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American Morning

Decision Expected on John Walker Sometime This Week

Aired December 20, 2001 - 09:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: The White House is now said to be considering having Walker charged with assisting terrorist charge, which could carry a 10-year penalty for each count. Now that is an alternative for a charge of treason, which could carry the death penalty. A decision is expected sometime this week, and joining now to offer their perspectives on the potential case against Walker, Jeanine Pirro, Westchester County district attorneys, and criminal defense attorney Benjamin Brafman.

Good to see both of you. Welcome.

I know you have both had a chance to listen to most of the interview that was conducted with Johnny Walker, and he says very clearly that he went to training camps, his heart is with the Taliban.

Would this tape be admissible in court, Jeanine?

JEANINE PIRRO, WESTCHESTER CO. DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it really depends. We're talking about the possibility of him being charged and tried in a federal criminal court. And then, of course the issue whether or not he's been coerced into giving statement. Is he under the influence of any kind of medication? Is he entitled to an attorney? These are all factual questions that have to be answered. But he certainly sounds lucid, clear. It sounds as though he's very clear on what his intent was. His actions before he was caught are very clear, his sympathy, his empathy for the Taliban, his carrying AK-47 -- all of these are indicative of his intent, and this just kind of puts it all together, and makes it clear where his head was in terms of his situation.

ZAHN: If the tape is allowed, Benjamin, how damaging is this for his defense?

BENJAMIN BRAFMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it's damaging, and I think part of the problem with this tape and why it might be admissible, is it's a statement to a member of the media. It's not an interrogation by law enforcement officer. A lot of rights that normally apply might not be applicable here.

ZAHN: Although I think the man who interviewed, who conducted this interview, described to us this morning the conditions under which he did the interview. Of course, U.S. special forces are around. He's in custody. At one point, you can see him being administered a shot of morphine. BRAFMAN: Sure, he's on a morphine drip when he's talking. I think there is a part of this tape, quite frankly, that as horrific as the crime involved with is, there is a part of this tape that is somewhat sympathetic. He looks like he's been through hell. He looks frail. He looks disheveled. I think they should clean him up if they're going to show him off to the world, because he really looks sympathetic.

ZAHN: There is nothing sympathetic about this individual. He's an individual who's being cared for. He's been captured carrying arms in a country that we're fighting with, or in an area or an organization. He's with Al Qaeda. He's made a decision to be a part of that organization. He's not a sympathetic character. He's an individual who rejects everything that we stand for.

BRAFMAN: I think sympathy is a hard sell in this case because of the horrific nature of the crime, but there's a lot of people who got caught up what was happening in Afghanistan who are not heavy-duty players. There a lot of small fry who got caught up in the mess. And until we sort out exactly where he fits in. He may never have held a weapon. He may never have done anything to actively support the military part of this. He may be a misguided, brainwashed kid who got caught up in a cult. And I think until we sort it out, we should not discuss whether he dies, whether he spends 20 years in prison, because we have had him 18 days in custody. We no facts about what he did, where he was at the tine of the prison uprising and what role he played. The tape is damaging.

ZAHN: Right, and he described in great detail what happens in great detail, what happened in Mazar-e Sharif.

But what I'd like you two to focus in on now is some of what Johnny Walker's parents have told us, or at least John Walker's father told me when I interviewed him a couple of weeks ago. And here is what he had to say about his son and who his son is. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK LINDH, JOHN WALKER'S FATHER: He is not a traitor. He's a good boy. He did not do anything against the United States. He went there to help the Taliban, not a good choice, but did go to help the Taliban at a time when the United States was not involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Now here is what Linda Walker had to say in "Newsweek" magazine. She said, "If he got involved with the Taliban, he must have been brainwashed. He was isolated. He didn't know a soul in Pakistan. When you're young and impressionable, it's easy to be led by charismatic people."

What kind of affect do these statements have on...

PIRRO: This is not the time to say what he did and what he didn't do. But the facts as we know them are, that he attended an Al Qaeda terrorist camp in Afghanistan, that he met Osama bin Laden many times, that, in fact, he e-mailed his father shortly after the USS Cole was bombed, saying that the U.S. had no right to be in Yemen. He apparently has indicated to the media that he is sympathetic with the actions of the Taliban, and according to the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, he was caring an AK-47 when the CIA agents are trying to interrogate him.

ZAHN: So how would you defend that?

BRAFMAN: Well, I think it's going to be very difficult, and I don't care how good a lawyer he has, and he does have a good lawyer. It's going to be very difficult, primarily because of the horrific nature of the crime on September 11th, and because of the sentiment that is throughout this nation. Very few people will say anything nice about this kid, except for maybe his parents and people who knew before he joined the Taliban.

But I think what a lawyer has to do in case like this, is try and bring out the best of what America is all about, and what America is all about is that even if you commit a heinous crime, we allow the system to work. And in this case, the system not yet gun to work. So I would take a deep breath and wait and sort the facts out.

ZAHN: The only thing we heard from defense attorney so far, a man named James Brosnahan, who is highly regarded, no matter what side of the fence you're on in this one, and he said to "The New York Times,": "We know a lot about, John, and as we go along, I think that the American people will know him well and will understand him well." And then, voila, we see pictures of his childhood being released by his mother yesterday. Is this just the beginning of a big PR strategy here?

PIRRO: Well, I think, in any case, the defense will portray the accused, assuming that he will be accused with something in the near future, as an innocent victim, and I think that this tape makes it very clear where John Walker's head was, what he was thinking, what he did. He voluntarily went over to Pakistan and then Afghanistan. He become a Muslim here. He sided with them. He said specifically on the tape that he agreed with the Jihad, and that he was very confidence that he was on the right side. This is all pretty damaging stuff.

BRAFMAN: It damaging stuff, but the tape is the end of the story, and what we don't know how he got to that point, and I think that's relevant, and how someone who grows up in the United States ends in Al Qaeda network is something that sort of fascinates most of us, and I think it's relevant to the term in what degree of guilt and culpability he has.

ZAHN: You can't be pro-Taliban and pro-American at the same time.

BRAFMAN: You can't be pro-Taliban and pro-American at the same time. If you look at the history of the United States involvement in Afghanistan, we've been switching sides every 20 minutes, depending on what we wanted to achieve at the appropriate time, and there was a time when we were on the other side of this conflict, and most of the arms that people are using there came from us, so this is complicated stuff. And all I'm saying is however damaging that tape is, that's the end of the story. How he got to that point is relevant to determine whether we're dealing with someone who has voluntarily joined a criminal organization. And he's not the first young person involved in a cult with a charismatic leader and ended up not being able to make a choice. We have people committing mass suicide because someone tells them to drink a potion. I don't think those are voluntary, intelligent choices.

I'm not suggesting.

PIRRO: So then are you saying that he's been brainwashed or that he...

BRAFMAN: I don't know. That's what I'm saying.

PIRRO: OK, so we don't know that. What we know what we've seen on the tape.

BRAFMAN: Right, but what I am saying is that we don't know the answers to those very good questions that Jeanine just asked, and yet the entire country is talking about executing this person. And all I'm saying is let's wait and pause. He's In custody. He's not going anywhere. He doesn't pose a current threat. And let's just sort it out.

ZAHN: Boy, I'd love to bring the two of you back to discuss this when we -- when it is confirmed what decision the administration has made. I know that one network is reporting this morning that the administration has ruled out treason, but we should get a decision sometime within the next 48 hours.

And we'd love to have both of you back, Jeanine Piro, Benjamin Brafman.

BRAFMAN: Thank you very much.

ZAHN: Thank you. Have a good holiday you two.

PIRRO: Thank you.

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