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American Morning

International Outcry Over Way Detainees Being Treated Continues

Aired January 22, 2002 - 07:09   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Moving now back to the war in Afghanistan, 14 more detainees arrived at the U.S. naval station in Guantanamo Bay yesterday, bringing the total number of prisoners held at Camp X-Ray this morning to 158. Now, the Bush administration continues to be on the defensive as the international outcry over the way the detainees are being treated continues.

CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The Pentagon says the detainees are getting culturally appropriate meals, medical treatment and are allowed to pray. A Muslim cleric will now visit Camp X-Ray. A sign has been posted, showing them which way to turn to Mecca at prayer time.

The detainees are classified as unlawful combatants, not officially prisoners of war. The Pentagon says that is because the Taliban and al Qaeda are more terrorists than soldiers. Still, the U.S. legal position is that they are being treated in most instances as if they were POWs under the Geneva Conventions. But critics say the Bush Administration is playing nothing more than a word game.

WILLIAM SCHULZ, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: If it walks like a war, talks like a war, sounds like a war, has been called a war by the president and every network in the United States, then there might be reason to believe that those who have been taken into custody as a result of military action are, indeed, prisoners of war.

STARR: Amnesty International has expressed concern over the cells in which the detainees are being held, eight by eight chain link fence units which some call cages. Many are waiting to see the results of the current inspection by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

MICHAEL NOONE, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: If the Red Cross says that these measures are not appropriate under the circumstances, the U.S. has a major problem, not that a court can intervene, but simply that there will be a general consensus that what the U.S. is doing is wrong.

STARR: The detainees now will be interrogated to see what they may know about future terrorist attacks or the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. After that, they could face a military tribunal, the U.S. criminal court system or deportation back to their countries. Some could be held indefinitely.

(on camera): On Tuesday, a federal judge will consider a petition by former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and other civil rights advocates challenging the government and demanding that the detainees be brought before a court to face specific charges.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And in just a few hours, a federal judge in Los Angeles will hear a petition from civil rights advocates protesting the U.S. treatment of the detainees at Camp X-Ray. They claim the Afghan suspects are being held in violation of their international civil rights.

The petitioners are led by former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark, who joins us now in New York. Thank you very much for dropping by our studios this morning. Welcome.

RAMSEY CLARK, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Good morning.

ZAHN: Can you explain to us, if, in fact, these detainees are determined to be unlawful combatants, as the Pentagon describes them, and not prisoners of war, what civil rights they're entitled to?

CLARK: Well, everybody is entitled to civil rights. If they're prisoners of war, they can't be questioned and they shouldn't have been detained the way they have and questioned the way they have. If they're not prisoners of war and if you're going to detain them, you've got to charge them with a crime and present them to a magistrate to determine whether there's probable cause to hold people. You just can't grab people because it's a country where you can bomb and create all this refugee situation and then have warlords grab people and selectively turn them over to you.

You've got to protect their rights. They are on soil that is under the control of the United States government. It shouldn't be. It's a violation of the sovereignty of Cuba. But under the Guantanamo Bay Agreement going back to 1901, we've kept that part of Cuba which we coerced from them in the first place and we're putting them there. There is no basis for holding them there and there's no basis for holding them until you see charges and they are presented to a magistrate.

We should want that for everybody. We should certainly want it in this situation. The United States stands for the rule of law.

ZAHN: The Pentagon hasn't told us who these men are yet or what they will ultimately be accused of doing. But what is your sense of who these men are? Are they terrorists or are they prisoners of war?

CLARK: Well, the first problem is they haven't told us, have they? So what are we supposed to know? And how can you just pick people up and conceal their identity, put hoods over their heads, chain them and drag them around and put them in what we call kennels, which you usually think of as places for dogs, treat them that way and never say who they are and never say what charges they are?

We don't know whether there will be charges, do we? We don't know whether there's any basis for charges. But if there is, let's be out in the open and let's make the charges and let's see whether they're legitimate and let's see whether the arrests were illegal in the first place and then, and if all that holds up, then let them go to trial. But don't just hold them.

ZAHN: Do you acknowledge that these men are dangerous? Let me play for you a small part of an exclusive interview CNN got last night with Brigadier General Michael Lehnhert. He is the security commander of the Guantanamo camp and he had this to say about what was going on down in Cuba now with these detainees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MICHAEL LEHNERT, JOINT TASK FORCE COMMANDER: These individuals are dangerous people. They have taken up arms. They were captured on the battlefield. They were brought here and we start out by showing them that we are actually in charge, and then begin slowly to relax the conditions based upon the, you know, their own behavior. Most of them, frankly, are responding to that rather well and I would say that the number that are acting out are in the minority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: They may be in the minority, Mr. Clark, but there have been reports of these detainees trying to attack their guards. What is your concern about the level of danger that exists down there?

CLARK: My concern is for human rights. And you don't hold people because you think they may do something. You hold them because they did something. We do not believe in preventive detention, detaining someone before we have a reason to believe they've committed some prior crime.

They've got a right to be upset, don't they? I guess I would be upset if I were they. You're grabbed from your country, you're handed over by a warlord, you're transported around the world chained and -- chained to an airplane seat. If that plane goes down in the water, you're drowning, aren't you? You can't get out. And then you're thrown in this place where you can, your head is shaved, it looks like many, your beard is shaved, which is a gross violation of their sensitivity and their religious beliefs.

And they're angry. Why shouldn't they be angry? But if they've hurt anybody, we don't know. We don't know who they are. We don't know what's the charge against them. Bring it out in the open. Let the sun shine in and see what the, who these people are instead of just saying they're dangerous terrorists. We don't know, do we?

ZAHN: Do you, would you feel the same way about protecting their civil rights if it is proven that some of these same men murdered their own citizens? We have seen that hideous video of Taliban leaders actually executing people in public during soccer games. If it is proven that some of these men that are being held right now are guilty of that, would you still grant them civil rights?

CLARK: Listen, I believe in civil rights for everybody. That doesn't mean if you've committed a crime and are charged properly and found guilty of it that you don't pay the penalty that the law prescribes, does it? But if they have done something like you suggest in Afghanistan, that is not a crime against the peace and dignity of the United States and we are not the world's judicial system. We have no basis for trying them unless they have committed some offense against us, do we?

We can't just go into any country and say hey, you did something a few years ago in your country that was bad and now you're going to pay us for it.

ZAHN: Are you willing, though, to make a distinction down the road between what ultimately will be found to perhaps be a terrorist and a prisoner of war? I mean are you suggesting that the leaders of al Qaeda be granted prisoner of war status?

CLARK: Well, if -- first, who's a leader of al Qaeda? We don't really know. What has the individual done? We still are a world of individuals. You can't just say he's a leader, he's a member. If they haven't done anything and if they haven't participated directly in a conspiracy and committed overt acts toward the furtherance of that conspiracy, you can't hold them. It doesn't matter what their title is or what their description is.

And we're going all around the world just saying terrorist. You've got a picture, a big picture on the front page of the "New York Post" today that's enough to make a billion people in the world very angry, of guys hunched over with what looks like burlap bags over their head and saying don't forget who the real victims are.

Does that mean we go out and make more victims? That's a way to make enemies and have more victims all the way around. Let's treat them with respect and let's treat them in accordance with law. And let's above all obey the Geneva Convention. If we don't, how do we expect our prisoners, if we ever have any, to be treated fairly? Let's do it right.

ZAHN: Ramsey Clark, we'll be following the process of this petition today.

Thank you again so much for dropping by to give us a preview.

CLARK: Thank you.

ZAHN: Appreciate your time.

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