, if you will.

We saw them going into a cave facility on the mountainside here and taking out ammunition to remove it for their own use somewhere else. Wolf.

BLITZER: What about the border, Nic, between Afghanistan and Pakistan? We have heard that it's supposedly sealed by now, but from what you're hearing and seeing, has it been sealed off?

ROBERTSON: It's a very difficult border to seal for a force on either side. Number one, is from the northern side for the Eastern Alliance fighters to do their job fully and to stop al Qaeda members repenetrating Afghanistan, or put a -- put a net around them that will enclose them on the Pakistani border.

Very difficult, because at border itself the mountains are very, very high. They are now covered in -- they are now covered in snow.

In fact, some of those al Qaeda members who escaped into Pakistan are believed to have symptoms of frostbite. So it's very, very difficult on this side to keep a firm grip on the border area, and on the Pakistani side equally so.

There are deep ravines. The mountains are high. They are very, very steep. And also it is densely forested here. So for any force trying to keep patrol on that border, it is a very, very difficult task and it would seem beyond the scope of the Eastern Alliance or the Pakistani army without many, many, many more troops at their disposal to really seal it completely sealed shut. Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson in Tora Bora. Thank you very much.

And this programming note: Nic will have much more at the top of the hour, and later at 11:00 p.m. Eastern in his special reports, "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN."

Meanwhile, no decision on the fate of the American Taliban fighter John Walker. He's still being held aboard the USS Peleliu in the Arabian Sea.

CNN has Walker's only on-camera interview. It was done this month after he was taken into custody after a prison uprising at Mazar-e Sharif. Here, Walker talks about the fighting that ended that uprising.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JOHN WALKER, AMERICAN TALIBAN FIGHTER: They had bombed us with airplanes. They had shot missiles. They had thrown grenades. They had shot us with all types of guns. They had poured gas on us and burned us.

They had done everything you can imagine. So the last thing was they poured water into the basement. They wanted to fill it up with water.

When they filled it -- most of us were injured at that point anyway. After the previous -- the first day, maybe about half of us -- or more than half of us were injured.

So the last day, when they poured the water into the basement, I think the vast majority of us (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- so that morning, we were standing in the water -- freezing water in the basement for maybe 20 hours.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BLITZER: And you can watch the entire exclusive interview with John Walker on a special edition of "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN." That's at 8:30 p.m. Eastern, 5:30 Pacific. And you can hear from Robert Pelton, the journalist who interviewed Walker, on "NEWSNIGHT" with Aaron Brown. That's at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 Pacific.

Osama bin Laden and his followers may want to rethink the idea of looking for safe haven in Pakistan. More now from our national security correspondent David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tensions are high along the Pakistani border after a group of about a hundred mostly Arab al Qaeda fighters, arrested trying to leave Afghanistan, staged a revolt and a shootout with Pakistani security forces.

MAJOR GENERAL RASHID OURESHI, PAKISTANI ARMY SPOKESMAN: One civilian and five security personnel died. And six to seven of these non-Afghan fighters were also killed.

ENSOR: At the Chaman border crossing, guards man their heavy guns and incoming vehicles are carefully checked as seven battalions -- thousands of additional Pakistani troops -- aided by intelligence officers on the ground and U.S. aircraft overhead, searching for additional al Qaeda stragglers, who might try to slip into Pakistan after their defeat in nearby Tora Bora.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The Pakistani army is -- is doing a good job along the border of Afghanistan. They have captured a very large number -- hundreds.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We could not have asked for better support from the Pakistan -- Pakistani government than we are receiving.

ENSOR: Top of the most wanted list, of course, is Osama bin Laden. Pakistan's long border with Afghanistan could be crossed by the terrorist leader, analysts say, but he would not likely be safe there for long.

RICK INDERFURTH, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: First of all, he's six feet, five inches tall. It's going to be very difficult for him to blend in.

He's also a recognizable figure even if he shaves off his beard. So I think that at some point if he has gone over to Pakistan, somebody will spot him and turn him in.

AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR, "TALIBAN:" I think they are going to immediately turn him over to the United States. I think nobody -- nobody in Pakistan wants to hold onto bin Laden, you know, or to open up any kind of trial of bin Laden on Pakistani soil, certainly, because it would just open up a can of worms.

ENSOR (on camera): Though there are bin Laden sympathizers in the tribal areas along the Pakistani-Afghan border, both U.S. and Pakistani officials argue that most Pakistanis would like to see an end to al Qaeda, and then there is that $25 million reward.

So most analysts argue that despite the defeat in Tora Bora, bin Laden would likely survive a little longer if he remains in the caves and mountains on the Afghan side.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Will Pakistan keep up the pressure on al Qaeda? Can Osama bin Laden find refuge there? Joining me here in the CNN WAR ROOM: Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, Maleeha Lodhi. CNN analyst James Steinberg; he was deputy national security adviser in the Clinton White House; and Senator Joe Biden. He's the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.

You can e-mail me your WAR ROOM questions. Just go to my web site: cnn.com/wolf. That's also, by the way, where you can read my daily online column.

And Ambassador Lodhi, let me begin with you. Do you believe Osama bin Laden may right now be in Pakistan?

MALEEHA LODHI, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Well, it's hard for me to speculate on this issue. I think we're talking about too serious a matter for me to get into speculation.

But as you have heard, by your own commentary on this program, we have taken every precaution. We have got a lot of reinforcements on the -- on the border. We have helicopter gunships operating right now. And you also know from what happened earlier this morning, that we have actually lost lives in ensuring that nobody crosses into the border into our country. They will find no safe haven, no sanctuary in Pakistan.

BLITZER: Senator Biden, do you have confidence that the government of President Musharraf in Pakistan is doing everything possible to find Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda fighters?

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DE), CHAIRMAN, FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: I think absolutely. I think the worst nightmare for Pakistan is for bin Laden to be wandering the countryside. I mean, that's the last thing they want.

The question is in my mind not whether they are trying but, you know, what -- what safe houses may exist, what -- whether or not he will choose that he has a better chance in Pakistan than he does in the caves or another exit route.

But it's hard -- I have no doubt that Pakistan has every interest in seeing it to that he is not wandering the countryside.

BLITZER: We have a question from Jeff in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. It deals with -- Jim Steinberg, I'll ask you to answer this question because it deals with the Pakistani intelligence and perhaps some support that once existed there for al Qaeda and the Taliban. "If Pakistani intelligence is as strong a supporter of the Taliban as we have heard, how hard are they really looking for fleeing Taliban leaders, especially Mullah Omar and other al Qaeda members?"

JAMES STEINBERG, FORMER DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think there's no doubt in the past, Wolf, that there was a connection between the Pakistani intelligence services and the Taliban. Pakistan had an interest in trying to create a more stable environment in Pakistan -- in Afghanistan and they chose the Taliban as instrument of that.

But right now, with General Musharraf having sided so dramatically with the United States, I think it would be very dangerous for the government to somehow allow these forces to continue to operate in their country, because it would a threat to his own regime.

And so I think the word will be very strong. There is certainly a risk that there are individuals within the intelligence services who may not be fully on board, but General Musharraf has put new leadership in there and I think they're working with him on this problem.

BLITZER: On this whole issue, Ambassador Lodhi, support for the Taliban that existed in the intelligence community in Pakistan, president Musharraf did fire some -- some leaders of the Pakistan intelligence service early on, when he decided to support the United States.

Are you at all concerned about some lingering support that may exist for the Taliban inside Pakistan?

LODHI: Well, I think a number of things are media driven, frankly, if I may be candid to tell you that people had talked about a groundswell of support for the Taliban in Pakistan. it never happened. Why? Because the media never bothered to ask people in Pakistan how people in Pakistan themselves felt about the Taliban. That never happened.

By the same token, I think these kind of worst-case scenarios or rather overdrawn sort of statements about possible sympathizers within the establishment are simply not true.

And I might add here, you know, one of the points made by one of your correspondents was the role of tribesmen. Now, let me tell you, it was with the cooperation of the tribesmen in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that we were able to detect and catch and capture the people who we were transporting to this place in Bohart (ph) and then this violent incident took place in which five Pakistanis lost their lives.

Now, we are continuing with this cooperation with the tribesmen and we are very confident that we will be able to capture everybody. We have captured already -- recaptured the people -- many people who escaped from there. And we are very confident that by tomorrow we will be able to recapture just about everybody who was on those three vehicles.

BLITZER: All right. Senator Biden, some have suggested it may be necessary for U.S. troops to help the Pakistani military find some of these al Qaeda fighters, Taliban supporters, perhaps even Osama bin Laden if he's found safe house, refuge in Pakistan. Is -- is that going to be necessary, do you think?

BIDEN: I think it's not going to be necessary, but I'm sure the Pakistanis will cooperate. And if they need the help, I'm sure they would participate -- allow us to participate.

But one of the things that -- to reinforce the ambassador's point, there is intelligence data we have received from the Pakistani intelligence services over the last two months that has been very valuable.

That is -- so they have already demonstrated that they are prepared to help us target al Qaeda folks, and actually even some folks -- the JEM were part of a group that's within Pakistan that were involved with bin Laden and we took out a house that -- through intelligence capabilities that -- back about a month ago, that killed 20, 21 leaders, including some folks who were, I believe, Pakistani. So I -- I think they have demonstrated their bona fides.

BLITZER: So as far as U.S.-Pakistani relations are concerned, dramatically different than they were during the Clinton administration. September 11 has changed the entire landscape on that front. Very close relationship right now.

STEINBERG: No question. I think that General Musharraf saw that he really had a very dramatic choice to make, because if he did not side with the United States in a situation like this that he'd be in the same position that the Taliban were in.

And that we had -- he had a choice to decide whether his future was with the West, to have opportunity to be seen with the rest of world in this coalition against terror. And he made that choice. It was not an easy choice because there were parts of his own society that would question that decision. But I think it's been vindicated by the way it's turned out.

BLITZER: The problem -- one of problems that could develop down the road, as you well know, Madame Ambassador, is the whole problem over Kashmir. The tensions between India and Pakistan.

Some continue to say -- I don't know how feel about that Senator Biden -- that could be still the most dangerous spot on earth.

I was there last year and the nuclear tensions that exist. Let me read to you from an editorial from an article that was in today's "Wall Street Journal." "General Musharraf and his coterie are accountable to no one. He may be regarded as an ally in the war in Afghanistan, but that war is now near its end. The U.S. should read him the riot act, impressing on him the need to shut down all terrorist activity in his country," alleging that Pakistan is supporting terrorists in Kashmir who are opposing the Indians.

LODHI: Let me make it very clear that Pakistan has always opposed terrorism of all kinds, whether it emanates from other states or it emanates from individuals or from groups or organizations.

But we must be careful not to confuse two issues here. Pakistan has always condemned -- and has also condemned the attack recently on the Indian Parliament. We've condemned all acts of terrorism, whether they have occurred in India or they've occurred elsewhere.

Pakistan itself has been a victim of terrorism. But at the same time there is an issue of freedom and of self-determination for Kashmiri people. We must not confuse a legitimate struggle with the actions...

BLITZER: Senator Biden, is it...

LODHI: ...of a handful of people.

BLITZER: Is it possible the tensions -- the nuclear tensions, if you will -- between India and Pakistan over Kashmir could spill over and negatively affect the U.S. war against terrorism?

BIDEN: It could spill over and negatively affect the world, quite frankly. One of the things that exists is, you know, when the Indians present their bill of particulars as to who they think is responsible for the attack on the parliament, if they have credible information that it's the JEM or whomever, I -- I think then the Pakistani government is going to be in a position where they're either going to have to deliver on their commitment that terrorism is what they oppose -- because it's clearly a terrorist act that occurred on the parliament, in my view -- and it's further been complicated, Wolf, by -- I know this is going to sound outrageous, but by us pulling out of the ABM Treaty.

What's going to happen now is you're going to see China start to test nuclear weapons. They're going to increase their nuclear arsenal. It's going to put pressure on India. That's going to put pressure on Pakistan all at a time that is a very, very, very delicate time.

So to me it seems pretty clear that India has to present a bill of particulars and then Musharraf is going to have to respond. He's going to have to -- he's going to have to deal with it.

BLITZER: We'll deal with the ABM Treaty on another occasion. But I see the linkage. The linkage was made, of course, by others as well. Jim Steinberg probably agrees with you on that.

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back: is it time for the United States to widen the war against terrorism? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the CNN WAR ROOM. What does the United States need to do to prevent al Qaeda fighters from finding a new base of operations? Should other countries now be targeted in the U.S. war against terrorism? Jim Steinberg, tough questions. What's next in the U.S. war?

STEINBERG: Well, I think there are two different dimensions here. I mean, there's clearly a sense in the administration that they want to keep the momentum going, that they want to keep the pressure on. And that means showing that this doesn't end in Afghanistan. That's an important priority.

That means war and they're going to be involved in the law enforcement, intelligence taking down the cells around the world.

But that doesn't make a big public splash. And so I think they will be looking for some other dramatic moves.

There's a lot of talk about Somalia. There certainly are groups associated with al Qaeda located in Somalia. And so I think that there's a real possibility, either by ourselves or perhaps working with the Ethiopians, that you'll see an operation there. That would send a strong message not only in Somalia but to the terrorist camps in Lebanon and Syria that maybe they ought to clean up their acts as well.

BLITZER: Senator Biden, we are hearing a lot that maybe some U.S. personnel may already be on the ground in Somalia or Yemen or Sudan or a bunch of places out there.

BIDEN: Well, I won't comment on that. But I think Jim's correct. I think the administration very badly wants to keep a -- a public face on this and keep the momentum going. I have even heard discussion of the Philippines as well and the...

BLITZER: Well, there are also some al Qaeda supporters...

BIDEN: There are some al Qaeda supporters. So it's with or without the support of governments in places where there are al Qaeda cells. And I -- but I think will you see the administration -- I have no firsthand knowledge at this point, but I think will you see the administration targeting another country along the road here, before -- before too long.

BLITZER: That country being Iraq, is that what you're saying?

STEINBERG: Well, no. I think that's end of road. I think there -- look, there's a clear consensus on the part of everyone we would love to get rid of Saddam Hussein. The question is, when, how, with whom. Alone?

And will he respond? So I mean -- but I think that's -- that's -- even the administration in our meetings that seems to be a -- they kick that can down the road a little bit.

BLITZER: Let me bring in Ambassador Lodhi. You represent a Muslim country here in the United States. How is all this playing in the Muslim world? The U.S. war against terrorism.

LODHI: I think what's been important are the signals that the Bush administration sent at the outset, that this was not a war against a nation or a people or against a faith. And that has helped considerably, along with other gestures that President Bush himself has made.

I think what will remain important down the road is to continue a campaign which is aimed at the hearts and minds of people in the Muslim world and to also address the substance of the unresolved political disputes that litter part of the Muslim world. I mean, I refer of course to Palestine. I also refer to Kashmir.

It's important for people in the Muslim world to be able to see that the international community -- led by the United States right now -- is responsive to issues that are close and dear to Muslim hearts.

BLITZER: Is it -- would it be necessary -- if it's necessary, if al Qaeda forces, Taliban supporters, Osama bin Laden is in Pakistan and the U.S. paramilitary or special operations forces are needed, would the Pakistani government welcome such support?

LODHI: Well, I think the critical thing is going to be intelligence. Intelligence is the key to being able to detect and track down people wherever they may be hiding or wherever they may want to hide.

As far as our ability to do this, the Pakistan army and the Pakistani law enforcement personnel, they are very confident that we can manage this. And we of course have jurisdiction over our sovereign territory.

BLITZER: And Senator Biden, button us up -- button up this conversation for us. So what do you anticipate in the immediate days and weeks ahead?

BIDEN: Continued operations in the caves, continued cooperation with the Pakistanis trying to find Osama bin Laden. And you will see some preliminary work being done as where to move next in terms of al Qaeda cells. I think you'll see an awful lot of continued discussion with allies as well as with the Pakistanis about what our intentions are. At least I hope that will be the case. And more of the same for a while.

BLITZER: OK. Senator Biden, chairman of the foreign relations committee. Ambassador Lodhi, Jim Steinberg, thanks for joining us here in the CNN WAR ROOM. And when we come back, a look at all the latest developments, including an effort in Yemen to crack down on suspected al Qaeda fighters. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's a quick look at today's latest developments. There was tight security as the first person charged in direct connection with the September 11th attacks faced a judge today. Zacarias Moussaoui was ordered held without bail during the hearing in Virginia.

There was fighting along the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan between al Qaeda prisoners and Pakistani security. 13 people, including seven prisoners, were killed. Al Qaeda fighters had been arrested crossing the border from the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan into Pakistan.

And diplomatic sources in Yemen tell CNN, security forces there are fighting suspected members of the al Qaeda network. The sources say those suspects may be wanted by the United States in connection with last year's attack on the USS Cole.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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