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CNN Talkback Live

Secret Service Agent Blames Racial Profiling

Aired January 03, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTY LOPEZ, ATTORNEY: It was the pilot who was rude, unprofessional and demeaning, as I will explain further. He treated an upstanding law enforcement agent as a second-class citizen simply because of his apparent Arab descent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAROL COSTELLO, HOST: A Secret Service agent booted from an American Airlines flight blames racial profiling. But now the pilot who removed him accuses the president's security guard of misconduct. Find out why the pilot says it was in everyone's best interests to remove the agent from the flight.

Also, snowbound in the South.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were on the flight line, on the runway for 10 hours. And so now we are trying to get seats on a plane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We actually made it to Atlanta at 5:30 last night and sat on the runway for three hours, waiting to get into the gate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Stewing on the runway. What are your rights? Can you insist someone let you off the plane?

Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out" I'm Carol Costello.

Thank you, audience members, for braving the 4 inches of snow we have in Atlanta today to join us this afternoon. I certainly appreciate it.

To our topic now: Remember the Arab-American Secret Service agent who was booted from an American Airlines flight on Christmas Day? Well, his lawyers held a news conference today calling his removal from the plane a clear case of discrimination. The pilot who questioned the agent's credentials, though, says he acted in the best interests of the crew. So, was it racial profiling or just good detective work?

Joining us today is Christy Lopez, that Secret Service agent's attorney.

Thank you, Ms. Lopez, for joining us this afternoon.

What does your client want from American Airlines?

LOPEZ: My client simply wants American Airlines to adopt and implement a security system that is rational and does not rely on discriminating against Arab-Americans. It's necessary to have a system that doesn't violate people's civil rights if we want an effective, safe, security system.

COSTELLO: So, does he want them to say they are sorry? Does he want them to institute a brand new educational system for racial profiling within the airline?

LOPEZ: He would like an explanation of why he was taken off the flight that is a valid explanation that can he understand. He would like training I think the pilots and the flight attendants are asking for guidance from the airlines. They are being asked to make some difficult security decisions with absolutely no guidance or training.

COSTELLO: The pilot asserts that your client was not cooperative; he filled out the paperwork wrong; he became hostile towards the pilot. Do you say that is all untrue? Is the pilot just making this up?

LOPEZ: The pilot is incorrect when he says that. This agent was completely calm and professional. He was not happy about the fact that he was being taken off a plane because of his ethnicity. And he was frustrated that he was not able to get to his duty station.

However, he was as polite as one could expect with an airline pilot who at one point directed him never to "address me directly."

COSTELLO: We invited American Airlines to join us today, but they declined. We want to bring in now our correspondent on homeland security, Jeanne Meserve -- Jeanne, are you there?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I am, Carol.

COSTELLO: Hi, Jeanne.

I know you have been following this story. And you have at least some of American Airlines' side. What are they saying about this?

MESERVE: Well, they put up a statement on their Web site a short time ago. It says that these are frivolous claims of racial profiling. It goes on to say, its guidelines for security are applied equally among all passengers. And the company vigorously resents any suggestion of racial discrimination.

They also say that they are not going to be deterred by threats of lawsuits from justly applying the security programs that they have established. They do also say that they would like to resolve this amicably, if that is possible -- Carol.

COSTELLO: The pilot is fighting back, too. Has he filed some sort of claim?

MESERVE: He hasn't failed a claim. American Airlines has now made public a written statement from the pilot about what happened, a statement which CNN obtained and released last night, in which he lays out his version of events.

This is very much, I guess you would call it a he said/he said situation. It is a very different rendition of the same events. If you would like me to, I can encapsulate some of what he says. In his statement, he doesn't explain why the Secret Service agent was taken off the flight in the first place.

But he said: "Suspicions were aroused when the agent said to the flight attendants that he would be back, not to leave without him. And he left a carry-on bag at his seat. The flight attendant then went back and looked at his seat, found a book there, which she described as being written in what she assessed to be an Arabic-style language." At that point, the pilot says they checked paperwork and they found the inconsistencies to which you have referred.

He does say in his report that the agent was very abusive towards him and hostile towards him and one point made some threats in which he implied that he would bring the power of the White House to bear on the situation -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Christy, let me bring you back in.

You are saying that it is completely untrue, that it was the pilot who was hostile towards the agent?

LOPEZ: That is right.

The agent followed all proper procedures. He went through security accompanied by a police officer. He filled out the forms. He got on board, introduced himself to the pilot as an armed Secret Service agent. And, initially, the pilot had no problem with him. He was asked to deplane for additional scrutiny, which he decided to do with absolutely no complaint. He got off the plane.

While he was off the plane, they found this book that they -- it is a college-text-type history of the Middle East that he bought off Amazon.com. And they saw that and decided that, well, here is someone who is of Arab descent reading a book about Middle East history. And the pilot decided that he was a threat and he would stop at nothing to keep him off his flight.

COSTELLO: OK, Christy, this has generated a lot of audience questions. And we have one now from the audience.

STAFF: This is Michael.

Michael, Go ahead.

MICHAEL: It just seems very inconsistent, if he followed all the appropriate procedures. And maybe you could explain actually what those procedures are. But if there are procedures in place and he followed them, then why would anyone ever bother to take him off the plane?

COSTELLO: Christy?

LOPEZ: I think that is an excellent question. He did follow all the procedures. He had his credentials and his badge with him. Three Maryland Transportation Authority officers verify that these were appropriate credentials. He tried to asked the pilot to call his superiors or call anybody, call the White House switch board, where he would be directed to someone who could verify who he was. The pilot refused to do that.

We believe that this is a case where bias and stereotype clouded the pilot's judgment. And so he saw suspicion in perfectly normal, innocuous facts.

COSTELLO: Jeanne, can you give us American Airlines' side of this? How exactly did the agent allegedly violate Americans' policy?

MESERVE: Well, they say what happened was that the paperwork, when they first received, was unreadable, that it was a carbon copy. Apparently, these things are made out in multiple numbers, and also that some items were missing.

Now, at the press conference today, Ms. Lopez and her fellow lawyers explained that this is because this was paperwork that had been done for an earlier flight that was canceled because of mechanical problems. And when the agent came to the gate for the second flight, they had no new paperwork. And so the attorneys say that certain things were crossed off and filled in for the new flight by the American Airlines employee.

But American Airlines, in the paperwork that it has now released from the pilot and from a manager, indicates that that wasn't all that was wrong, that they asked the agent to fill out paperwork a second time. And again there were problems. And the pilot implies even a third time they asked for paperwork. Still, things weren't quite right.

Also, on the matter of calling the Secret Service, there is a manager's report from American Airlines that -- a manager of their Systems Operation Control Center. And he says "The captain said that we should not use his information," that is the number for the Secret Service and the White House, "because he could have a friend answering the phone when we called." In other words, they were suspicious that this could be a big setup, that this could be a ruse -- Carol.

COSTELLO: OK, audience, having heard all of that, I'm going to ask you this question. Was the agent treat fairly? By applause, tell me. How many of you think he was?

How many think the pilot was right to toss the agent off the plane?

(APPLAUSE)

COSTELLO: OK. And by applause, how many do not think the pilot was right?

(APPLAUSE)

COSTELLO: Let's go to our phone lines.

Dilber (ph) from Nevada, you have a comment on this very subject. What do you think?

CALLER: Well, just like the captain on a ship, the captain of an airline has to put the safety of his passengers first. If there is even one red flag -- I mean we are X-raying shoes. If there is even one red flag about a person on board that flight, it is prudent to have the person investigated further. It is better to have a little delay and inconvenience of that person raising the flag than it is having an airliner go down because of terrorist act.

COSTELLO: I have an e-mail, too, to tell you. It says -- it is from Jim in Florida, by the way. "As a pilot, I understand that the pilot is responsible for the safety of the passengers and crew. And if he feels there is any danger, he has the right to do what needs to be done. As a former law enforcement officer, I know that many law enforcement officers, especially federal agents, have a big chip on their shoulders. I believe the pilot was correct."

Christy, I'm going to let you have the last word.

LOPEZ: This agent fully believes in heightened security. I'm a big believer in heightened security in airline security. And that is why I think we need a system that is rational and not based on the individual comfort level of an untrained pilot on any given day.

They need guidance. They need to know what is appropriate, what is not appropriate, what real factors of a possible terrorist are. When this agent finally talked to the security, corporate security employee of American Airlines, he was told, or his supervisor was told this is the kind of person we want on board. And that is a fact. And people would have been safer if he would have been on board.

COSTELLO: Thank you, Christy Lopez and Jeanne Meserve. Thank you both for joining us this afternoon.

Joining us now is Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesperson for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, and Jack Burkman, an attorney and former Republican congressional counsel.

Welcome to both of you.

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: Hi, Carol.

IBRAHIM HOOPER, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Thank you. COSTELLO: OK, who wants to go first this time, gentlemen? I will let you decide.

BURKMAN: Well, Carol, I would just say that your audience, I think, has heard a skewed, one-sided version up until now. I think the images of 9/11, as I listen to these various programs, have become a little too distant for a lot of people.

Look, we are functioning in a time of hysteria. You had a guy flying into Boston who was trying to light his shoes on fire and blow up an airline airplane. We don't want to do anything that will cause a pilot or an airline to be lax about security. Sure, there are going to be a handful of people here and there who are treated unfairly. And if the facts in this case are as his lawyer said, it is obviously unfortunate for the Secret Service agent.

But, at the same time, you cannot have a situation where the plaintiffs bar -- these plaintiffs attorneys are running all over the country trying to fuel these cases and fuel this fire. And you will have a situation like you have with the police in cities like New York or Philadelphia, where they are afraid to enforce the law because of fear of lawsuits.

HOOPER: Well, this is one of those issues, it is fine to say these kinds of things until it happens to you. Then it becomes a big deal.

We were contacted by the seat mate of the agent, who said -- who is not related to the agent, just a bystander -- confirmed that it was blatant -- in his words, blatant racial profiling. So, when you have a third party coming in and saying that...

BURKMAN: But that is one witness. There could be a hundred witnesses. He is citing one witness. We don't know the facts

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Gentlemen, let me interrupt you. What did that one witness say exactly?

HOOPER: He said, from the demeanor, from the comments, from the actions of the crew, he said it was -- quote -- "blatant racial profiling." And he felt it was necessary to come forward and contact us to tell us this. And, you know, the president has said that if this was profiling, he would be madder than heck. And we hope that he follows through on that.

BURKMAN: I would, too.

But, remember, we don't have time to try the facts of this case. This is shaping up to be a very complex case that could take a long time to try. That is not the issue. And it is not the point. The broader point is: How we are going to handle this going forward? What's important is, you cannot have pilots who are afraid to enforce the law. You've got to give pilots broad discretion to do what they need to do on an airplane. HOOPER: The pilot wasn't enforcing the law. Look at this way. If you had three people to profile, Richard Reid, John Walker, and this Secret Service agent, according to the current rules of profiling, it would be the Secret Service agent that would get profiled and these other guys would be let through.

BURKMAN: Carol, the issue here is, it's not just about race. It is about information. I mean, the Mideast is a giant melting pot. It is probably unknown to many Americans, you have as many blond-haired and blue-eyed people in the Mideast as dark-haired, dark-skinned people, what have you. It is not about race. It is about information. And our airlines and our pilots and our

(CROSSTALK)

HOOPER: It is about prejudice and it's about stereotyping.

COSTELLO: OK, let me interrupt for just a second. We have a question from our audience.

Larry?

LARRY: My question is, basically, why are we allowing our pilots to have so much authority? Why are they the ones that are asking these questions? Why is there no security set up so they ask the questions? The pilot should be the first line of defense. And when he says something, he should alert somebody that then they take control. They are trained. The pilot is trained to fly the plane. He is not trained to question people.

COSTELLO: Larry...

HOOPER: Exactly the point. This shouldn't be based on the whims or prejudices of a pilot. It should be based on security training by trained personnel.

BURKMAN: You know, part of the problem, Carol, is that Americans are spoiled. If you fly around the world, if you fly in Israel, if you fly in the Mideast, if you fly in Europe, everybody knows full well -- if you fly on El-Al in Israel, they sit down and literally interview every single person.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I have to interrupt you both on this point. We have to go to a break.

And we are going to talk to an airline pilot next, Larry. So your question will be answered in full.

We'll be right back on TALKBACK LIVE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. Thank you very much for joining us this afternoon. You know, we are talking about suspicious people on planes and the decisions that pilots have to make. Joining us now on the telephone is Captain Linda Pauwels, who is a commercial airline pilot.

Thank you so much for joining us. Our audience has a lot of questions for you.

LINDA PAUWELS, COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOT: Very pleasant good afternoon.

Coincidentally, I think I spoke with Mr. Hooper this morning on a radio talk show as I was driving up to airport.

HOOPER: Oh, yes, that is right.

PAUWELS: How are you, sir?

(LAUGHTER)

HOOPER: Fine.

COSTELLO: Good.

Well, Linda, tell us, as a pilot, what kinds of decisions do you have to make when you are viewing the passengers on board the plane?

PAUWELS: Well, you know, let me introduce this by -- I understand that this issue has brought out a lot of passion, discomfort, and heated arguments, from the conversations that I have heard.

But it has to be understood that this is not a matter of opinion as to the authority of a pilot in command. The authority of the pilot in command on board an aircraft is actually given to us by federal aviation regulations. And I will briefly tell you that each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft, the crew, and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crew and cargo on that airplane. That is a very broad mandate.

And pilots have to make difficult decisions every day. I truly believe this not an issue of profiling. I believe this an issue of a pilot in command exercising his authority to maintain the safety of the flight.

COSTELLO: So, what kind of behavior are you looking for exactly?

PAUWELS: Well, we don't actually look for behavior. Pilots are trained to fly aircraft. We are also trained when, especially there is an armed passenger on board, to be extra vigilant, to make sure that the paperwork is filled out properly.

I discussed this earlier with Mr. Hooper. I recall reading last year an article that had some widespread coverage about, say, credentials being seized, fake credentials seized by the FBI and the GAO, approximately 200 badges that had been sold over the Internet. If I remember that article, I'm sure many other pilots do. Some people had used those badges to gain access to aircraft and fly armed. They also had access to federal buildings.

So, in a time of heightened security, all of us have to be alert. And it is not a matter...

COSTELLO: OK, I want to interrupt you for just a second, because we have some questions from our audience.

STAFF: Paul, go ahead.

PAUL: Since September 11, have the pilots received any more training in security or just what are they looking for on a person on a plane?

PAUWELS: I personally have not received any additional training since September 11.

COSTELLO: Do you receive any training on racial profiling?

PAUWELS: We do not receive training on racial profiling.

COSTELLO: Do you think you should?

PAUWELS: Well, I think that is an issue that has to be legislated. I think that we are going to have to address many of these matters in a comprehensive way. And it is not just flying off the handle here and there to resolve issues that are passionate. We need to be -- have a concerted effort on this.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I'm sorry to interrupt everyone. We have a shortened show today because of that trial that is ongoing. And I apologize, but we are out of time already.

I would like to thank all of our guests, our studio audience and of course you at home. TALKBACK LIVE will be back again tomorrow with a "Free-For-All Friday." And, hopefully, we'll have our whole show. You don't want to miss that.

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