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CNN Talkback Live
Guests Discuss Latest Bin Laden Video
Aired December 27, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QAEDA LEADER (through translator): They condemn terror. We say our terror against America is blessed terror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DARYN KAGAN, HOST: Are there hidden messages in the latest bin Laden tape?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. KELLY MCCANN, CEO, CRUCIBLE SECURITY: People are looking for patterns and people are looking for how he gesticulating, the way his hand is turned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is telling the American that he is somewhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Also, yanked off of a flight: Was a Secret Service agent for President Bush profiled?
And, leaving on a high note.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, MAYOR, NEW YORK CITY: When I -- when I became mayor of New York City, it seemed to me that what I had to do was to totally change the direction and course of New York City.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: He made it here. Can he make it anywhere?
Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out". Great to have you with us, two days past Christmas, working our way toward the new year. Hello everyone, I'm Daryn Kagan, starting today with the new tape from Osama bin Laden. There's another new videotape out. Perhaps you have seen some snippets here on CNN. Another translated message to his followers, accusing the West of hating Islam and calling the 9/11 attacks a blessed terror. Let's listen to a bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN (through translator): I'm just a poor slave of God. If I die or live, if I live or die, the war will continue. We pray for God to accept these people who committed -- who carried out the attacks. They have done a great deed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Well, we've just played snippets and sound bites here on CNN. That's how we have chosen to handle that tape. But Al-Jazeera, that is the network that received the tape recently -- In fact, within the last hour, as I understand it, has played the tape in its entirety, 34 minutes.
Ibrahim Helal is chief editor of Al-Jazeera. He is joining us now by phone from Dohar to talk more are about this latest bin Laden tape. Mr. Helal, thank you for joining us.
Can you hear us?
IBRAHIM HELAL, CHIEF EDITOR, AL-JAZEERA: Hello.
KAGAN: Hello, can you hear us? It's Daryn Kagan in Atlanta.
HELAL: Hi.
KAGAN: Hi. Can you, first of all, tell us how did you get the tape?
HELAL: We received -- every day we receive some -- so many tapes through normal post and carrier post. And we -- since the anthrax thing started, we assigned some people to open these envelopes and to categorize these tapes. And five or four days ago, I don't remember now exactly, we got this -- some tapes from Pakistan and some tapes from Washington and some tapes from Cairo. And we categorized these tapes. And, actually, unfortunately, we destroyed the envelopes. And after that, we discovered that we had a HI-8 -- actually not HI-8 -- Video-8 tape, which is old-fashioned. It's not HI-8. It's not even HI-8.
We tried a lot to run it in our machines in the studios, but we couldn't find the proper machines. That's why it took us two days to find where can we get the proper camera, the Video-8 camera. And when we run it, we discovered that it was Osama bin Laden tape.
KAGAN: So, just as I understand it, this tape is on a different format than the previous Osama bin Laden tapes and it also came in a different manner, was delivered in a different way than the previous tapes, is that right? HELAL: Yes. Yes. And it reflected the new situation al Qaeda is living now. They are living in caves. They cannot have the sophisticated machines that they had before. And they cannot deliver tapes through offices in Kabul or Kandahar like before. They have now their own agents in the area in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and they are filming with very small cameras, like the Video-8 cameras. So it's affected the situation that they are living now.
KAGAN: And because you were not expecting to receive a tape in this way, that's why the envelope was destroyed. And now you can't go back and look for clues as to the path this tape might have taken to get to your network.
HELAL: Yes. Usually, we receive tens of tapes every day. And if we keep all envelopes, we cannot find a place to arrange these tapes. And most of the tapes were labeled. But, unfortunately, this tape was just a small and unclean -- very old tape. That's why we didn't -- we didn't think that it -- very important. And it took us two days to discover the reformat because it was not clear whether it was HI-8 or Video-8. And when we found the proper machine, we discovered the real importance of it.
KAGAN: Mr. Helal, explain to me your decision to play the entire tape, which I understand you did just within the last couple of hours. You know, here at CNN, we choose just to show snippets and part of it because we don't want to feel like we were propagating -- we're spreading the propaganda of Osama bin Laden. Why does your network choose to play the entire tape?
HELAL: When we reviewed the whole tape, actually, you will find that bin Laden this time looked like a person about to admit that he was really behind the attacks in New York and Washington.
KAGAN: What was it in the tape that made you think that he was about to admit that?
HELAL: Because he praised the people that did it. And he mentioned the names of these people. He mentioned the places they came from, even the places inside Saudi Arabia, like -- he looked like a man knew them quite good even years before. And he was like -- he looked like a man -- knew them personally. And he praised the way they trained themselves inside America, not inside the camps outside America.
KAGAN: So by doing that, sir -- by doing that, what do you think is achieved by playing this entire tape, by giving him 34 minutes of time on your network? What do achieve for your audience?
HELAL: Yes, most of the 35 minutes are against him, actually. Most of the speech is proving that he is really the mastermind of these attacks. That's why we found that we -- we -- we can say that if we edit part of this interview, we will not give the American people the real clue, actually, against Osama bin Laden. That's why we had to run the whole thing because to prove he is really behind these attacks is you cannot find it directly. You'll find it inside his words. In some parts, he say our terrorism is a good terrorism. This is another proof that he has -- his own terrorism.
KAGAN: So, you stand by your decision to play the entire tape? If you get more tapes from Osama bin Laden, will you just play them in their entirety, or will you review it case by case?
HELAL: Of course, we have to review the whole tape and we will decide on each case actually.
KAGAN: Ibrahim Helal, the Al-Jazeera chief editor. Sir, thank you for joining us by the phone. We do appreciate your time.
As I said, we at CNN have decided not to show the entire tape. We don't think that that serves the purposes of just giving Osama bin Laden 34 minutes of time on CNN. But we do have snippets to show you. Here's another one from the tape that's playing today. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN: The events of the 11th of September is just a reaction to the continuance (UNINTELLIGIBLE) injustice against our children, our sons in Palestine, in Iraq, in Somalia, in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Sudan, in Kashmir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: All right. That's another little snippet. We are going to find out more about what's on the tape. Let's bring in Peter Bergen, freelance journalist and CNN terrorism analyst. He's also the author of "Holy War, Inc." about Osama bin Laden and Islamic militant groups. Also, retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Bob Maginnis. He is currently the vice president for policy at the Family Research Council. Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.
RETIRED LIEUTENANT COLONEL BOB MAGINNIS, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Thank you.
KAGAN: Peter, have you been able to see any more of the tape since we had a chance to talk with you early this morning?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Yes, I saw the entire tape.
KAGAN: You have seen it?
BERGEN: And I think the editor of Al-Jazeera is right on point. One of the striking things about the tape is that bin Laden not only says that 15 of the hijackers out of the 19 were from Saudi Arabia, two were from United Arab Emirates, one was from Egypt, he mentions him by name, Mohamed Atta. And then he goes on to specifically name the cities within Saudi Arabia that some of the hijackers came from, Mecca, Medina. He mentions Hijaz, the Nej (ph) region, awfully specific references to the hijackers which I think goes a very long way, as if we needed any extra proof to demonstrating that he was somebody who actually had a very sort of almost personal relationship with these people.
KAGAN: And so, Colonel, what do you do you with this extra information?
MAGINNIS: I don't know if you do anything with it, Daryn. Quite frankly, it's an admission that we've already had once before in that tape made in Jalalabad a couple of weeks ago...
BERGEN: Could I interrupt for one second?
KAGAN: Yes. Go ahead, Peter.
BERGEN: I mean, the tape in Jalalabad is extremely significant. But that was an -- that was basically meant for private consumption. Bin Laden never had any idea that that tape would get the circulation it did.
KAGAN: What about this one? You get the feeling that he did have the idea?
BERGEN: Well, this was clearly meant for public consumption. For a start, it was shot in focus. The audio is good.
KAGAN: He is sitting there facing the camera whereas the previous tape, it was kind of just eavesdropping on a conversation.
BERGEN: Absolutely. So it appears that he wants to take -- publicly take credit in a way that we now -- he didn't know that that tape that we saw that was shown -- that was taped on November 9 and shown on December 13 was going to get the circulation that it did.
MAGINNIS: Yes, and that's the key, Peter, that he didn't know. It could be, and we are trying to guess what the timing of this particular tape is, but the tape that was the informal tape which brought everything to light, this one then was released. Now, of course, the rumors, true or false, that he is dead, why would they then release this second tape? Is it going to question the validity of that first tape? I don't think so. I think it reinforces and there may be some messages.
KAGAN: What would you make of the way that it showed up at Al- Jazeera, how that's different, how it just kind of came through the mail?
MAGINNIS: Well, obviously the format, as you brought up, Daryn, is very different. It, perhaps, was shot in a cave. You have that brown background that suggests that, perhaps. But then, through the mail system, someone had to sneak it over the mountains, perhaps, and put it into a mailbox and off it goes. Those -- the objective here is perhaps to make people believe that he is still alive. If he is alive, it perhaps could further spur, you know, radical Islamic beliefs and action. And maybe there are some messages. You know, his arm appears to be not functioning...
KAGAN: Yes, what about that, Peter? What about his left arm? And, as we understand, he is left-handed. His left arm just lays there on his lap and he doesn't move it at all.
BERGEN: I'm not sure exactly what handed he is, but it is striking in this tape that he doesn't move his left arm at all for 35 minutes.
KAGAN: Do you think maybe he's wounded.
BERGEN: It's possible. You know, he walks with the help of a cane. And if you are wandering around the Afghan mountains, it's quite possible that you take a tumble at some point. I'm not sure what to make of it, but the fact is...
KAGAN: Not only to mention other things that could be happened to you in recent months in Afghanistan.
BERGEN: Well, of course. But, you know, it's not clear really what that is about. But I think that the -- it is interesting about -- I think very interesting to talk to the editor and find out that the tape was there for four or five days. And, obviously, there was some security with anthrax fears at Al-Jazeera. So it's taken some time to wind its way from Pakistan to Qatar.
But, as you probably know, on the tape, there are some rather differing -- in terms of the time it was taken. There's a reference to an event on November 16 that's happening just recently and then there's a reference to three months after the Trade Center attacks which would place the taping around mid-December. So it's not clear if the tape was made in late November or mid-December. But either way, bin Laden was alive in late November, it appears.
MAGINNIS: Well, but it also...
KAGAN: Colonel, I am going to ask you to hold that thought for just a second. We need to get a break in here.
One of the topics we'll talk about: Where might Osama bin Laden be and are there any clues on that tape? We want our audience at home to weigh in on this. Where do you think Osama bin Laden is? Go onto cnn.com and answer the question. A cave in Afghanistan, hiding in Pakistan, you think he's dead, or -- like many people around the world -- have no clue.
Stay with us and we will check the results a little bit later on.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, talking about the newest tape from Osama bin Laden. And it's kind of interesting. Right here, a little debate has started over what CNN should do with tape.
As we've mentioned, Al-Jazeera, the network that received the tape, played it in its entirety. CNN, so far, has decided better just to show sound bites from it and not give Osama bin Laden 34 minutes of our air. But, apparently, that has some different opinions. Wheat (ph) here in our audience has one. WHEAT: ... should be showing the whole part of the tape because I personally want to know the whole truth. I personally want to know comments from this man because this man is a determined factor in the rest of the future. So why hold back? Are we afraid to have the truth exposed, because listen, this is not a game. Tell the truth.
KAGAN: Very good. Let's check with our chatroom. Paul from California is monitoring our chatroom. What are the folks at home saying?
PAUL: Mostly in the chatroom, that CNN is -- should show the tape and that they are censoring information. Also that you are giving an hour to bin Laden on TV shows like this, but not showing what he's really saying and how he looks to the public.
KAGAN: Very interesting. Let's take an informal poll -- hold on, let's get one more comment in here. Linda (ph) from Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says we should not show the tape.
LINDA: I think it's giving more credit to bin Laden than necessary and feeding into what he wants to do, get the attention and build up all the forces against the United States.
KAGAN: Giving him too much time. Let's do a quick poll here. How many people think we should show the entire tape here on CNN, 34 minutes?
(APPLAUSE)
How many people think no, deny Osama the time?
(APPLAUSE)
All right. And we will go to the phones and we'll go back to our guests. Mohammed (ph) on the phone, what do you think.
MOHAMMED: My concern is if the terrorists were to get any signal from these tapes, what they would do is go to al-jazeera.net and watch the videotape anyway. Why is it that the only people who are not watching are the American people? Why are the American people being propagated this way? I mean, they are the victims. They are the ones who are not seeing the tape. What is the government trying to hide? The terrorists are going to see it anyway.
KAGAN: Peter, you are the one guy here who can go both ways, and not necessarily asking for an opinion, but having seen the entire tape versus the sound bites that CNN has shown, tell us again or actually elaborate on what you get out of seeing the entire tape rather than just snippets.
BERGEN: Well, Daryn, let me suggest a compromise for this discussion...
KAGAN: OK. BERGEN: ... which is a lot of stuff on the tape is essentially stuff we have heard bin Laden say before, talking about the United States' policies toward Iraq and Palestine. That isn't news. But there is some news on the tape and you actually used some of it at the top. One of the things bin Laden that says, "I'm a poor slave of God. If I live or die, it's not important."
KAGAN: Why is that news?
BERGEN: Well, I think that it's an indication that bin Laden is willing to martyr himself in his struggles. He has made similar kinds of statements before, but I do think that that...
KAGAN: Peter, don't those statements go all the way back to the conflicts with the Soviets, that he has been willing to die for his cause?
BERGEN: Yes, that's true. But I think -- to me, it left out as something that was a rather definitive statement. The other thing I think is, you know, calling for this sort of economic front against the United States, talking about the Trade Center attacks as being devastating to the American economy and urging other attacks on American targets, economic targets. To me, that's also news.
So, I mean, perhaps we can have our cake and eat it too, in a sense. You don't have to be a platform for bin Laden's -- I mean, we have heard him on the subject of Palestine and Iraq ad nauseam. But there are other things in it that I think are interesting and those are the two that leapt out at me.
Also, what we talked about earlier, the fact that he does reference, fairly directly, the hijackers, where they are from, even the names of the cities they are from inside Saudi Arabia.
KAGAN: Colonel, what do you think? It's A free country. We could play 34 minutes of the tape, and if people don't want to watch it they can go watch something else.
MAGINNIS: That's right, Daryn. Every network can do whatever they want. They are a free enterprise capitalism. I certainly think that we have seen more than enough of bin Laden. We know exactly what his message is. He delivered one on 9-11 and he continues to deliver one across this country. We don't need to give him any more opportunity.
I do hope, the fact is, that he is dead in Afghanistan or Pakistan, wherever he is. But we are getting conflicting information on that. I'm concerned that we are going to make this man into a martyr when he is a vicious murderer.
KAGAN: All right, we are going to continue talking about where Osama might be and what condition he might be in as well. We are going to go to a quick break and as we do, Bill gets the final word.
BILL: ... full transcript on the Web, and the full transcript on the Web and to show snippets on the video.
KAGAN: Another compromise. We will work it out. Right now we are going to get a quick break and be back after this.
Coming up: profiled, he looked Mideastern, had a gun and boarded a passenger jet in Baltimore. But did the airline go too far when it booted one of the president's Secret Service agent off the plane?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. It is a very spirited audience here today, especially on the topic of whether or not you show the entire tape. Got a couple quick opinions -- Chris, who do you have?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead.
CHRIS: I think it doesn't make any sense at all to put Osama bin Laden's face anywhere in the media. All it does is give him an air of legitimacy that he is not deserve. He is not a world leader with a different opinion, he is a terrorist and we don't need to anything to give him any legitimacy at all. It's not a matter of the American people hearing the words.
The American people can form their own opinions from what we hear, but it is those that he might insight to do other things that it really doesn't make any sense.
KAGAN: And here is Michael.
MICHAEL: I disagree. I believe that we need to see this gentleman. We need to know what he says. He has affected our life. He is changing the way we live, he has changed our future. Nothing will ever be the same.
I think each and every person has a right to make their own opinion. I know that by seeing that first tape, I believe that he was behind this. He is responsible. And this is really for my opinion. And I think I should have the right to see what he says.
KAGAN: Who agrees with Michael?
(APPLAUSE)
Let's talk more about what actually is on that tape. Peter, any clues as to where that tape might have been done or where Osama might be? BERGEN: No.
KAGAN: He has that cloth behind him this time this time. It seems different. You cant tell if he is in a cave or where he is.
BERGEN: I think that's intentional, because remember the tape that was shown on October 7th, he was on a geological rocky outcrop and American geologists were able to identify roughly which area of eastern Afghanistan he was in. So, I think clearly, in the last two -- there it is with the rocky out crop. That was identified as being in, I believe, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) province in eastern Afghanistan. So, I think Bin Laden is not taking any chances and the last couple of these we have seen, there has been a kind of anonymous back drop, which would prevent IDing the kind of terrain he is in.
KAGAN: All right, we are going to expand our conversation. Joining us now is Abdel Bari Atwan, editor-in-chief of the London- based Al-Quds Newpaper. He has interviewed bin Laden. Al-Quds is a Palestinian-based Arabic paper, and Abdel, I understand you were a little bit late here because you are actually working with Al Jazeera to do some commentary for them, and then you actually have seen the entire tape yourself as well?
ABDEL BARI ATWAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, AL-QUDS: Yes, I was commenting on the tapes and explaining what is new in it, how significant it is, how is the reaction in the Arab world. I don't know whether you discussed these kind of things...
KAGAN: We did bet we would love to get your -- we were talking exactly about those points. We would love to get your take. What did you see new in it by watching the whole 34 minutes?
ATWAN: Actually many things. First, you know, he is using the same speech, the same words, and he looked actually defiant, this is one thing.
The second thing, his left arm was completely frozen, so I'm not surprised if he is injured during one of these bombing of Tora Bora or places because, I was gazing all the time to see whether he will remove his left arm or not or left shoulder or not, it was absolutely frozen. This is unusual for Arab people because usually Arab people, in the Middle East, we use our hands, both hands, when we talk, when we speak.
The third observation actually, he was alone. He wasn't surrounded by his commanders. I mean military expertise like Ayman al-Zawahiri and Mohammed Atta. So, and those are the spokesman of al Qaeda, who is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) , so whether they were injured, whether they were killed, whether he is in a different place, because usually they are together.
In the previous tapes with al Jazeera, all of them were in the same room.
The fourth observation, he used the same blanket as a background, the same blanked he used when Hamid Meri (ph), the Pakistani last actually journalist who interviewed him. So, it seems -- it seems he has the same blanket and he wants to disguise his place. He doesn't want anybody to tell where he is.
KAGAN: Hold on second. We will talk more about Osama's security blank in just a moment, but first I want to say thank you to Peter Bergen our CNN terrorism analyst. He has to run, he has been working hard for us all day, so Peter, thank you for your time, good to see you as well.
BERGEN: Thank you.
KAGAN: You are now excused. Thank you very much.
Abdel, more about this blanket. What's significant about that? It just looks like a big old dirty brown blanket to me.
ATWAN: Yes, because, you know, this is -- as a background, Osama bin Laden is an expert as you know, of camouflage, using the camouflage, misleading expert, you know, the intelligence service. He doesn't want anybody to tell where he is. So, that's what I meant. Nothing significant in that blanket. It is like, maybe a cheap blanket, to be honest.
KAGAN: Perhaps.
ATWAN: But the other things, you know, also, he was talking about the bomb, you know the daisy-cutter bomb in a very bitter way. So, it seems that these kind of bombs were actually extremely effective when it was used in Tora Bora and the caves there.
Incidentally, when I interviewed him, I interviewed him in Tora Bora and in one of these caves on the White Mountain as they call it there. He was -- also, if you look at face, it seems he hasn't seen the sun for a long time.
KAGAN: It doesn't look so good either.
He has looked better in the past.
ATWAN: And also, he lost a lot of weight. And so, this is, you know, a really significant -- again, actually his left arm is significant here because it was absolutely frozen.
KAGAN: Let me bounce a couple other points off you that Peter Bergen was pointing out because he too has seen the entire tape. He thought it was significant and newsworthy that Osama bin Laden names about 15 of the of the 19 hijackers that there were so many with Saudi roots. Did you take that as well?
ATWAN: Yes, definitely. He concentrated on Saudi Arabia. He even named their -- you know education, he named their tribes. He named the regions where they came from. He praised them, he considered them martyrs and he also said that more of those people will, in the future will participate in attacks, and he actually urged those young chaps, as he called them, to actually attack the economy because he considered the American economy is really a loose one, it is not really a solid one.
So, there are many messages and many indications in that tape, in fact (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
KAGAN: And we also got into a debate, here within the CNN audience as to whether the entire tape should be played on the networks. So far, CNN has chosen just to play sound bites from the tape -- and, of course, Al-Jazeera playing the entire 34 minutes. What will you be doing in your newspaper? Will you print the entire transcript?
ATWAN: You know, actually, this tape is not actually directed to the American audience. It is directed to the Arab audience. So I believe the target is not your audience in the United States or in Europe or something like that. The audience which is targeted is Muslim people, especially in the Arab world, especially in Saudi Arabia, especially in this country, which is -- you know, it means a lot for him.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Shouldn't Americans see that message? Shouldn't they see the message that is being delivered to these people?
ATWAN: I think -- really, I was pleased with your audience when they said, no, we must see it because we must know about these kinds of things, simply because, as I said, there is no harm when the American people watch this tape.
But, you know, if you are you talking about the Arab world, maybe it will have some influence, because the language he used, the verses of Koran, the versus of Hadith, so he is trying to influence people. But I don't believe it will be as strong as the -- I mean, as influential as the three tapes -- or two previous tapes which were aired by Al-Jazeera.
KAGAN: Very interesting.
Abdel Bari Atwan, thank you very for joining us. I know it was brief, but we do appreciate you making the effort to stop by. Also to Colonel Bob McGinnis (ph) and Peter Bergen, who had to leave a little bit early, thanks to all of you for joining us.
Up next: to profile or not to profile? A runway dilemma.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
We move on with our next topic, talking about racial profiling. And did it get one of the presidents -- and we are talking about President Bush's Secret Service guard -- kicked off an American Airlines flight? One of President Bush's security agents was scheduled to travel to Crawford, Texas. You probably know the president is having a vacation out there right now.
The president left a little bit early. So this agent was taking an American Airlines flight to join him. He was leaving from Baltimore heading out to Crawford, Texas. That shouldn't be a problem, correct? Well, wrong. The agent was removed from the flight, asked to undergo further questioning.
And here to fill us in is CNN's Jeanne Meserve.
Jeanne, I guess we should also add that this particular Secret Service agent is of American-Arab descent.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That he is, and is obviously so, has a name that is clearly Arab-American and also an appearance that identifies him as Arab-American. He has been a member of the Secret Service for seven years. For two years, he has been guarding presidents, one year guarding President Clinton, for the past year guarding President Bush. He was on his way, as you mentioned, down to Crawford.
There are different versions of the story, because American Airlines is not putting anyone out publicly to talk about this. Let me tell you what the airline is saying about what happened. When a law enforcement official travels on a commercial flight, he or she is required to fill out paperwork explaining what weapons they are carrying and why they are carrying them. This agent filled out that paperwork. The paperwork was given to the pilot.
The pilot then found what is being called inconsistencies in that paperwork. American Airlines will not be specific about what those inconsistencies were. But the airline says that, for an hour or so, there was an effort to straighten those inconsistencies out. It wasn't done to the satisfaction of the pilot. He is given by authority by the Federal Aviation Administration to kick anybody off his flight who he thinks might pose a security risk. He decided that this individual did. And so he asked him to get off the flight. The flight took off. The agent was left behind.
Eventually, this was settled. The next day, the agent did fly down to Crawford. He right now is guarding President Bush at his ranch.
KAGAN: Was he able to fly on American Airlines the next day?
MESERVE: Yes, he did fly on American Airlines. Eventually, the Secret Service was involved in this matter. And it verified who he was to the satisfaction of the airline.
KAGAN: All right, this is one of the favorite segments for our audience, Jeanne, because the people get to ask questions of the correspondent. So we're going to go to our audience for people who have questions for you.
Here's
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a comment about racial profiling. I think it is very bad for our society. It is not fair to racial profile somebody who looks like Arabic or black or different descent.
As an India-American right here living in the United States -- I'm from Michigan -- it's like having four or five guys in a place, where one black is sitting there or white is sitting there, or a person of Indian, and you profile the black as he's a criminal. This is absolutely ridiculous to profile. By the same token, this gentleman Arabic decent, he is giving security to our president who really needs to be there in Texas. And I think this pilot is overreacting. I think he is not reacting responsibly.
MESERVE: Daryn, let me tell you what American Airlines says.
KAGAN: Yes, go ahead, Jeanne.
MESERVE: American Airlines says that this has absolutely nothing to do to with this man's ethnicity, that this is a security matter, that anybody who was carrying a gun would have been put through this same rigorous sort of security.
However, there were rash of racial profiling allegations immediately after September 11. There were of such concern that the Department of Transportation issued a caution to the airlines and to airport law enforcement cautioning them that not only was racial profiling wrong, it was illegal, and that they should not be discriminating on the basis of race, region or ethnicity.
I can tell you that we spoke to a DOT official today who says that they have received about 20 complaints from people who say that they were removed from airline flights they believe because of their ethnicity. The Department is Transportation is investigating those complaints. It has now asked the airlines to tell them, to report to them each and every time it does remove somebody from an airline. And I know that one of your other guests has some other statistics indicating that this is a practice that is still going on -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Yes, we will be talking to him in just a minute.
First of all, we do actually have a question for you, Jeanne.
So here is Jeff.
MESERVE: Sure.
JEFF: Yes, hi.
My question for to you would be: Does the pilot receive all the information? Did he know that this person was of Arab-American descent? Or did he just know that someone with inconsistencies in his paperwork was trying to board the aircraft with a weapon?
MESERVE: My understanding is that this man has a name that is clearly Arab-American. And so the pilot, simply by looking at that paperwork, would have been able to identify him as such. I'm also told that, in his appearance, he would be identified either as Hispanic, Spanish, or Middle Eastern, again another obvious clue to the pilot.
But, again, the airline says that had to do with this decision. It had to do with the inconsistencies in the paperwork, inconsistencies which they will not be specific about. KAGAN: Jeanne Meserve in Washington, thank you. I know you are busy covering this story. In fact, you have to go and do even some more coverage.
MESERVE: You bet.
KAGAN: So we are going to let you go, cut you loose.
Jeanne, really appreciate it -- Jeanne Meserve from Washington, D.C.
Now, the Council on Arab-Islamic Relations has filed a complaint over what they say was clearly, they believe, ethnic and racial profiling.
Joining us now is Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations. Also, we have with us Sam Greenfield, a radio talk show host on WEVD in New York, and Blanquita Cullum, a Radio America talk show host.
BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, there, Daryn.
KAGAN: Ibrahim, let's start with you. I haven't seen you in a couple of months, since I saw you just in September. Glad to have you here on the show.
Now, you are asking for an apology from American Airlines, as I understand it.
IBRAHIM HOOPER, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Yes, today we asked for an apology and we asked for a clarification of the airline's policy on religious and racial profiling, because, as your reporter mentioned, the DOT has a policy or has guidelines against this kind of thing, but pilots are given wide latitude as to what they can do.
And I think really what we saw here, they mentioned inconsistencies. I think the inconsistencies were between this pilot seeing an Arab and Muslim name and the fact that he was Secret Service, and this didn't compute with the pilot.
KAGAN: Like that just couldn't be true, that all good Secret Service agents must be nice white guys, perhaps. Maybe that's where the thinking is inconsistent. But what about American Airlines? We also heard Jeanne report that they say this had nothing to do with racial profiling, that there were these other inconsistencies. Is it possible that perhaps the agent didn't fill out the form in the correct way?
HOOPER: I mean, we find this very often, that there is no overt act. They don't say get off the plane, you stinking Arab. There are other things that occur that indicate what is going on here. I think it is clear that if this person had been non-Muslim, non-Arab-American that there wouldn't have been a problem.
(CROSSTALK) KAGAN: Blanquita, hold on one second. I just want to share with Ibrahim a different opinion that is out there right now.
First of all, from our audience, Denise.
DENISE: I would just say that I want that pilot as the head of my plane that I'm going to be flying on. I would rather err on the side of caution right now to save lives. If I'm on that plane, I want the pilot to care about the lives right now.
KAGAN: Then there is this from Sally in Columbus, Georgia. She e-mailed us. She says: "Everyone of Arab descent should be profiled period. Better safe than sorry."
CULLUM: Well, that is clearly wrong. Come on, Daryn.
KAGAN: Blanquita, go ahead.
CULLUM: That is clearly wrong.
But you have the pilot, who is the front line of defense there. He is the guy that has got to make the decision for the rest of the people. Now, what we are not talking about here is that there were a couple of plane changes that this guy had to go through. So it so could be very possible that he didn't fill out the paperwork correctly.
Now, you have a situation where the Secret Service, they're in Washington. Baltimore is not that far away. And BWI is, what, 30 minutes away from Washington, D.C.. They could have made a call. There could have been some sort of mixup. But American Airlines has had a few planes lost.
KAGAN: Well, what about American Airlines? Shall we review?
CULLUM: American Airlines has had a problem -- it has had a lot of problems there. And American Airlines, if you remember, even with Holy Land Foundation was giving out frequent fliers miles to these suicide bombers' widows.
(CROSSTALK)
HOOPER: That's not true at all. That is a false allegation.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: You have two of the flights from September 11. You have the plane that crashed.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: You have the plane that was going from Paris to Miami.
CULLUM: Exactly.
KAGAN: American Airlines let Richard Reid allegedly with explosives in his shoe on board the flight, but doesn't let a Secret Service agent.
CULLUM: Well, but the fact of the matter is, how do you know the guy -- what's the difference between a guy that could be stealing the credentials from a Secret Service agent? Why would you check a guy that was working for the president? Maybe he really wasn't working for the president. This also says that nobody is too good to be checked. I mean, everybody has the right to be searched.
HOOPER: It also says that no Muslim, no Arab-American is ever going to be regarded as a real American.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: That's not true. This guy was carrying a gun. He was a carrying a gun.
KAGAN: Let's let Sam jump in here.
Sam, we haven't heard from you.
Sam Greenfield? Can you even hear us?
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Go ahead.
SAM GREENFIELD, RADIO TALK SHOW SHOT: I think the thing that everybody is putting aside and we're not talking about is, this man had a gun. He had a gun. If he was sitting there without a gun, we wouldn't be talking about this.
CULLUM: Right.
GREENFIELD: This is a country that just had a guy get on a plane with an exploding shoe. I'm from a city where 3,000 people were killed. People are scared. People are edgy. I'm sorry that this Secret Service agent was embarrassed. I think we all should do what the Secret Service is doing and frankly not comment on it. He had a gun and he is of Arabic descent.
And, sir, Mr. Hooper, no one said and no one implied "you stinking Arab." No one said that. No one implied that.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: Excuse me. I listened for minutes to people. You said that that was their attitude. That is exactly what you said.
HOOPER: I said that they did not say this, but that it was clear from the circumstance.
GREENFIELD: Yes, but it was implied. And what I'm saying is that you ratchet up the anger with that. He had a gun. I'm sorry. All bets are off. He had a gun.
HOOPER: When Timothy McVeigh blew up the (CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: And if Timothy McVeigh came on airplane with a gun today, they would take him off the plane, too.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: If Timothy McVeigh came on the plane, they would take him off the plane.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: We're going to the phones. Thank goodness we are going to the phones.
Caller, go ahead.
CALLER: Hello?
KAGAN: Steve. Yes, Steve, help us here.
CALLER: Yes, I'm sorry. Steve. Yes.
Racial profiling is just good police work. And I'm really sick and tired of people being so offended. Being offended and put out never got anyone killed. But what would we be talking about today if this were not a Secret Service agent, but somebody with fake I.D.? And we would talking about yet another American Airlines plane blown up.
It is not this country's fault that the only people who board planes to blow them up seem to come from the Middle East or at least are a part of this terrorist group. It's not our fault that they look like that. I would think that Arab-Americans loyal to this country who love being here would be willing to tolerate a little inconvenience and try to help out. But what I keep hearing is resistance. They don't want to talk. They don't want to tell anybody anything.
Who knows who is harboring who? I just don't see an awful lot of loyalty coming. All I hear is a lot of hand-wringing and whining. Look, nobody died yesterday. A guy was put out and he was inconvenienced. Well, get over it. This is a new America. It's not our fault. Our buildings were attacked. And more than 3,000 people were murdered by Arab-Americans. We didn't plan this .
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Blanquita, Sam, hold on. We have in our audience with us someone who would have to face this on a daily basis.
Bali (ph), what would you say to Steve on the phone? He says stop your whining. Get over it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I am very much upset with you that you are making these of comments, profiling. Again, you know, purposes that American Airlines has to put their ducks together. Then need to have a security check done. Maybe all the airlines have to give up their security system to the federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: No, no, no. It's Daryn. And I'm driving the bus. And we have Bali here in our audience. So he's going to finish his comment.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Yes, you will. Hold on. Bali is going to finish.
Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I think federal government is 100 percent right. All the airlines has to give up their security to the government. If this agent could pass through the security and went all the way into the plane, I think pilot has to check with the airline, not with this agent, that whether he could pass through the security very easily. Is he a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he's the president's security guard.
(CROSSTALK)
HOOPER: And, by the way, the agent asked that they contact the Secret Service to verify his address or his identity. Why couldn't they have done that?
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: I want to ask Bali just one question.
You say you are from Michigan. So share with us what you go through as you flew on the plane to get here to Atlanta.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a matter of fact, I drove.
KAGAN: Bali, you're killing me.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: Why can't we talk about the hoops that Americans are now jumping through? Little old ladies are getting stopped. I was stopped.
HOOPER: I'm sorry. This guy was an American.
(CROSSTALK)
CULLUM: Excuse me. Excuse me. Other Americans are getting...
HOOPER: You mean real Americans.
CULLUM: No, I mean any American. You are the one with chip on your shoulder. I'm' talking about Americans now having to carry only one bag that are going through
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: Oh, that's awful.
CULLUM: No, it's not just awful.
(CROSSTALK)
GREENFIELD: As opposed to them carrying a piano on board and trying to stuff it in the overhead.
CULLUM: No, what I'm saying is that the average American citizen now going through the security is having to go two and three hours ahead of time. They are ready to go -- they are having metal detectors, patted down.
GREENFIELD: Welcome to the rest of the world, Blanquita.
CULLUM: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
HOOPER: We should do heightened security checks for everyone. I'm willing to go as long as it takes so that everyone is secure.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Rodney, go ahead.
RODNEY: If we're going to err, let's please err on the side of caution. I agree with the pilot. Remember, he did have a gun. He was carrying a weapon.
KAGAN: OK, on that note, giving Rodney the last word there, our conversation continues. We get in a quick break.
I want to say first, thanks to Ibrahim Hooper for joining us today.
Up next, never say goodbye.
Still ahead:.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Although I have to leave you as the mayor soon, I resume the much more honorable title of citizen, citizen of New York and citizen of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Do you think he will stop with that? Where does the mayor go from here?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAGAN: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.
He battled crime, the tabloids and terrorists. And today, New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani made his final farewells before handing the city over to Michael Bloomberg.
Our correspondent Peter Viles is on the streets of New York to get reaction from people on the street.
Also, Peter, I hope you're not shivering too badly. But ask the folks what they think Rudy Giuliani should do next.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK, we'll start with that, Daryn.
I am here with Dennis Shildenfry (ph), who is a sculptor here in Greenwich Village.
Dennis, the question from Atlanta is: What do you think the mayor of New York should do next?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what I feel that the mayor should do is to continue to do the wonderful job he has been doing in bringing the people of New York together. There are many ways in which he can do that in public office. He will always be a public figure. And so he should continue to speak out about how strong New Yorkers are in recovering from any tragedy and how people throughout the United States can look at New York as a symbol of what America stands for.
VILES: Terrific. Thanks.
I don't think there is any danger of this mayor not continuing to speak out after he leaves office.
This is Dean Timpone (ph), who is a Ph.D. student, lives in the Bronx.
Dean, what you would like to see the mayor do next?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to see the mayor not forget about the other boroughs. I think Mayor Giuliani, prior to September 11, forgot the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island, especially with education policy. I think Bloomberg is going to have to do that. Giuliani forgot about that.
KAGAN: All right, Peter Viles, thank you very much for staying warm there on the streets of New York, or at least faking it there.
Just a few seconds left. Let's go to Blanquita and Sam.
Two words from each of you. What should Rudy Giuliani do next?
Blanquita, you go first -- ladies first.
CULLUM: He should bask and then run for the Senate and get Hillary's seat. KAGAN: Oh.
(APPLAUSE)
CULLUM: Yes!
KAGAN: OK, Sam, 10 seconds, what is next for Rudy Giuliani?
GREENFIELD: Hilly Clinton is the second most admired woman in the country.
Rudy should go into consultant work. Go to every city that has a high crime rate and turn things around. He could make a fortune. Write a book, do speaking engagements and relax and rest for months.
KAGAN: And with that, got to go. Sorry to be rude there. Really appreciate you being here.
CULLUM: Happy New Year to you, Daryn.
KAGAN: To you, to both of you, Sam Greenfield and Blanquita as well.
GREENFIELD: Same to you.
KAGAN: We'll see you tomorrow.
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