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CNN Talkback Live

What Should Happen to Andrea Yates?; Should 15-year-olds be allowed to fly planes?

Aired January 07, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARUEEN O'BOYLE, HOST: One by one, Andrea Yates told police she drowned her five children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROL BYERS: She's sick. You know, It's a disease. I mean, I don't think she chose to be mentally ill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BOYLE: Does this woman deserve sympathy?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's too bad she didn't kill herself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BOYLE: Or does she deserve the death penalty?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANE CLEMENTE, JUSTICE FOR ALL: It is highly probable that Andrea Yates will be home with her family within a year and, this is a scary thought, having more children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BOYLE: Also, a fantasy of terror, a kid out of control. Did Charles Bishop try to recreate the horror of 9-11?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF BENNIE HOLDER, TAMPA POLICE: He did expressing his sympathy toward Osama bin Laden and the event which occurred on September 11th of 2001.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BOYLE: But if a 15-year-old can do this with a plane, what is stopping terrorists?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB COOPER, OWNER, AVIATION FLIGHT SCHOOL: I don't know what can be done other than just not giving a student the keys to the airplane to prevent this from happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BOYLE: Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT. I'm Maureen O'Boyle. Thanks for joining us. We are learning a lot more about Charles Bishop this afternoon. He's the 15-year-old who stole a plane and crashed it into a building in Tampa, Florida.

The 9th grader has been described as quiet and normal, but investigators are fleshing out that description as they talk to friends, classmates, and family. Joining us now is CNN correspondents Mark Potter in Tampa.

Mark, what have you learned about Charles Bishop?

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Maureen, we are still seeking information on this boy. In fact right now a news conference is under way with his principal and school officials. But what we are hearing is sort of a mixed bag of assessments of him.

Officials say that he was a troubled young man, a loaner who carried with him a suicide note in which he expressed sympathy for Osama bin Laden and for the events of September 11. And then again you talk to relatives and friends who say that he was a nice boy. A neighbor said he was quiet, a kind boy. Here at the flight school where he was a student and where he stole the plane, the owner said there was no indication at all that he could ever do anything like this. So it's a complex picture.

It is still being developed at this hour. In fact, the authorities have even gone to his computer to see what contacts he may have made, who he may have been talking to, what was said in chat rooms and all of that. The picture is still being put together but a lot of people who knew him are shaking their heads and are shocked by this apparent suicide in which he also talked about terrorism.

Authorities, by the way, say they do not think at this stage that he actually was involved in terrorism, but he certainly said it in the suicide note. At least he made references to terrorism, and that has everybody concerned. But still trying to figure out exactly what happened. It's a bit of a complex case and a sad case it appears according to the people who knew him well.

O'BOYLE: It is so bizarre. Had he had any suicidal tendencies before? Had anyone mentioned that he was troubled in the family? Did he say anything to family members before this happened?

POTTER: We don't know that and I don't want to even suggest that we know at this stage. There may be people who do and we do not. I don't want to speculate about that. What I want to say is that the authorities here are quite concerned about what he went on to do. He took off from here. He flew through a number of restricted airspaces at Tampa International Airport and at Macdill, and then he flew on in to Tampa and crashed into the building.

A dangerous trip all along the way before it concluded so tragically. In fact we heard at the time he was flying past Tampa International a Southwest Airlines jet was taking off, a 737 headed for New Orleans and the tower told the jet to slow down because the Cessna was coming in close, the Cessna with the boy aboard. And the jet slowed down and the Cessna actually went over the jet about 1,000 feet away and Southwest Airlines that that did not at all pose a safety threat, but of course it's a concern. If you can imagine the possibilities there.

He also went just 100 feet over the runway at Macdill Air Force Base as well, and the dangers and the threat there is obvious as well, the potential threat is obvious and the concern is easily understood.

O'BOYLE: Mark, a lot of people are scratching their heads wondering why he had the keys to begin with. Why did he have the keys to an airplane?

POTTER: The answer comes from the owner of this company who says that that is standard procedure with a student. The student was told by his instructor to go out and pre-flight the aircraft -- alone. It's part of his training. And the owner said that there was nothing wrong in that. There was no indication, again, that this boy would do anything wrong. It has never happened before.

And he was never intended -- it was never intended for him to fly the plane alone. The instructor would go with him. But the owner says that it was not a security breach, that they have no plans to change security and that the company here is as much a victim as anybody else because the boy has certainly be besmirched its good name by stealing one of their plane.

O'BOYLE: Do you think things will change there at the airport? Have you noticed any visual, visible security changes?

POTTER: Not yet, but I can tell you that there was an army of cameras here and thousands of questions asked of the owner, who made himself available to everybody today, about whether security would have to be changed. So we'll see if that actually leads to that. We haven't seen anything like that yet. But of course it has raised the question of airport and small aircraft security once again since September 11.

O'BOYLE: I know parts of the letter have been made public, at least descriptions of what was in that letter that he left. Does it seem to you that he was trying to recreate September 11? That there was some sort of, I know he mentions Osama bin Laden, but that even visually he was trying to make it look like that? I understand there's another building next to the one he crashed into.

POTTER: It certainly looks like September 11. And that was what went through everybody's mind. There was a plane sticking out of the side of a tall building in downtown Tampa and the connection was obvious in everybody's mind. Whether he was intending to go do that, who knows. One question that I had is that the building that he hit was the Bank of America and who knows whether that meant something. I don't mean to suggest that it does. But it's a question that at least I have asked. He did talk about Osama bin Laden in the letter and his support of the September 11 attacks.

It certainly seems to have similarities. Whether it was by design, who knows, but they are there.

O'BOYLE: Mark I am sure we'll have more questions for you a little bit later, but right now a lot of people are wondering how this teenager was able to take off with the plane in the first place. After all, it's post-September 11. Security is supposed to be tight. And he was, in fact, only 15 years old.

With me here in Atlanta is Neal Boortz, a syndicated talk show host on the radio, at WSB. He is an instrumented-rated private pilot. He owns two planes and served on the local airport authority for 6 years. Also with us, Bill Daly, a former FBI investigator. He assisted in the redesign of security at the World Trade Center after the 1992 bombing.

Thanks, both of you for being with us. Do you guys think that tighter security would have prevented this tragedy from happening?

NEAL BOORTZ, WSB RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I'll go first. Yeah, Sure. Tighter security would. But how tight should security be? I would think that flight schools will probably take some added precautions about students who have not yet qualified to solo an aircraft, about letting them have the keys out on the ramp.

But I think the thing that bothers me the most about this is the assumption that people are making that a light airplane of these 182- RG that this guy flew into the building, a light airplane of this kind is an efficient vehicle for a terrorist. It simply is not. They don't carry enough.

O'BOYLE: But what if he had explosives? What if it was a terrorist with those keys instead of a 15-year-old with explosives aboard?

BOORTZ: Let's take the mind of a terrorist right now who wants to cause damage with an explosion. Isn't he going to take the easiest, most efficient route to his target possible and try to do the maximum amount of damage? Well the easiest most efficient route to the target is not a general aviation airplane. It's very simple. It's a rental truck or a car that you can load with 10 times the explosives you could in a general aviation airplane.

You could take, and I don't want to give people ideas, but one truck loaded with a massive amount of explosives driven into the center of town, parked in the middle of an intersection with a high- rise on every corner and then you push the button, is going to be much more devastating than one light airplane flown into a building. So a terrorist who wanted to cause damage is not going to try to do it with a small airplane. O'BOYLE: Bill, what do you think about that?

WILLIAM DALY, FORMER FBI INVESTIGATOR: Well, Maureen, just -- I mean, I think the points you made are certainly valid. But I think there are some other aspects that we have to look at, and that is that this plane also flew over some restricted space and into where some commercial aircraft were taking off and landing, which with some other ill intent could have caused some tremendous damage and loss of life in those planes.

I think what we have to do is say post-September 11, things that we accepted as being our way of living, an open society, we need to take a look at. We need to put it on the table. The general aviation facilities are some of that that needs to be looked at. The government is looking at transporting chemical and toxic materials. They're looking at our food chain supply. We're looking at nuclear power stations and how they are protected. So I think this is another area.

And certainly, the unfortunate situation of this 15-year-old points out the issue that these facilities are treated different than the commercial aviation facilities. And I'm not suggesting they be treated the same. But I'm just saying I think they need to be looked at, particularly if someone has some ill intent, has somebody behind them and wants to go and create a tremendous incident. This might be a way they could do it.

O'BOYLE: But maybe we should be raising the age. Do you think we should raise the age?

BOORTZ: That I will agree. I have long said that 16-year-olds don't have the judgment necessary to drive cars. I don't think they have the judgment necessary to fly.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BOYLE: I will agree with you on that one.

BOORTZ: The most important piloting skill that you can develop or have is judgment. And I'm sorry, teenagers generally don't have it. So speaking just for me, if you want to raise the age on a pilot's license and for logable pilot training, raise it, I think it's a good idea.

O'BOYLE: Bill, do you think we should raise the age, so that 15- year-olds couldn't be behind the wheel of a plane, the controls of a plane?

DALY: Well, not being an expert in aviation would just tell you from being a parent and one that has observed youngsters driving vehicles, we know that those people who are involved in the most accidents, and that's why insurance rates are high, are those that are teenagers and just above. And I think some judgment, the judgment of which Neil just pointed out, comes into play, and I think that certainly makes a lot of sense as to reevaluate that as part of the security and safety evaluation of our skies. O'BOYLE: Chris, you have got somebody in the audience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is John. Go ahead, John.

JOHN: Yes, I disagree with Neil on some issues, because it's like he's minimizing the severity of the accident. What if it had been a hospital that he flew the plane into, some where where it is heavily populated at all times, or one of our power plants or our water supply. So this -- a real issue that needs to be addressed through the aviation of who they let get behind these planes and who opened up these different schools and who the people they let come in and take these lessons.

BOORTZ: Well, let me respond. He's absolutely right. You could have flown this plane into a number of different things. The fact is though if your intention is to do damage, you are not going to use a small airplane. A small airplane would bounce off a nuclear power plant. It would barely leave a scratch. You could drive a truck into a high school and do more damage than a small airplane.

But, Maureen, I want to remind you of one thing and that is since 9/11, we're going to get back to this teenagers and airplanes thing again. We had a teenager, just days after the incident, buzz a state fair right here in Georgia, 75 feet from a ferris wheel. We had a teenager buzz, in a small airplane, his high school football game outside of Houston, Texas. Now I'm a big proponent and a big fan of general aviation. It's a life long love of mine. But I do think that we need to revisit teenagers flying airplanes.

O'BOYLE: We are going to talk about that again in just a moment. Let's take a break first. Charles Bishop was just 15. Was he too young to be at the controls of an aircraft? And at what age do you think people should be allowed to take flying lessons? Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback, AOL key word: CNN. We'll be right back.

(APPLAUSE)

O'BOYLE: Welcome back, everybody. Chris has got somebody in the audience who is actually a pilot. You have something to say about this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he also worked for the FAA.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I used to work for the FAA and I have been flying since I was 13. And that's why I kind of wondered, you know, I don't know how old Neil was when he first started learning to fly. But I didn't have any problem and I didn't have any idea of going out and running into a building when I was 13.

O'BOYLE: Well, it brings up a good point that parents seem to know their kids, but maybe they really don't all know their teenagers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's the point also is that, you know, they said they threw the kid these keys when he was 15. But they do the same thing at any flying school if you walk up there. That's one of their tests. You have to go out and pre-flight this aircraft and they give you the keys. And you go out and do this.

O'BOYLE: So are you saying you think it's OK for a 15-year-old to have the keys of an airplane?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I think it's fine as long as he's being supervised, I mean, because he's a 15-year-old kid.

O'BOYLE: Well then, what you are saying happened should not have happened? The instructor should have been with him at the airplane?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He probably should have been standing there letting him do his own inspection, yes.

O'BOYLE: And you still think that that's still not enough?

BOORTZ: Well, in this case, we have a teenager who obviously is suffering from some sort of an emotional or mental problem. And people suffering from emotional or mental problems can use any number of different instrumentalities to cause great damage. I don't think we should blame general aviation for the actions of a disturbed individual.

(APPLAUSE)

DALY: Yes, but, Maureen, I would like to just chime in here on one point, and I think it dovetails into this as well as points out some of the issues that these general aviation facilities face. And that is that even though this was a young man, it demonstrates the ease of which people can take some planes out of these facilities.

O'BOYLE: Sure.

DALY: And let's not lose sight of the fact that some of these general aviation facilities also have small jets. They have executive jets. I have gone around and helped examine some of these facilities who have their jets there, and you have some fairly significant jets, sometimes 727-type size planes that are sitting out there on the runway or might be able to be chartered. And so these are the issues we have to look at.

We have to put everything on the table post-September 11 and say, you know, not just what age people should be flying at but what should we do to secure these locations where somebody might use the plane.

O'BOYLE: I was reading today that many of the manufacturers of these aircraft have three, sometimes only three keys for each model of plane, that you can take a key from a plane that's, you know, in Florida and go to an airport and randomly try it out on the same kind of model and it might work.

BOORTZ: Well, let me address that. I just bought a new one, a Mooney, and I bought it in March of last year. They gave me the keys and they said, don't lose these they said because it costs $39 to get a replacement, there's only one like it and you will have to wait a long time.

O'BOYLE: We have got someone on the phone from Hawaii who thinks we need to really tighten up security at these airports -- Alan (ph).

ALAN: Aloha from beautiful, sunny, warm Hawaii. I have got a few points to make. But the main one is that it just shows that the FAA having a lot of people that are former airline industry and general aviation industry people are too slow to respond with any corrective measures that cost money.

And there are two measures in this type of a case; one is there are wheel locks and there are tie down locks that could be in place so even if the instructor is not there to supervise the student doing his pre-flight check, he can start the plane with the ignition key, but the plane can't leave it's base on the ram.

And the other thing is you have the FAA psychological examination that they give to commercial airline pilots, they also give that to sky marshals and other people, they could use that or they could develop a new one that's more for younger people to determine maturity levels.

O'BOYLE: We have got an e-mail here. A person who says why shouldn't a 14, 15 year old be allowed to fly or take flying lessons, I've seen the same age drive go-carts at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour. That's Steven from Dublin, Georgia.

But this person says: Every parent thinks they know their child, but it makes you wonder if any of us really know our teenagers. That's Billy from South Carolina.

How -- the psychological test might work, but the time and energy it's going to take for these small airports to conduct these studies, is it feasible, Bill? Is it feasible Neil?

I think some added security is feasible. I know that the airport that I'm based at now, they put additional gates and they have added additional roving security guards. I think the best security for general aviation, though, and general aviation airports is an increased sense of responsibility on the part of aircraft owners and pilots to watch the airport, look for suspicious activity and when they see it, don't just assume that everything is OK. Make a report to somebody and also the general aviation pilots need to police each other well. You see somebody doing something that is dangerous, call them on it. And if they persist, report them.

O'BOYLE: Chris.

CHRIS: This is Rex, a criminal defense attorney from Anchorage, Alaska.

REX: I would say that what we have seen of this young man is our continuing vulnerability to airplanes, and I don't know that there really are answers how far as has been stated can you go with security. I know that after September 11 the FAA closed down even the small planes, because there was word that terrorists might use them with biological warfare materials. And, of course, if you take the small plane like this and you load it up with biological warfare materials you are going to have a lot of problems, maybe not buildings, but a lot of people.

O'BOYLE: Well, let's let Bill answer that.

DALY: I certainly am concerned about that, and analyzing terrorist incidents we're always concern that we are going to deflect them and put them off the target -- or mechanisms that are easier than say the commercial locations where we are tightening up security. I would also say that a smaller plane flying into a big city can create a tremendous amount of damage, and certainly psychological damage for all of us. We forget a lot of the smaller airports have been in place for a while, and a lot of the cities have grown up around them. Outside of Atlanta, outside of New York, there are these small airports within just a few minutes of the downtown areas. So I think it is something that used to be looked at. I don't think we have the answer to be secure all the time, but I think we need to be looking, and saying it's a vulnerability. What should we do, and I think the FAA needs to be reevaluating those regulations for the general aviation facilities.

O'BOYLE: This certainly does -- it brings up a lot of questions for all of us. Bill Daly and Neil Boortz. Thanks so much for being with us.

BOORTZ: My pleasure.

DALY: Thanks.

O'BOYLE: Up next, from Columbine to Tampa, how do you recognize a suicidal teen, are there tell-tale signs? Psychologist Robert Butterworth joins us right after this. Stay with us

(APPLAUSE)

O'BOYLE: Coming up. Do you have sympathy for a confessed child killer?

JUTTA KENNEDY, ANDREA YATES' MOTHER: She was a wonderful person and she still is. And she was sick, and people should consider that.

O'BOYLE: Will they make a case or make excuses for Andrea Yates?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BOYLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about the teen who flew a small airplane into a skyscraper over the weekend. Here to help us get an inside look inside this boy's head is child psychologist Robert Butterworth. You know, if this were any other teen suicide, which tragically there are many, probably everyday, even every year, would we even be talking about this, but it's the way he committed suicide that makes the story so note worthy.

ROBERT BUTTERWORTH, CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, and Maureen the frightening thing about this in the past, what we have seen in the last year or two are angry kids taking out their anger on a publicized campus, you know, the Columbine effect. And are we now going to see a change from Columbine to terrorism acting out, like taking a plane or making an anthrax scare so the frightening thing is this is like the thing. The big frightening thing in our society is terrorism, and are -- these disturbed kids who may be acting out these things through some kind of a strange affiliation with somebody like bin Laden.

O'BOYLE: Do you think that we have examined closely enough how September 11 has impacted our teenagers.

BUTTERWORTH: We know images for young people are very important. We know images like this youngster. We don't know too much about it. But right now we know he was alienated. There's a report that he told his grandmother he didn't want the people that hated him to go to his funeral. So we know that he was somewhat ostracized. So this is that Columbine formula, even though he was a good kid to the adults, and doing well in school. We don't know how he was treated by his young peers at school.

We know these kids are seething, and you know to make attention, to go out in a blaze of glory, what are we preoccupied with? We are preoccupied with terrorism. So it's so important, somebody has to take responsibility for these kids. And we now are -- we have another burden, and again on our hands.

O'BOYLE: But for the parents watching and teenagers, we talk about these tell-tale signs, what are they? Many teenagers are loaners. He was described by some friends as smart, but kind of quiet. There's a lot of kids who are smart and kind of quiet and loners. What do you think we should tell parents out there that they need to look for?

BUTTERWORTH: Well, I think the basic, Maureen, is finding out whether or not your youngster is happy. And secondly, finding out if there are problems or any pressures, and remember school and their peer group are the biggest pressures for teenagers. Are there conflicts? Are they being teased? Are they being ostracized? And is this youngster's temperament, that kind of temperament where they can't laugh at this, where they can't laugh teasing, and but stays inside and it seethes and are they smart enough to come up with a plan?

O'BOYLE: Because this teenager has brought in September 11 by his means of committing suicide and apparently the suicide note, I know with my daughter, she's very, very little. I don't let her see any of the news reports about it, but are kids becoming desensitized to all of this because they are seeing so much or should parents sit down and talk about this with their kids?

BUTTERWORTH: I think parents always need to be talking to their kids about what is going on in the world. Their world in school as well as our world, what's happening outside. But the other thing is parents need to know what is happening in the schools in terms of youngsters' relationships and a lot of times a quiet kid, who is doing well in school, a parent might say there are no problems.

But you know teenagers can hide so much and we see these images and we say, my God, I bet today a lot of people are saying gee, why couldn't we have talked to him sooner, if we had only known. O'BOYLE: Dr. Butterworth, we have got a question from an audience member -- Chris (ph).

CHRIS: I would just like to see the news people, CNN included, use care in how they report these things. Because these kids, don't think of that. And when we put the name out there, Osama bin Laden, Osama bin Laden. Just call him OBL and let it fly. That's what I say.

O'BOYLE: You think kids are seeing far too much of the coverage of what is going on in Afghanistan and here at home?

CHRIS: I think that we should, I think the news people and parents should be responsible and sensitive to what, what impact it's going to make.

O'BOYLE: Ultimately though, it really truly depends on the parents censoring the amounts that those kids see, don't you agree?

CHRIS: You have a lot of replays, on and on and on and on and on. I Don't want to hear about it all the time. Just put the facts out there and then just kind of let if fly.

O'BOYLE: But what is the responsibility, Robert, of parents? Should parents be censoring how much the kids are watching?

BUTTERWORTH: You know there are some kids that are disturbed enough to where they see something on the television, they may act it out. We know that from situations where is kids see movies and act out the parts of the movie in the real life and know that from Columbine, and also Web sites that are appearing where kids have plans to do things.

But it is also not just censoring the news, but opening up, finding out what is in their youngster's psyche, finding out what is in their youngster's room, finding out what kids are doing on line. It is a whole list of things. We were talking about this before Columbine, now we need to talk about it again.

O'BOYLE: It's certainly a wake up call for all parents of teenagers. Thank you, Robert, for being with us.

BUTTERWORTH: Thank you, Maureen.

O'BOYLE: Up next, what makes a mother kill her own children? The trial of Andrea Yates. Her husband says he for gives her. Could you?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BOYLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT. As Leon just mentioned jury selection is under way in the trial of Andrea Yates. She's the woman who admits to drowning her five children in the bath tub last year. The crime triggered a lot of speculation about the influence of post part em depression and mental illness. The National Organization for Women has rallied to her defense and Yates's husband and the father of her kids and her mother are begging for her life. With us are Dick Deguerin, a criminal defense attorney. He represented a Houston woman who through her seven children into a bayou and killing two of them. Also with us, Nelda Luce Blair, a former Texas prosecutor.

Let me start with you, Nelda, what are they looking for in this jury? What are they looking for?

NELDA LUCE BLAIR, FORMER TEXAS PROSECUTOR: The prosecution is going to be looking for obviously people who can impose the death penalty and will impose the death penalty in certain cases. They are also going to be looking for people who, while they may be sympathetic to Andrea Yates, they understand that this is a horrible crime and that she committed it intentionally killing all five of her own children.

O'BOYLE: We were talking earlier, Dick, about the whole concept of reason of insanity, not guilty by reason of insanity, to anybody who hears the story, somebody who kills their kids is socially considered crazy. But by definition how do you defend somebody like this?

DICK DEGUERIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well you have to get a jury that will be understanding of mental illness and remember that mental illness is different when judged by a psychiatrist than when it is judged by the law. Law is archaic. It is hundreds of years old and hasn't caught up with the art of science of medicine.

So what's going to happen in the case is that the defense has a terrific job, tremendous job of trying to explain the mental state of Andrea Yates when she killed her children. None are going to be in doubt that she did kill her children.

O'BOYLE: How do you think media coverage will impact this jury pool? DEGUERIN: I think it's already impacted the jury pool. That's the problem. It's going to be very difficult to find a jury that really has not made an opinion about the case. There will be people that will say they don't have an opinion, but I'm concerned as a lawyer should be concerned that there will be people who will be auditioning for the jury, trying to get on the jury because it's such an interesting, fascinating case.

O'BOYLE: Well, Dick, everybody seems to have an opinion about this case. Chris you have somebody in the audience.

CHRIS: Attorney from Alaska, go ahead.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes. I think that the criminal justice system doesn't really know how to deal with a person who is mentally ill. Miss Yates is obviously was mentally ill for her to take the life of five of her children. We don't know what to do with that. Certainly if we put her to death it's on us. It takes us back to the archaic days. O'BOYLE: I have a question about that. What could happen to her if she is founding in by reason of insanity, could she been put into a mental hospital for short period of time then released?

DEGUERIN: It's doubtful she would be released very quickly. She would be hospitalized and she would be treated, sent to a mental institution and it would take a long time probably for her to recover and to be released, if ever.

BLAIR: But Maureen, there is no requirement she stay in a mental institution for any length of time, however. I agree with Mr. Deguerin that it is not probable, but it's possible that she could be found to be healed and let go.

O'BOYLE: So, there's a possibility she could get out, be released then go and have more children?

BLAIR: Sure there is.

DEGUERIN: There's that possibility. Just as there's a possibility that John Hinkley could be released. But the practical matter of it is that's not going to happen. This case has received too much attention for them to simply say oh, she's well now. We are going to let her out. This is not a crime that is going to ever repeat itself, that is through Andrea Yates. She will never have the opportunity again to do such a thing, nor is it likely that she...

O'BOYLE: You are saying she will never have the opportunity?

DEGUERIN: No. As a practical matter I don't think she ever would. I think she's going to be...

O'BOYLE: But this is a woman who's husband and she were both told by doctors after serious problems after her fourth child that she shouldn't have any more children. She had been hospitalized a number of times and the doctor apparently according to reports said to her husband Russell, you really should not have any more children. It could be gravely ill for your wife and yet she had more. So I don't understand when you say that, Dick, how she will be prevented from having more.

DEGUERIN: I'm not sure about the accuracy of those reports. You know, there's been a gag order in the case about all that we have been able to learn about the case has been in the newspapers and on television and now some of the medical records have been made public, but what that shows is that she was probably not treated correctly.

She was probably not -- stayed in the hospital as long as she should have. She didn't take her medications. So there's a big problem with what the public knowledge is about the case. We can only wait and see what the evidence is that comes out. But what I'm saying is more importantly, she's obviously very mentally ill. She was obviously delusional when this happened and I don't believe, and I'll bet a sizable sum on it, that if she's found not guilty by reason of insanity, I don't believe she's going to be out in the next decade or even after that. CHRIS: This is Doug. is from Tucson, Arizona.

DOUG: I don't think that being crazy should give you any, like a license to kill your five kids at all.

O'BOYLE: Some people bring up, Dick, that the point that she made this sort of quiet phone call to her husband at work and then she called the police, is that going to play with the jury, the idea that this woman was able to pick up the phone and make a couple of phone calls after committing this obviously heinous crime?

DEGUERIN: Obviously, yes. The prosecution is going to make much of that. They are going to make much of the fact that some of the people around her did not notice how affected she must have been. But it's up to the doctors and the lawyers to explain to the jury that frequently a person who is delusional may appear to be rationale. They can do ordinary tasks like going to the store or cooking dinner or doing things like that, and talk on the phone, too.

I mean, she could know what she did but not know the wrongness of it. She can be delusional about what she was doing.

O'BOYLE: Nelda, do you think the prosecution will point the finger at the medical community as her husband has in an interview where he said that basically they shouldn't have released her when they did and they didn't really follow through with the care of his wife.

BLAIR: The prosecution is going to point the finger at Andrea Yates, not necessarily at the doctor...

O'BOYLE: I'm sorry, you are right, the defense will basically be blaming the medical community.

BLAIR: The defense is going to blame anyone they possibly can besides Andrea Yates and rightfully so. That's what their job is to do. But Maureen, it's going to be, in my opinion, very difficult to convince a jury that Andrea Yates was insane, or not guilty by reason of insanity because they are going to have to prove she didn't know it was wrong when she was killing her children.

She waited until her husband went to work. She did it during a time period before help arrived to take care of her children, evidently there was a family member that was supposed to be on her way. She called the police. She called her husband very methodically. That's going to be a difficult task to convince a jury in my opinion, that she didn't know it was wrong.

Everything -- or a lot of things she did point to the fact that she did know it was wrong and did it anyway.

O'BOYLE: We have a woman on the phone who has suffered through post part em depression. Are you there, caller.

CALLER: Yes, I am. Can you tell us what the story, when you read about it and hear about it, what it does to you? CALLER: I think that they should give her the utmost compassion. I went through it with 4 children and each time it got worse and worse and it was up to my doctor's discretion, and I believe the doctors should be the ones held liable because it's a real disease.

O'BOYLE: It happened through 4 of your children?

CALLER: Yes. Each time it got worse and worse until I ended up being put in a straight jacket and hospitalized. But they did not let me out until I was completely cured.

O'BOYLE: You feel that Andrea got to a point of no return?

CALLER: She didn't know what she was doing. A mother in her right mind would never do that.

BLAIR: That's one of the fallacies, Maureen, in my opinion. As a society we really elevate mothers to a different level. Rightfully so. But just to say that she was obviously insane because she was a mother and killed her children? That is not necessarily so. Mothers don't have to be insane or evil or anything else to intentionally kill children.

DEGUERIN: I'm going to do something out of the ordinary, I'm going to agree with Nelda about that. But what is left out of that is that this is not necessarily a rational decision that she made. I don't think anybody in the world can prove that Andrea Yates is a bad, mean person that intended to kill her children. Of course there are mothers that do that. But this is not one of those cases. This is a case where she was delusional national.

O'BOYLE: We'll get opinions from the audience and more from our guests right after this when TALKBACK LIVE continues. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BOYLE: Thank you for being with us. We are still talking with our guests. We have Dick Deguerin on satellite from Houston and Nelda Blair from Houston as well. Before we went to the brake you were actually agreeing with Nelda, what you said was unusual. But a lot of people are wondering out here, is this going to change the law for us, this case? Is it actually going to be a precedent-setting case?

DEGUERIN: I don't believe so. I think it will give some impetus to the legislature to perhaps modernize our code that deals with mental illness. It should. But it's not going to set any precedent.

O'BOYLE: Would you want a jury made up more of women or men? Who will be more sympathetic to Andrea Yates? Do you think women by virtue of the fact that we can somehow relate to her. Many of us can't.

BLAIR: Not necessarily. At least in my talking to groups of people, it really, the gender of the person doesn't seem to matter very much. There are women that feel just as harshly and men that feel just as harshly and vice versa in the little bit of personal sampling I have done.

O'BOYLE: How long do you think this process will take?

BLAIR: It's going to take several weeks. I know the media its saying that testimony is supposed to start on February 11th. That's probably a little bit ambitious.

O'BOYLE: Chris?

CHRIS: ... Port Author, Texas, go ahead.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I feel that not so much the death penalty, but I think she should be sentenced, a life sentence or something like that. I don't think she should get off because you have women who have raised 12 and 13 kids. I think every woman at some level has suffered mentally after giving birth, they might not be willing to admit it. You have single parent women that raise kids, two and three kids, and they don't take their children's life. I just don't feel any woman giving birth to kids is going to take the lives of their children.

That's a part of you no matter how sick you are. I just, I can't agree with it.

O'BOYLE: You don't think she should get the death penalty?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I don't think they should get the death penalty but I do feel a life sentence. I do think a life sentence. I don't think that they should treat it as a mental illness and that she should be sentenced for medical and out, I don't feel, I don't feel that.

O'BOYLE: We have Laura on the phone from Louisiana. You don't agree. You think she should get the death penalty?

CALLER: Most definitely. Most definitely. If you know that you are going to through postpartum and you have had two and three kids and it gets worse and worse every time. Why keep letting yourself get to the point of Andrea Yates? Eventually you are going to break. Why keep having the children?

O'BOYLE: Nelda, do you think that's something they are going to bring up in this case is the fact she went on and had more children apparently after suffering so much from the first 4?

BLAIR: Probably in both stages, in the guilt and innocence stage and if she is found guilty, then when the jury is deciding on what penalty to impose, yes, I think that will probably come up. As to whether or not she had a part in that, obviously she did, but whether or not she made that decision or her husband made that decision, I mean, that will definitely be a part of the case, yes.

DEGUERIN: That is still presuming that this was a rational decision on her part. I think that when the evidence comes out, when the doctors testify, at least the doctors that are here close by, they will say that this is not a rational decision. This is a delusional decision. Now apparently the prosecution is having trouble finding someone, a psychiatrist or psychologist from around here that will say that, will say anything that will help the state. They had to go to California to find somebody to testify.

BLAIR: I think they were looking for the best expert that they could get for this case.

DEGUERIN: The best expert they could buy.

O'BOYLE: Chris?

CHRIS: Bennett (ph) , go ahead.

BENNETT: Yes. I agree with the defense. I think that medical community failed Andrea Yates, and I think that you see that she's been on all these medications. She has been in and out of mental institutions. She has previous cases of postpartum depression. You need to blame the doctors that let her out and have more kids.

O'BOYLE: Do you think her family failed her in any way by not, kind of, intervening and saying to the sister or mother, hindsight of course, is 20/20, but you wonder. You wonder if maybe in some way this blame doesn't kind of spread beyond any particular person?

We have another person calling from New York? Veronica, are you there.

CALLER: Yes.

O'BOYLE: Tell us how you feel about this.

CALLER: Well, my attitude is that we are one of the few countries in the civilized nation who do not recognize postpartum syndrome and treat it as it should be.

O'BOYLE: Did you suffer from it?

CALLER: No. Well yes, I did. I didn't know it at the time. Thank God it wasn't anything serious, but now looking back 40 years later I realize I did. I had nightmares.

O'BOYLE: Were you ever medicated or seek professional help?

CALLER: No. But what I'm saying is that in our country we do not treat mentally ill, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mental institution. Putting them in jail. We shouldn't. We should be treating people and treat them before they get to the point. We unfortunately made the decision that people can not be treated unless they want to be treated. That is a mistake. Because society is...

O'BOYLE: Thank you for that comment, Veronica. You seem to have been cut off. I'm sorry.

CHRIS: Greta is from Australia. Go ahead.

GRETA: Hello. I think that the entire society is culpable here for letting this woman who is obviously most depressed have five children and not having the support which she so obviously needs.

O'BOYLE: Thank you so much for that. This is something that we'll be following closely in the coming months. I want to thank our guests for coming today. All of our guests in the studio, those via satellite and audience members. Thank you for your input. You are really important here. I am Maureen O'Boyle. TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT returns again tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern. Now we are going to Wolf Blitzer with a look at the news right here on CNN.

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