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CNN Talkback Live

Who Is Richard Reid?; Is "Time" Man of the Year an Obvious Choice or Safe Bet?

Aired December 24, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One person pulled his hair from behind. The stewardess jumped on top of him and tried to, I think her biggest concern was trying to stop the fire.

DARYN KAGAN, HOST: Terror on board American Flight 63.

TOM KINSON, LOGAN AIRPORT: At this time, it appears that the shoes did contain det-cord and some form of improvised explosives, C-4 in nature.

KAGAN: Who is Richard Reid and what would you have done when the flight attendant screamed for help?

Also, "Time" Magazine's Person of the Year.

RUDOLPH GIULIANI, MAYOR, NEW YORK: I was frankly stunned for a short period of time and then I said "wow."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, he kept the city together under pressure, so it makes me feel good.

KAGAN: Obvious choice or safe bet? And how can "The Greatest" help fight the war on terrorism?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE, AMERICA SPEAKS OUT, on this Christmas Eve edition. I'm Daryn Kagan, so happy you're with us on this Christmas Eve afternoon.

We're going to start with the question, who is Richard Reid and how did this guy manage to sneak bombs onto a plane in his shoes of all places? At least three countries are involved in this investigation into Saturday's incident on board American Airlines Flight 63, which was going from Paris to Miami.

Listen now to how passengers themselves described what happened on board that plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I heard Vicky my wife saying "it's strange, it smells smoke.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It smelled like it was a bomb or something like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She screamed and was pushed away, and then she yelled "help me" at which point somebody from behind the person pulled his hair from behind. He had very long hair. And the stewardess once again tried to jump on the person to stop them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then five or six people like at once came up and like just jumped on the guy. It was pretty amazing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two people that were seated opposite the person in question jumped on top of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well first, they hit him over the head with or something with the fire extinguisher to kind of knock him out a little bit, and then they sedated him afterwards.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They got him quieted down with earphones and belts and stuff like that, and then there were passengers watching him all the way to Boston.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And also where he was from, he just said "a lot of places." You know, somebody else asked him what was his motive? He just said "you'll see. You'll all see."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was the longest two hours and forty minutes of my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: So who is the suspect in this case and what happens to him now? Our Susan Candiotti is on that story and joins us now with the latest. Susan, I understand there's developments even today.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Daryn, and so far sources tell us that no links have been found between Richard Reid and al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization at this time. But of course, that's one of many things that investigators are looking at.

They say that for now they are satisfied that his name is indeed Richard Reid, although sources say there were two other names in play, but that is the name on his British passport, and authorities say that including here and in Great Britain, that he is a British citizen and that the passport that he was using interestingly enough was issued at the British Embassy in Belgium less than three weeks ago, so earlier this month.

Now, we also understand from an official at the British Embassy in Washington that about 20 minutes before Reid's court appearance in Boston this day, he did have an opportunity to meet for about that length of time, 20 minutes, with an official with the British Embassy, a member of the British Consulate there.

He made this appearance in court in Boston before a U.S. magistrate. Now technically, this is called a first appearance to hear the charge filed against him at this time, which is called a criminal complaint of interference with a flight crew.

Additional charges could be filed at a later time, but for now he was simply asked during this brief appearance, at which time he wore handcuffs and leg irons and court security very tight, whether he understood the charges, and Reid shrugged his shoulders and said to the court "yeah."

He has no attorney at this time. However, the court is going to be appointing one and that attorney will be appearing with him presumably at his next scheduled court appearance this Friday in Boston. That's called a Detention Hearing. They'll determine whether bond will be set. But at this time, he's being held without bond.

KAGAN: Susan, do we know anything more about this guy, about his nationality, about the actual explosives that were supposed to be in his shoe?

CANDIOTTI: Well, the nationality, they are saying that he is a British subject. As far as the explosive materials, we know that at this time, scientists at FBI headquarters, at a lab there in Washington are conducting tests on just exactly what the explosive material was hidden inside his sneakers.

Sources tell us there were about ten ounces in all. It's unclear whether they were in both shoes or just in one shoe. Of course, the question, would it have been enough to do serious damage or bring down the plane?

Some experts tell us they don't think so. But sources with the FBI tell us that, at this time, it's far too early to tell. First, they must determine what it was and then find out whether other explosive material was to be used in combination with that to set off the sneaker.

We know that there was wiring of some kind. It might have been detonation cord, might not, but there is no apparent blasting cap, so something else would have been needed for it to burn it up to explode.

And once they find out what the material is, they'll be recreating this and all this part will take a lot of time, and they could go so far as to put it in a plane in a mock-up with plane seats and find out where exactly it was on the plane and then light it to see what kind of damage could have occurred.

KAGAN: Susan, we have a couple questions for you from members of our audience. First, this one from Richard.

RICHARD: Yes, I'd like to know if this individual was Islamic. Have they checked that out?

KAGAN: Is he Muslim?

CANDIOTTI: Well the information that we have early on from sources that he had converted to the Islamic faith, and used another name. However at this time, we stress that authorities both here and in the UK are saying that he is a British citizen.

KAGAN: And Michele (ph) has a question for you.

MICHELE: Is it true that he wasn't carrying luggage, because that was one of the things that I had heard on the news? And if so, why wouldn't that tip the French security or French authorities off, the passenger of this nature who isn't carrying luggage? Why wasn't there anything done to detain him?

KAGAN: Seems obvious to you, but in fact Susan, red flags did go off. This guy didn't get on the plane the first time and then the French National Police said "no, it's OK. Go ahead and put him on the plane."

CANDIOTTI: That's right. There were red flags when he first tried to check in. In fact, you're quite right that is one of the many things that sends off warning signals to authorities.

So when he checked in, he indeed did purchase a one-way ticket. He did not have any check-in luggage. He did have a small carry on, and close examination was made of his passport.

French authorities detained him for such a long period of time that, in fact, he missed that flight. However, the ticket was reissued on the very same flight for the very next day, which was Saturday.

Now clearly, this is one of many questions that investigators here and overseas are asking about what happened, what changed their mind? Was in fact the passport in order and that's what prompted them to reissue the plane ticket? But if so, what about all those other red flags that you and your audience mentioned? Why wasn't that enough to conduct a more thorough, perhaps lengthier investigation.

So yes, that's one of the key areas that everyone's looking at.

KAGAN: Susan Candiotti, good work. Thanks for the information. A lot of people interested in our audience, because so many people of course are flying over the holidays. Thank you very much.

Of course, if you've tried to get on a plane recently, you might wonder how Reid got past all that tightened security. We were just talking about that in our audience here.

Let's talk to Mary Schiavo. She's an aviation disaster attorney and former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transportation. Mary, happy holidays. Thanks for joining us.

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION: Thank you. My pleasure.

KAGAN: Do you hear this story? You hear some things that appear to go right. A lot went wrong. What concerns you the most about what you've heard?

SCHIAVO: Well it's our reliance on profiling. This is a classic. This could be textbook case, if we had such a thing, on the weaknesses in the system and what can go wrong. The profiling system in place on September 11 here in our country didn't work. The same profiling system in place in Paris for American Airlines did not work either.

Part of the problem is, is you get the information from the passenger. If the passenger lies to you, you have false information in your system and then there's no coordination with law enforcement, or even with the security screeners. And then finally, most of our explosives and detection equipment is aimed at checking two to three percent of the baggage, and of course, he had no baggage.

So this proves we have several problems, most of all is profiling and then final, a residual question, where were the Air Marshals flying in and out of Washington, D.C. protecting members of Congress? We've got to change that as well.

KAGAN: Well the other question I have, and speaking of Congress, when we were having the big debate about baggage screeners. Everyone kept pointing to Europe. Look how well they do it in Europe, that that's the way it should be done.

This guy was coming from Europe and look at him. He made it through.

SCHIAVO: That's right. Europe is not our model, particularly now the EU is going to see a tremendous number of problems now that their national boundaries, national identity, even their national law enforcement starts to disappear.

I think the models we need to look at are obviously Israel, Japan, Britain, but I would not look to the Continental Europe as our model. They have tremendous problems, particularly in national identity.

KAGAN: And, Mary, what about American Airlines? Two planes on September 11, a plane that crashed in Queens, and now this plane involved as well. Should this be something that we should be looking at as an airline, or is this just bad luck?

SCHIAVO: You've hit it exactly. The biggest problem in the system, we have removed all accountability and Congress shares the blame on this. At least in the past, we could say "look airlines, you are responsible."

But after September 11, Congress sent a very, very poor message to the bad performers in the industry, and that is, when you do not have good security or good safety, et cetera, Congress will basically bail you out and you have your insurance coverage and you're not accountable.

Here, there is a major accountability issue, and of course, American Airlines led the pack in security violation fines in the last two to three years.

KAGAN: Mary, we're going to have you hang up - not hang up, hang out with us for the rest of the hour and stay with us, talking more about airlines security and other topics. A lot of you still traveling for Christmas and having to deal with the security.

We're going to actually go to the airport, one of the busiest airports in the world. Jeff Flock will report in from Chicago's O'Hare Airport.

Also, we're going to bring along some other guests, spending this Christmas Eve afternoon with us, including columnist Arianna Huffington, John Fond, and Jake Tapper. They're all weighing in on aviation security and a lot of other topics. Stay with us. We're back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We move things along here, don't we TK. We'll get to you in just a moment.

OK, as of yesterday, all U.S. airports are required to add random shoe checks, shoe checks to random baggage checks that are already underway. Let's find out how that's working out.

We're going to head to O'Hare Airport in Chicago and our correspondent, Jeff Flock whose shoes are doing just fine, but what about the travelers that you found, Jeff?

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're getting some mixed reaction of that. You know, the one good thing about all of this as I stand in front of the main security checkpoint here at the American Terminal, Daryn, is that this travel day has been reasonably light.

I'm going to ask Rick to try not to hit anybody in the head with the camera as he moves through and shows the lines there. The lines really are not much to speak of, and that has made the increased security around this airport, as well as around the country a lot easier to take.

And I'll tell you, I want to just drive this home here, because I've got a family from Springfield, Illinois, the Tucker Family, who has been planning a trip to Austria. And I say Austria, that's Vienna, Austria for how long?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost a year. Right after the 1st of the year, we started planning this trip.

FLOCK: Did you ever give any thought to not going?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. We were looking forward to it the whole time. That's what we've planned for. That's what we're doing. It's Christmas.

FLOCK: Now for your daughters, this is your Christmas gift, right? You didn't get any other kind of cool things? This is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, this is Christmas. FLOCK: I've got to ask you, with the stuff you've heard just this past weekend about people with plastic explosives in their shoes, I mean what's going through your mind right now as you board, prepare to go right behind you there through that security checkpoint and get on the aircraft?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just excitement about going. Not scared or anything. Just ready to go.

FLOCK: That's your sister over there. Do you share that or do you have any concerns?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don't have any concerns. I don't have anything on me, so it will be fun.

FLOCK: You got a brave family up here, but clearly that story had to have resonated a bit with you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well it did when it happened. You take a look at what's going on in the world and if you look at it philosophically, if something's going to happen, it can happen in a car, in a train or on a bus. And, I think that the security measures that they have going on in the airports right now, it's probably safer to fly today than it was six months ago.

FLOCK: We'll maybe make that the last word. Daryn, as you heard, this family here feeling very secure about what they're about to embark on, and I know you've got a flight that leaves here in what, just a little bit of time, so we may let you go.

KAGAN: Let them go.

FLOCK: To get to the airport, to get to the gate and get on their way. So that's the latest from O'Hare, Daryn.

KAGAN: Hey Jeff, before we let you go, have you been up to security where they're doing these shoe checks? Have you actually seen them?

FLOCK: You know, we're able to see and in fact, Rick, I don't know if we're able to see back off in the distance there. Occasionally when people go through the security, the magnetometers, it's off in the distance there, you're able to see people stopping on the other side of that.

We haven't really been able to see from here, other than with the naked eye. We have some pictures that have come in though, where people - in fact, in one case, people having actually their shoes put through the x-ray machines. So, a whole host and different airports doing it different ways, but clearly the random checks are underway.

KAGAN: It gets stranger and stranger as we go on. Jeff Flock at Chicago's O'Hare, happy holidays. Thanks for working with us on Christmas Eve. We really appreciate it.

We somehow managed to drag some other folks out on Christmas Eve, including Arianna Huffington, a nationally-syndicated columnist and chairwoman of the Center for Effective Compassion; John Fond, editorial board member of the "Wall Street Journal". He's also co- author of "Cleaning House: America's Campaign for Term Limits and the Way Things Ought to Be"; and Jake Tapper, Washington correspondent for Salon.com. A special thanks to all of you again for coming out on the holiday. We really do appreciate it.

JAKE TAPPER, SALON.COM: Sure, Daryn.

KAGAN: Jake, let's start with you. You hear this latest story of what happens on this flight from Paris over to the U.S. and you think well the system kind of works, because they caught the guy and nothing bad happened? Or does it make you worry about flying?

TAPPER: It makes me worry about flying. I mean I think obviously the flight attendants and the passengers on that plane are to be commended, but I mean what kind of an alert does American Airlines need to know - before they realize that they have security problems and they need to start getting serious about security?

You know I interviewed a few airline representatives in doing a story about the Airport Security Bill, Airline Security Bill, and they said "well, we don't want to focus on the baggage. We want to focus on the passengers."

Is there anyone who looks more like a terrorist than this guy? I mean why was he not stopped?

KAGAN: Well he was actually stopped the first time, but then the French National Police said "hey it's OK. Give him the ticket back, let him go. It kind of worked.

TAPPER: Yes, well I don't think the airlines are taking this seriously enough, and I know that they're concerned about the bottom line, but what's their bottom line going to look like after the next, God forbid, incident?

KAGAN: Arianna, if you're on that flight, do you have what it takes to tackle the guy once you start seeing the match with the shoe and the whole bit?

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well you never quite know until you are there, but I completely agree with Jake. You know, we just gave the airline industry $15 billion in a bail-out package, and you would have thought they would do something with that money that puts the security of passengers first and they are not doing that.

And there should be a lot of outrage, especially when you consider that we have the president, we have so many of our political leaders urging the public to fly.

They're telling us that if we don't fly, effectively the terrorists win. If we don't fly, we don't return to normal, and that's somehow wrong for America, wrong for the economy. Well here we are, this is a very wrong message to send to people. Yes, sometimes you have to fly, but to fly if we don't absolutely have to, doesn't make sense anymore because there is a greater danger.

KAGAN: Arianna, let me just jump in here real quickly because we're seeing two things. We're seeing your lovely face, of course, but we're also seeing on the screen what people are facing as they go through with these shoe checks.

They go through security and get down to their bare feet there, all an effort to get on an airplane and get there safely. Let's have Al jump in here from our audience, and John I will get to you in just a moment, but Al has something to say.

AL: I heard something pretty frightening. I heard this guy looked like a terrorist. What does a terrorist look like? I'm curious. I mean that scares me. It sounds a little bit like profiling, racially.

KAGAN: Jake, I got to give you a chance to respond to that one.

TAPPER: Well, I hate to say it, but this is a time of war and look, the individuals who are targeting the United States are largely Muslim, from Arab countries. This individual's from Britain, although originally supposedly he's from Kuwait.

But these are the individuals, I mean you have a point. There shouldn't be a knee-jerk suspicion of Muslims and Arabs. Obviously, most, the vast majority of Muslims and Arabs are peace-loving people.

KAGAN: So Jake...

TAPPER: On an airplane, if you have a single male who is Muslim. He is from an Arab country. He's traveling by himself. He has no baggage. There are warning flags, and the reason El Al doesn't have hijackings and it's because they do do a bit of racial profiling, and it's sad to say but it's a way to prevent it.

KAGAN: And on that note, Jake, I want you and our panel to meet somebody in our audience, because this might give you a different idea of racial profiling.

Kasan, tell us what you were telling us before the show about your flying experience and why you might have been concerned that you might have been racially profiled?

KASAN: One of the reasons was because I'm a Muslim by religion. So that was one of the reasons I was worried that I would be singled out for profiling.

But I flew in from Hartford, Connecticut, so it's a relatively small airport. So I didn't have a tough time. But my question is, like I'm a little concerned, if you look at all the attacks that have been happening...

KAGAN: Wait, before we get to your question, I also want you to bring across your point you were sharing with our audience before. So here you're somebody who could have been racially profiled, and you said you, yourself, were looking around for single guys who were flying by themselves because you might have been concerned.

KASAN: That is true. That is correct, because I'm flying with my wife here and if you look at the events that have happened, it's mostly guys who do not -- I mean they do not -- they're obviously not flying with their families. They're flying alone, and so that was the reason I was looking out for single guys, anybody who doesn't, you know, look like he likes life a lot if that's how I can put it.

KAGAN: So it can work both ways, OK. Now go ahead and ask your question to the panel.

KASAN: Yes, my question was like if you see all the attacks that have happened, it's always been like United Airways and American, so there seems to be a pattern here. Are we even looking at that, because the whole attack theme is supposed to be against like, where's like United and American, and even the attack that happened yesterday that was tried was against American? So it should be that much easier to focus on these airlines, if this is what the people are targeting.

KAGAN: Kasan also shared with us he's flying American Airlines. That didn't make him too pleased either. John, let's get you in here, because we haven't heard from you yet.

JOHN FUND, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, I think it's very important that we don't focus all of our intentions on something, because I suspect the terrorists would then move on to something else.

I do think, though, that we have to recognize that we can't do El Al's security procedures. They have 40 flights a day. We have 4,000 flights a day in this country. If they don't like someone on a plane, they will just yank him off. We can't quite do that, and the airlines would be subject to lawsuits.

KAGAN: Can't do that but can't the airlines do a lot more than they're doing?

FUND: Well, yes, but remember in Paris there was a system-wide failure here. It was not just American Airlines. It was the French border police and the security forces at the French airport.

So, yes we have to be much more vigilant and much more crucial. But we also can not let this crisis destroy our entire civil aviation system, because so much of our economy depends on it.

People have to take individual responsibility. They have to first be willing to fly, because any flying is much safer than driving on the highways I assure you. And, they also have to be alert and as these passengers were on this plane, they did alert the stewardesses and they did respond.

So yes, we have to have vigilant security, but we also have to look out individually and take personal responsibility.

HUFFINGTON: Well, I...

KAGAN: Arianna, hold on. I think it's safe to say this holiday, almost everybody is flying or has a relative that is flying to see them, and somebody that they're worried about.

We're going to talk more about it. A lot of interest here in this audience, also at home, and of course with our panel.

More also with Mary Schiavo. More questions. Right now, a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We continue to talk about aviation security. Do you feel safe going where you're going, or are you waiting by, waiting for relatives to arrive safely?

We continue our conversation and Karun (ph), I believe, has a question for Mary Schiavo.

KARUN: Hi, Mary, my question is the French security sources have said that the kind of explosives this guy was carrying, that won't actually be detected by the x-ray machines, and they are saying that they need to use sniffer dogs to actually check for this kind of explosive. What is your comment on that as to what can be deployed in this country to avoid such a situation?

SCHIAVO: Well that's exactly right and the same situation here. Now, our CTX-5000 and higher machines could detect it, but we use those largely for screening luggage, some carry-ons in a few airports.

We also have the equipment that the screeners rub a piece of gauze over hand-carried items and then put that in an analyzer. But if this person did not have any luggage and did not have any hand- carry items that he had touched with hands that had touched explosives, there is no way the metal detector that he walked through could pick it up.

And, unfortunately, that's the same exact same situation we have here and at this juncture, literally the best we have would be low- tech, would be dogs or actually physical searches of the person.

KAGAN: And is that a cost or a time problem in using the dogs? Or just even availability? There aren't enough dogs in the country to do that kind of a job?

SCHIAVO: Well there aren't enough dogs right now. The cost versus the cost of the CTX, obviously every dog has to have a handler as well. But the government made a decision a number of years back that the American public would be disturbed and they would be frightened by dogs in the airport, so we use dogs in the airport. But we largely use them in areas where you don't see them, in the baggage areas, et cetera.

We do have drug dogs climbing over the suitcases in some airports in this country, but they didn't put them up among the passengers. And now we have, you know...

KAGAN: You see M-16s, yes, exactly.

SCHIAVO: ... 19-year-olds with M-16s.

KAGAN: If you want to be disturbed...

SCHIAVO: Talk about frightening.

KAGAN: ... just walk through any kind of airport now.

Jason has a comment and an idea.

JASON: I think regardless of the solution, whatever you do to increase security, it's going to cost money. So I don't see people talking about -- I mean, with competition driving down the cost of air fare, I mean, maybe it should be that we pay more for air fare to increase security, because it's not going to happen overnight, and it is going to require revenue to get it done.

KAGAN: Our audience would agree with that earlier. You guys will have to clap when you hear something you like.

TAPPER: You know what this...

KAGAN: OK, there you go.

Go ahead.

TAPPER: I was just going to say...

KAGAN: Safety.

TAPPER: ... I'm amazed that there hasn't been an airline that's realized that there is a vast opportunity...

KAGAN: A marketing opportunity.

TAPPER: Yes, that this is -- the American people...

KAGAN: Buy our tickets, they're more expensive.

TAPPER: ... I'm willing to pay $100, $200 more a ticket for a flight, you know, an international flight or whatever if I know that this airline takes security more seriously than, say, American Airlines does. And I'm amazed that no airline has realized that there is a niche market for this sort of thing.

KAGAN: Well, Mary, help us with the price tag here. How much money are we talking about? How much would it really cost per ticket to make things safer?

SCHIAVO: Well, probably in the neighborhood of the things that we're talking about, not $5 a trip but in the neighborhood of $20 and possibly even higher per trip. But remember, the airlines, and American Airlines led the pack, opposed even a dollar. They said any dollars on the ticket and any delays cost them passengers and cost them revenue.

But I think they did some figuring to put two air marshals on every flight. I think it would be something like adding another $5 to the ticket. So everything adds up. But the most important thing to remember is the system that Europe has, Congress just gave us. We're going to have federalized police doing the security, but airlines still doing their profiling in lieu of 100 percent bag-to-passenger check.

KAGAN: And I sense you don't like that idea...

SCHIAVO: So we've got (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: ... Mary.

SCHIAVO: Well, I think that it was a big mistake. I think we had to federalize security. It was our only option at this point. We have failed miserably. But by letting the airlines completely off the hook, as the other gentleman said, they are no longer accountable. They are not held responsible for these horrible lapses.

Two airlines have been doing it differently. JetBlue has announced 100 percent bag-to-passenger matches and more searches, and Southwest Airlines has been searching shoes since September 12 or 13.

KAGAN: Let's get Rodney in here...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But also (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: Hold on, let me get Rodney in here.

RODNEY: I just think that contradicts some of the things that have happened already as far as the layoffs. I find it just for ticketing alone that it takes awhile for us just to get ticketed. And now to pay more for extra security, I don't know where the payback is. What are we going to get for an extra $100 or $200 a ticket?

TAPPER: Your life.

KAGAN: There you go.

TAPPER: You know? I mean, this is a serious business we're talking about.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's -- that's...

TAPPER: And this -- they're trying -- the instructions came down from Osama bin Laden to take Americans out, take Americans and British people out because of the war. And this is what we're talking -- this is...

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: ... let me get John in here, hold on, I want to get John in here, because we're talking money and we have a guy from "The Wall Street Journal." So let's talk about money and economics and the business of aviation. Is this something practical? Can they hike the prices but still keep the American public flying?

FUND: Yes, to a point. But at some point we're also going to see airlines go bankrupt. We have to recognize that a determined terrorist is probably going to try something completely different the next time.

I'll tell you what security people are worried about most, those Stingers that we left in Afghanistan, some of those are still out there. They are worried that an American flag airline carrier in some other country, Latin America or Asia, might be downed by one of those Stingers, like we sometimes feared that that would happen, that the flight out of JFK, but it turned out it didn't.

So that's what we -- we have to listen and worry about lots of other things. And we also have to recognize, again, we cannot have military-style security, because it will shut down our entire commercial aviation industry. We have to take reasonable precautions, but we cannot have a 100 percent guarantee. That's why people have to be vigilant and responsible and look out for things on their own (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KAGAN: Well, and that's one thing that did go right this weekend aboard that flight from Paris.

Let's get Agnes in here. Agnes, you must have flown, because your name tag says you're from New York.

AGNES: Yes, Buffalo, New York. I think if the airlines are consistent with the things that work, without raising the prices, they will be more effective, because some airlines -- I understand that some of them have been taking the shoes and boots off since September. Maybe more airlines should do that. I know it's going to take a little bit longer, but we'll get to the airport on time, I mean, sooner, and it doesn't matter with me how long it takes, just so everybody's safe. That's the bottom line.

KAGAN: Arianna, why -- oh, our audience agrees with Agnes there. Arianna, let's hear from you.

HUFFINGTON: Yes, we see a real difference between the way that the war is being conducted in Afghanistan and the way the war is being conducted domestically. There is a very lackadaisical attitude. We passed this bill, but here we have, right after the bill was passed, you had the transportation secretary saying that in fact many of the bill's provisions were meaningless because they could never succeed in checking all the baggage during the two months that was the allotted time in the bill.

So we have this attitude that lacks a sense of urgency, that lacks what Winston Churchill had during the Second World War, which was action today. Certain things can be done the way they are being done so successfully abroad but not at home.

And we have to keep going back to that bailout package. We gave $15 billion to the airline industry, and that did not prevent any layoffs... KAGAN: And then we hear John Fund saying...

HUFFINGTON: ... not even (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: ... they're all going bankrupt. So how does that work, John?

(CROSSTALK)

FUND: ... what -- the danger, the danger is, we have -- airline traffic has fallen about 20 or 25 percent, and that puts the airlines on the edge. Yes, the bailout was there, and frankly, I would have opposed it. However, it's there, and the airlines are now in a serious financial crunch all over again. That's why one bailout can -- is always the danger of leading to another one.

But the point here is, we have to recognize that this kind of security can only go so far, because we cannot have El Al-style security. And one of the things we need to recognize, Arianna, is, it takes four or five months to build one of these machines. And we cannot do it in the time that Congress said. We should start building them, but there is no practical way we can do it.

HUFFINGTON: But then...

FUND: We have to have stopgap measures until those machines are built.

HUFFINGTON: John, why are we passing a bill that is meaningless? What kind of...

FUND: Because Congress often does stupid things.

HUFFINGTON: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- I know it...

FUND: You've written about that.

HUFFINGTON: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: And it took them forever even to pass that bill. Do you remember how long it took for them to pass that? It was a couple months past September 11.

HUFFINGTON: Right, but the point is that we should be passing something that is invalid the day it is passed, because it does not engender trust in the American people, We should pass only what we believe we can do.

KAGAN: OK, let's get Eric in here. Eric?

ERIC: The best security are Southwest and JetBlue, two tried- and-true low-fare carriers.

KAGAN: Well, how about that? Our guests want to -- so we're talking about how it's supposed to cost more money, but here we are pointing out that Southwest and JetBlue doing a great job... SCHIAVO: That's right.

KAGAN: ... and they're getting people there cheaply and safely. Mary, how does that work? That doesn't seem to add up.

SCHIAVO: Well, and the very important thing to notice, first of all, the airline bailout bill, the Stabilization and Security Bill, was written in large part by lobbyists for the airlines. One senator told me that he was hit on September 11 by lobbyists for the airlines. So the airlines bear the responsibility for at least part of this bill that is really now impossible to perform. But Southwest Airlines would not take the bailout, they said they were going to do it on their own, and JetBlue.

And usually that's what we see. We see innovations from carriers that are being held and being accountable to their passengers. And frankly, in this environment -- now, I'm not an economist, but I'm an air -- aviation person -- there are some carriers that deserve to go. Pan Am, the older Pan Am, I know, I know there's a resurrected one -- but the old Pan Am 103 deserved to be gone, because it had so many terrorist attacks. It even lied about the dogs it had. It said it had secure, security dogs and bomb dogs. It got them out of the kennel.

You cannot lie to your passengers and expect them to stay. And frankly, those that can afford to are getting off a private jet service.

KAGAN: All right, I want to get more comments from our audience here. Sundar (ph), go ahead.

SUNDAR: Yes, I disagree with John that because he said that we cannot run a military operation. I think temporarily they should. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it's like, you know, enough already, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we won't make it alive, you know? That's -- whatever security takes, we should do it.

KAGAN: Panel?

No, hold on, with Jim, Jim...

HUFFINGTON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: No, hold on, let me get Jim in here. Jim's really tall. Jim gets -- so Jim gets to say what he wants.

JIM: Well, I just -- I'd like to ask the question that I think a lot of these people -- I work in the aviation industry...

KAGAN: What do you do? Can you share with us what you do?

JIM: I'm a line manager for Columbus Airport in Columbus, Indiana, is what I do. You know, speaking of airlines, the government has to come along and bail out the airlines, but what a lot of people probably don't realize, there was billions of dollars made by the airlines through fuel surcharges when fuel was running at high prices. And a lot of those airlines, when the fuel prices dropped back, did not stop collecting those surcharges.

So what happened to all of that? And it's very strange to see big airlines like American and all these people all of a sudden, since September 11, they're bankrupt. So they couldn't promise any security no matter what. They didn't have any money...

FUND: Well, one of the...

JIM: ... to provide any at all.

FUND: Well, I agree with Mary that innovative carriers are going to probably be leading the pack here, and we certainly should let some airlines go if they don't pay attention to customers and to pay attention to security. But let's be clear about the airline industry. It has (UNINTELLIGIBLE) boom and bust cycles. It was losing money before September 11. These are not carriers that make a large amount of money. In a good year, they'll make 2 percent on the dollar profit, 2 percent.

So we are not talking about people that literally can take a complete collapse of our commercial aviation industry if we make people wait three or four hours in line. We need to take security precautions that both satisfy the public's perception of the need for security and also take care of the worst risks. But we cannot cover every risk.

KAGAN: A topic we could talk about all day long. Want to thank our audience for that. A quick time out. Mary Schiavo, thank you so much, answering a lot of questions...

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

KAGAN: ... for people in our audience. Happy holidays for you.

Up next, start spreading this news.

Coming up...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Person of the year?

MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK CITY: I feel that this award is intended for all of the people of New York who defended the spirit of America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he deserves it, but I haven't always been a Mayor Giuliani fan, so I can't actually say that, you know, I'm cool with it.

KAGAN: Man of the hour or man of the year?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

Coming up on the new year, and for a couple of weeks, there's been plenty of speculation that Osama bin Laden would be "Time" magazine's Person of the Year. Not a good guy award, the cover generally goes to the person that most affected the news. But bin Laden's on the run, and "Time" says that actually New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani will be their Person of the Year. Getting a look, probably many of you, the cover that you'll see on your newsstand.

Is this a good choice? Or did "Time" magazine cop out on this one?

Jake Tapper, what do you think? I mean, you can't argue with what a great job Mayor Giuliani did. But Person of the Year?

TAPPER: You can't argue,, Mayor Giuliani did a great job, obviously. But no, this is the biggest cop-out. This is cop-out of the year. I mean, "Time" magazine was under intense pressure from advertisers and from some subscribers to not pick bin Laden, as if Man of the Year or Person of the Year goes to the guy we like the best, which it does not. It goes to -- it has gone to Adolf Hitler, it went to Josef Stalin twice, it went to the Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979...

KAGAN: Yes, Jake, let me just jump in here, just on that point. We were talking about this with our audience before, and we asked the audience, and you guys can respond now, if Osama bin Laden had been "Time" magazine's Person of the Year, how many people, perfectly, would not buy the magazine?

You can clap so that -- if people can't see you.

This is what "Time" mag (UNINTELLIGIBLE) half of our audience, Jake, they're saying, You know what? You pick Osama bin Laden, you can keep your magazine.

TAPPER: Well, that's -- and that's fine. But then "Time" magazine should not claim that this is an exercise in journalism, they should claim that this is -- you know, that goes to the person that made us feel best.

Maybe it should go to Julia Roberts for being America's sweetheart, or Jay Leno for teaching us how to smile again.

KAGAN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I want to go, actually, we can go to the streets of New York City and find out what some folks are thinking about this. Kelly is joining us, and she's been patiently standing by. Kelly, thank you. Tell us what you think about your mayor being named Person of the Year by "Time" magazine.

KELLY: Well, I think Giuliani is a wonderful mayor. I think he did a lot for the city, he did a lot for the people. I'm not afraid to come into the city any more with my son and my family. I don't know if he deserves Person of the Year, but he does definitely deserve a lot of recognition for what he has done for the city and for the country. He brought a lot of people together. He kept us together.

KAGAN: Kelly, thank you very much.

We had a representative of "Time" magazine on our air earlier today, and we're going to pull a sound bite for you so you can hear how they can explain why Osama bin Laden, in their mind, was in fact not their Person of the Year. Let's look into that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC POOLEY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: This is a terrorist who happens to have a lot of money and a good organization behind him. But right now it looks like what he did on September 11 may have been a lucky punch, and it also looks like, you know, he's a guy who's fleeing for his life, hiding in caves, maybe dead underneath rubble. Is that the most important figure of the year, somebody who's cowering for his life or maybe even dead?

You know, it's just not the -- you know, the large enough character to be "Time"'s man of the year for 2001.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Arianna, how does that wash with you? Oh, some people liked that from "Time" magazine.

HUFFINGTON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: But how does that wash with you?

HUFFINGTON: I (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: Does that make sense to you?

HUFFINGTON: I agree with Eric. You know, I rarely disagree with Jake, but I do this time. I don't think that this is a cop-out for "Time" at all. I don't think that Osama bin Laden has earned the sort of stature of evil that Adolf Hitler had earned, and on top of it, I think it demonstrates a kind of yearning for leadership. Giuliani exemplified that leadership. And...

KAGAN: No one's arguing with the...

HUFFINGTON: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: ... great job that he did, Arianna. But without the act of Osama bin Laden, the events of September 11 don't happen. In fact, September 11 then just turns into primary day in New York City, and Rudy Giuliani just kind of goes off into the sunset as another mayor of New York City who ended with a lot of bad divorce coverage in the papers.

HUFFINGTON: Well, I think what you mention about his divorce coverage is also very interesting, because it shows that anybody can recover. I mean, three months ago Giuliani's stock was falling faster than the Nasdaq. I mean, you had his lawyer trying to prove he had not committed adultery because he had been impotent after prostate cancer. I mean, we had a major dimming of his stock, and yet he rose to the occasion the way leaders often do, the way even Winston Churchill did, beyond his earlier life and his earlier performance.

So I don't think this is a cop-out. I think it's a really good choice, and let's celebrate it.

KAGAN: Vicki (ph) has a different opinion. Vicki, you go.

VICKI: Just what Jake was saying, I agree with his thoughts. I basically have said the same thing, that "Time" magazine did sell out, that if it wasn't for bin Laden, then Giuliani wouldn't have got the recognition. And I think "Time" sold out because he was -- the advertisers had threatened to pull out of the magazine.

KAGAN: And we go back to the streets of New York. This time it's Joe who's standing by to give his opinion. Joe, what do you think, Mayor Giuliani, Person of the Year?

JOE: I think it was a good choice. I think that -- I know that bin Laden was one of the choices, but I think that it was more of the reaction of how the city reacted, and how the city came together, and they needed a leader to do it. And I think it was important that they chose somebody that was able to react well, and Giuliani did a fantastic job.

KAGAN: And now to our audience. Here's Solomon. What do you think?

SOLOMON: Well, a year ago at this time, Osama bin Laden was the number one terrorist on the FBI's most-wanted list, and, you know, after the September 11 attacks, we're going to consider the guy for the man of the year? I think that that speaks a lot to our need and our gravitating towards men and leaders who are going to have a impact on the world in a positive way and not even considering someone like Osama bin Laden, who was a mastermind behind such a devious attack.

KAGAN: John...

(CROSSTALK)

KAGAN: ... wait, let's (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You can say over and over again that it's not an honor. But at the end of the day, a lot of people think to be on the cover of "Time" magazine and to get that kind of recognition is an honor.

FUND: Well, Daryn, look, we're treating this as if it's the Nobel Peace Prize. It's not. When "Time" magazine started this in 1923, it was a commercial venture. They had a slow news period between Christmas and New Year's, and they decided that this would sell some magazines.

Now, it's been -- had all kinds of journalistic significance attached to it, but ultimately it was a commercial venture. And I understand, although as a journalist I wish they had gone in a different direction, I can understand commercially they were looking at enormous losses.

KAGAN: Well, on that note, though... FUND: Companies have to survive.

KAGAN: ... look at the pub that "Time" magazine's gotten out of this. For two weeks before, we talked about, Would they do it? And now it's going to be the week, after, and we're talking about, Why did they do it?

FUND: Mission accomplished.

KAGAN: Three weeks of P.R.

FUND: Mission accomplished.

TAPPER: But Daryn, the larger and -- the larger issue here is the fact that, as the gentleman in the audience pointed out, Osama bin Laden has been killing Americans for years, and there is a tendency in this country to want to go back to normal, to want to talk about the Rudy Giulianis of the world instead of facing what we need to face.

This is not a run-of-the-mill terrorist who got a lucky punch. This is a very serious and evil man with a lot of money and thousands of followers all over the world. The recognition of his evil -- I understand, this is just a magazine, and who cares? But the recognition of his evil is important for us to do as a society, because if we just want to talk about the good things...

KAGAN: So you're saying, Put him on the cover?

TAPPER: ... I fear that we'll get complacent. I fear we'll get complacent.

KAGAN: But...

HUFFINGTON: But also, Jake, it would be absurd to think that either Osama is dead, or if he's going to be dead soon, this is going to eliminate the dangers we're facing from all the forces that he has organized. There are many, many others in the al Qaeda network and beyond who are equally evil and equally determined.

So to personalize him that way in the same way that the media is personalizing it now by obsessing about capturing bin Laden, is also to ignore the larger threat we are facing.

KAGAN: Arianna, let me let Marvin jump in here before we go to break. Marvin, it's yours.

MARVIN: OK, well, being from Texas, I may be prejudiced, and I always thought of "Time" magazine as being an American magazine. And I think the man of the year should be George W. Bush. He really is one more...

FUND: He was last year.

MARVIN: Giuliani did a lot of -- to -- good leadership in New York, but the guy who had to make the decisions, the guy who stood up, the guy who had the guts, the guy who's influenced this country for the best, was George W. Bush.

KAGAN: And on that note-...

FUND: But Bush was selected last year.

KAGAN: ... we're going to have to -- we're going -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he can't do two years in a row? I don't think so.

FUND: It's never been done.

KAGAN: Well, never say never.

We're going to take a break, and we'll come back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

It's Christmas Eve, and as kids wait for Santa and churches prepare for the services, does the holiday feel a little bit different this year? We are going to check in with our panel.

Actually, you know what? Before we do that, I want to get in a comment about Muhammad Ali, the question as to whether he should be doing these PSAs, Hollywood has asked him to do PSAs that will be played throughout the Muslim world talking about how America is fighting a good cause and not fighting against Islam, but actually fighting against the terrorists of the world.

We have some comments in our audience we want to get in. Anthony, go ahead.

ANTHONY: Yes. What I said during the break is that it's funny that America has ridiculed Muhammad Ali 30 years ago, now they're asking him to represent them in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for a public service announcement, which sends a conflicted message to the people that's watching it from Islam and the people that's trying to be nice. America always criticized Muhammad Ali, I mean, Louis Farrakhan and all the guys who wanted to promote Islam a better way.

I think it's just a disgrace, because now we have to get these people that we beat down, put in jail, now get them back on television and say, Hey, this is what we do in America, and it's not going to work, because (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

KAGAN: Let's go to our panel.

FUND: But Muhammad Ali doesn't feel that way. Muhammad Ali says Islam is a nation of peace. He also says, Look, I opposed the Vietnam War 345 years ago, I paid the price. And I think he is doing exactly what an American does, which is stand up and believe in what he's -- in what his principles are, whether they were against the Vietnam War, not then, or whether they're for this war now.

KAGAN: Arianna, do you think it's a good idea for Muhammad Ali? HUFFINGTON: Absolutely. I don't see any downside at all. I think we should enlist everybody who has any kind of platform in the Muslim world to do PSAs, to do whatever to get our message out.

KAGAN: The final minute that we have together, I'd just like to get some final thoughts, about 10 to 15 seconds, from each of our guests about why this holiday season is going to be different for you in light of all the events.

Jake, let's start with you.

TAPPER: It's obviously just a time that I think we are taking an assessment of our family. And you know, six months ago, a lot of us were talking about this obscure congressman and a missing girl, and the media, I think, was going down a really bad direction. And now I think not only the media but the country, maybe, because of what -- the horrors of September 11, maybe we appreciate things a little bit more. I know I do anyway.

KAGAN: John, a thought from you?

FUND: I -- my office was cross the street from the World Trade Center that day. I was there, I saw things I never want to see again. I appreciate family, friends, and colleagues and the blessings we all have far more than ever before, and I hope we all do.

KAGAN: And Arianna from California.

HUFFINGTON: I agree. I think this holiday is more precious and more special than any other, and I certainly intend to have my daughters closer than ever and keep my friends and family closer than ever.

KAGAN: And we send hugs to all of you, and also especially once again, many thanks, coming on the holiday. We do appreciate you going away from your family and your friends to spend the afternoon with us.

Also, to all of you here in the audience and to those of you at home, want to say a special happy holiday. Merry Christmas. I'll see you at 7:00 a.m. Eastern tomorrow morning. I'll be right here. I'm Daryn Kagan. Have a great holiday.

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