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CNN Talkback Live

Why Couldn't Michael Jordan's Marriage Stay Together?

Aired January 08, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MAUREEN O'BOYLE, HOST: Why can't this marriage be saved?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see Michael doing more carpooling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BOYLE: Not anymore. The marriage fouled out. And for Michael and Juanita Jordan, the 12-year game appears to be over. Do fame and fortune poison family life? And when the game is over how do you split the winnings? She wants the three kids, their 25,000 square foot mansion and half the Jordan fortune. Is it too much to ask?

Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT. I am Maureen O'Boyle. Glad you can be here today. Marriage in the limelight and celebrity divorce. In play this hour, Michael and Juanita Jordan. All that money and they couldn't make a go of it. What went wrong?

Let's start with someone who has interviewed Jordan several times, Chet Coppock is a reporter with Sporting News Radio. Also with us, Sari Locker (ph) , author of an advice book for teenagers entitled "Sari Says."

Well, 12 years, three kids, what do you think went wrong -- Chet, what do you think?

CHET COPPOCK, SPORTING NEWS RADIO: I think, Maureen first of all, thank you for having me, No. 1.

O'BOYLE: Glad you are here.

COPPOCK: If you examine the -- thank you -- you examine what transpires with Michael Jordan and you go back to 1989, this wedding takes place in a rather unusual fashion. They were married in Las Vegas at the White Chapel around 2, 3:00 in the morning. They already have one child.

And also, let's begin with this premise: Michael Jordan is the most recognized athlete on the face of the earth save Muhammad Ali. And I think Michael basically has his own set of rules. And we find a very strong willed woman in Juanita Jordan, who now is 42 years of age. I think after Michael had his most recent retirement in 1998, that Juanita really thought now it is Michael's turn. Michael will stay home with the children. Michael will assume different roles as a father, I assume different parental responsibility.

Obviously he didn't. Michael Jordan is about golf, Michael Jordan is about gambling, Michael Jordan is about hanging around with the guys about traveling at a moment's notice. I think Juanita Jordan at the age of 42 has said, fame, idolatry, I never really wanted it to begin with, so as a result, I am going to carve a brand new chapter of my life. End of marriage. That is fini, and like you I'm concerned and curious about the prenup.

O'BOYLE: So you think she just had more than she could handle?

COPPOCK: I think so, yes.

O'BOYLE: Let's talk to somebody, real quick, Chet, who has interviewed Michael recently. Michael Leahy is a writer with the "Washington Post." He has covered Michael Jordan ever since he arrived in Washington, which you brought up a minute ago, Chet, the whole fact that he retired and then he went back to playing basketball with the Wizards. What do you think about that? Do you think, Michael, him going back to work, had something to do with the breakup?

MICHAEL LEAHY, "WASHINGTON POST": You know, I think it's very difficult, for starters, to speculate on the reasons behind anybody's divorce, especially when we are talking about a couple as private as the Jordans.

What is clear in all of this, is that we wouldn't be fascinated about this at all but for the fact that this is not merely a celebrated athlete, but because of the fact that he has lived in something of a bubble since he was in his late teens and a star at North Carolina.

O'BOYLE: The pressure must be enormous. It must be incredible for them.

LEAHY: But think of all the athletes, think of all the entertainers that go through divorces every day. We -- we give them scant notice because these things are relatively commonplace in society. The fact that we focus on a divorce like Jordan's or going back to another era, Joe Dimaggio's, is the fact that these men lived in an exquisite bubble under such control. And we can hardly imagine that they would at some point lose that bubble and have their frailties or vulnerabilities so visible to the rest of us. And I think that accounts for our fascination here.

O'BOYLE: One thing that is also interesting is that usually these marriages don't seem to last quite this long. Sari, what do you think about that? Twelve years, should we be saying it is surprising that it actually lasted 12 years?

SARI LOCKER, RELATIONSHIP EDUCATOR: Maureen, as you said, I have new advice book that is specifically for teenagers. And what I have learned in the process of working on that book is that issues about why people stay together or breakup or get divorced, really are deeply rooted in the way they were raised. So, to say that this marriage is ending just because he is a celebrity or just because he didn't go back to being a homemaker dad, instead of, you know, when he went back to basketball, we can't necessarily say this.

This could be that these two people were not equipped to be in a lifelong relationship. We see many, many marriages fail because people don't know how to make a commit forever.

O'BOYLE: You have someone in the audience, Chris?

CHRIS: This is Scott from Connecticut. Scott, what are you are your thoughts?

SCOTT: It's tough to tell what goes on behind closed doors, but I think Michael, being as competitive as he is, maybe got a little too wrapped in up in the golf and the casinos to take care of what else he needed to do.

O'BOYLE: You bring up a really good point. With somebody with as much drive as Michael has, he has obviously got a great deal of it, can a relationship and the stability of family really work? What do you think, Chet?

LOCKER: I think that...

COPPOCK: I think that -- sorry, go ahead.

O'BOYLE: Go ahead, Sari.

LOCKER: I think when it comes to an issue like this, it is not just his competitive nature. It is also the fact that millions of fans see him grab that ball and they want to feel the power that he has. So he constantly has a stream of fans that want to get close to him and the temptation of other women and the temptation of the gambling and of the spending and all those things really may overpower a man in a way that it does take him away from the calm commitment of a marriage.

O'BOYLE: Chet, you had something to say about that.

COPPOCK: Maureen, gambling is an issue which very simply can not by separated out from the personality of Michael Jordan. For example, going back to 1993, your viewers may recall a book authored by Richard Esquinas, entitled "Michael and Me: Our Gambling Addiction."

O'BOYLE: Well, Michael -- Michael did...

COPPOCK: ... Michael $1.6 million. So, Michael has always been a gambler. In fact, the late Chet Forty (ph), who directed Monday Night Football for so many years on ABC and who lost close to $15 million gambling, once told me -- and again, it's very difficult to say this, because no athlete, save Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth has every been given a more protective cover by the press than Michael Jeffrey Jordan -- it is difficult to say this, but I remember Chet Forty telling me on live radio here in Chicago that Michael Jordan in his opinion, fit the profile of a chronic degenerate gambler.

O'BOYLE: Well, Michael responded to those allegations by saying they simply were not true. In fact, he mentioned Juanita, and said that if I did have a gambling problem wouldn't my wife have come to me and said it?

He says he likes to gamble, he has gambled, but he responded to those allegations that he is an addict by saying it is simply not true.

Michael Leahy, let me get your take on that. The whole idea that this drive and ambition may play a part in this, or are you looking at this as a marriage that couldn't make it because of all the circumstances that many marriages don't make it?

LEAHY: I think the one thing to keep in mind is that Michael has real competitive urge. He needs games virtually all the time, whether they are on golf courses or in casinos or in arenas. He needs games, he loves games. Whether that, at times necessarily means that he has less time for other things, whether they be social and political causes, whether they be time with his wife, we really don't know. It's certainly a question.

I think more interesting though, is -- again, why we are so fixated on this relationship, this dissolution. I think it has to do...

O'BOYLE: Because they were the perfect couple for so many years when all these other celebrities...

LEAHY: We really don't know.

O'BOYLE: In the media we saw them as the couple that lasted whereas many other celebrities were breaking up.

LEAHY: You see, that's the fascinating thing here. We really don't know. They had the most private of relationships.

O'BOYLE: Did you see her with him in Washington? I was curious, have you seen Juanita in Washington with Michael since he has move there?

LEAHY: Juanita Jordan was in Washington to see Michael on several occasions. I never saw them. But the fact that we are talking about that and asking each other whether or not we had had sightings attest to the fact that this relationship was so private.

I think what is more interesting is that this was -- Michael Jordan arose in this culture because there was a perception that there was coarsening of the culture by athletes. We read about athletes involved in crimes, and rapes, et cetera. And here came this athlete along, at the perfect time when you have this confluence of celebrity and consumerism and glamour and this man was handsome, he was articulate and he was a star.

And for a while we said, this man can do no wrong. And even when he did, even when he made mistakes in casinos and on golf courses we largely overlooked it, saying that this man's greatness on the basketball court, mitigated those other things. What I think we are seeing now is that the bubble has been pierced. We are seeing that this man has frailties. O'BOYLE: Michael, we will talk more about what it will do to his image coming up later. Sari Locker, I know you have to leave. Thanks for joining us. Glad to have you here.

LOCKER: Thanks for having me.

O'BOYLE: Up next we will meet the attorney who steered David Justice and Mrs. Evander Holyfield through their divorces, and lots more TALK coming back.

Still ahead, if all is fair in love and war, what is fair in divorce? The 50/50 slit: Are Juanita Jordan's demands too high?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BOYLE: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT. I'm Maureen O'Boyle. Joining us now are John Mayoue, a divorce and family law attorney. He has represented several high profile clients in their divorces including David Justice, Mrs. Evander Holyfield, and Mrs. Newt Gingrich. Also with us is Cecile Weich, an attorney specializing in Women's legal rights and matrimonial law. As you know, Juanita Jordan says she wants half of everything. Do you think she is asking for too much, John?

JOHN MAYOUE, CELEBRITY DIVORCE ATTORNEY: No question. She is entitled to a just division, that is a fair division of the assets acquired during this marriage. But 50/50 would be absurd. It would be more than just a stretch.

O'BOYLE: Really? Cecil, I imagine you don't agree with that.

CECILE WEICH, DIVORCE ATTORNEY: I think she should ask for and get whatever the court will give her. Let her ask for the maximum, and whatever she settles for, she settles for.

O'BOYLE: The 25,000 square foot mansion, the list goes on and on, and half of everything. How do you define what he is worth? He is obviously worth what is in the bank, but what he has the potential of making, can she ask for part of that?

WEICH: It depends. If indeed he has made it or started to make it, in the years that he she were together she is entitled to some of his future earnings. For example, he has a lot of endorsement which he undoubtedly signed for in the past years she, is entitled to part of that.

O'BOYLE: John, Michael Leahy mentioned something earlier that is kind of interesting. We usually don't hear about these divorces in the process. We hear about them once they have been settled and this is a celebrity divorce and it is over with. But we are hearing about this when Juanita has just filed, and normally that is not the way the process goes. We find out about it long after it has been finished.

MAYOUE: I think that should give us all some pause here because clearly they would have tried to settle this matter prior to filing a complaint for divorce. That either means she's angry and they couldn't settle it or there is something amiss. Because most celebrities want to protect their good name. They want to keep these matters as quiet as they can possibly keep them.

O'BOYLE: Do you think, Chet, that Michael is going to try to keep this nice and quiet or do you think we will hear more about this?

COPPOCK: Maureen, about keeping in quiet, because as I mentioned earlier, and this goes back to the comments made by Michael Leahy, again, regarding Michael Jordan, what he does on the golf course, what he does with his personal life, no athlete has ever been given the blanket of protection given to Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

And again, regarding Michael's competitive drive, I thin that relates to the very dissolution of this marriage. Michael is not comfortable just staying in Highland Park, Illinois. Michael craves action. Michael craves being one of the guys. That is why he obviously returned to Washington first, as a front office executive of the Wizards, and now is an active basketball player, Michael simply cannot -- in my opinion -- adjust to what we would consider to be a traditional role as a husband and father.

Now one other point I would like to bring up and this has been mentioned to me several times today here in Chicago: No. 1 I guarantee you, this story was not dropped by either attorney Schiller or Juanita Jordan. This was picked up by the Chicago Tribune.

O'BOYLE: So they really didn't want it to go public.

COPPOCK: No. They did not want this story to go public. That would fly in the face of what Juanita Jordan is all about.

O'BOYLE: We have a caller from New York?

CALLER: Yes.

O'BOYLE: Go ahead.

CALLER: I feel, I disagree with Chet when he says that Juanita is sort of rebelling against Michael, that she wants a divorce for the fact that after he retired she thought that he would come back be and be the homely husband and he decided not to be.

I feel it's more for the money because if it were for that reason, I don't think that she would be requesting 50 percent of what he has.

O'BOYLE: Do you agree with that, John?

MAYOUE: I really don't. What's interesting about Michael, and this will pick up from Chet's point, he is the most public person probably in the world that we know the least about his private life. I think he has a substantial risk here in having his private life become public. I really don't think we know the true Michael Jordan.

O'BOYLE: Michael, do you agree with that? LEAHY: Well, I think one thing we know about Michael is that he yearns for control and order in all situations. Whether we are talking about the problems with his knees, the now famous tendinitis problem, whether we are talking about GMs or coaches in the past, Michael has a zest for control. I think your previous guests are right in saying that it's highly unlikely that Michael or Juanita Jordan wanted this to go public.

O'BOYLE: Do you think she gets more power in this divorce, Cecile, by the fact that Michael doesn't want to go public?

WEICH: No, no. Everybody is making a big fuss because this is Michael Jordan the same way they make a big fuss with every celebrity divorce. This divorce is no different from all of the hundreds of thousands of divorces all over the country. The only thing that makes a difference is that this is Michael Jordan. So what?

He has so many millions of dollars. He has been married 12 years to this woman. They have children. The matter will be settled just the same as any other matrimonial is settled or it will be tried and I doubt very much whether these people are going to go to trial.

(CROSSTALK)

WEICH: There is something else. I cannot believe that if they didn't want this to go public that indeed it is public. If they didn't want it to be public that file would have been sealed in the court. Someone leaked it because someone wanted it to be leaked.

MAYOUE: What makes this significantly different...

COPPOCK: Because it is Michael Jordan for it to go public.

MAYOUE: Excuse me, Chet, what makes it significantly different than other divorce cases he is he is a public figure and he has a name to protect.

WEICH: A lot of people are public figures.

MAYOUE: Excuse me, that name may be the most valuable asset in this case.

O'BOYLE: You guys, I know we could talk about this for another 20 minutes straight, but we have to break away right now as President Bush prepares to speak in Durham, New Hampshire. Thanks to all of our guests for joining us. Now here is Leon Harris at the CNN news desk.

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