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American Morning

Look at Interview with Osama Bin Laden by Al Jazeera

Aired February 01, 2002 - 05:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Up front this morning, an extraordinary piece of videotape, an interview with Osama bin Laden recording back in late October by the Arab language Al Jazeera television network. They didn't air it, saying it wasn't newsworthy.

Now, CNN has obtained it and parts of the one hour interview CNN found very newsworthy.

Wolf Blitzer has a report. And just to remind you, CNN did not conduct this interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Late October, in the only television interview with Osama bin Laden since the September 11 attacks, broadcast here for the first time, he makes clear the war of terror is not finished.

OSAMA BIN LADEN: The battle has moved to inside America. We will work to continue this battle, God permitting, until victory, or until we meet God.

BLITZER: And he paints a grim picture for life under his terror threat.

BIN LADEN: I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life.

BLITZER: The interview with Osama bin Laden was conducted by the Kabul reporter for the Arabic language Al Jazeera television network. It took place just before the U.S. and its allies began their final rout of the Taliban, before bin Laden and al Qaeda's leadership fled for their lives.

The reporter's first question, about bin Laden's role September 11.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: America claims it has convincing evidence of your collusion in the events in New York and Washington. What is your answer?

BIN LADEN: America has made many accusations against us and many other Muslims around the world. Its charge that we are carrying out acts of terrorism is unwarranted.

BLITZER: That may sound like a denial, but listen to what he says only moments later.

BIN LADEN: If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists.

BLITZER: A slightly different translation was quoted by British Prime Minister Tony Blair in a speech to parliament last November.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Bin Laden himself said on October the 20 in an broadcast videotape that, and I quote, ``If avenging the killing of our people is terrorism, let history be a witness that we are terrorists.'' Mr. Speaker, they are terrorists and history will judge them as such.

BLITZER: Blair's speech is evidence that copies of this videotape have circulated for some time in intelligence circles on both sides of the Atlantic, though until now it has never been seen in public. Intelligence sources tell CNN the U.S. government independently obtained the interview shortly after it was completed.

CNN obtained this copy of the tape from a non-governmental source.

(on camera): Al Jazeera says it does not know precisely where the interview was taped. It has not aired the tape. Early on, the network even denied its existence. It says it was offered the chance to do the interview in person after the news organization submitted written questions to bin Laden, including some questions from CNN.

But CNN did not know about the taping until a ``New York Times'' story revealed the interview's existence.

In a December statement to CNN, Al Jazeera said it did not air the interview because it did not meet its standards and was not newsworthy.

In the interview, bin Laden was asked directly whether he's responsible for the anthrax attacks in the United States and elsewhere, but his answer is vague.

BIN LADEN: These diseases are a punishment from God and a response to oppressed mothers' prayers in Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine and everywhere.

BLITZER: The reporter seems to have a professional rapport with bin Laden and even interrupts him to ask questions, as in this exchange.

BIN LADEN: We kill the kings of the infidels, kings of the crusaders and civilian infidels in exchange for those of our children they killed. This is permissible in Islamic law, and logically...

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So what you're saying is this is a type of reciprocal treatment -- they kill our innocents, so we kill their innocents?

BIN LADEN: So we kill their innocents. And I say it's permissible in Islamic law and logic.

BLITZER: This tape is different from a series of taped addresses bin Laden delivered to Al Jazeera. During this one hour interview, bin Laden ridicules White House requests to the U.S. news media to show discretion in broadcasting those addresses.

BIN LADEN: They made hilarious claims. They said that Osama's messages have codes in them to the terrorists. It's as if we were living in the time of mail by carrier pigeon, when there were no phones, no travelers, no Internet, no regular mail, no express mail and no electronic mail. I mean these are very humorous things. They discount people's intellects.

BLITZER: Bin Laden himself discounts the possibility of the defeat of his forces. Remember, this was late October, before the street celebrations that marked the fall of Kabul, well before the new head of Afghanistan's interim government was saluted at President Bush's State of the Union address.

BIN LADEN: We believe that the defeat of America is possible with the help of God and is even easier for us, God permitting, than the defeat of the Soviet Union was.

BLITZER: To back that up, bin Laden cites the 1993 U.S. experience in Somalia, when 18 U.S. special operations forces were killed during a raid against a warlord faction in Mogadishu.

BIN LADEN: Our brothers who were here in Afghanistan tested the Americans and together with some of the Somali Mujahedeen, God granted them victory. America exited, dragging its tails in failure, defeat and ruin.

BLITZER: These words, evidence of bin Laden's miscalculation. Throughout the tape, bin Laden appears confident of success, confident of victory. He apparently did not foresee that within days he would be running for his life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: That was Wolf Blitzer reporting.

We need to make a couple of quick points about this bin Laden tape. Al Jazeera is very unhappy that CNN has aired this interview, an interview they got and shot but did not air. They say they did not air the tape because it wasn't newsworthy. Well, they have also severed their relationship with CNN over this dispute, claiming we stole the interview and aired it illegally. CNN strongly disputes that and insists that the tape is being broadcast because it is newsworthy.

Joining us now from Washington for a closer look now at the bin Laden interview, CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen.

Good morning. Good to have you with us again on A.M., Peter.

PETER BERGEN, TERRORISM ANALYST: Good morning.

ZAHN: All right, Peter, before we talk about the substance of this tape, let's once again talk about Al Jazeera here. OK, at first Al Jazeera says they denied, you know, that it even existed. Then they came out and said they never aired it because it wasn't newsworthy.

Well, you've seen this tape. Is maybe a more rational explanation they didn't want to air this because it was so indicting? BERGEN: You know, I'm frankly very puzzled. You know, this was the only television interview that bin Laden ever gave and frankly if he was reading out of the telephone book it would be newsworthy. And the fact is that there is quite a lot of, it is very indicting. I mean he, on a couple of occasions he basically seems to take responsibility for the events of 9-11. He sort of ducks the question of anthrax. But this is all very interesting.

So frankly I'm just perplexed why they chose not to air it. I mean I'm not part, privy to all the facts of the case. But it's a very puzzling episode.

ZAHN: The U.S. government also obtained this independently, as Wolf Blitzer just reported. So what was the incentive in holding this back from the American public? BERGEN: Well, Paula, I mean, again, I'm just really, really perplexed and, you know, Al Jazeera bills its reputation as being a sort of independent broadcaster in the Middle East, different from some of the other broadcasters that are basically government entities. Perhaps they came under some pressure from their own government, the government of Qatar, not to broadcast this.

But I think there's some facts that we don't know yet which will elucidate this funny and rather strange episode.

ZAHN: Many Islamic analysts have suggested that Osama bin Laden has always distorted the Muslim faith. What do you make of his continued references to it's permissible under Islamic law for innocents to kill other innocents?

BERGEN: Well, it's just, just ludicrous. I'm not an Islamic scholar. But I mean there's nothing -- and the Koran is very, very explicit about even if you accept the dubious premise that somehow this holy war was justified, civilians are off limits in any kind of war as far as the Koran and as far as Islamic traditions are concerned.

Bin Laden is, you know, this is a very unusual interpretation. It cannot be justified in Islam.

ZAHN: The last interview you did with bin Laden was back in 1997. How different was the Osama bin Laden we saw in this tape, the interview taped late in October of 2001? BERGEN: He's actually quite similar. I mean the big difference, I mean, in terms of his sort of his demeanor and his voice and these kinds of things are quite similar. I mean the big difference is that he's aged enormously in the last, between '97 and October of last year. This is a man who was clearly not well. I mean, as you see from these pictures here, he's really, by December he's looking pretty terrible. But by December, of course, that tape that was aired then, he's barely moving the left side of his body. So he's clearly got, you know, he's got diabetes. He has low blood pressure. He's got a wound in his foot. He's apparently got dialysis, you know, for kidney problems. I mean this is a man who has a number of health problems, apart from the fact that anybody running around the Afghan mountains is not going to be in great shape.

ZAHN: And, of course, the question that people continue to debate is not only is he not well, is he still alive today?

Peter Bergen, thank you very much for coming along to share your insights with us this morning. BERGEN: Thank you, Paula.

ZAHN: Appreciate your time.

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