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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

President Unsure of Osama bin Laden's Whereabouts; Pentagon Claims Forces Strike Convoy of al Qaeda Leaders

Aired December 21, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: As U.S. troops search cave by cave at Tora Bora, President Bush said he doesn't know where Osama bin Laden could be.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But I will tell you this, we're going to find him.

BLITZER: The Pentagon says U.S. forces harmed other al Qaeda leaders traveling in a convoy.

GENERAL PETER PACE, JOINT CHIEFS VICE CHAIRMAN: Those targets were attacked by AC-130 gun ships and by fighter aircraft from the carriers.

BLITZER: We'll go live to Afghanistan and to the Pentagon. And I'll speak live with former Pentagon official Lawrence Korb, Ken Adelman of Defensecentral.com, and retired General George Joulwan, former NATO Supreme Commander, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington. We're only a few hours away from something few would have considered possible only a few weeks ago. With the Taliban regime destroyed, a new government led by Hamid Karzai is about to be sworn into power. But even amid this landmark development, the battles continue.

And we begin in Afghanistan, where there's conflicting information about a convoy that came under fire from U.S. warplanes earlier today. CNN's Nic Robertson has that and much more. He's live in Jalalabad -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, those planes have taken off from the USS Stennis that's been in the Arabian Gulf now for a little over a week, its first engagement in a bombing run. The planes -- F14s, F18s -- hit a convoy of vehicles traveling from Khost in Pakhtia province just a little way south of here, and very close to the Tora Bora mountains.

That convoy, Pentagon officials say, contains senior al Qaeda or Taliban leaders. Now according to the "Afghan Islamic Press", the convoy did, in fact, contain local tribal leaders on their way to the inauguration ceremonies in Kabul later today, Saturday, of the new interim government of Afghanistan. But the Pentagon says that the information that they had that led them to target that convoy was specific and led them to believe that there were people in that convoy who were people that they were interested in getting to.

Now in the mountains, the search, as well, has been going on for Osama bin Laden for information. His whereabouts, information about al Qaeda, about pockets in al Qaeda, resistance in the mountains of Tora Bora. U.S. special forces going cave to cave; still combing the mountainsides for information. Also, now, the Pentagon saying that U.S. troops would join them in that search. The speed is of the essence in the mountains there to get all the information, to get all the documents that may be lying around before more snowfalls come, before that type of time-sensitive evidence is destroyed.

For the inauguration ceremony today in Kabul, the British Royal Marines will provide the security. They are the vanguard of the United Nations' peace-keeping force that will swell to perhaps as many as 5,000 troops in and around Kabul in the coming months. Now that force will be out on the streets today in Kabul. They will be providing security for the different politicians and international diplomats who will be arriving for the inauguration ceremony, the new interim government.

Power will be handed over from the outgoing president, Professor Burhanuddin Rabbani. He has effectively been without real power since the Taliban took control about five years ago. But he will -- in the ceremony -- hand over the position of leader, politically, inside Afghanistan to Hamid Karzai, a Pashtun from the south of Afghanistan. He is from the main ethnic group. The six ministers below him will come from the other ethnic groups inside Afghanistan. It's a 30- member government, and they will be in position for six months, until they -- a new, broader based government can be formed, what's known as a Loya Jirga, a grand council, which will then perhaps lead to elections in another two years time -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic, what's the expectations on the streets of Afghanistan? A smooth transition?

ROBERTSON: People here have seen so many transitions come and go. They have seen -- as they see it, in their view, so much involvement from neighboring countries, whether it was from Pakistan, they believe, behind the Taliban; whether it's from the Soviet Union in the 1980s; whether it's been perhaps involvement of other countries in the north of Afghanistan. They see themselves here as being pawns in a greater game. And to some extent, people are still seeing themselves cast in the same situation.

However, there is a great deal of hope, and indeed, expectation that things could get better. However, many people, after 22 years of war, will tell you that past -- if past performance is anything to go by, then perhaps they're going to get left by the wayside again. But most people do recognize this is an opportunity for the country; that the international community is focusing its attention and efforts here politically, militarily, diplomatically. And that there is a possibility of something better around the corner -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic Roberston in Jalalabad, thank you very much.

And this important programming note: Nic will have more at the top of the hour and later at 11:00 p.m. Eastern, in his special reports "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN".

And after a brief lull, the military campaign has picked up again with renewed fury. Let's go live to the Pentagon. Our national correspondent Bob Franken is standing by -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the view from the Pentagon is that even though the intensity of the combat may have settled down a bit in Afghanistan, if anything, the activity is more frenetic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): As the dust settles from the all-out war in Afghanistan, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says that a methodical search through the debris has already made a significant contribution to the war on terrorism.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There has been information that has been gathered in Afghanistan that has directly resulted in the arrest of people across the world in -- the other side of the globe and undoubtedly have prevented other terrorist activities.

FRANKEN: Which countries? Which terrorist activities? Could the defense secretary be more specific?

RUMSFELD: No, I thought I did well.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

RUMSFELD: I could, but I won't.

FRANKEN: Rumsfeld did confirm that U.S. troops have joined the search through the hundreds of caves and tunnels and that more are on the way for work that is very tedious, and at the same time, very dangerous.

RUMSFELD: The assumption is anyone in there is dead. But if you make that assumption, you can get in an awful lot of trouble awful fast. So they're exercising a great deal of care. And they're properly trained and they're doing a good job.

FRANKEN: They'll get some help from a new weapon, brand new. It was less than two weeks ago that an intense heat bomb was still being tested in the Nevada desert. It's called a thermobaric bomb.

EDWARD ALDRIDGE, UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: ... where we skipped a laser-guided bomb into a tunnel and exploded it with a delay fuse and experience a significant growth in overpressure for the tunnels. And temperature is something we clearly have a need for in Afghanistan, and they're on their way over there.

FRANKEN: Ten are being sent. They'll be dropped into the caves and tunnels from F-15 jets, even as the air war is scaling back. There was a three-day lull before U.S. planes attacked a convoy near the town of Khost, not far from Tora Bora, and not far from a facility identified as a terrorist training camp. The attack they said, here, killed Taliban leaders. But on the ground, some local officials claimed the dead were tribal elders on their way to the inauguration of Afghanistan's new government. Pentagon officials reject that possibility.

PACE: I'd like not to address the specific indicators that caused us to strike that particular convoy. But the intelligence that we gathered at the time indicated to us that this was, in fact, leadership, and we struck the leadership. And we will -- as we will do the next time we get that kind of intelligence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And, still, Pentagon officials said they were not able to identify just who the leaders were -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Bob Franken, at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

Has Osama bin Laden managed to escape the dragnet?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I don't know where he is. I haven't heard much from him recently. And -- which means he could be in a cave. That has -- it doesn't have an opening to it anymore. Or, he could be in a cave where he can get out, or may have tried to slither out into neighboring Pakistan. We don't know. But I will tell you this, we're going to find him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Meeting with reporters in the Oval Office earlier today, the president vowed his administration will be patient and relentless in pursuit of that goal.

What's the best strategy for going after Osama bin Laden? Where is the next battlefield in the war on terrorism? Joining me now here in the CNN WAR ROOM, retired General Joulwan, he's the former NATO Supreme Allied Commander. Lawrence Korb, he's the vice president of the Council on Foreign Relations and the former Assistant Secretary of Defense. And Ken Adelman of Defensecentral.com, a former U.S. arms control director.

You can e-mail me your WAR ROOM questions. Go to my Web site, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column.

And, General Joulwan, this war, despite some thinking out there, is not yet over, is it? GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Absolutely not, and I think the president and the secretary are -- are right on the mark. This is a long struggle. We're in this cave complex, which is very extensive, miles long, loaded with munitions and weapons. It's very important that we find out the intelligence that's available and take away this sanctuary, this planning cell, that's been used by the al Qaeda and others. Plus, it will lead us to the wider other front, which is a global front against al Qaeda, and it will have impact here on homeland security.

So it's far from over; we need patience, we have to stay focused, not only by our military, but also by our government and the American people.

BLITZER: All right. John (ph) has an e-mail question for you, Larry. He's from Arizona. He wants to know this: "I would like to know if anyone thinks that we blundered in letting the Eastern Alliance go it alone in the mountains of Tora Bora," where presumably Osama bin Laden was hiding out.

LAWRENCE KORB, FORMER ASSISTANT DEFENSE SECRETARY: No, I don't think we did. I think you have to allow the local people to do it first, because we don't want to be seen as another group of foreign invaders. We also want to minimize the risk to our own troops. And so I think now that they've proved that they haven't been able to do it, it does make sense for us to send more troops over there to do what General Joulwan says we have to do, which is to get him, because until we get him, we can't be sure that he won't be up to more evil against us.

BLITZER: We have another e-mail for you, Ken. Glenn (ph) in Ontario writes this: "Is it possible that Osama bin Laden has already been killed and U.S. intelligence officials are keeping it a secret?" I can't tell you how many people think there's a conspiracy out there and the government isn't letting everyone in on all the information.

KEN ADELMAN, HOST, DEFENSECENTRAL.COM: No.

BLITZER: You totally believe the government on this one?

ADELMAN: I believe if the government had that kind of information it would certainly either be announced -- it would be announced -- but, if it weren't announced, in 10 minutes it would leak out.

BLITZER: But you could understand the suspicion that if the U.S. confirms he's dead, he becomes -- at least to some people out there -- a martyr.

ADELMAN: No, but I think it's a very good sign that if he's -- the U.S. announces that he's dead. I think that it's absolutely necessary and it will lead to the conviction that we're not going to put up with people who are involved in international terrorism or weapons of mass destruction. I think it's a very good beginning to the war on terrorism. As Churchill said at one point early in World War II, "It's kind of the end of the beginning." But it's so -- it's certainly not anywhere near the end.

BLITZER: And all of you who have worked in government can testify, you can't keep a secret like that.

JOULWAN: But I think also, Wolf, it's important on this issue of bin Laden that even if he is confirmed dead, that should not stop our efforts there. I'm afraid that some will say, well that's it, it's over. That would be the wrong move to make. We have to keep this pressure on. This is a worldwide network and bin Laden is a symbol of that and we have to get him. But there's much, much more to do.

ADELMAN: It's not just the network of al Qaeda, it's also -- as we've talked about many times -- it's Iraq being the state that...

KORB: I knew you were going to bring that up.

ADELMAN: I wanted a Christmas present.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: Let's hold off on Iraq for the time being.

ADELMAN: I want it by Christmas.

BLITZER: You're a retired four-star general, you're a military man. Here's a question, a lot of our viewers want to know this because they're worried, especially on Christmas Eve, as we approach the holidays. They're worried about the Marines, especially who are going in to the Tora Bora region.

George from Rhode Island asked this question: "What steps will our military take to make sure the searching of the Tora Bora caves goes as safely as possible?" They've heard about the booby traps, the land mines.

JOULWAN: These troops are extremely well trained. You can't eliminate all risks. There's always risks when you go into a complex like this. But I can assure you, they are well trained for the mission; they will take every precaution. But they will focus on the mission. And there is risk in doing that. But I will assure you, they will take all the precautions, but they will get on with the mission.

BLITZER: Larry...

ADELMAN: Isn't that wonderful that there are so few casualties? I mean, we've done so much in way of liberating Afghanistan.

KORB: Isn't it ironic that the Bush administration said what a terrible military they inherited and how good it is?

(CROSSTALK)

ADELMAN: Well, I don't know, the military has always been the best. And I think that was fair that the Bush administration said that it had to be repaired in various ways. It's -- some parts of it ...

(CROSSTALK)

KORB: He hasn't repaired it at all yet and look how good it is doing.

ADELMAN: No, some parts of it, especially the morale, the esteem, the people part of the Pentagon, certainly had to be bolstered from the years of being...

KORB: But, it was already being bolstered. I mean, they haven't done a darn thing.

(CROSSTALK)

JOULWAN: ... on casualties, I think even though we've -- we haven't taken many casualties, I think we have to be very careful. We should not measure success or failure by casualties. And the troops have to understand that. And I remember six years ago, December 20, we went into Bosnia with the same sort of apprehensions. The troops are well trained; the leaders understand what they need to do. But we ought not to -- to cut back or -- or half step here because of casualties. We take every precaution, but we've got to focus on...

BLITZER: Larry, are you confident that Hamid Karzai, who's going to take over the government for the next six months, can keep the government in place and bring some sort of stability to Afghanistan?

KORB: Well, I think he has a reasonably good chance, because the international community is behind him. The UN I think did a masterful job in brokering this government that covers all of the -- all of the parts of Afghanistan. You now have the British in leading the peacekeeping forces. And I think the United States has got to be involved. This is not something where we can just walk away and say we just do sort of the heavy lifting, now we're going to leave this to other nations. We've got to leave troops in there.

And I think if we do that, Karzai has a reasonably good chance...

BLITZER: But as far as the peacekeeping mission is, the British are taking the lead on that, not the U.S.

ADELMAN: Right. I would not have the U.S. involved in the peacekeeping mission. I would have two things that are absolutely critical. One is the right of the United States to re-enter there with massive force, if it needs to be there. And number two, I'd want the peacekeeping operation under the British and others to report directly to Tommy Franks and keep that line, chain of command the same.

KORB: You can't have it both ways.

JOULWAN: No, no, you've got to have unity of command.

ADELMAN: I would have it both ways. That's exactly right. JOULWAN: You've got to have unity of command. And I would also say, this next phase of reconstruction needs to be looked at very carefully with clear objectives, clear milestones of what needs to be done, and we need to play a political role in that. Other troops can do it, but we need to stay involved.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by, stand by. We're going to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about when we come back.

The Secretary of State Colin Powell says Afghanistan is not necessarily a model for attacking Iraq. Is he right?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the CNN WAR ROOM. Can the United States use its campaign in Afghanistan as a blueprint for taking the war against terrorism to other countries, Larry Korb?

KORB: Absolutely not. It's a completely different situation. And anybody who thinks that you can say it worked in Afghanistan, now it's going to work in Iraq, is -- is wrong. And I think Colin Powell, in the interview he gave to the Washington Post was 100 percent right. You don't have a Northern Alliance type of situation in Iraq. The Iraqi military's in much better shape than the -- than the Taliban is.

And so if you're going to go after Saddam, you better use a different model.

BLITZER: Ken Adelman, I know you totally disagree with your good friend Colin Powell, who said this in the Washington Post today -- Larry is absolutely right, he said this: "They are two different countries with two different regimes, two different military capabilities." Referring to Afghanistan and Iraq. "They are so significantly different that you can't take the Afghan model and immediately apply it to Iraq."

ADELMAN: I don't know what he's talking about immediately applying it to Iraq.

BLITZER: You wanted to do it before Christmas.

ADELMAN: I wanted to do it before Christmas, that's right. I wouldn't take the exact same. What can be done is an amazing use of air power with great precision against troops that are demoralized to start with, that the army is one third the size it was in the Iraq war -- in the Gulf War -- and it was a cakewalk even then. And our capabilities are many times the number that we had right then.

I think that if we're going to win the war on terrorism, we have to stop the real central headquarters of at least weapons of mass destruction. We got new information just yesterday in the "New York Times" that they have, you know, 40, 50 sites of weapons of mass destruction of Iraq.

BLITZER: Let me ask you... ADELMAN: I'd hate to find out the way we found out on September 11 that, yes, he was developing all of this and we did nothing in the interim.

BLITZER: Some will dispute your notion that the Gulf War was a cakewalk, but that's -- that's another issue.

ADELMAN: We did a marvelous job in the Gulf War.

BLITZER: General Joulwan, listen to this question from Fred (ph) in Halifax. "Does the United States have sufficient forces presently in the Middle East to launch a successful attack against Iraq now?"

JOULWAN: No. Let me be very blunt about it. I think when you're talking -- the president did a wise thing in Afghanistan, which I hope he would do for any other place we go into. All options are on the table. When you say all options are on the table, that's air, land and sea. So you paint a confusing picture to whoever you're going to confront. We do not have sufficient air, land and sea to do what we're doing in Afghanistan simultaneously do what we're doing -- what we need to do in Iraq.

BLITZER: Is the military sort of stretched thin right now?

JOULWAN: I think we're stretched -- we have half the force in the Army that we had in the Gulf War.

BLITZER: The Saudis and the Kuwaitis going to let the U.S. use bases there to launch strikes against Iraq?

KORB: Not unless you can come up with some clear, convincing evidence he was behind the September 11 attacks. The things that Ken mentioned, we know that. We've known that for -- since 1990. And you cannot use this as a justification for going in against Iraq.

What you need to do is what Powell said, get the smart sanctions in there to prevent him from getting any more military capability. And if you get credible evidence that he has a place where there are weapons of mass destruction, get the U.N. to authorize you to go in and take those out.

ADELMAN: We have seen very clearly that the smart sanctions are really dumb sanctions. They're less...

KORB: We hadn't even tried them.

ADELMAN: They're less sanctions by all...

KORB: Yeah, but they're stronger on the things that you need to worry about.

ADELMAN: They're less than they were. What you are -- you don't have to make the case on September 11, although we've said on this show before: number one, Mohamed Atta met with a leader of Iraqi intelligence.

BLITZER: All right. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Ken, hold on one second.

ADELMAN: And that was very important on that.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We only have a few seconds. I want the general -- I want the general to give us an assessment. What's next in this U.S. war on terrorism?

JOULWAN: First of all, let's finish what we're doing in Afghanistan. Secondly, I really think the homeland security piece is a very important part of all of this. And Governor Ridge needs all the help he can get, not just from agencies, but also -- to a degree -- from the military. And, thirdly, I think we have to take this global look at al Qaeda and other terrorist groups and figure out what sort of strategy we need to confront them. It is a daunting problem.

BLITZER: All right. And we've got to leave it right there. General Joulwan, Ken Adelman, Larry Korb, happy holidays to all of you. Happy New Year. Thanks for joining us.

U.S. warplanes resume bombing in Afghanistan. We'll have that, and the other latest developments when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here are some of the latest developments we're following. The Pentagon says a convoy that came under U.S. fire today near Khost was carrying Taliban or al Qaeda leaders. Local officials are quoted as saying the convoy was taking tribal leaders to the inauguration of the new government.

And, British peacekeeping forces have moved into the Afghan capital of Kabul, where the new interim government will be inaugurated in just about six hours.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again Sunday, when I'll have an exclusive interview with Hamid Karzai, who by then will be the newly sworn in chairman of the new Afghan interim government. That's at noon Eastern on CNN.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CROSSFIRE begins right now.

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