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CNN Talkback Live

Can John Walker Get Fair Trial?; Is Mike Tyson Down For Count?

Aired January 23, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A not so welcome home for American Taliban John Walker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He don't feel he has done anything wrong and obviously he is about to get a wake-up call when he lands in Virginia.

ANNOUNCER: And Tyson's tirade. Is this the only Tyson/Lewis bout we will see this year?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could argue that what happened today is an indication that Tyson doesn't want to fight Lewis.

ANNOUNCER: Is Tyson down for the count?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(APPLAUSE)

NEAL BOORTZ, HOST: Yeah, I think Mike Tyson has a great future as a radio talk show host, but that will be later. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out". I'm Neal Boortz.

And I don't imagine there is much of a welcome home for Johnny Taliban this evening here in America. There will be plenty of U.S. Marshals on hand, other law enforcement officers ready to meet him. He arrives in the Washington area today where he faces charges that could result in a life sentence.

CNN's Jonathan Aiken is outside the U.S. District Court in Alexandria. But, Jonathan, I understand the action really doesn't start there until tomorrow?

JONATHAN AIKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Neal, 9:00 a.m. has been the time set for the first appearance that John Walker is going to make before a federal magistrate here at the U.S. district court -- the federal courthouse here in Alexandria. Walker himself is still en route from Afghanistan. He's flying over in a military cargo plane, a KC-10, from Kandahar air base. And he is not expected to arrive at Dulles Airport, which is 25, 30 miles northwest of here, until late this afternoon or early this evening. Our guess is probably after the evening rush hour, which is about 7:00, 7:30.

BOORTZ: Just curious, why would put a military cargo plane at Dulles and not Andrews?

AIKEN: Because he has to land in Virginia. That's the deal. He has to land in the state in which he will face the charges, and that is the state of Virginia. Andrews Air Force Base is in Maryland. National airport -- Reagan National Airport, which is closer than Dulles, doesn't have a runway big enough to hold military aircraft, at least not this one.

BOORTZ: And that's not what you would call a luxurious and comfortable way to travel, in a tanker.

AIKEN: No, not indeed. Not at all. I mean, he's flying basically in a cargo plane. And apparently, he is being restrained. Yesterday, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld suggested he might be shackled during his trip as are most of the detainees going through Kandahar to Guantanamo, and he said that Walker will be treated no differently.

BOORTZ: Well, I guess daddy couldn't buy him a first class ticket back to the U.S. Will there be any cameras allowed in the courthouse tomorrow when he is arraigned?

AIKEN: Not in a federal court, no. That's already been decided in a case that Court Television had brought, they had made a petition to televise the hearings of Zacarias Moussaoui, who was the first person indicted in relation to the charges -- in relation to the events of 9/11.

Federal television cameras are not allowed in a federal courtroom for general broadcasting of a criminal trial. There will be television cameras in court once we enter into the major trials like Moussaoui and the others. Those will be for closed-circuit for the benefit of survivors and families.

BOORTZ: OK. Well, Jonathan, thanks so much for spending a second with us here. Really appreciate it.

You have to wonder what is going through the Mullah of Marin's mind as he makes away across the Atlantic in that cargo airplane. Joining us right now, we have a couple of attorneys. Well, that's makes three of them on the show. We have Robert Weiss and Douglas Kmiec. Doug is the dean of the Catholic University of America Law School. And, gentlemen, welcome to the program.

We are going to talk prize fighting later, but I will go ahead and ring a bell right now. Which one of you wants to weigh in on this first? Don't everybody speak at once.

ROBERT WEISS, ATTORNEY: I will be happy to weigh in on it first. There's -- John Walker is an American citizen. He is entitled to all the Constitutional protections of an American citizen, the most important of which being a presumption of innocence. John Walker should not be used as a poster boy here. He should not be used as any kind of scapegoat. We didn't find Osama bin Laden. We didn't find Mullah Omar, and we should not make John Walker pay for the fact we did not find these people. BOORTZ: But, Robert, this presumption of innocence, that's for the jury. But for the citizens of this country, they are under no Constitutional restraints whatsoever to withhold judgment on the guilt or innocence of this man. And we've seen the interviews on CNN with Nic Robertson (sic) and what have you.

WEISS: The interview on CNN was a man who had been taken out of a hospital, he was wounded and he was on morphine at the time. The -- when he was first captured, John Walker had not eaten, by his own admission, in seven days. He had been bombed. He had been -- they tried to drown him. Several of his fellow fighters were killed in that.

I'm not saying John Walker is a good person, and law is always tried on hard cases. These Constitutional protections are always tested on difficult cases. This is a difficult case. He is not a likable person and I understand why the people in the audience and American citizens wouldn't like him. But they still owe him those protections.

BOORTZ: Now, Doug, you are the dean of a law school. You have made this your life study, as well as has Robert. You are not going to be -- or you don't feel so kindly towards John Walker as some people do.

DOUG KMIEC, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Well, I think John Walker Lindh, as far as we know it, has been engaged in levying war against his country. He has been giving aid and comfort to the enemies. This is the quintessential definition of treason, under Article Three of the Constitution of the United States. And while he has not been formally charged with treason by the attorney general, I think the attorney general has quite properly left the complaint open because what I see is a case that fits almost the textbook definition of treason. And...

WEISS: And as you well know, according to the Constitution, treason requires two independent witnesses to corroborate the act. And most legal analysts believe he wasn't charged with treason because they cannot meet that very difficult burden of proof that's right in the Constitution.

BOORTZ: But now, Robert, there is more to it in the Constitution than that. There's also admission in open court. And whose to -- this kid could walk into court tomorrow and say, I did it.

WEISS: He has said a lot of things. And that's one -- this whole case is going to turn on his confessions. And you have to realize that confessions that are made under duress, confessions that are made without the benefit of counsel when counsel is not properly waived, are void. And if these confessions that John Walker has made are excluded from the court proceedings, I think the government is going to have a very hard time proving this case.

(CROSSTALK)

BOORTZ: Do you see any chance they are going to exclude the confessions?

KMIEC: Well, I think the argument is certainly going to be made right along the lines that Mr. Weiss has just suggested, that he was in custody the whole time, that being in custody, it was involuntary.

I think, quite frankly, that is too facile of a reasoning for the federal court. I think the federal court is going to take account of the fact that he was a battlefield detainee, that this was in the midst of wartime. And I don't think they will immediately exclude the statements that he made. But separate and apart from that, one the reasons why we would want to keep our options open with regard to treason is that it's based not on statements, but on acts. As Mr. Weiss properly stated, the Constitution requires either a confession in open court or two witnesses to testify to the same overt act.

Here we have got somebody who has been engaged in being trained in al Qaeda camps, who volunteered to go to the frontlines against the United States and the Northern Alliance. And I venture say that among hundreds of detainees that we have, we can find a witness or two, the Constitutional prerequisite, based on acts, not his statements, that will sustain possibly the treason charge and certainly material assistance to terrorist organizations and conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals.

BOORTZ: Well, could this be overcharging, Doug? I mean, if they go after this 19, now 20-year-old, for treason, is it possible that is just going to bring more sympathy for him out of the American public?

KMIEC: Well, there is great sympathy for his parents and there's great scratching of the head how a family could let this young man go so totally out of their control and not be invested in his life. But I can't redo his life for him.

What we know is we have got a rule of law. And we what have here is levying war against one's own country. And yes, treason is difficult to prove, properly so. That's one of the reasons why the Framers put it in the Constitution. But where the cases that haven't been proven before, have fallen short, are cases where the only thing that has been involved have been talk or assembly or ideas of...

BOORTZ: But, here we have action.

WEISS: From my perspective...

KMIEC: Here we have action, that's right.

WEISS: ... they can charge him with treason, they can do whatever they want to do. They have the right to charge him as prosecutors. The only thing I'm concerned about is that he get a fair trial, which means that those confessions which really form the basis of the charges that I have read right now, are properly examined, there's a proper hearing and in the event the confession...

BOORTZ: OK, Robert, the clock is catching up with me. We are going to give everybody a rest here, watch a few messages and be right back with these gentlemen in just a moment. This is TALKBACK LIVE. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BOORTZ: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. A reminder: a little bit later on in this show, we are going to talk about those giants of the boxing industry, Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson, that little display they put on yesterday. That will be coming up.

Right now, we have Robert Weiss and Douglas Kmiec. Doug, am I pronouncing your name OK?

KMIEC: Just fine.

BOORTZ: OK, because with a name like Boortz, I know what it's like to hear your name butchered. Now, Jonathan, I'm looking at a column here. And I think Jonathan Turley (ph) has been listening to my radio show because this is what I wanted to see happen: Denationalize John Walker. I mean, don't worry about a trial, don't worry about a show, don't worry about confessions, don't worry about TV in the courtrooms, just strip him of his citizenship. The grounds are there to do it. Put him back on the plane, take him to Kandahar, put him off the plane and say, here you are, this is your new country.

(APPLAUSE)

WEISS: If I could just address that issue. It's difficult to do that. There are people who have entered the United States and was later found out to be actually working for the Nazis. They had United States citizenship. They entered under basically false pretenses and some of these court cases to strip them of their citizenship go on for 12, 15 years.

BOORTZ: I understand, but the...

WEISS: United States citizenship is a very, very serious right and cannot be easily or summarily taken away from someone.

BOORTZ: But, Robert, the law that permits us to strip him of his citizenship was passed in 1986. It's a long time after the Nazis were dancing around looking for military secrets.

WEISS: I'm saying there are still cases. As a young attorney, I worked one on of those cases and it was after 1986. There are still cases where people were found out to have been Nazis. They lied about, you know, in their entry papers and these cases lasted a long time. It's not an easy thing. It's not something that John Ashcroft can do by signing a paper. It's a complicated, long thing.

KMIEC: It is a proceeding that can be brought under Title Eight of the U.S. Code, however. And John Walker is very much apprised of it as every U.S. citizen is because it's emblazoned right there on one's passport.

BOORTZ: Right on the passport. KMIEC: If you engage in hostilities against your country, you are relinquishing your citizenship. The key element of proof there is the intent to betray, the intent to relinquish. And again, by his own statements and his own actions, I think that's provable.

BOORTZ: I think it would be easily provable. We are going to go to Alberta, Canada right now. We have Mark on the telephone. OK, Mark, speak up for us.

CALLER: I was curious on how they were planning to get an unbiased jury with all the media exposure that this has been...

WEISS: Very good point. It is going to be hard to do. And everyone of those jurors, every one of those 12 jurors, is going to have to find every element of this crime that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And if those jurors can't do that, then they shouldn't be sitting these jurors. It is going to be a very, very difficult thing to do and that's a very good point.

BOORTZ: We're going to have to find jurors that actually have great respect for our legal system and are willing to put those biases aside, is it? Is it even possible?

KMIEC: Well, I think we have those jurors. And quite frankly, you know, it's amusing. The arguments that are made against military tribunals is that they are not fair enough. They are not consistent with our tradition of civil liberties and we want the civil...

BOORTZ: Gentlemen, one second if you would. We need to cut to the CNN news desk, Leon Harris has some breaking news for us. We will be right back in just a second on TALKBACK LIVE.

(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)

BOORTZ: Robert Weiss and Douglas Kmiec, welcome back. We have a phone call for you on this issue of a trial for John Walker Taliban. This is Charles. He is calling from Texas. Go ahead, Charles.

CALLER: Yes, when John Walker comes up to trial, do you think his attorneys will bring out some sort of a Patty Hearst type of defense like saying he is just some ignorant kid who was brainwashed? He is not really responsible for his actions?

WEISS: Yes, I do. I think that the only question is to how much of his own volition was involved here and how much he was brainwashed, how much he was indoctrinated, how much of a free will he had when he made the decision to join the Taliban, to go to certain camps is very much an issue at this trial. So the answer in my opinion is yes, that is a valid defense.

BOORTZ: But now, Robert, as far as him not having his mental faculties, he is a teenager and existing and carrying on quite well in terms of survival in very hostile territory around very hostile people and this doesn't sound to me like the kid didn't have his right mind about him. He knew exactly what he was doing. WEISS: Well, you don't know what type of indoctrination techniques they use. I have read where they gave him a choice of either going to martyrdom camp, which I assume meant that he was going to die, or fight against the Northern Alliance. And he chose to fight against the Northern Alliance. That may have been a rational choice.

You can't rush to judgment. The point is here you cannot rush to judgment in this case. You have to let all the evidence come out. I understand why everybody is upset about John Walker, and I'm upset too. But I'm also upset that the Constitution of the United States is under attack here. We have to keep our priorities. People the fought and died for the Constitution and the fought for these rights. We can't throw the Constitution out the window because we are upset at John Walker.

BOORTZ: I think it's working quite well, Robert. Doug, do you think the Constitution is under attack because of this 20-year-old kid?

KMIEC: No. I think part of the purpose of the Constitution is to provide for the common defense and providing for the common defense means coming to the assistance of the general public when it's under attack by terrorism.

WEISS: This was a man who was not able to see an attorney. His parents hired an attorney, they never allowed him to speak to the attorney.

BOORTZ: Come on, Robert, he is 20 years old. He makes the decision on hiring an attorney, not his parents. He waived it.

WEISS: The fact is, he was never able to hire an attorney. When he waived those right, he was -- apparently he was on morphine when he did that CNN interview -- I don't know what kind of shape he was in...

BOORTZ: We talked to Nic Robertson the other day. The morphine was not administered until well into the interview, Robert.

WEISS: This is the kind of thing that is going to be determined at a hearing. But the point is it bothers me, it troubles me, as it does many legal scholars, that he still hasn't had the opportunity to speak to an attorney.

BOORTZ: Gentlemen, time is up. This is great. And I'm sure there will be much more to be said about Johnny Taliban. Robert Weiss, Doug Kmiec, glad you could be here with us here today. Now folks, you at home, put on your gloves. You can live vicariously through this. We are going to go a couple of round with some real experts from the boxing community. It is about Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis and that is coming up next on TALKBACK LIVE.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, power play or fool's play?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some day somebody is going to get either knifed or killed at one of these things and I certainly don't want the blood on our hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Maybe's it's all for show. And maybe it's the final round. We are in the ring with Tyson and Lewis right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOORTZ: OK, folks, by now, even people who do not follow boxing, they are following this.

It's the latest display of out-of-the-ring hijinks looking like, well, something like one of those Jerry Springer shows or something. Heavyweights Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis, they mix it up at a -- this is a news conference, folks, see. This is a news conference for an upcoming championship bought. And Tyson then goes into an expletive- filled tirade, grabbing his private parts. Is this what boxing is all about, folks?

And we are going to talk about it right now with CNNSI boxing analyst Steve Farhood. We have him with us right now. We also have Bert Sugar, a boxing historian.

How you doing, Bert? Good to see you again.

BERT SUGAR, BOXING HISTORIAN: It's nice to see anybody again.

(LAUGHTER)

BOORTZ: Oh, Bert, you look just the same.

He has written more than 50 books on this topic. His current one is entitled, "Sting Like a Bee," the story of Muhammad Ali -- and then Rock Newman, a boxing promoter and manager and part owner of a hockey team.

That is pretty eclectic, Rock.

ROCK NEWMAN, BOXING PROMOTER/MANAGER: Neal, how are you? Good to be with you.

BOORTZ: I'm doing great.

OK, gentlemen, Mike Tyson, not only -- this is something that a lot of people may not be aware of -- yesterday, he had this wonderful little exhibition in New York. And, at the same time, they are talking in Las Vegas now, presenting evidence to prosecutors about a possible, another rape charge against Tyson. Is the final bell about to ring on this guy?

FARHOOD: My guess is yes. I really think that there is a good chance we will never see him in the ring again. If Nevada denies him a license, where is he going to go? He has the indictment over his head. He is also 35 years old. It is not as if he has a long ring career ahead of him. And, as he becomes less marketable, he won't be getting paid $17 million, $20 million to fight. SUGAR: And yet, Steve, I respectfully say he is marketable in a perverse way, because people want to see train wrecks. And he is a

(CROSSTALK)

SUGAR: ... train wreck.

NEWMAN: Absolutely. What he did yesterday did absolutely nothing to diminish his marketability. It enhanced -- it further enhanced his marketability, because Mike Tyson appeals to the essence of our voyeuristic nature, as Bert said.

I can't believe that I am agreeing with anything that he said, but we love to see train wrecks.

(LAUGHTER)

BOORTZ: I know you two guys are friends.

Rock, let me ask you this. If this enhances Tyson's marketability, what does that say for boxing?

NEWMAN: Well, you know what? I think the question is less what does it say about boxing than it does about people who want to tune in boxing or wrestling or WWF or these reality shows that are getting more and more bizarre as the weeks and the months go by.

You know, Tyson would be a nonentity. He would be a nonsubject if we weren't interested in him because he had a certain appeal that attracted us.

BOORTZ: I'm going to read real quick, gentlemen -- just quick, I will read a couple of statements from Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis.

Tyson says: "My motivation for approaching Lennox was to stage a face-off, which I was told both camps had agreed to. It was Lennox's bodyguard who panicked and shoved me. Lennox then threw a right. I was here to promote the fight, not to be intimidated. I will never be intimidated by anybody. And Lennox will pay in April."

Oh.

And this from Lennox Lewis: "As a result of today's events, I will reevaluate my options after the relevant boxing commission has ruled."

Reevaluate options? It is a $100 million fight.

SUGAR: Well, it's 17.5 for him, but the point being -- and let me just pick up where Rock was going.

This is not boxing. This is society. I mean, how many times have we gone down a highway, there is an accident off of on the other side and our lane, which doesn't have the accident, is slower because people gawk? They love this. There is a perversity here. And the people love train wrecks. And Mike Tyson is a train wreck. But I just don't think that boxing and particularly the state of Nevada, unless the establishment, the site, which is the MGM Grand -- that's Kirk Kerkorian -- wants this fight, I don't believe that Tyson will have a license after January 29 to fight there.

(CROSSTALK)

FARHOOD: I agree. And I just want to say that if Nevada -- there are five votes in Nevada, five commissioners. If they license him, right or wrong -- and I am not saying it's right or wrong. All I'm saying is, if they license him, I think they look very, very hypocritical, being that so many of Tyson's transgressions over the years have happened in Nevada, including the ear-biting...

SUGAR: At the MGM Grand.

FARHOOD: At the MGM Grand, where there was a riot in the hotel, etcetera. They will be hypocritical if they license him.

BOORTZ: OK. Rock has something to say.

But, Rock, we are going to let you practice here for just a few seconds while we take a break, call an end to this round.

And we will be back.

Bert, we know have to run. Thank you very much for a few minutes.

Curtis Sliwa is going to sit in Bert's seat right now. He will be on when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOORTZ: Some of you may remember Ron Kuby on yesterday's radio show. Well, here is a guy that has to deal with him every single day. Now joining us is WABC radio talk show host Curtis Sliwa, who, to date, has not yet punched out Ron Kuby.

CURTIS SLIWA, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That's right. Well, I take liquid Prozac, unlike Mike Tyson, who should have Zoloft pumped into his facilities morning, noon and night.

BOORTZ: Well, now, you are the founder of Guardian Angels. And Mike Tyson was a thug on the streets of New York. He was one of the guys you were protecting people from.

SLIWA: Well, actually, I grew up in the same neighborhood, Brownsville. And they had a saying -- because Rock Newman should know that his own world champion, Riddick Bowe came from the area -- "From the 'Ville, never ran, never will." The toughest of the tough come from Brownsville.

But I will tell you this much, if I had a face-off, a stare-down on a street corner in Brownsville or anywhere else in America, and that led to blows like we saw yesterday between Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis -- actually Lennox Lewis hitting the blow, nicking Mike Tyson, drawing blood, Mike Tyson biting Lennox Lewis, and then the entourage exchanging punches, one guy, Sulaiman, knocked out, everyone would have been arrested, and they would have sorted it out at the cop shop.

These guys should have been arrested and let the judge figure it out, because you can't let them get away with this.

BOORTZ: Well, now, Rock, we can't let them arrest , though, can we?

NEWMAN: Well, Burt mentioned society in his last piece. And what I would like to do is take -- make an effort to sort of slow down the merry-go-round of hysteria that is surrounding this event.

After all, it is boxing. And when he talked about society, I would like to develop that a little bit further and say that I think it would be fair to ponder the question of looking at boxing. You said at the onset of this show that I was part owner of a hockey team, and that's true. So I obviously have no ax to grind with hockey. It helps pay the rent sometimes.

But day in and day out, night in and night out, you have guys in the hockey arenas punching each other in the face, splattering nose, blacking eyes, knocking out teeth, and the fans roar and they cheer them on. Mike Tyson behaves like he did yesterday and he is characterized as a monster. And I would say we are looking at it with skewed eyes. We are using a double-standard for the behavior of Mike Tyson when we cheer the behavior of another segment of society when they do it

(CROSSTALK)

BOORTZ: But, Rock, fights don't break out at hockey conferences. They break out at hockey games.

NEWMAN: But the point is, though, let's use the same yardstick to measure the conduct. The conduct is wrong, illegal, foul in the hockey arena as it was at the press conference yesterday. But yet one we cheer and the other we castigate. That has a little bit something to do, Neal, with something called race. And it's a question I think that should be examined.

(CROSSTALK)

BOORTZ: Oh, Rock -- Rock, I have known you for so many years. And if anybody on the panel was going to bring race into this, it was going to be you. Now, come on, Rock.

NEWMAN: Neal, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, but however, however, why don't we examine that? I think it is a fair examination.

BOORTZ: We can in a second, but I am going to pay respect to the audience here. And Chris has a question for Steve, I believe, from somebody up here.

STAFF: Go ahead, Brent.

BRENT: Yes. I would like ask to the gentleman who said it would be hypocritical for the Nevada Boxing Commission to not restate his license. What reason would they have to not do so? He committed no crime against the people. If there are no charges filed, I don't see why it should have any bearing on it. It is boxing. It's not ballet.

FARHOOD: A license has to be earned. It is not a given. It is given by the state. Mike Tyson was basically kicked out of Nevada three years ago after knocking out Orlin Norris with a punch after the bell. The commissioner said to him, "Leave." That is why Mike Tyson went on the road and fought in Europe. He has not had a license since. And based on what I saw yesterday, he does not deserve a license.

To very quickly include something Rock said, Rock, the difference is -- and you are right about hockey -- but the difference is, Mike Tyson has not done this once. He has done it many times. He has a history. And you have to consider that history when you are deciding whether to license him with a public license.

NEWMAN: And the history of hockey is replete with the things that I am talking about, sticks going upside heads and fighting. And there is nothing in the rules -- there is not anything in the rules of hockey that condone or say that that is OK. I am talking about how we look at it as a society and the double-standard that we sometimes use. Tyson hurts himself too much, but he has also been victimized by a double-standard.

BOORTZ: Rock, I will guarantee that, if a hockey player attacks somebody at a press conference, they would be suspended immediately.

Now, Bobby from Virginia on the telephone has a quick question.

Go ahead, Bobby.

CALLER: Yes, I think that Rock Newman is -- it is white-America status quo. There is a double-standard. I have not seen a hockey match where they didn't kill each other, bloody eyes, bloody noses, because their white (AUDIO GAP) it's watered down and it's OK. If it's a black person, oh, my God, they are out of control.

This is status quo. It's racism. You look at that tape, Mike didn't even hit anybody. And this karate guy you got on the panel, he needs to get a real job.

SLIWA: Well, let me bring up that race issue, since I am a karate guy.

BOORTZ: Karate guy.

SLIWA: But I will tell you this -- and, Rock, I am surprised at you, because I was in Madison Square Garden, where your world champion, Riddick Bowe, from Brownsville, faced off with latest great white dope -- I mean, hope -- Andrew Golota from Poland, as white as the day is long. And there was a riot that ensued when one of your handlers, because Golota, again, went low-blow on Riddick Bowe, knocking him down, took a Motorola radio, conked him on the head. And the place broke out in a ruckus. That had nothing to do with vilifying blacks. That was blacks and whites together and the black eye that boxing has had in almost perpetuity because of these outrageous acts -- and no arrests. Why no arrests?

BOORTZ: OK, Curtis.

Hey, folks, we will be back in a moment.

Do you think the scuffle between Tyson and Lewis was all a ploy so that Tyson can avoid a big fight? Take the TALKBACK LIVE poll on the Internet at CNN.com/TALKBACK. And we will get the results from that poll when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOORTZ: OK, let's take a look at the poll results here. Was this all a ploy? Was the scuffle a ploy to keep Tyson out of a fight?

Now, I'm sure that Rock would tell us that Tyson would never do such a thing; 63 percent of the people here say, yes, it was a ploy. Tyson doesn't want to fight Lennox Lewis.

Steve...

NEWMAN: You know, Neal, I think that, if you look at the spectrum of possibilities, you have to give consideration to: Was it indeed a ploy to avoid humiliation during the fight, where he might be afraid that he would get knocked out? That is one supposition.

The other is, Mike Tyson in his earlier career used to would win fights a month before the fight ever took place, through intimidation. So was it an effort to intimidate Lewis so that when he got to the fight, he would have an edge? None of us really know, because we do not know what is going on between the ears of Mike Tyson.

BOORTZ: But, now, Rock, isn't it a fact that, every once in a while, we will find a fighter suffer a -- quote -- "injury" -- unquote -- in training camp, or maybe get the sniffles just before a fight, and the real story there is that they are just not ready to go?

NEWMAN: Sometimes that is the case. And all fighters walk around an amalgamation of emotions. And one of those very strong emotions is indeed fear. Mike Tyson often talked about, during the time he was with Cus D'Amato, about how Cus taught him about fear and how, if you let it run out of control, it will burn you up like a fire. However, if you control it, like a fire, it will keep you warm and make you well.

Mike obviously is a troubled guy. I just don't think that yesterday's actions in and of themselves was something that should disqualify him from being able to get a license and to go through with this fight. And I will be saying -- I will be saying that to the Nevada Commission if I get an opportunity, who I respect a great deal.

BOORTZ: OK, Thomas in Illinois, a last call for us here -- go ahead, Thomas.

CALLER: Yes. I think Mike Tyson epitomizes the travesty that heavyweight boxing has become in this era. And Rock Newman, spoken like a true promoter, playing the race card I think is ridiculous. No matter the color of his skin, his actions are totally unacceptable. And they have been. Mike Tyson's boxing career is over. And I hope that the Nevada Boxing Commission does not give him a license. And as far as you to play it as a race card, I think that is totally ridiculous.

NEWMAN: And if the fight takes place, you will buy it.

CALLER: No way. No way. Long gone are the gentlemen like Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard, long gone. And long gone are the good boxing promoters and trainers like Cus D'Amato. This would have never happened back then.

SLIWA: In terms of heavyweight boxing, OK, you want to be critical of Mike Tyson, fine. But let's not damn the entire division. Rock's fighter, Riddick Bowe, and Evander Holyfield fought three times -- three great fights. Nobody bit anybody in the ring. Evander Holyfield was a tremendous champion, gutty champion. Lennox Lewis has never done anything terrible in the ring or outside the ring. So let's not damn all of boxing just because of Mike Tyson's conduct.

SLIWA: Well, you know what is interesting -- and maybe you're not aware of it -- nationally...

BOORTZ: OK, we've got just about 15 seconds, Curtis. Go ahead.

SLIWA: But our police commissioner here, Ray Kelly, who should have swore out a warrant for the arrest, is also the chairman of the New York State Boxing Commission. And he is going to end up protecting Tyson and Lennox Lewis from any prosecution. He is wearing two hats. That is incredible.

BOORTZ: OK, gentlemen, this has been fantastic. There will be more to it. What if charges of rape are brought against Tyson in Nevada before the commission even makes up its mind? It is a possibility.

So, we are out of time. Folks, I appreciate it. Our thanks to Bert Sugar, Steve Farhood, Rock Newman, Curtis Sliwa and to you at home watching.

I will be back here tomorrow. Two more days, folks, and I get to keep this TALKBACK LIVE mug, just two more shows.

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