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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
John Walker Makes First Court Appearance; Mariah Carey Loses Her Glitter
Aired January 24, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: John Walker chose to join the terrorists who wanted to kill Americans and he chose to waive his right to an attorney.
ANNOUNCER: Just how much choosing did the American Taliban do?
FRANK LINDH, JOHN WALKER LINDH'S FATHER: John loves America. We love America. John did not do anything against America. John did not take up arms against America. He never meant to harm any American.
ANNOUNCER: Also, virgin no more. Mariah Carey loses her glitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a very expensive artist to run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(APPLAUSE)
NEAL BOORTZ, HOST: OK. We will get to the urban yodeling part the show a little later. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE: "America Speaks Out". I'm Neal Boortz.
And you have seen it, a shaved and bald and better-fed John Walker Lindh. Johnny Taliban appeared before a federal judge today in Alexandria, Virginia. His lawyers and parents appeared before the cameras. Justice, sympathy, anger, it's all there to greet John Walker Lindh, his second day home.
Now, CNN's Jonathan Aiken was at the courthouse this morning. He joins us now from our CNN bureau in Washington. Jonathan, good afternoon. What are your impressions of what you saw there this morning?
JONATHAN AIKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I was not in the court room. CNN's Susan Candiotti was there. Each network was given one seat in order to watch, and Susan went into the courtroom itself. But having watched his attorney, watching the prosecutors and also watching his parents, you got the impression that he almost looked a little dazed as he came in this morning. There's a picture -- a still picture from an AP photographer as he came into the courthouse about 6:30 this morning that shows him clean shaven and looking at the press. And he looked a little dazed and confused, I think as anyone would. That's from last night, by the way, that picture you are looking at, that's from last night as we was being taken. That's the one from this morning.
His appearance in court, we are told he looked gaunt, from those who actually saw him within the court itself, Neal. He is a tall guy. He's at least six, maybe 6'2", and generally would be probably a better build than he is, but given the circumstances and his diet of late, probably. He looked thin, though one artist, Bill Hennessy, who did these drawings told me that he was surprised actually at how puffy his face seemed to look.
BOORTZ: Now, I was kind of surprised. I understand there was no actual arraignment this morning. What was the purpose of this appearance in court?
AIKEN: This was essentially a formality. It's a first appearance hearing. This is the first opportunity that John Walker Lindh had to hear the charges formally presented to him by the federal government. This was the gist of the complaints filed against him by the U.S. Justice Department. Four changes in all, the most serious probably being conspiring to kill U.S. nationals abroad. He faces two counts of providing material support or resources to terrorists. And there is two counts in there because Walker Lindh was involved with two different group, not only al Qaeda, but also another Islamic group out of Pakistan.
And then there is a fourth count -- third charge, fourth count -- of providing goods and services to the Taliban, engaging in unlawful contacts and contracts with the Taliban. So the whole purpose of this was not only to allow him to hear the charges but also to allow the court the opportunity to see whether or not Walker Lindh needed a lawyer, which in fact he did not, and also to start to deal with the questions of what happens next and start to set up a schedule for hearings down the road.
BOORTZ: Well, on the subject of a lawyer, I have seen some press reports today now that are referring to his lawyer. Up to this point, they have been -- it's been his parents' lawyer. Has he in fact now agreed to retain those lawyers to represent him in this case?
AIKEN: Yes, he has. And apparently, in a letter that was sent by Walker to his family, a letter dated January 8, delivered to the family by the Red Cross only just recently, John Walker Lindh said to parents -- basically I'm not quoting here, I'm paraphrasing -- I'm really glad you got the lawyer. I'm happy to hear that.
The attorney identified himself in court as John Walker Lindh's attorney. And in statements put out to the press yesterday, he identified himself as well and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to the press afterwards.
BOORTZ: That was Brosnahan?
AIKEN: That's right. BOORTZ: OK. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for joining -- one more question. What is next? When does he go back to court? When does he have to enter a plea?
AIKEN: Entering a plea, we're not sure yet. He's going to come back to court on February 6. And the federal government has some options at this point. They could impanel a grand jury -- I mean, one is already sitting so they could charge the grand jury to take a look at this and see if they want to come up with an indictment. That probably will be the case because it would be unusual for the federal government to make such a charge without an indictment from a sitting grand jury.
February 6 is when he next shows in court. That's a preliminary hearing. It's possible, Neal, that a grand jury could have already acted and passed a swift indictment, and then the opportunity would arise that the charges could be formally presented. He would be formally charged. At that point, he would enter a plea and then a trial date will be set. And the money is maybe some time this fall, but that's just a guess.
BOORTZ: But they call this the "rocket docket". This is the northern district in Arlington, Virginia. And one of the reasons the federal government likes this area is because things move so swiftly in the courts.
AIKEN: I guess swift is a relative term when you are talking about the federal courts. But think of this, the federal government in -- or rather, the eastern district court in Virginia is able to work through a federal case in roughly two-thirds the time that it would take any other district court under the federal system within the United States to move. So this is clearly the fastest of the bunch.
One of the reasons for that I suspect is its proximity to Washington, but also its ability to come up with juries who are somewhat sympathetic to federal prosecutors. This is a jury pool in northern Virginia that consists of a lot of present and retired civil service, federal workers and also a lot of present and retired military people from the Pentagon. Whether or not they are going to be excluded from this case, of course, is another question.
BOORTZ: Well, that's a good question.
AIKEN: Yes, it is a fair question. It would cut the jury pool somewhat, but not substantially.
BOORTZ: OK. Jonathan Aiken, thank you so much for spending some time with us, really appreciate it.
AIKEN: Thank you.
BOORTZ: Some people were wondering whether or not he may decide to go for a bench trial in this and forego a jury. At any rate, with us now Michael Smerconish -- if I mispronouncing the name, you can either gesture or say yes. Nod... MICHAEL SMERCONISH, COLUMNIST: You are doing well, Neal.
BOORTZ: OK, fine -- a trial lawyer, a columnist, the "Philadelphia Daily News"; also criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor Pamela Hayes. And OK, one of Walker's attorneys, James Brosnahan -- you heard about him a little bit ago -- he took the PR offensive today appearing before the cameras with the family. And I want you to hear now what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES BROSNAHAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Now for 54 days, the United States government has kept John Lindh away from a lawyer.
ASHCROFT: John Walker chose to join terrorists who wanted to kill Americans. And he chose to waive his right to an attorney, both orally and in writing before his statement to the FBI. Mr. Walker will be held responsible in the courtroom for his choices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOORTZ: OK, Pamela, I would suspect that you probably disagree with what the attorney general just had to say there.
PAMELA HAYES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I don't disagree that he will be held responsible. But I think that his lawyer has a very valid complaint in that he was held 54 days without seeing a lawyer.
Generally speaking, a lawyer is given to a client once he or she is in custody. In certain state procedures, there's is a time frame where a person must be arraigned or at least presented to a neutral magistrate. And in this instance, the government knew that a lawyer was retained. I'm sure they called and told them that they were retained, and they prevented him from seeing his client.
BOORTZ: But, Pamela, the lawyer was retained by his parents, not by him.
HAYES: It doesn't matter.
BOORTZ: Well, he is an adult
HAYES: It doesn't matter.
BOORTZ: He retains his own lawyer.
HAYES: No, no, no, no. If you -- you are retained for the client. You are not the client's parents' lawyer. If my child gets in trouble and I pay for the lawyer, I'm paying for the person who is in trouble. I don't need a lawyer. I'm not in any trouble. The parents weren't in any trouble. Once somebody files a notice of appearance or makes it known to the government that a lawyer has been retained for that person, that information should be communicated to that individual and they should be able to decide whether they want to go forward. BOORTZ: OK. Michael, time is kind of tight. We are going to get your response...
SMERCONISH: Real quick...
BOORTZ: Well, we are going to have hold on a second.
SMERCONISH: All right.
BOORTZ: Commercials wait for nobody and it is time for that break. You are watching TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)
(APPLAUSE)
BOORTZ: All right. Lawyers Michael Smerconish and Pamela Hayes are joining us. We are talking about the appearance in court this morning of the Mullah of Marin. And, Michael, you didn't get a chance to respond to Pamela before that break-in for that fascinating school bus story. But what about this? Did he have a lawyer or did he not?
SMERCONISH: Oh, come on. Listen: I'm sick and tired already of people trying to evoke sympathy for a kid who is a terrorist. And my question is: Why isn't he in an eight-by-eight cell down in Guantanamo Bay with everybody else from al Qaeda.
(APPLAUSE)
I mean, cut me some slack here. And you know what's going to happen next, Neal? Before it's over, although I don't know how they are going to pull it off with the parents in the picture, you will be hearing that he was abused as a child and there was a divorce in the picture and all that other mumbo jumbo. Forget about it.
He twice consented by waiving in writing and orally his Miranda rights. He then acknowledged that he was fighting alongside of terrorists since May of last year, that he met bin Laden, that he carried a rifle, and here is the worst, that 90 days before 9/11, he knew that there were suicides attacks planned against the United States. Well, what the hell did he do about it to protect his parents? That's the question that I want to know about this?
(APPLAUSE)
BOORTZ: Well, you know that the defense, as they should, they are going to do everything in the world they can to have everything he said right up until the day he walked into a courtroom kept out of evidence and out of any trial. Do you think they can do it?
SMERCONISH: Oh, yes. And before it's over, Johnnie Cochran is going to emerge in this thing. I mean, this is ridiculous. This is why he ought to be in a military tribunal or in Guantanamo Bay. The answer to question is those statements are coming in because I think that the government covered their tails.
BOORTZ: Well, first of all, Michael, Johnnie Cochran is busy with the dead cat in Florida. And, second of all, you're not going to be able to get an American citizen in front of a military tribunal. I mean, as much as we'd like to see that...
HAYES: Well, that's not exactly true, Neal.
BOORTZ: What, the dead cat part or the...
HAYES: I don't know anything about the dead cat. I'm talking more about the legal issues you are referring to. In terms of whether he should be in front of a military tribunal, I tend to agree that that's where he should be. From everything I can gather, he was a soldier, some like an ideological mercenary over there fighting for their cause.
You know, it's not about having sympathy for this individual. It's about making sure that our laws work properly so that we can stand up and look America in the face and say we did it right.
BOORTZ: But, Pamela, if you are saying that he was a soldier fighting for their cause, then you have just made the case for treason.
HAYES: No, I haven't made the case for treason.
SMERCONISH: I think you are right, Neal. She has made it. Absolutely.
HAYES: No, I haven't made...
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
It's not true.
SMERCONISH: This is not assault and battery.
HAYES: You just don't convict somebody because, oh, they said he was with someone. Treason has specific elements. Nobody saying they liked this guy. Nobody is saying they want to get him away, but we just can't have a lynching to say -- to make us feel good. We have to follow the law.
BOORTZ: Oh no. Pamela, hold on. Nobody is talking about a lynching. You don't precede lynchings with appearances in federal court. Isn't that...
(CROSSTALK)
SMERCONISH: Even the invoction (ph) of that word tells you the direction in which this thing is headed and no good can come from it. This kid needs to be evaluated in the context of war because that's what this is. This is not an assault and battery on the streets of Atlanta.
HAYES: I agree with you. So let's take him and all those others down in Cuba who did the exact same thing as he did, the British citizen, the Australia citizen, and let's try them in front of the military tribunal. The question is, why is he being selectively brought to a federal district court in Virginia just because he's an American citizen?
BOORTZ: That's why.
HAYES: The key is his actions...
BOORTZ: It's because he is an American citizen.
HAYES: The behavior is the key.
BOORTZ: Pamela and Michael, you are great. Let's do it again. We have to take a break here, folks. Michael Smerconish, Pamela Hayes, thanks.
And we are going to meet some other folks involved with this in just a moment. Stay where you are.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARILYN WALKER, JOHN WALKER'S MOTHER: I am grateful to God that he has been brought home to his family, me, his home, his country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(APPLAUSE)
BOORTZ: Did she just say his country? OK, welcome back.
Joining us now as we explore John Walker Lindh, Johnny Taliban, as we look into his brain, we have Bernie Ward. Oh, Bernie, you and I have had fun in the past, haven't we? He's...
BERNIE WARD, KGO RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: It is always fun to be with the Ayatollah of Atlanta.
BOORTZ: Oh, Thank you, Bernie. He is out there on KGO news talk AM in San Francisco, a radio station struggling in the ratings.
WARD: Oh gosh, yes.
(LAUGHTER)
BOORTZ: No, they have been No. 1 longer than any radio station in the free world.
WARD: 24 years. BOORTZ: Look, I already gave you a plug, Bernie. You don't have to...
(LAUGHTER)
OK?
WARD: Well, I know you want me to be soft on you, so I'll try.
BOORTZ: What a perfect line I had for right now. And we have Steve Malzberg, a radio talk show host WABC in New York, that is a trifecta for WABC this week. And, Steve, because Bernie is so obnoxious, I am going to give you the first go here. You go ahead.
STEVE MALZBERG, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I noticed the first name-calling of the session came from Bernie which isn't surprising.
Look, Johnny Walker Lindh, in my book, when you open up the dictionary to the word treason, a picture of Johnny Walker should be laying right there. And it's not far-fetched that the government could still charge him with treason. So that is not out of the realm of possibility.
But to hear his mother say, oh, he's home in the country that he loves; to hear his the lawyers say, "Oh, he wanted his lawyer; he wanted an attorney," when in fact we know for a fact that we have a signed statement, and verbally as well, that repeatedly this man turned down a lawyer.
There were several occasions, if Johnny Walker was just looking to get out of there without getting shot by the bad guys, the al Qaeda people, who would turn on him if he left, and turned on them, there was ample opportunity once the Americans took over that prison after the riot, when he was interrogated by the CIA gentleman who was then killed. This is a man who deserted his country, hates this country. And I am outraged that he is back here. He belongs down in Guantanamo Bay, like your previous guest said.
BOORTZ: OK, now, Bernie, first of all, I want to congratulate you, Bernie, for your uncharacteristic silence during that.
WARD: Well, no,I was surprised Steve knew that many big words.
BOORTZ: Wow.
Now, if I'm not mistaken, you live in Marin County, don't you?
WARD: I do not. I live in San Francisco. And if you knew the geography, you would know the difference.
BOORTZ: Oh, I know the geography. My sister used to live out there. And I'm surprised -- well, never mind, we won't go into that.
But, Bernie, why so much sympathy for this kid?
WARD: Well, I don't know if there is sympathy or not.
BOORTZ: Oh, believe me, there is sympathy.
WARD: It's interesting to listen to all of the talk. First of all, it is a good thing that Steve is not a lawyer, because he would know, when you waive your Miranda rights, you are not waiving your chance to see an attorney. And, in fact, once an attorney is retained, it is required under federal rules that that attorney be made present to the client.
So, he was held for 52 days after an attorney was retained. And the federal government didn't make a -- Miranda has nothing to do with that question and whether he gets an question or not.
BOORTZ: Bernie.
WARD: Neal, the whole question -- look at him today. The idea that, when this kid was pulled out of a prison after they had dumped cold water on him -- he almost looked like he was dead -- and all of the sudden, he was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) enough to be able to sign away his Miranda rights?
MALZBERG: He is a victim. In other words, Johnny Walker is a victim.
(CROSSTALK)
WARD: Excuse me. Neal knows what the rules are on Miranda. And Neal knows that the way you can throw Miranda out is if you can show that the person does not understand the ramifications of his actions.
MALZBERG: The attorney general specifically said he waived his right to an attorney. Specifically, he said that.
WARD: And the attorney general is always known as a fount of truthfulness, absolutely correct.
MALZBERG: Oh, so the attorney general is wrong. Everybody is wrong, but Bernie is right. You and Johnny. What a team.
(CROSSTALK)
WARD: Go ahead, Neal. It's your show.
BOORTZ: I know you get out of control, Bernie. It's an inertia thing. But Steve may not be an attorney. I am. And unless he, John Walker Lindh, retains the attorney, it is not his attorney until he accepts him. So his parents hiring an attorney in California does not mean he is represented by legal counsel.
WARD: Neal, that is not the federal rule and you know it.
BOORTZ: We have to take a break.
WARD: It is not the federal regulation and you know it. BOORTZ: We have to take a break. And when we come back, Bernie will tell me some more things that I know. And we will have a he said/she said on the telephone.
You're watching TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOORTZ: OK. Welcome back.
We are going to let our talk show host take a little bit of a break here and do a telephone he said/she said. And he said first. That would be Philip. He is calling from Texas.
Go ahead, Philip.
CALLER: Yes, how are you doing, Neal?
BOORTZ: So far so good.
CALLER: Yes. We are sick and tired down here of everybody -- the last couple of interviews -- everybody calling this man a kid. He is 20 years old. He is not a kid. Men and women in this country volunteer at 18 years of age to fight and die for the freedoms of this country.
And we are sick of this guy. He soils this country with every step he takes in it right now. He does not deserve his rights. He gave up his rights when he went to Yemen. Nobody held a gun to his head. He went on his own. He went to Pakistan on his own. And then he crossed into Kabul on his own. His parents paid for him to go over there at 16 years old. So quit calling him a kid.
BOORTZ: Well, you wonder -- and thanks.
You wonder, while George Bush was freezing those people that contribute to terrorist organizations why he did not get this guy's father's bank account.
We have Yolanda now in Arizona.
Go ahead, Yolanda.
CALLER: I would to like make a comment that I think that, before we judge John Walker too harshly, we really need to let all the facts come out in court. I really feel that he was young and disillusioned, without proper parental guidance.
And I think that, because America is hurting so very badly that we are in a hurry to blame him. He did not cause the tragedy on September 11. I would rather see him rehabilitated by working with the victims of 9/11 so some real healing can begin. Putting him in a cell with Robert Hanssen, who had years to do his dirty work is not going to solve the problem.
He is young. Maybe he will get the right kind of guidance now. This is not O.J. Simpson that we are talking about. Let some real healing begin.
MALZBERG: Neal, it is funny. She says that he did not cause the attacks. True, he did not cause the attacks, but the complaint alleges that, in June of this year, while training with his buddies in al Qaeda, he learned that Osama bin Laden has sent terrorists to this country to do a dirty deed such as the one on September 11.
He did not called his mommy and his daddy and warn them, did he? No, he kept his mouth shut because he hates this country.
BOORTZ: I wonder if he knew about the uprising that was planned at Mazar-e Sharif that ended up in the death of an American CIA agent? Did he know about that?
WARD: I think he was in on all the strategy sessions with Osama bin Laden.
BOORTZ: Oh, that's...
WARD: I think he turned out to be one of his lieutenants and that he knows all, because, as we know, Osama bin Laden was always free with information about where he was sending suicide squads. And, in fact, he so free with it that the guys on the planes knew exactly what they were up to and what was going to happen to them.
But, instead, here is this schmo from America and Osama bin Laden makes sure that he knows that they are sending suicide squads over to the United States of America. So he was far more important. You guys are right. We caught a big one here and he knew everything that was going on, because Osama bin Laden has always had loose lips and he makes sure everybody knew his plans.
MALZBERG: Bernie, the sad part is, if we caught Osama bin Laden, you would probably be protesting that we are treating him to harshly as well.
BOORTZ: Now, Steve, I want to bow to Bernie as an expert on loose lips, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
WARD: Thank you very much, Neal.
BOORTZ: And I know now why KGO is No. 1.
Chris, you have someone.
WARD: Thank you very much. You'll catch up some day.
STAFF: Yes, Neal. This is Cathy from Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
CATHY: This is in no way to get John Walker out of being responsible for what he's done. But who has looked at his mental and physical help to be sure if he is competent to answer questions and stand trial? Has that been done? WARD: That is all going to be done. His lawyers will come up with psychiatrists. The government will come up with psychiatrists. And the big question will be: What was his mental condition when he waived either the Miranda rights, etcetera? And if it's ruled that he was not competent, then all of those statements will be thrown out and they won't be able to brought back into court.
MALZBERG: And what was his mental condition when he fought against the United States of America? I would like to know what his mental condition was then. I'm sure it was pretty fine.
WARD: See now, Steve, when he crossed into Afghanistan, what was the attitude of the Bush administration towards the Taliban?
BOORTZ: What difference does that make?
(CROSSTALK)
WARD: I am just asking. When he went into Afghanistan and he was with the Taliban, what was the Bush administration's attitude towards the Taliban?
BOORTZ: So we are going to put the Bush administration on trial.
(CROSSTALK)
WARD: What was the Clinton and the Bush administration? If I remember correctly, the Bush administration...
BOORTZ: Ding, ding, guys. We have got -- Bernie, got somebody in the audience. Love listening to you. Got somebody in the audience.
Go ahead, Chris.
WARD: I can teach you a lot, Neal.
STAFF: This is Ed from Stone Mountain, Georgia.
ED: I am very tired of all the apologists for criminal behavior.
WARD: Alleged criminal behavior.
ED: Of alleged criminal behavior and for true criminal behavior. And I think it is time that someone who makes adult decisions pays adult prices.
WARD: And you of course presume he is innocent, correct?
MALZBERG: Listen, Bernie, how does it feel to be lonely out on the left lunatic fringe?
(CROSSTALK)
WARD: You understand more than anybody, Steve, that when you have come up against me before, you know I'm not a lunatic or you wouldn't have come out on the short so often.
MALZBERG: I said you are the lunatic liberal left fringe.
(CROSSTALK)
WARD: Steve, let me understand your position. It is liberal and lunatic to want the guy to have a presumption of innocence. It is lunatic and liberal to make sure that he did not waive his rights and that he was mentally capable to do it. And it is a lunatic and it is liberal in this country to let the guy have a trial before you hang him?
MALZBERG: Nobody said he shouldn't have a trial.
WARD: You did. You already did.
MALZBERG: I just don't understand why he is not being charged with treason.
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: You are sitting there and you're defending him and making excuses for him.
(CROSSTALK)
WARD: You'd hang him right now, Steve, if you could.
BOORTZ: Bernie, Steve, cool it.
WARD: That's why in you're in New York, where they hang people on the street.
MALZBERG: Right. Right. Don't get me started on San Francisco.
BOORTZ: Look, we have somebody in the audience from across the pond in England, where "The Daily Mirror" had a rather uncomplimentary editorial opinion about our treatment of the detainees in Guantanamo.
But Chris has a young lady from Great Britain.
STAFF: Yes, this is Joan.
Go ahead.
JOAN: Well, in the United Kingdom, the age for voting is 18. And I understand that stands in the United States. And I think, if this young man is old enough to vote, he is old enough to know better than to perform an act of treason against his country.
WARD: Well, he is not accused of treason.
MALZBERG: Not yet.
WARD: And the president of United States said he deliberately did not accuse him of treason. But Steve knows better than the president as well.
(CROSSTALK)
BOORTZ: OK, guys, listen, we'll let you talk to each other during the break.
MALZBERG: And that's what I said. It was still an option.
BOORTZ: Steve, Bernie?
MALZBERG: Yes.
BOORTZ: It's been real. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
MALZBERG: Neal, you can come over for pot roast any time you want.
BOORTZ: I am on the way, guys. You be good.
MALZBERG: Bye-bye.
BOORTZ: And still ahead of us today: What does it mean when somebody gives you $28 million to go away? I don't know, but I would like to find out.
We'll be right back in just moment. Boy, I would love that deal.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Mariah's tarnished glitter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They get to a certain level and they pick up these things as basically a financial reward for a very successful career. And then it seems like they just sort of rest on their laurels.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Why the diva's disk did not deliver -- next on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOORTZ: OK, now, how would you like a deal like this, folks? Mariah Carey is being paid by Virgin Records $28 million to walk away. I thought we were going to have video of Mariah walking away. That would have been nice.
But her album "Glitter" did not do all that well. It only sold a half-a-million copies. So now $28 million to say goodbye. Somebody says that makes up to about $25 bucks for every C.D. she sold of "Glitter."
With us now: Chris John Farley, senior writer for "TIME" magazine, the author of -- I have trouble with this -- "Aaliyah" -- did I do that right?
CHRISTOPHER JOHN FARLEY, "TIME": That's right.
BOORTZ: "More Than a Woman." He interviewed Mariah Carey a couple of times. Also with us: David Adelson, music correspondent for E! Television.
And, gentlemen, what is going on here? Is this good for Mariah Carey, bad for Mariah? Well, $28 million, how could it be bad for Mariah Carey?
DAVID ADELSON, E!: Well, really, it's an economic move on the part of EMI. But, obviously, it is a very healthy payoff. The question is: Will Mariah Carey land on her feet? And the answer is absolutely. The music industry is an industry. And money talks. Everything else walks. And, ultimately, another record company is going to want to sign her and try to help their market share and their profit margin.
FARLEY: Yes, because the thing about Mariah Carey is that she is not like a pop star like, say, Britney Spears or 'N Sync, where they only have kind of a set time period where they are going to be able to sell their records. I think she has long-lasting talent. And so I think -- she is in a new film coming out, "Wise Girls." She is going to be singing the national anthem at the Super Bowl.
So she has got gigs lined up. And some smart record company is going to sign her up, remake her image a little bit. She will go on Barbara Walters or some show like that, cry a little bit, and her records will go through the roof. So I think that she still has a good career in front of her.
ADELSON: I absolutely agree with that. I believe that there is a marketing executive sitting there at a record company right now deciding how to best capitalize on what is happening here.
BOORTZ: Well, how do you go from platinum albums and all of a sudden you have a new release and it sells 500,000? What happens there?
FARLEY: Well, part of the problem is that it was a bad album associated with a bad movie. That has happened in the past with artists. Like, Vanilla Ice was on top of the world before he released "Cool as Ice." No one wanted to see the film. No one wanted to hear the album associated with it. His career went away pretty quickly.
And I think that Mariah Carey faced the same problem with this album because it is associated with a dog. But I think that she is going to be able to disassociate herself from the movie pretty quickly, sign up for some other movies, some other gigs. She did a guest-starring appearance on "Ally McBeal." I think we're going to see her pop up from time to time in things like that in the future to help rehabilitate her career.
ADELSON: And the music industry is extremely cyclical. So the question is: Should Mariah Carey have been signed to that initial contract, the $80 million overall?
Well, the answer is evident in that the executives who signed Mariah Carey to their contract have been dismissed by the very same executives who have since terminated the contract with Mariah Carey.
BOORTZ: A very stable business. Now, my radio cohort, who has an alter to Mariah Carey in his home, Royal Marshall, has a comment or a question.
Royal, how you doing?
ROYAL MARSHALL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I'm very good, Neal. And you're doing an excellent job this week on TALKBACK LIVE. I want to throw that in there.
BOORTZ: Thank you very much.
(APPLAUSE)
MARSHALL: But, as far as Mariah Carey, I want to say that we have a wonderful opportunity to see an artist who can actually sing, which, in today's age, is not a necessarily a requirement for music, if you have listened to a lot of music.
So Mariah will bounce back on her feet. I think she is going to be fine. I hope that she holds her head up high, takes this $28 million, takes a vacation, gets away from all the drama and comes back maybe in six or nine months with a fresh appeal. I'm sure any smart record company out there would pick her up. If I had enough money, I would sign her for sure, because she is really an artist that can sing and can perform.
Acting questionable, but somebody is, if they are thinking on their right feet, they are going to sign her real quick.
BOORTZ: Royal and I were wondering this morning if the problem with her album, gentlemen, was that it actually had melody in it?
FARLEY: It was a bad album. And the one problem with it also, was that Virgin Records was trying to position her as yet another teeny-bop pop star. And she is 31 years old. She didn't need to compete with people like Britney Spears and people like Mandy Moore. Her competition really was the Whitney Houstons of the world and the Celine Dions of the world and the Shania Twains, the divas who have been around for a while and have a track record.
And really to try position her for that kind of really sort of dreamy teen-pop audience really was a mistake. And it showed in the sales of the album, 500,000 copies, when in the past, some of her albums have moved over seven million copies.
ADELSON: For the record, I think to blame Virgin Records -- the rap inside the music industry is, is that Mariah Carey decided to take control of her own career, of every aspect after being in a very controlling situation at her previous label, Sony Music.
Now the rap is, she is better -- she is more likely to survive if she is given some guidance, some outside guidance.
BOORTZ: Gentlemen, this question...
FARLEY: Mariah Carey has always I think required some guidance. But she has been someone who has been in control of her own career. She co-wrote almost every one of her No. 1 hits. And she has had like 15 No. 1 hits. She co-wrote pretty much all of them except for the Michael Jackson remake. So she has been in control of her career for some time. But she always has required some guidance.
BOORTZ: Well, let me ask you this. And this question, it is just me, and it insensitive. We have young American men and women on the firing line shooting and being shot at in Afghanistan. We have thousands of Americans that have just lost their life savings, their future, their pension plans due to the Enron collapse. We have a lot of really serious problems facing this country now.
The question I would like both you gentlemen to tell me, why should anybody watching this TV show really care what is going to happen to Mariah Carey?
(APPLAUSE)
FARLEY: Obviously they do, for you booked this segment on CNN's TALKBACK LIVE.
BOORTZ: I am serious. I'm trying to -- why is it -- obviously, it is a story that has legs. I want to know why. Is it because people are trying to escape from the problems into the entertainment world? Why?
FARLEY: Well, I think part of it is escape. It is fun to finally get away from some of the other problems and talk about something that doesn't have as much substance, Mariah Carey, pop music. Part of it is because her music really is woven into the '90s and now this new decade as well.
And you think of her song "Hero," which got a lot play after 9/11, people were talking about it or listened to the song. And so now that she has gotten in some trouble, people are talking about it even more, because she has put a lot of songs out there. She has made a lot of money for the record companies. She also had sold 150 million albums worldwide. So it's quite a significant amount of product to move. So she is a business. And people want to talk about a business that is failing.
BOORTZ: And maybe it is a needed escape at this time?
ADELSON: Yes, it is the public's obsession with celebrity. That continues and continues to feed upon each other. And when someone fails, it seems the public is even more interested. And Mariah Carey had a very public falling on her face.
FARLEY: Yes, basically, Mariah Carey is a very good-looking Enron, and so people are going to talk about it.
(LAUGHTER)
BOORTZ: That is a great line, Chris, a great line. And, Chris Farley, David Adelson, thank you so much. Glad you could join with us.
And we are out time, ladies and gentlemen, on TALKBACK LIVE for today. I am Neal Boortz. I'll be back for one more day tomorrow. Then I get my coffee mug. That will be at 3:00 Eastern.
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