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CNN Talkback Live
Are prisoners in Guantanamo Bay being abused?
Aired January 21, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Shackled. Gagged. In cages. Are the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay being abused?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wherever possible, we are attempting to treat these detainees in a humane fashion in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: So why is a former attorney general going to court on behalf of the al Qaeda suspects?
Also today, would you like to talk to this man?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's so many people here who are caught up in Afghanistan's on-going conflicts, that really don't seem to be anything of their own making. It's a sad feeling leaving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: War correspondent Nic Robertson is here to take your questions and journalist Saira Shah tells tails from beneath the veil.
And as the nation marks King day, is there still a long way to go?
What's wrong with this picture?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are problems to be sure, but those problems are not about racism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEAL BOORTZ, HOST: Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: AMERICA SPEAKS OUT. I'm Neal Boortz. This face for radio, I'll be here all week to host TALKBACK LIVE and we are going to start right now with all this fuss over the prisoners detained at Guantanamo Bay down there in Cuba. Humanitarian groups including the Red Cross, the British tabloids and now former Attorney General Ramsey Clark, and I'll pause while you all roll your eyes, they are all concerned about the treatment of these detainees.
If you take a look at these department of defense photographs, does it look to you like these people are having their civil rights violated? Now, in Britain, these photos prompted a good bit of criticism of the treatment of the detainees in Guantanamo by the Americans. Even Britain House of Commons is concerned. We have with us to start out the program Ann Clwyd. She's a member of the British Parliament and chairs the all-party parliamentary group on human rights.
And Ann, from across the pond, thank you so much for being with us this afternoon. Probably evening there by now.
ANN CLWYD, BRITISH PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Thanks for the invitation.
BOORTZ: Is it evening?
CLWYD: Yes. And dark.
BOORTZ: OK.
CLWYD: It's evening and it is very dark.
BOORTZ: It will be here, too.
Well, I was, quite frankly I was surprised, Ann, to wake up this morning and find out that the treatment of these prisoners, detainees, call them what you will, at Guantanamo had become such a controversy because from what I had seen, I saw certainly stern security measures, but beyond that, nothing that caused me any alarm. Would you explain your concerns?
CLWYD: Let me explain that I supported the war and the United States right from the very beginning. I thought the reaction was right in the circumstances of what happened on September the 11. However, for about three months now I have been asking about the prisoners in Afghanistan, not simply the prisoners in Cuba because they weren't there then and I failed to get answers.
I wanted to know how they were being categorized, who made the decision, who decided where they were going, whether they were staying in Afghanistan, being sent to Pakistan or sent to Cuba or to the U.S. And I simply couldn't get answers. And I have been concerned about the lack of answers right from the very beginning, because we were your partners in the war, and I would have thought we would have been consulted particularly now that we know the British prisoners were taken out of Afghanistan to Cuba without anybody telling Britain and that doesn't seem to me right.
BOORTZ: Will you accept that this is not exactly an ordinary war in the course of human events. This wasn't a uniformed army that we were fighting. The enemy was somewhat difficult to identify. And one thing about these prisoners, Ann, presumably any one of them would sacrifice his life at a moment's notice if he could manage to kill just one military American guarding them down there in Guantanamo. Now doesn't this call for some rather extraordinary security procedures?
CLWYD: Well, let me put it another way. I was in Geneva last week talking to the U.N. High commissioner for human rights, Mary Robinson, and to the director of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
And they all expressed concern about the treatment of the prisoners. They wanted them clearly defined as prisoners of war and anybody taken in a conflict, many conflicts all over the world now people don't wear uniforms. I doubt if people who fought in the Spanish Civil War many years ago wore uniforms. So I don't think that really is the test. They were apprehended, taken prisoner in a conflict, and they are, in my view, and in the view of many people, prisoners of war covered by the Geneva Conventions.
And it's not up to any individual, it's not up to Donald Rumsfeld or Tony Blair or anybody else to decide whether they are prisoners of war or not. That has to be determined under the Geneva Conventions which we are all signed up to by a court of law. And the position hasn't been determined by a court of law.
BOORTZ: A lot of people might want to know then, in your mind what is being done to or with these prisoners in Cuba right now by the American forces that would be illegal under the Geneva Convention?
CLWYD: I don't know the answer to that. I saw the pictures the same as everybody else. They appeared actually on the front pages of newspapers that don't normally support the government and the greatest horror what will they thought was their inhumane treatment was expressed by right wing newspapers in Britain, which I found quite surprising.
There has been a debate in the House of Commons this afternoon where our government minister made a statement about the treatment of the British prisoners, and we weren't able to get very clear answers on that either although he said that the people who'd interviewed them, not the Red Cross by the way, but British officials, were satisfied with their treatment.
So I'm not condemning the United States. I'm a friend of the United States. I'm simply asking questions. And like any good friend, I think it's right that if we think that something is wrong, it ought to be done in a different way, we should say so to you.
BOORTZ: I agree absolutely. Your support for our cause in the fight against terrorism then is still strong?
CLWYD: Oh yes. Absolutely. Not all labor MP supported the war. I certainly did right from the very beginning and expressed my support very volubly. We all understand what happened on September the 11 and our sympathy and concern for people who suffered has been very great indeed and we still support your attempts to get at the root of the people who are responsible for those terrorist acts, and we'd like to see them tried in a court of law.
BOORTZ: Thanks so much, Ann. Appreciate you spending some of your evening with us out of Great Britain.
Also joining us today on TALKBACK LIVE we have former attorney -- not Ramsey Clark -- he is not going to be here, but he and other civil rights advocates claim that the Afghan detentions violate the Geneva Convention. You've just heard some of that.
The U.S. Constitution also. They filed a petition demanding that the U.S. government go to court right now, file charges against these people. Here to talk about the rights of the detainees we have criminal defense attorney Stanley Cohen and we have Cliff May, the president of the foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
Now during the 80's Cliff -- oh, excuse me, that will be coming up in just a second -- but Cliff did report from the Middle East in the "New York Times" during the 80's. And Mr. Cohen, I must say to you, you kind of remind me of John Adams at this point, because I remember, have you read his biography.
STANLEY COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have. I kind of feel like John Adams this time.
BOORTZ: John Adams, one of the founders of our country defended the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre, claiming that basically they did what they needed to do to stay alive. What's your position on the detainees in Cuba right now.
COHEN: Look I find it interesting that 30 years ago when U.S. servicemen and women housed in cages, when they were exposed to the elements, when they were exposed to the elements, when they were exposed to mosquitoes, when they were interrogated, when they were shackled and there were hoods put on them, in Indo China, we rose up in indignation, as we should have and said this violative of the Geneva Convention.
Vietnam said wait a minute, these are illegal combatants and the Geneva Convention doesn't apply. Thirty years later we are doing the same thing. Now you asked what's going on that violates the Geneva Convention.
We know the attorney general and secretary of defense have said, they both said, that they are interrogating these persons and interrogating them forcefully. Under the Geneva Convention you can't do that. We know they are being housed in cages with bags over their heads subjected to the elements. We know you can't do that under the Geneva Convention.
The record is clear, the fact of the matter is when we want this to be a war, so that we can use military tribunals we say it is a war. But when the war protections kick in, in other words, under the Geneva Convention we say they are illegal combatants. It either is a war or it is not and because it is, the Geneva Convention applies.
Let's not become what we despise in so many others for so long. BOORTZ: Stanley is about to spin out of his seat.
CLIFF MAY, FDN. FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I really am. Let me clarify a few points and make a few corrections. One, these prisoners are all being treated humanely. They are getting medical treatment. They are getting three meals a day and those meals are halal, which is the Muslim equivalent of what would be kosher for Jews. They are allowed to practice their religion. The have seen the Red Cross. They get medical attention.
They are being treated well. But we do want to interrogate them. These people, many of them have been trained as terrorists. They may know of other terrorist attacks being plotted right now. The idea that we shouldn't be allowed to interrogate them, and understand, if the Geneva Convention were to apply to them the way Stanley wants, all they would have to give is their name, rank, and serial number.
That would mean that more Americans and others would die. These people were trained not according to the rules of war. They were trained as terrorists to kill innocent civilians, particularly to kill infidels, Jews, Christians, Hindus.
COHEN: Cliff, are you willing to make a differentiation between interrogation and torture?
MAY: Absolutely. You can interrogate somebody without torturing. And in fact, to the best of our knowledge, torture is not the most effective way to interrogate somebody. Now, these people are not at Club Med, they are not at the Guantanamo Hilton, they are being treated in a humane fashion, but they are being treated as suspects for acts of terrorism, and they are being treated as very dangerous criminals who would kill civilians, who would kill their guards and who would die to do it if they could. And they believe they will be sent to paradise if that happens. And that is why they have to be treated in this way.
BOORTZ: Gentlemen, if I may, let's take a short pause. Everybody regroup. You, at home, you can put in your two cents-worth. Take the TALKBACK LIVE on-line viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. Let us know if you think the Afghan detainees are being treated humanely. Let us know if you care. We'll be right back folks. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOORTZ: OK, welcome back. We are talking about whether or not the suspected al Qaeda, Taliban terrorists being held in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba are somehow being abused. And we have Stanley Cohen and Cliff May. They are our guests and are somewhat on opposite sides of this question.
Gentlemen, one minute we have a young lady in the back of the audience that has an opinion on this. Go ahead.
CHRIS: This is Mary Ann -- go ahead Mary Ann.
MARY ANN: Well after September the 11th and all the chaos and the death and destruction, you have to think back on that before you get too concerned about these people's treatment.
MAY: Let me respond in this way. We do want to treat these people humanely. We are treating these people humanely. But what Stanley is saying is we should not have a right to -- let me finish. Let me finish, and then you can criticize me -- what Stanley is saying is that we should not have the right to question them, to interrogate them, to find out what they know about al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.
Under Geneva Conventions would they have to say anything more than their name rank and serial number?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Would they have to say anything more?
BOORTZ: Stanley, you do have a tough task here. Americans are so upset that, rightly or wrongly, they are just not in a mood to be concerned about the civil rights of the people that.
MAY: Civil rights are not being violated.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: The Geneva Convention and international law are set up for all parties to obey by the signatures, no matter whether the times are good or bad. The arguments being raised here are the arguments that have been raised by the Japanese against U.S. soldiers in World War II, by Vietnam against U.S. soldiers during Indo-China. Time after time...
BOORTZ: Stanley, what would you change right now at Guantanamo? What would be the first thing you would change?
COHEN: Two things. No. 1 is, you have to get them out of the cages. Get them out of the elements. You have to get them indoors.
BOORTZ: Stanley, you know they are building a permanent facility for them right now.
COHEN: I don't know anything and neither do you, and neither does your other guest. No. 2, the Geneva Convention is clear. The Geneva Convention says prisoners of war may not be interrogated, let alone forcefully, as the government says they are. If they are prisoners of war and if this is a war, you can't conveniently just abrogate our treaties by saying we need the information.
BOORTZ: Stanley, tourists pay big money to go to that area of the world and live in those conditions in tents like that, so it's not exactly torture.
COHEN: You want to know something, we said the same thing about slaves. We said gee guys, you have it far much better on plantations than you had before. The reality of it is, we have a convention, we are a signator and we are violating it right now.
MAY: Stanley, if I can get a word in edgewise, you are now admitting that you don't want these people interrogated, which is...
COHEN: What I'm admitting is the Geneva Convention says they can't be interrogated.
MAY: Secondly, Stanley, let me address that, Stanley. Secondly, Stanley, I do not agree, as you apparently do, that all terrorists are by definition prisoners of war. Terrorists are different.
COHEN: I don't know that these people are terrorists and neither do you. You don't know. You are assuming. You are simply saying anyone the government says are terrorists is in violation of the Geneva Convention and it's OK.
BOORTZ: Gentlemen, the bell rung just for a second. And I believe we have a phone call here real quick if I could -- from New York. Go ahead, please.
CALLER: Hello?
BOORTZ: Go ahead, please.
CALLER: Well what I feel is that once these terrorists decided to take away our rights to live as Americans, they automatically lost their rights to have such things, such things that they had in Afghanistan. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care how they treat them.
I was there on September 11 in lower Manhattan and I can tell you there is nothing they can do to take away how I feel right now.
BOORTZ: Ma'am, I would suggest to you that one of the things that makes this country great or better, if you will, is that we do care about how people like this are treated. Go ahead, if you would.
MAY: Of course we do. By the way, there were three British al Qaeda suspected that were visited by British authorities, according to the BBC and by the Red Cross. All of them are in good condition. They have all had medical treatment. And they didn't have any complaints about it.
Now one of the reasons why is probably because they are doing better right now than they were in caves in Afghanistan, or than they would be doing were we to turn them over to the Afghani authorities at this point.
BOORTZ: Which is an option.
MAY: Which is an option.
COHEN: Then we should pursue that option. If these people are criminals, put them on trial and give them the rights under international law. Don't abrogate treaties just because you want to get the benefit of unconstitutional illegal interrogation.
MAY: Stanley, you know...
BOORTZ: In our audience in Atlanta.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Jenna from California.
JENNA: First of all just a question to the two guests. Where do we draw the line exactly between forced interrogation and torture? And secondly just a comment as a grand-daughter of three U.S. veterans who fought for U.S. during World War II, I personally don't think that my grandparents fought for the right -- for the rights of American government to torture, and to not care about its own detainees personally. We are the civilized world and we need to stay that way.
MAY: Nobody is being tortured. There is not a shred of evidence to that. I hope Stanley will at least say and agree with me there's not a shred of evidence.
COHEN: What I would say is that Some of the conduct similar to that used in Vietnam constitutes, under international law, torture. You can't keep people in cages in the elements, you can't keep people shackled walking around with bags over their heads. And can't do forced interrogation.
BOORTZ: Gentlemen it is time for you two to meet up somewhere and have a drink and make up and become friends. Stanley Cohen and Cliff May, thank you very much for joining us. Really do appreciate it. Torture. That is an interesting word, and sometimes the legal definitions can be a little bit tricky. Folks, you stay right where you are. We are going to be right back at TALKBACK LIVE.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up, war correspondent Nic Robertson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: Initially Taliban officials told us we could stay if we accepted they couldn't protect us. What journalist would walk away from the hub of such a humanitarian, political, diplomatic and military story?
Alfredo and I chose to stay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Nic answers all your questions and film maker Siara Shah tells you about life beneath the vail. They join us next on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: Too much glass in the windows for my liking in case of a missile attack. But we got our backup systems ready: Spare batteries and a generator to keep us on air, a high tech link with the rest of the world, a tiny box digitizing our TV picture and beaming it to Atlanta by satellite, the humble videophone, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for front-line reporters intent on getting the story out.
The obvious failing, however, no matter how high-tech, if there is no reporter there is no story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOORTZ: Welcome back. This is a story. Our next guest has a lot of titles. CNN calls him a senior international correspondent. We'll call him Nic Robertson. He joins us along with his photographer Alfredo Delara.
Alfredo also did reporting for CNN Espanol, using the videophone and also with us, and you have seen her incredible documentary, Saira Shah, her documentary called "Beneath The Veil" gave us a pretty shocking view of the Afghan women under the Taliban regime.
Nic, what surface fascinates me, I'm in the presence of greatness here, you were the only western reporter in Afghanistan on September the 11 when the news hit. Two quick questions. First of all, how long did it take for you to realize what had happened back here in the United States, and when you did realize it, how long before you knew who was behind it and what kind of danger you might be in over there?
ROBERTSON: I happened to have called in to Atlanta right around the same time, right around the time the first plane flew into the World Trade Center. After that I couldn't really get much out of our folks here.
They were way too busy. My wife is a journalist for CNN in London. I called her, I was talking with her a few minutes later when the second plane went into the second tower. As soon as that happened, I knew what it meant for us in Afghanistan. I knew it meant that the world's attention was going to focus on us in the very near future. It seemed to me very clear that Osama bin Laden was very likely behind these attacks. And just one post script of the little bit of tape we there, those windows did, in fact, blow out about three or four weeks later when a missile hit right outside our office.
BOORTZ: Who's missile? One of ours...
ROBERTSON: It was one of our, from the United States, targeting Taliban armored personnel carrier outside.
BOORTZ: OK, you are a journalist and you have found yourself in danger a number of times before. But was there any one response going on in your head at that time, like I need to be somewhere other than here.
ROBERTSON: No. I needed to be right there. That's where the story was. If I ran, I was just getting away from the story. The Taliban didn't want us around because they didn't want to us see what was happening. They didn't want us to see the mood change, whatever.
They didn't want us there. We had to fight to stay and in the end they got their way and they pushed us out of the country. But I think any journalist who figures that he can remain safe is going to want to stay there. And that was exactly how we felt.
BOORTZ: Did you think you could remain safe? ROBERTSON: We scoped out some locations inside the hotel where we figured we could hide. Our local staff, after a few days decided because they were from Pakistan it wouldn't be safe for them. They left. That was almost a turning moment for us but, we talked to some folks I had known over years in that hotel, they convinced me they could keep us safe and get us out of town and they made me feel good.
BOORTZ: Now which city are we talking about?
ROBERTSON: We are talking about Kabul. The capital. We are talking about a big ethnic make up and we can get into one ethnic community away from another and maybe be safe.
BOORTZ: What was the reaction of the people in Kabul when this happened? Were they celebratory or concerned or what?
ROBERTSON: I think they began to realize over a few days what the implications could be, but initially people were expressing concern. They consider themselves in Afghanistan as being the average person, let's say in Afghanistan, considers all the wars that have happened there to be a result of outside influence.
They consider themselves to be victims in the last 22 years of conflict. So, they were expressing sympathy for what was happening in United States. Remember, the average person in Afghanistan is not a Taliban. Is not al Qaeda. It's an average guy who has gone through 22 years of a war.
BOORTZ: Joe six-pack trying to survive.
ROBERTSON: Exactly.
BOORTZ: OK, Alfredo, you weren't there on the 11th. When did you join up?
ALFREDO DELARA, CNN PHOTOGRAPHER: Yes, I was. We were there -- we were covering the Shelter Now Trial. The Christians that were accused of proselytizing.
BOORTZ: The two young ladies that were later...
DELARA: It was a larger group, I think, but yes, highlighted by the two young ladies, yes.
BOORTZ: Did you have any sort of a run response? You know, listen, I could be doing travel documentaries for "National Geographic."
DELARA: No. I have learned to love those people like Nic. You fall in love with them. We are not talking, again, about Taliban or al Qaeda. And I know it is not maybe the correct thing to say, you know, you really like Afghans, but they are an amazing people -- amazing people, and as Nic pointed out, they have been through this before. This is not new for them and they have survived strictly through resistance, and it is something they do well. BOORTZ: When you said we are not talking about the Taliban or the al Qaeda, but here is a question, just off the wall: Since you were there, with them, dealing with them, talking with them, living with them, any redeeming features on the part of those people, the al Qaeda, the Taliban? Anything redeeming about them at all that you could bring up at this point?
DELARA: At least in dealing with me, I always found them to be very straight forward, the Taliban. Al Qaeda was this ghost.
BOORTZ: Well, they weren't Afghan either, were they?
DELARA: Well, exactly, yes. I'm talking about Taliban-Afghans. In fact, one of them -- you were speaking earlier about the detainees. You know, the highest level Taliban official in custody right now is Zaeef, the spokesman, who we had very much contact with.
BOORTZ: That we saw from Pakistan night after night.
DELARA: He was always very straight forward with us. He didn't seem to me to be an evil guy. Then again, he was a spokesman. He wasn't an armed, you know, militia fighter although he did play a large role in how they were seen by the rest of the world.
BOORTZ: OK. Now, Saira, first of all, the documentary, chilling but beautiful work. I mean, how could somebody that lives in this country watch that documentary and not feel just terrible empathy, especially for the women of Afghanistan. But were there women in Afghanistan, your documentary "Beneath The Veil", that accepted the role that the Taliban put on them and accepted it willingly?
SAIRA SHAH, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: There are some women who did that. Afghanistan is a very traditional society and there are some women even today in Kabul who still wear the burka. And in times, there's a very uncertain -- I think women tend to want to sort of hide themselves away more.
As far as I'm concerned, the veil is perhaps a little bit of a red herring. I'm actually interested in, you know, what women rights are. You know, "Beneath The Veil", if you like. I mean, do women have access to education, jobs, if they want to? And that was really not happening under the Taliban.
BOORTZ: But that access is restored now in large part.
SHAH: It's technically restored, but in fact, the climate is such that it's going to be a long time before women really share equal rights and opportunities.
BOORTZ: From Tennessee, we have Maria on the telephone right now -- like to ask Saira Shah a question. Go ahead, Maria.
MARIA: Hello. It's good to see all of you back in the States safe. My question is do they practice female genital mutilation in their area, and if so, how can it ever be stopped? SHAH: Not in Afghanistan, actually. I mean, there are parts of the world that they do practice that. And I should say that from my point of view, it has nothing to do with, you know, it's not Islam at all. It's a sort of perversion of Islam, but not in Afghanistan, thankfully.
BOORTZ: Wish we could just cancel the afternoon CNN programming schedule and talk to these three for a few more hours. But we'll be back with them for some time any way. Time for a news break. We'll continue this in just a minute. This is TALKBACK LIVE.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BENEATH THE VEIL")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Simply driving past the headquarters of the Taliban's notorious secret police is enough to terrify our translator and us. Their spies watch everything, as we soon find out.
Minutes after arriving in Kandahar marketplace, we are in big trouble. The Taliban arrest us on the spot for filming illegally. We switched to a hidden camera.
(APPLAUSE)
BOORTZ: OK. Welcome back, TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out". I'm Neal Boortz. We are talking with CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson, his cameraman, Alfredo DeLara, who also reports in Espanol in CNN, and documentary filmmaker Saira Shah. And Chris is lurking around in the background with somebody with a question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Petana (ph). Go ahead, Petana.
PETANA: Hi. My name is Petana Piersahd (ph). I'm from Afghanistan. I just like to congratulate both of you by doing such a great and wonderful job. And I'm sure that's brought a lot of attention to everybody in the world. And my question is going to be for both of you. How have you guys been treated in Afghanistan? And myself, I mean I was watching everybody, and I'm sure everybody has done such a great job, but it has been, like, really, really dangerous time for anybody to actually going to that country.
Although I lived in Afghanistan 15 years ago, I know the situation is getting like really worse right now. I just want to know is anybody in Afghanistan actually they know who bin Laden is because myself, I mean, until '96, I never knew who was he -- I mean, where he came from. And my second question will be for Saira. I mean, do you speak Farsi and how come you decide to do this film? Thank you.
ROBERTSON: I think perhaps to answer your first question, there was a beginning in Afghanistan of people to become aware of the Arabization, if you will, of the Afghan situation and begin to be aware of how much under the influence, or how much Arab influence, if you will, al Qaeda influence there was inside Afghanistan. And in many ways, the Taliban perhaps only had a limited life span left in Afghanistan because of the way that they were running the country and because of this influence. And there was a lot of resentment to the wealth and some of the ideas that some of the al Qaeda and the Arabs who congregated around them inside Afghanistan were beginning to be brought out there.
We would see on the streets, people would point, you know, these people here are Arabs, and you would see them walking on the street. That was very noticeable.
BOORTZ: Was there a sense of -- in a sense, is it accurate to say that the al Qaeda victimized Afghanistan just as they did other nations?
ROBERTSON: One could make that argument. Certainly, the way it would be seen by Afghans that this was another group, another nation, that was involving themselves, as the Soviet Union had done in the 1980s, involving themselves in the affairs of the Afghans to exploit the situation for their own benefit. And certainly, that was becoming a very prevalent view.
BOORTZ: And, Saira, she wanted to know about your documentary. What was behind it? Do you speak the language?
SHAH: Yes, I do speak the language.
I just wanted to add something, actually, about the al Qaeda thing, which is two points, one that sort of going back from way back when. Really, the Arabs have a very different culture and mentality to the Afghans. And, you know, I first started going to Afghanistan in the 80's. And, you know, then the Arabs were a bits of a joke. But nowadays, you know, when we were going back sort of earlier last year, people were really quite frightened of them and didn't like them -- very, very different people.
And then on the film, yes, my family originally -- my father's family comes from Afghanistan. And so that was one of the reasons I wanted to go back to Afghanistan. It was before September the 11th. And really, this is a country that I fell in love with as an adult. And, you know, one of the things we wanted to do with the film was just show what an amazing place it is, but also what terrible things were happening to, you know, wonderful people under the Taliban.
BOORTZ: Well, I asked the question during the break because this fascinates me. The TV images of Afghanistan didn't make for much of a Travel Channel documentary, for sure. It wasn't all that attractive, but all three of you are telling me what an absolutely beautiful country, physically, that this really is.
ROBERTSON: If you like wild outdoors, rugged countryside, wild mountains, sense of the untamed and the untouched, Afghanistan is the place to go to. In many ways, it's been unspoiled by a century of industrialization. However, it is spoiled by 22 years of war and a lot of landmines, but it is staggeringly beautiful. Mountain ranges extending down out of the Himalayas, the Hindu Kush and deserts, vast deserts, with nomadic people still wandering around. An incredibly beautiful country, but what has happened to it is not so beautiful.
BOORTZ: Now, I asked you this question. Is it governable? Can a nation built upon some modicum of freedom and rule of law possibly rise out of what is now Afghanistan?
SHAH: What I'd like to say about that is in a way, it's a little bit unfair to expect a people that has been at war for over 20 years, a whole generation that has grown up without education, that haven't had a proper government for over 20 years, suddenly overnight to be able to create a wonderful, stable, democratic government. It's not fair to expect that. And I think the Afghans need a lot of help on that.
And also, there is a culture of many, many different warlords and commanders in Afghanistan, each of whom rules one little tiny area. It's not an ideological problem. It's a problem of, again, a generation that's grown up -- when a young boy gets to 12 or 13 years old, there is no employment. There is no particular agriculture or so on. So his choice really may be starve or join the local commander who will give him a gun and, you know, three square meals a day. And that militates against peace. It's in their interest to keep Afghanistan at war.
BOORTZ: Nic, we have a call for you. It's Kim from Illinois. Go ahead, Kim.
KIM: Hi, Nic. I just wanted to let you know that I followed you from day one. I was there and scared with you and cried with you when you were thrown out of the country. I followed you when you were the very first reporter to be let back in, of course, by the Taliban. And I just wanted to let you know that I cried when you went back to ground zero. I'm just very proud of you and feel like you are my brother. I was very proud. Outstanding work, Nic.
ROBERTSON: Thank you very much. It was a very moving moment.
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BOORTZ: That's unusual. You were in Afghanistan on September the 11th, then you made a visit to ground zero. What were your reactions and impressions?
ROBERTSON: In Afghanistan, the destruction was on a widespread scale, all over the country. And I thought, in some ways, that may prepare me. But what I found at ground zero was a destruction so concentrated in an area, so many people lives affected, the focus of so much thought in New York and around the country.
But what impacted me the most because, of course, when I arrived there, the structures of the building that had been pulled away are gone. The work is now below ground. There was nothing to see, only to guess at how tall the buildings were and where they were. But what really impacted me is just how this is still felt by New Yorkers, by people around this country, how much this is still a sensitive issue. Children, parents living close by told me their children wanted to double lock their doors at night because they are afraid when they go to bed. Business professionals, other people who live in New York, who go about normal lives, who are, as yet, unable to pluck up the courage and go down and take a look. It impacts you deeply.
BOORTZ: The people of Afghanistan right now -- of course, Americans are always concerned, gee, what do they think about us. Now, we have just expended a great deal of military ordnance on the countryside of Afghanistan. How is America now viewed, not by the Taliban, but by the people of that country, those that are aware of just what this story has been?
ROBERTSON: Well, let's not forget that America has provided the bulk of the international aid coming into Afghanistan for the last number of years. Almost every sack of flour you see going into that country has U.S.A written on it. And it's certainly been the feeling of a lot of people we have talked to over the years there who know a that this level of aid is coming in that they are grateful for it. They know what it means for them. And they still look to the international community for that help now because they realize it's possible to get more, more so than ever.
BOORTZ: Did those food packets make a difference?
ROBERTSON: That's a very difficult question to answer. We didn't have the freedom to wander around the countryside and speak with those people under Taliban areas of control -- very difficult to answer that question.
BOORTZ: Alfredo, your feeling on how they look at Americans and America right now.
DELARA: Well, I think they have always admired the Americans. We are talking also about the Kandahar airport, and it's the only building you seem to recognize as something.
BOORTZ: Well, it looked like Dulles.
DELARA: Yes. Well, it was built by the Americans. And also that road that comes up from -- through the Panjshir -- sorry, through the...
ROBERTSON: Right up from Herat there.
DELARA: That's right. That was all built, that huge road that crosses the country was built by the Americans as well. So they have always admired the Americans' ingenuity. And I think they were let down by the Americans when they left, when the Cold War was deemed to be over. And I think there may be some resentment there that the Americans turned their back on us, and maybe that's where Osama found his foothold. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) these people were abandoned and here, I can save you.
BOORTZ: OK. Alfredo, Nic, Saira, thank you so much. Fascinating and why don't you all just come over and do my radio show with me one day?
ROBERTSON: Whenever you like.
BOORTZ: It's a great topic.
And, folks, please stay tuned. Let's discuss these 50 governors of the states and not one of them is Hispanic or black. Something wrong there? Back in a moment. TALKBACK LIVE.
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ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, the nation celebrates the King holiday. Is this the face of his dream?
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BOORTZ: OK, everybody, welcome back. Did you see this? The cover story, "USA Today". We were talking about this on my program this morning. It says, "these are Americans, governors, no blacks, no Hispanics. And it criticizes the U.S. Senate for -- or the U.S. for lacking diversity. I like this line. It says that, "these jobs are out of minorities' reach and Martin Luther King Junior's dream of equal opportunities is far from being realized."
OK. Now here to talk about that, the lady we call BQ, It's Blanquita -- hi, BQ.
BLANQUITA CULLUM, RADIO AMERICA TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Neal, how are you doing?
BOORTZ: How are you doing, hon? It's Blanquita Cullum, former reporter, radio talk show host, for Radio America, a friend of mine. And Joe Madison, former executive director of the NAACP in Detroit, is going to be with us in a few minutes. He's a Radio One talk show host, known as the "Black Eagle". I thought that was Ken Hamblin, Blanquita. He's the pilot.
CULLUM: Well, heck, he's on our board of directors. Let's give him the slack.
BOORTZ: OK. Yes, that's right. Ken's the black avenger, and of course, I am known as mighty whitey. Now, Blanquita, have you had a chance to talk about this today? You are Hispanic. We have...
CULLUM: I'm Mexican and American.
(CROSSTALK)
BOORTZ: We have 50 governors and not a Hispanic governor out there. Does that mean that the dream is not alive?
CULLUM: No. The dream is definitely alive, but unfortunately it's really, really hard for these candidates. For example, you know, you have Bill Richardson who was, of course, in the cabinet. He was a member of the Congress, a wonderful politician, thinking about going out and running for the governor's race in New Mexico.
You have to look at the lower level. You have to look at the city council, the mayors, the judges, the state reps, the state senators, this is where the farm club starts. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of money and you don't get elected by being just a candidate that is based on diversity. You have to be a good mainstream kind of candidate.
For example, in the commonwealth of Virginia, here you have the first black governor, Doug Wilder, was not elected because he was a black, because he was popular. People liked his platform. He did a very good job and that's how he was able to be successful. You have some people that were looking at, for example, Henry Bonilla, who's from San Antonio, my old hometown, who is a very good friend of the president. We're looking at the slot now being vacated by Senator Phil Gramm. That could be a very good launching pad for someone like Henry Bonilla to become Senator Henry Bonilla.
You have situations with these mayors like Federico Pena, Henry Cisneros, who had problems later, but he was being considered to be a vice president. He could have been a vice president or a president of the United States not because he was a Latin, but because he was charismatic. People liked him. They liked his politics.
BOORTZ: And, Blanquita, he was a Texas aggie.
CULLUM: Well, I mean...
BOORTZ: Hey.
CULLUM: I went to UT. Don't hold that against him.
BOORTZ: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) OK, Chris, you have got somebody here in the audience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Mickey (ph), and Mickey is from Georgia -- Mickey.
MICKEY (ph): I just want to make a comment. In my opinion, somebody saying so many governors should be black is the same as someone from the Klan saying none of the governors should be black. It's still picking somebody based on color instead of their merit.
CULLUM: Right. You are exactly right about that.
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You know what? I think that that would be something that Martin Luther King would support as well. You know, one of the things -- when you think about the protest at that time, they weren't black power. They were black and white together, black and white together. They didn't want separation. They wanted integration.
And a successful candidate doesn't represent just one community or one person, but all. And that makes us all stronger, to the extent that we are Hispanic or black, well, that's kind of nice. It adds kind of the spice to what we call the melting pot, but that we are big enough to represent all that makes us a champion. And we do have some champions. We need more, definitely.
BOORTZ: OK, Blanquita, I'm going to try to play devil's advocate while we try to get Joe hooked up to a microphone here.
CULLUM: I would expect that.
BOORTZ: OK. And I'm good at this. OK, so...
CULLUM: Yes you are.
BOORTZ: We have the Voting Rights Act. And the Voting Rights Act allows various state legislatures to intentionally carve out congressional districts where there is almost a 100 percent guarantee that a minority is going to be elected to the Congress, be it Hispanic or black. You can't gerrymander in state elections.
Therefore, it is very, very difficult to create the black voting majority or the Hispanic voting majority that is going to lead to a black or a Hispanic governor. Is there any solution to that problem?
CULLUM: Yes. Well, first of all, look at David Dinkins, OK. David Dinkins got elected by the 90 percent of the black vote in New York, but then he lost to Giuliani because he wasn't doing a good job. He had had a great support originally from the white Jewish voter. But he did a bad job and he lost to Giuliani.
We have to have candidates that are going to be good candidates. They are not going to get elected because of the skin color or their gender. And the other problem is you have got to get blacks and Hispanics out to vote. They have a poor track record of turning out for the vote. I mean, that is -- we have to face that and be honest about it. And I think that we see groups like South West Voter Registration, which have tried to get out there and drive the Hispanic vote. They've found that the women turned out more than the men. The black vote has been low. I mean, even the white vote is low, but if you are trying to get more minorities in office, then the minorities have to get out and vote and they have to recognize how critical it is to turn out.
BOORTZ: OK, Joe got caught in traffic, but ladies and gentlemen, here he is: Joe Madison. Joe, you and I have had some fun before. We are just going to give you the last minute. Has the dream died?
(LAUGHTER)
Well, I mean, Joe...
CULLUM: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BOORTZ: It's not my fault you are late, Joe. You could have had more time had you been here.
JOE MADISON, RADIO ONE TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I have seen every floor of CNN in Washington. (LAUGHTER)
CULLUM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
BOORTZ: OK. Tell us, Joe, what about this U.S.A. story -- "U.S.A Today"?.
MADISON: Look, let's be honest. Ten, 20 years from now, it won't be a story. We know that politics is a combination of you have got to develop a farm team. You have got to have friends and supporters with deep pockets. It is obviously going to be -- demographics is going to have a lot to do with it. And to sit here and say that Dinkins didn't do a good job or this candidate didn't do a good job, it depends on from whose perspective.
And the bottom line of the matter is that that "USA Today" story I thought was a good analysis of what has happened. But keep in mind that African-Americans have actually only had the right to vote...
BOORTZ: Got about 15 seconds, Joe.
MADISON: ... 15 percent of them in this country since the last 45 years. We have come a long way. We have got a long way to go.
BOORTZ: OK, Blanquita, thank you. Joe, I'm glad we got your movie star good looks on the screen here before the...
(CROSSTALK)
I know. But listen, you made it. Hey, folks, we are out of time. And,. again, thanks to Blanquita Cullum -- good friend of mine -- Joe Madison. Joe, we'll see you in Washington some time soon, I hope. Glad you all could join us. And thanks also to the studio audience. Judy is next.
I'm Neal Boortz right back here tomorrow. I'll try to do this a little bit better. Take care everybody.
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