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CNN Talkback Live

Did John Walker Know What He Was Doing When Fighting For Taliban?

Aired December 20, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON HARRIS, HOST: Did John Walker know what he was doing when he took up arms for the Taliban?

QUESTION: What this what you thought it would be? I mean, is this the right cause or the right place?

JOHN WALKER, AMERICAN TALIBAN FIGHTER: It's exactly what I thought it would be.

ROBERT PELTON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He got caught up in the war when it started shortly after September 11. So I don't think he deliberately went to fight against American interests.

JEANINE PIRRO, WESTCHESTER CO. DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This tape makes it very clear where John Walker's head was, what he was thinking, what he did. He voluntarily went over to Pakistan and then Afghanistan. He became a Muslim here. He sided with them. And he said specifically on the tape that he agreed with the jihad and that he was very confident that he was on the right side.

WALKER: We all have the same cause which has nothing to do with ethnicity (ph) or anything like that.

HARRIS: Should John Walker be charged with treason, sedition or something else?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't find him to be a criminal person or a person that was going against the U.S. I think that he was just a misguided youth that was looking for his own niche in life.

HARRIS: Do you have the soft spot for the man called the American Taliban?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(APPLAUSE)

HARRIS: Hello and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out." I'm Leon Harris.

Today, we are all learning more about John Walker, the American who fought for the Taliban. You are going to have a chance to view part of the extended interview with Walker made shortly after his capture in Mazar-e Sharif. And then we are going to sit down and talk about it with Terry Jeffrey. He is editor of "Human Events"; and Tom Roeser, who was a radio talk show host on WLS in Chicago. There they are.

Now let's start by playing part of the interview. You should know before going into this that Walker expressed some reluctance to being taped. So it wasn't as like he wanted be -- he wanted his story broadcast around the world. But with CNN's camera rolling and lights on, he did tell his story to journalist Robert Pelton. And in this segment we are about to watch right now, Pelton asked Walker about the uprising at the prison where Walker was held and about a CIA agent who was beaten to death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PELTON: Do you have any military skills or you just were...

WALKER: No.

PELTON: Did they take to those camps where they train you?

WALKER: Several training camps.

PELTON: A friend of mine was American and they had to hide him from the Secret Service all the time. And he went to fight in Kashmir.

WALKER: In Pakistan. Yes, that's how it is. They always hide...

PELTON: I mean, after this is all done, how do you feel? Do you feel like you were sort of -- you did the right thing or -- do you feel now, after there has been a number of losses on the Taliban side...

WALKER: With regard to this, this particular incident, you mean?

PELTON: Yes.

WALKER: This was only the mistake of a handful of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: All right. Now let's get right to it. Tom Roeser, let's let you weigh in first here. The two words we have been hearing the most in describing this young man has been misguided youth. Your opinion?

TOM ROESER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That's my opinion. I don't think he should be tried for treason because they have to prove that -- at least have two people witness that he has fought against the United States. That's difficult. And I think also we haven't had a declaration of war. I think he is a misguided youth, probably from the liberal side of the equation, from this county outside of San Francisco, Marin County, where his parents, unfortunately, allowed him to leave home at 16 to somehow take up with Islam. And I think that it's a case of real parental abuse. I think...

HARRIS: Abuse?

ROESER: Yes. I think they have neglected him. And I think that as a result of that, we have what we have. He is a sad youth who should stand trial, not for treason, but for aiding and comforting enemies of the United States.

HARRIS: Well, you know, it's funny. You say that his parents letting him go is a sign of abuse, but don't parents let 16 and 18- year-olds go and travel across Europe all the time?

ROESER: I think that you have an obligation as a parent -- and I'm a parent of four -- that when a child of 16 wants to leave home and embrace a kind of a religion like that, that you have an obligation to steer him. And I don't think -- if you saw them interviewed -- I don't think they cared very much about John. I think they just wanted his material comforts. They didn't really do a lot for him. And I think it's a very sad testimony to relativism in our society and a kind of an ultraliberal mindset which has created a sad case in John Walker.

HARRIS: Terry Jeffrey, you jump in here. What's your thought?

TERRY JEFFREY, "HUMAN EVENTS": Well, you know what, I grew up in Marin County, California. And when I was a young man, I went to Cairo, Egypt, lived there and studied Arabic and I can still recognize what treason is. And if what John Walker did is not treason, then we should strike that crime from our Constitution.

If people look in the Constitution, it says that treason consists in making war against the United States, adhering to its enemies and giving them aid and comfort. I think we all know that this man adhered to the enemy. He said so in the interview with this network. And I know that he gave them aid and comfort. And I think we can get two witnesses to prove it.

And here's an example: When CIA agent Mike Spann was interviewing him in that prison in Mazar-e Sharif, he refused to cooperate, at a very moment when Taliban forces were conspiring to kill Mike Spann. We have the other CIA agent who was there and presumably someone who was making that tape. Plus, we have the tape, which everybody in the whole world can view.

So, yes, this man committed treason. Yes, I think he should be tried for it. And I think that a good prosecutor can convict him.

HARRIS: Let me ask you something, Terry. You said that your experience, when you were 16, is really similar. You say you actually traveled to the Middle East. You also studied Arabic. That's exactly what John Walker left to go do. What do you think difference is the between what happened with you and what happened with him?

JEFFREY: Well, not when I was 16. I grew up in Marin County, Santa Fe (ph), California. When I graduated from Princeton, shortly -- a few years after that, I went and studied Arabic at the American University in Cairo.

And I'll tell you, one of the things I learned when I lived over there is that there's a great deal of anti-Americanism in the Middle East. And there is a temptation on the part of Americans, particularly liberals, particularly the ones who don't really love their country, particularly those who have been brought with a morally, relativistic point of view, to be seduced into anti- Americanism when they are living in an environment like that. It sure as heck didn't seduce me, I'll tell you that.

ROESER: Yes, let me jump in here and say that I read "Human Events" and I read Terry Jeffrey. And I doubt very much whether Terry Jeffrey's parents and his formulation was the same as John Walker's. It's a relativistic thing which has led him to a very sad past.

Now, as far as being a traitor is concerned, you have to have two witnesses for that. And if they have two witnesses, I will go along with it. But I think right now, the Justice Department and President Bush will rule that he will spend about 10 years in jail, which I think is sufficient.

JEFFREY: But, look, you know, you can say the same thing about anybody who commits a serious crime, that they're brought up by bad parents and their moral relativists. Someone who thinks it's OK to murder someone, that it's OK to murder 3,000 people in the World Trade Centers, obviously wasn't trained correctly according to the moral law. So there's no doubt this guy had a bad upbringing, but that doesn't free him from culpability for his treason against the United States of America.

HARRIS: It would be great if we had his parents here to defend themselves, but we don't.

Let's go to the phones right now. Kate from Oregon, you're on the line right now.

KATE: Yes, I think in my gut that this guy is mentally ill. And I think though it does not excuse conduct. I think he -- his conduct was as a war criminal. I think he's probably breached his citizenship, what I hear about the passport regulations. And he should be treated as a war criminal. But, I do think he didn't set out to do this. I think there is something wrong with the guy.

HARRIS: Well, Kate, do you think then his parents had anything to do with it? Or do you think that, in your words, his mental illness is the total thing, that it's the only thing that is responsible for his behavior right now?

We lost Kate. In fact, we also have someone here in the audience that's got a pretty similar viewpoint on this. Sandy, what was it that you were saying to us a while ago? SANDY: When they talk about him being a misguided youth, misguided youths do minor things, but they are made to be held responsible for them also. Somebody bankrolled this kid to get him from the United States to Yemen to Afghanistan. He took time to train in Yemen in a terrorist camp.

This is not being just a misguided young man. This is somebody who has serious problems. I understand he made statements about hating Americans, Jews and Christians. So, he was probably in the right place at the right time, but he should be made to be held responsible for his actions.

HARRIS: All right, thanks Sandy. And Sandy, by the way, is our resident expert on misguided youths. She's got 11 of them, we learned before we got started with this show.

Well, as the White House ponders exactly what Walker is going to be charged with, we are going to give you a chance to weigh in too. Should Walker face treason charges or should he face something else? Take our TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback.

We are right back after the break. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: I was a student in Pakistan studying Islam and I came into contact with many people who were connected with Taliban. I lived in a region, the northwest frontier province there. The people there in general have a great love for the Taliban. So I started to read some of the literature of the scholars and the history of the movement. And my heart became attached to them, and I wanted to help them one way or another. So I had the opportunity to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(APPLAUSE)

HARRIS: Welcome back.

We are continuing our discussion about John walker in the wake of the release of videotaped interview with him, we are talking with Terry Jeffrey and with Tom Roeser about what exactly should be happening to him, and if impressions about John Walker have changed any since this tape has come out. It seems as though the idea of him being a misguided youth, which we have heard so much about, is taking quite a beating today. I don't think we have heard yet anyone who cottons that particular idea.

In fact, we've got a fax here from John Kasperis (ph) in Los Angeles who says: If you had lost a son or daughter when John Walker was shooting his weapon at them, would you also feel he was misguided and give him a slap on the wrist?

Let's go to the phones right now. Tim from Illinois is on the line. He's been waiting. Tim, what's your thought?

TIM: Yes, I was just -- I wanted to pose to your panel, I keep this hearing over the weekend that this guy is a failure of this liberal upbringing. Well, I just want to ask this Roeser guy is Tim McVeigh a failure of your conservative values? I mean, that guy was brought up in a bread-and-butter town and look what happened to him.

So, don't bring in the politics of this nonsense. This kid is a loser. He just went adrift and he's in serious trouble. But don't bring in this politics and take advantage of trying to knock down some sort of progressive environment. That falls flat on it's face, sir. And, Leon, it's great to see you on the floor there. Man, you're a multi-talented guy. You're the natural. The Robert Redford of talk radio. All right. Take care.

HARRIS: Thanks a lot. And by the way, Tim is not my agent.

(APPLAUSE)

All right, Roeser guy, you want to go ahead and answer that one?

ROESER: Yes, this Roeser guy. Well, as far as I'm concerned, the guy who bombed the Oklahoma City thing was not a conservative or a liberal. He was a nut. And I think that in many ways this young man is a nut.

He joined the Taliban before we went to war with it. And unless you can prove to me that there are two people who saw him shoot and kill somebody, I don't think you are going to get any kind of conviction of treason on him at all. I think he's going to serve 10 years and that's what he deserves. So I think that answers that.

HARRIS: How about this, we've got this -- this just came in from William in Rio Hondo, Texas. Here, check this one out: John Walker was following that same American trait that brought about the Lincoln brigade, the flying tigers and the Americans in the RAF. We tend to support causes we believe in. When you're ready to execute Jane Fonda, talk about John Walker.

Anybody want to jump on that one?

JEFFREY: Well, Americans don't believe in the cause of al Qaeda or the Taliban if they are upholding American values. We believe in what the Declaration of Independence says, that all men are created equal, they're endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Al Qaeda and the Taliban believe in the exact opposite. They believe they have the right to take innocent life. This guy took their part and it's un-American. That's not in the American tradition.

HARRIS: You know, one thing I want to jump on here real quick though is this idea that his environment may have shaped him and may have had something to do with his thinking here. Isn't it something of a copout, saying that, you know, if someone can blame it upon their environment, they can't be held responsible themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I jump in there...

JEFFREY: Well, look, people have free will. I think this guy is a product of his environment. I think there is a connection between the fact he was brought up with liberal values and that he embraced the Taliban. And it's this: The root of liberalism is moral relativism. Liberals say we can't really say that this is absolutely right and this is absolutely wrong. Therefore, you can experiment with different ideas and not come to an absolute conclusion that something is evil.

That is the path that led him to the Taliban. And it's -- I think that he is, in fact, a product of his environment. Everybody has free will, therefore, they are morally responsible for their own actions. So he's both a product of where he came from and a person who's responsible for what he did.

HARRIS: All right. Let's go our audience.

ROESER: Well, I don't think you can denigrate the idea that somebody who was raised in a kind of environment where really anything goes, that it doesn't matter what religion you proscribe as a child, I think it leads to this kind of relativism. Now I'm not -- I am not excusing him at all. I'm saying he ought to be tried. I don't think you can hang a charge of treason on him. If you can, fine. But I don't think you are going to find two people -- the Constitution says you find two people -- I don't think you are going to do it.

HARRIS: Yes, we will talk about that in a bit. Right now, let's go to the phones. Ron from California has been waiting. I think, Ron, you have got a question for these two gentlemen?

RON: Yes, a question and also a statement. I think that, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Walker trained in al Qaeda camp to become a terrorist. And I don't know, I mean, at that point, you are not going to go out and roast marshmallows. I think you have an idea that you are going to do a specific thing.

I don't think we can label these people as, "Well, he didn't understand his mother." And the one woman said, well, he is insane. Well, that could be. But we are giving him an excuse as an -- we're giving them copouts. When do we answer for what we do? I think -- I don't know that the treason thing should be applied. I don't know that we are at war. And yet, he should do a long time in the slammer to let him think about what he has done. I think we can't emphasize that enough.

HARRIS: I don't think...

ROESER: I agree with that.

HARRIS: OK. I was going to say I don't think either of would you disagree with that, right?

JEFFREY: Well, here is an important point that the man alludes to. the "New York Times", for example, has reported that John Walker did in fact train in an al Qaeda camp. He was in the presence of Osama bin Laden.

Several years ago, Osama bin Laden issued a, quote/unquote, "fatwa", in which he declared on behalf of al Qaeda, a war against the United States in which he specifically called on al Qaeda members and other people who joined the jihad to kill American civilians. So if it is in fact true what the "New York Times" reported, that he was associated with al Qaeda, this guy associated with an organization that was explicitly at war with the United States, and explicitly intend to commit immoral acts of war by killing civilians, that is treason by constitutional definition without a doubt.

HARRIS: We know al Qaeda wasn't out at that camp baking brownies, that's for sure. Let's go to Charles here in the audience. You have been waiting patiently.

CHARLES: Thank you very much.

I just want to say that I served in United States Army during the 1960s. And if I had seen a soldier from the other side come at me, I would have tried to bring him down with my weapon. And since it's a proven fact now that he has been in the Taliban fighting the United States, I believe if he is tried by a military tribunal and found guilty of treason, we should bring him down.

HARRIS: No question in your mind then?

(APPLAUSE)

HARRIS: Thank you, Charles.

Well, Terry Jeffrey and Tom Roeser, thank you both for joining us today. We sure do appreciate you coming in and weighing in with your insights. Take care.

JEFFREY: Thank you.

ROESER: Thank you.

HARRIS: We will talk with you later on.

Coming up next, you might call Walker a traitor, but can you prove it? Former judge Catherine Crier and military law expert David Shelton will take the case right after this. Don't go away.

(APPLAUSE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PELTON: He's not anti-American. I think that's a myth. I mean, he was pro-Islam. He wanted to help establish an Islamic state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (FINANCIAL NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: The basement was filled with stench and bodies. And we didn't have any more weapons available. They said, look, we are going to die either way. If we surrender, then they will kill us. Is it better to be killed? I mean, if we send surrender, the worst that can happen is that they will torture us or kill us, right? So right here in the basement they are torturing us and killing us. So, we might as well as surrender and at least we will have a chance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(APPLAUSE)

HARRIS: Welcome back.

Now, we have been talking about the John Walker interview that so many people have seen today and last night. And here to tell us how it might hurt or might help his case, if possible, are David Shelton -- he's a military law expert and a former Navy defense attorney; and also with us is Court TV anchor and former judge Catherine Crier, who I'm also going to add here -- maybe to her embarrassment -- is also a former colleague of ours at CNN. Good to see you again.

CATHERINE CRIER, COURT TV ANCHOR: Not embarrassing to all. Good to see you're well.

HARRIS: You look great. Glad to have you with us again today.

Let's begin with you David, your thoughts as a former military court -- you have plenty of experience with military courts. What are your thoughts on all the talk that we've been hearing about whether or not the John Walker case is one that would be eligible for a military tribunal?

DAVID SHELTON, MILITARY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, I think, first off, because he is an American citizen, if he is brought back to this country, he is going to be tried in the federal courts. If he is tried over in Afghanistan, he will probably face a court-martial as opposed to a military tribunal under the Geneva Convention and unit the current UCMJ.

And I suspect -- I mean, one of the things that I have heard before in this discussion that you had is really quite a narrow focus on John Walker. We certainly know that Osama bin Laden must have thought much of John Walker in terms of the capture that he had. And we don't know what type of influence and duress that was put on John Walker. Certainly one can -- and I have heard terms like nuts. I have heard Mr. Jeffrey refer earlier to influence and seduced. Certainly one could assert a defense of mental responsibility in this case that could be quite compelling. And I think that that's what is going into the president's thinking currently on this issue and why they may not be proceeding with a greater charge, simply because, I think generally, Americans think this individual quite pathetic and they are worried about his mental stability.

HARRIS: Yes, we have heard that quite a bit already this afternoon. Catherine, after you have seen the tape here and with your background as a judge, when you see a tape like that, did you see anything in there that radically jumped out at you as something that would good for his defense or good for his prosecution?

CRIER: Oh, I think it's both. In an argument, you get the lawyer playing devil's advocate, I think it's primarily good for the prosecution because you've got someone who says I'm clear about what the Taliban was. I trained with al Qaeda. I knew what I was doing. This was furthering my goal in life to help these individuals.

But, in fact, for the defense, when he rolls eyes back a bit and talks about they would kill us, seems almost you could argue delusional about who the U.S. was, what the soldiers would do. Certainly you could argue that. But I don't buy all of this mom and dad did it, the kid was confused. Nineteen is the average age for most soldiers that fought in World War II, in Vietnam. We expect these kids to have an understanding by that age. I don't see this waiver of responsibility as going anywhere.

HARRIS: All right. Let's go to the phones right now. David in Indiana, are you there?

DAVID: Yes, sir.

HARRIS: Your thoughts? Your question?

DAVID: Well, my statement is if he spoke out against the United States that he should be dealt with as a POW. And if he had his citizenship revoked, and if they are not going to revoke his citizenship, then we should treat him as a treason offense.

CRIER: Leon, you have got to be really careful, because if you do treat him as a POW, you are acknowledging that all of the Taliban fighters are in fact prisoners of war, which will change the way we deal with these, since there was no declared war. And it will cause a lot of problems for the U.S. government.

HARRIS: Now, you say change how we deal with them. Well, how do you mean? How do you mean?

CRIER: That's right.

If you declare that John Walker is a prisoner of war, you are using a term of art that means something to a court. He is becoming something that is governed by a specific set of regulations. He was fighting alongside the Taliban. That means we are declaring those captured individuals prisoners of war, who are entitled then to certain rights, certain types of hearings. And you are tying the hands of the U.S. government. They don't want to do this.

HARRIS: David Shelton...

SHELTON: Well, right now, they are only classifying them as battlefield detainees. And I agree with the judge. She is exactly right.

If you classify them as prisoners of war, then I think they would be tried in a court-martial under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. But I do think -- I don't think it's just defense hyperbole in this case. I think you can raise a very compelling case that John Walker suffers from a severe mental defect and that he does not appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct. That's a defense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's a defense under federal law.

For example, several years ago, about two or three years ago, I tried a case where a Naval officer -- actually, we never even went to trial because we raised the defense. It was accepted. The United States accepted that. And they allowed the person to move on with their life. Now, I'm not suggesting now that that would be the case. I think the person would be incarcerated in a mental federal facility, such as one up in Massachusetts.

But, you know, this is not -- this is a person who is acting in a manner in which we cannot fathom today. And I think that, we as a society, have an opportunity here to examine this case critically and not simply jump on the political bandwagon and suggest that this is the liberal left or the conservative right. It's a matter of evaluating John Walker. And we don't know critical things about what he endured under Osama bin Laden.

Certainly, he must have been subjected to some tremendous influence and pressure. And that can constitute a defense of duress. It's critical that you know all of the facts.

CRIER: I really do find it amazing, though, that what we are saying is, if a person has a different pattern of thought than is traditionally accepted by Americans, that we are going to deem them insane, because the definition you gave them was the definition of legal insanity, mental disease or defect that causes someone not to know the difference between right and wrong.

He chose -- even before he left this country to begin his studies, he wanted to further those studies in Yemen. He chose to go to the al Qaeda training camp. He is moving through free will and determination until he reaches Osama bin Laden, who did or did not do something to this boy. I don't buy this insanity notion at all.

HARRIS: Well, speaking of buying...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: I'm sorry. Hold that thought, because, speaking of buying, we have got some people who bought a commercial break. And we have got to go to that right now.

We'll be back with some more thoughts on that.

And, Lee, on the phone in Tennessee, you stay there. We will be going back to you in just a moment. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out."

We are talking about that extended interview made with American Taliban John Walker. And we have been talking about that with David Shelton, who is a military criminal defense lawyer, and also with Catherine Crier, who is with Court TV right now, but spending a few more minutes with her old CNN family.

And we are going to go to the phones right now to Maria in Tennessee.

And, Maria, I must apologize for misspeaking on your name before the break.

Go ahead. What's your comment?

CALLER: Hi. That's OK.

Walker is a grown man. I have a 20-year-old son and he is a grown man. Walker was with these people when they bombed the Cole, the battleship. And he, as an American English speaker, he had a duty to get Mike Spann out of there before he was beaten to death. That's my comment.

HARRIS: All right, thank you, Maria.

Well, it sounds like Maria doesn't necessarily buy your argument, David, about there being a mental deficiency in John Walker.

Let me ask you about that, if you can explain some more about that, what you think exactly the tack one could take if one were trying to defend him on that, because we have heard also the idea that he was perhaps brainwashed. I have spoken to many Muslims in the past few weeks who have talked about how those who have followed Osama bin Laden have been brainwashed, if you will, with this particular brand of Islam.

Wouldn't that be a better tack to take than say that he was mentally deficient in some way?

SHELTON: Well, I think it may be both of those things. I don't know.

I know what the definition of legal insanity is. If I believe that I am the king of Siam and I am acting as such, I may think that I am reality. If I think that Osama bin Laden is Jesus Christ, I may think that that is the case, but that doesn't make me sane. And if I act purposefully, I may be judged by the law to be insane. The United States has recognized that defense.

And one of the things that we have to do before we go judge anyone, or before we go to any type of tribunal or commission or court martial or federal court is to examine this individual carefully. And defense attorneys are particularly skilled at that. And it's not simply something that you speak off of the cuff about. You have to investigate.

There are forensic psychologists and psychiatrists who would come in and evaluate this. And, frankly, we don't know what happened. And until we know the facts and the circumstances of what this person endured, I would say that you cannot sit in judgment of this person. That is what the rule of law provides, that Americans stand for this. They stand for having a system that looks carefully and does not rush to judgment. And I think that that is what we need to do in this case and have that process come about.

HARRIS: Yes, but America also stands for the free expression of opinions, which is what we're doing here.

Catherine, what is yours on that?

CRIER: Yes.

Leon, I don't think he is going to stand trial in a military tribunal at all. He may well not stand trial in a federal court, because the reason we're seeing delays out of the White House, I truly believe, is because they are continuing to interrogate, gather information. Jim Brosnahan, his attorney out of California, is a very bright lawyer. And if he can swing a deal for more information, we will get him 10 years on lesser includeds, that is what is going to happen.

I don't think we will see a treason charge appear in our federal system.

SHELTON: And that is a very good point. And it's one that, again, if he sees the light of day, if he cooperates, if he gives us information, it's in the United States' interest to be able to obtain that information.

And you have seen in the case of Aldrich Ames deals that were made very favorable to Aldrich Ames and his wife for that type of information. That is good. That is good defense work. It's good for the country and, again, the rule of law coming through. And that is something that we should hold up.

HARRIS: All right, let's go back to our audience now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I agree that we do need to get more information, find out about his involvement with the Taliban. At the same time, albeit American citizenship is a privilege, he is responsible for what he did, I think a good way to approach it would be the possibility to take away his citizenship and then try him as we would any other Taliban soldier or person within the army.

Why are we holding him to a higher standard? He is an American citizen. But at the same time, it seems like it's kind of a political thing. It's like, let's find a scapegoat. I doubt that John Walker was responsible in any way for what happened in New York. But, sometimes, politics and scapegoats go together.

HARRIS: Catherine, do you want to weigh in on that one? CRIER: Well, yes, Leon, in the 1942 case where the Supreme Court actually took a look at the ability of a president to create a military tribunal, there was a naturalized American citizen, one of the Germans, accused of being of a Nazi. And, in fact, the president pulled his citizenship. And we've heard people talked about: Read your passport; you can lose it.

The president could go forth on that status. I don't expect he will do so, but I don't know that a lot of people in this country would be disappointed if he did.

HARRIS: Becky is on the phone from Pennsylvania.

Becky, thanks for waiting.

CALLER: I would like to make a comment. John Walker, there are -- some people are leaders and some people are followers. Apparently, he is a follower. And unless we walked in his shoes and know what was fed into his mind, we shouldn't judge him so much until we have more evidence.

HARRIS: And, David, that is exactly what you have been saying.

SHELTON: That's right. That's right.

And I think we have to be careful. At the same time, I want to respond to something the judge referenced. This is not 1942, obviously. Ex Parte Quirin was the law and is the law.

CRIER: It's the last case we have got to look at.

SHELTON: Well, that's right, but you also not coming to the task with the fact that Congress created the Uniform Code of Military Justice in 1950. It has been enacted for 50 years now. It just had its anniversary. And in those 50 years, we never had one commission or tribunal convened, to my knowledge, and the last one being the Quirin case.

CRIER: Yes, there have been no attempts on the part of the president to do so, so you do not have any contrary authority to argue against the Quirin case.

HARRIS: Which is the reason why we don't have a road map of this case. And that's why we're trying to figure out where this thing may end up.

We are going to take a break right now and come back. But when we come back later on, we are going to be going to our James Hattori, who is in John Walker's hometown area. He is in San Anselmo in a cafe there. And we have been talking amongst ourselves about John Walker. We are going to find out in a just a bit what folks who lived where he did say what should happen to him.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS: And welcome back. As we continue our discussion on TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out."

We have been talking about the man of the hour, who happens to be John Walker, the American Taliban. And we have been talking amongst ourselves, as we said, before the break. But we want to hear what people who live where John Walker lived have to say about him and about what should happen to him.

Our James Hattori is standing by in San Anselmo, California in a cafe where I'm sure, James, people have plenty to say about this case.

JAMES HATTORI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Leon.

Yes, we are at the Comforts Cafe in downtown San Anselmo. And, of course, great food, but also on the menu under the category of food for thought is: What should happen to John Walker, or Abdul Hamid, the name he adopted in Afghanistan?

And why don't we talked to some of people here.

Ken Patrilla (ph), what do you think should be done with Mr. Walker?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One thing that I think that we might consider doing is, since so many Afghan fighters are apparently getting off free, perhaps we could strip him of his citizenship and let him stay in Afghanistan and be treated as some of the Afghan fighters are. That would be one solution.

HATTORI: Let me ask you this. Is this a big deal in Marin County, where he is from?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think it's a bigger deal in Marin County than it is anywhere else. There is probably a slight embarrassment, perhaps some annoyance, because it has been portrayed Marin County in an unfair light. And I've read some things that just are not true about lifestyles and things like that. And so I think there is a little annoyance.

HATTORI: About that stuff about the Birkenstock crowd and new ages, and that kind of stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is an unfair...

HATTORI: OK, Ken, thanks.

Let's come on this way and talk with Amy Vance (ph).

Amy, everybody has been talking about Mr. Walker. And the president is trying to decide what should happen to him. What do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think that I am not in the position to make a judgment about somebody's life because I really don't feel like I have information about exactly what crimes he has committed or even what the true definition of treason or the charges that he is bearing are.

HATTORI: If in fact he was involved in treasonous activity, it could carry a potential death sentence. Would that be appropriate if that were the case? Or would you not want to rule anything out or...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn't rule anything out. But I really don't feel like I'm an educated enough person at this time to make a judgment like that. I think that what he has done is very serious. But I just really don't know.

HATTORI: OK.

One last question to Dan Cattali (ph). What do you think should be done with Mr. Walker?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think it really depends on the actions he has committed. If he has raised a weapon and fired on American troops, that is a big difference, as opposed to if he is just involved with the Taliban and supporting their forces. So I think we need to find, like Amy said, what he has actually done, what he has committed. And then, from there, if he did fire on the Americans, then I think we should consider actions.

HATTORI: OK, great.

Obviously, various opinions. And I'm sure everybody can agree over there and here, Leon, that there is lot of information we would like to hear more about Mr. Walker's story and his adventures in Afghanistan -- back to you.

HARRIS: All right, thanks James -- James Hattori in San Anselmo, California. I kind of wished we had that first gentleman's comments with our last set of guests, because they were talking about this idea that John Walker's environment there in Marin County had something to do with him turning to be the way that he is. And now we hear folks in Marin County maybe feeling some embarrassment over this whole thing.

Let's go to our other guests right now, David Shelton and Catherine Crier.

Catherine, let's start with you. What do you make of that position that perhaps he is a product of his environment? And should that weigh at all in consideration of what should happen with him?

CRIER: Do you remember "The Twinkie Defense" of 1979? And that was a case out of California, the Mosconi case, where Harvey Milk shot the mayor. And we all decided at that point in the law that he had too much sugar in his system. And, basically, that was his defense.

We have had a long line of what I would consider victimized defenses since then. Very few of them I feel are legitimate. If this kid, who has been described by his own parents as very bright, well beyond his years in terms of education and talent, who knew exactly what he wanted to pursue when they assisted him to go to Yemen, if we are going to turn around and say, well, maybe he had a liberal household so we are going to let him off the hook, then you might as well throw most of the justice system out the window.

HARRIS: David Shelton, let me ask you another question. This idea of proving treason in this case, that we've been hearing off and on that the Constitution says there must be two witnesses -- but what about a case like this where the only two witnesses may have been I guess the worst possible witnesses you could have? Felons, the other Taliban, or some other terrorist may have been the only ones who could have witnessed him doing any shooting. How can you ever prove a case like that?

SHELTON: Well, I think it is very difficult. That is why the administration is not proceeding down that path at this point. I think that they playing this very carefully.

I think that they are also looking at what the American public has to say, which is, let's not get misguided in terms of this one particular individual, although this show has been dedicated to it. And I think it is worthy of it. On the other hand, let's not miss the target here, Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. It is not an errant, disgruntled, misguided, terribly affected individual that John Walker is.

He is obviously a person who has done some very, very disturbing things in terms of taking arms against the United States and in terms...

(CROSSTALK)

SHELTON: If I may just finish the thought.

HARRIS: Quickly.

SHELTON: That all goes into sentencing. And sentencing is very important in terms of how people are punished, whether they get the death penalty, whether they serve 10 years or five years. It all goes into painting a picture of this individual, explaining why they committed these acts.

HARRIS: All right, we're going to just wrap things up right now by showing our online poll right now. We went to you with that treason question because our question on the poll was: Should John Walker be charged with treason? And, overwhelmingly, 73 percent said yes; 15 percent said no, he should face lesser charges. And only 12 percent said he shouldn't be charged at all.

Of course, we're all going to be standing by to see what actually happens in this case.

Catherine Crier, thank you very much for coming back.

CRIER: Good to see you, Leon.

HARRIS: Great to have you back with us.

HARRIS: David Shelton, thanks a lot. We appreciate your time and the insight. It was great having you as well. Thanks as well to the audience at home. We thank you for joining us. And our studio audience, thanks. You guys had some great questions.

Thanks for watching today. We are back tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. Eastern.

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