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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Interview with Richard Shelby, Robert Torricelli

Aired March 05, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: Backed by waves of airstrikes, U.S. led forces slug it out in the frigid mountains with a determined enemy.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are far from over.

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BLITZER: Was the U.S. prepared for this fight? Is it getting in too deep? We'll go live to the Pentagon and to Afghanistan. And I'll speak live with Senate intelligence vice chairman Richard Shelby and Foreign Relations Committee member Robert Torricelli as we go into the WAR ROOM.

Good evening, I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from the CNN center in Atlanta. U.S. troops remain engaged in heavy fighting in eastern Afghanistan. They're facing entrenched al Qaeda and Taliban fighters who apparently are ready to fight to the death. That's because many of them are not Afghans, they're Arabs, Chechens, Pakistanis and others convinced they have no place else to go.

Help is on the way for those U.S. forces and allied forces who are on the ground who have their hands full battling in the rugged mountains near Gardez. Let's go live to CNN national security correspondent David Ensor. He's at the Pentagon -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, some of the painful details about how some of the American forces were killed in the last few days are now coming out here. Amid the announcement that there will be reinforcements sent to the area, at least seven Marine helicopters, five of them Cobra gunships are being sent from the north Arabian sea into the area around Gardez to reinforce those troops, about 2000 of them, about half of those U.S., that have surrounded this rather large pocket of resistance from al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in the Gardez area.

The Pentagon today released some new video. The first of Operation Ananconda, and it shows the soldiers of the 101st Army battalion preparing, moving into the area, gradually moving up into higher terrain very heavily equipped for fighting and for the weather, which is pretty cold, as they move into the area there preparing to surround, this is sort of early several days ago, to surround the area that they have now got surrounded and covered. The spokesman from the Pentagon, Victoria Clarke said this operation may take a while and there may be some more fierce fighting yet to come.

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VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: We have always said that the further this went on, the harder it would get. The people who are left fighting the al Qaeda are among the toughest, the most violent, the most committed to fighting this out to the end. So we always knew it would get extremely difficult.

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ENSOR: Again we have new details on how the Americans died. Sadly, some of the commanders from central command found themselves, we are told, watching a video feed from a predator drone surveillance aircraft as one of the soldiers fell off a helicopter as it was leaving very quickly, and then was captured by the enemy. And they watched his execution.

And another incident, the one that ended up in six American deaths, a group of troops were stuck on the ground because their helicopter had to crash-land, and they were stuck on the ground for, officials say between 12 and 14 hours, sometimes under fierce enemy fire. That led to the six deaths and 11 wounded in that particular incident. So it is a very punishing fight down there, Wolf. As I say, reinforcements are on the way.

BLITZER: What are you hearing, David, about what is next as far as those reinforcements are concerned? Where is this battle going?

ENSOR: Well, officials here are saying they'll take it as long as it takes. Some are predicting that might be a week or more before this particular pocket of resistance is cleaned out. And then there are other pockets of resistance. Officials saying not as large, but still very determined. Most of these men appear to want to fight to the death. So there may yet be some more American casualties to come, Wolf.

BLITZER: David Ensor at the Pentagon. Thank you very much. And let's go to Afghanistan now, get the latest from what's happening on the ground over there. CNN's Nic Robertson is joining us live. First of all, Nic, give us an update on Operation Anaconada from your perspective, from where you're standing right now or standing in your particular case.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, yesterday we were traveling north to Kabul. We were coming from about 50 miles from the front lines and throughout the day we could see aircraft flying sorties towards the Gardez area where Operation Anaconda is under way.

Every few minutes we could see what appeared to be a B-52 circling high in the sky. We could also see predator aircraft. As we travelled through the mountains, once you get to about 8,000 feet up, you hit this snow line and that is about the level where the operations are beginning in Operation Anaconda against the al Qaeda forces, pushing up higher into the mountains, up to elevations of about 11,000 feet.

Local Afghan fighters who are fighting with the coalition forces there, some of them have been equipped with mountain parkas by U.S. military forces. And some of those returning from the front lines say that what they are doing, they're using the bombing to hit the al Qaeda positions and then moving their forces slowly up through the mountains.

However they do say that this is a slow operation. And they do say that they believe it could take another four or five days. At least what we're hearing from regional officials when we were in that area is that they think the al Qaeda and Taliban are getting support from villages, from towns who are sympathetic to them. That's how they're getting their weapons. That's how they're managing to hold out at this time, or at least how they were able to build up their strongholds in the last few months.

Also just north of here, Wolf, Bagram Air Base. It was an air base that's been used for humanitarian air lifts. It has been used in the military effort here, but now very much that is a major staging center. It lies about 85, 90 miles north of Gardez airstrip and that is now becoming a major operational base for the action in Operation Anaconda around Gardez about 100 miles south of here -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic, you've been here right from the beginning, right from the start of the U.S. air strikes. The conventional wisdom here is that this is the fiercest fighting the U.S. has had since the beginning. Is that the impression you're getting from where you are?

ROBERTSON: Difficult to tell from our standpoint. Difficult to get close to the front lines. Certainly regional leaders, politicians, military commanders we have talked to along the way to get to Kabul in this region, say that they're concerned that the fighting could overspill, that it is of an intensity and a size and a scale that could have a fate on the area.

Of course the operations we've seen since the main thrust of the bombing finished in December have been smaller scale operations, not lasting long, not able to perhaps destabilize an area. But now some politicians are concerned. But interestingly, Wolf, when we traveled up here, we passed through many small villages. We talked to some people, local storekeepers in those villages, and surprisingly, they just seemed unaware that Operation Anaconda was under way and that something involving Afghan and coalition forces on such a large scale could be happening so close to them perhaps 50, 60 miles away at that time -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson on the scene in Afghanistan. Thanks very much for that report. This note, Nic will be back at the top of the hour in about 15 minutes with a SPECIAL REPORT: LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN. That's at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

So did U.S. forces know what they were getting into when they launched Operation Anaconda? Is there an exit strategy? Joining me now in the CNN WAR ROOM, Senator Richard Shelby, he is the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Senator Robert Torricelli; he's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Remember, you can e-mail your questions to us. Go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily column.

Senator Torricelli, from what you know, was the U.S. caught by surprise by the fierce resistance that they've discovered over there in eastern Afghanistan?

SEN. ROBERT TORRICELLI (D-NJ), FOREIGN RELATIONS CMTE: I think it was assumed that there were significant pockets in the mountain regions of eastern Afghanistan to still be uncovered. Probably the size of it, the numbers of weapons, came as a surprise. But I also think, for all the tragedy, the loss of life, that we should all take note of the fact that it is better to have encountered these forces here, than the belief we had a few weeks ago, which is they had escaped into Pakistan and were now scattering throughout the world. They are contained. They cannot escape. And they will be destroyed. So through all the tragedy of this fighting, it has some significant benefits over the alternatives.

BLITZER: Senator Shelby, you were critical of the intelligence community early on right after September 11. Are you critical of them now for perhaps underestimating what was going on with these al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in eastern Afghanistan?

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL), INTELLIGENCE VICE CHMN: Well, Wolf, I think overall they're doing a great job as far as tactical intelligence in Afghanistan. And I don't believe they were really surprised at the intensity of the firefight here. They know these people are going to fight basically to the death.

They're trapped and we're going to destroy them. Is it going to take three days, four days, a week? We're not sure. But I'll tell you, we've got the forces, some of our most elite troops are there, the 101st Airborne elements are there. They're going to get the job done. You can count on it.

BLITZER: And that was reinforced by Brigadier General John Rosa of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Listen to what he said to reporters earlier today.

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BRIG. GEN. JOHN ROSA, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We have killed people. They are not roaming around freely like they were. They are dug in, they're hunkered in. We've got a simultaneous attack at times with air from the U.S. and coalition forces. But I think it's tougher on them right now, and they're not moving quite as freely..........

ROSA: ... like they were. They're dug in. They're hunkered in. We've got a simultaneous attack at times with air from the U.S. and coalition forces. But I think it's tougher on them right now and they're not moving quite as freely.

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BLITZER: The fact is, Senator Torricelli, they do move around over there, these fighters, and presumably they think they have no place else to go. So this could be a long, drawn out battle right now, given the elevation, the terrain, and everything else that's going on over there.

TORRICELLI: Well, and I hope that the American people are patient. Again, these are people who may have chosen not to flee or not to try to melt into the population. They went into this region. They are fighting to the death. They are the most desperate kind of enemy. So if it takes a little more time, let's take it.

We also want to be safe for the lives of American soldiers. In the end, we know the outcome of this. We'll destroy them. They are surrounded. There's nowhere to go. But I hope the American people will be patient so that this is done right.

BLITZER: Senator Shelby, I want to read to you a question a viewer sent us via e-mail. Chuck from Columbia, Missouri, asks this question, and I got to tell you, a lot of viewers are asking this question now: "Do we have an exit strategy for Afghanistan or are we just taking it day by day?"

SHELBY: I believe we have an exit strategy, but that is first to win the war against the terrorists. We have to do this. We didn't go in there to make a quick exit. We made clear our position all along, Wolf, that we have no intention of staying in Afghanistan. We're not going to be occupiers. But we're going to be friends of the people who want to get rid of the terrorists there. We have to do this. We do have an exit strategy: victory.

BLITZER: Senator Torricelli, should the U.S. be playing a more active role in the international peacekeeping force that's under way already in Kabul? But if it expands outside of the capital of Afghanistan, should the U.S. directly be involved in peacekeeping together with the British, the Turks, and other coalition partners? TORRICELLI: Well, inevitably, Wolf, we will play some role in peacekeeping, no matter what our current intentions because only the United States has the capability to airlift the forces and provide the infrastructure. Now I do think the administration has a proper division of labor, with American forces potentially in Georgia and Yemen and the Philippines and a host of other countries, asking our allies to do the peacekeeping in Afghanistan while we remain engaged in combat there and in these other operations, I think is a proper assignment for each of us.

BLITZER: Senator Shelby, you agree?

SHELBY: I basically agree. I believe we've made our position clear all along that we need our allies to keep the peace, to bring stability. We're going to help. But we're there to win the war. I think we bring the weapons and we bring the expertise there, and everybody knows that now.

BLITZER: Here's another e-mail question for you, Senator Torricelli. Meg in Montclair, New Jersey -- a place that you probably know quite well -- "I was under the impression that U.S. airstrikes in October and November were met with little antiaircraft fire. If so, do we understand how it is available to the al Qaeda and Taliban fighters now", given the fighting that's going on in eastern Afghanistan, those two U.S. helicopters that went down?

TORRICELLI: Well, antiaircraft is a very generic term. The antiaircraft that might have been used against U.S. bombers would have to strike at extremely high altitudes. Largely that did not happen. They did not have that capability.

These helicopters were struck by shoulder-fired weapons that can operate at lower altitudes. They could have even been a firing of rocket-propelled grenades, which are not even an antiaircraft weapon. Whether it was one of those or other shoulder weapons, I don't know. But this is of a different magnitude. This is against helicopters operating at very low altitudes. So this inevitably would happen in close combat.

BLITZER: And, Senator Shelby, other viewers are already looking down the road. A lot of attention, as you well know, being focused on Iraq.

Let me read to you a question we got from Jack in Phoenix, Arizona: "I have noticed the rather scant amount of U.S. and coalition troops in Afghanistan as well as in Georgia and the Philippines. Do you think that the U.S. could be preparing the rest of its armed forces for an assault on Iraq?"

SHELBY: Well, I think right now, Wolf, we're concentrating on finishing the job that we started to do in Afghanistan. We'll do that. But, Iraq has to be an option. The administration has been fairly clear on that. Will we go in there at all? I think, first, we're going to demand through the U.N., and we should, weapons inspectors there and see what happens then.

But, remember, you can't trust Saddam Hussein, not with all the money and all the stuff that he would buy there.

BLITZER: Senator Fred Thompson, among others, Senator Torricelli, says that sending in weapons inspectors right now would be counterproductive because they'd just be on a wild goose chase over the next months, and perhaps years, giving Saddam Hussein plenty of time to develop weapons of mass destruction. Are you among those who agree with him?

TORRICELLI: Actually, I do not. I think that the history of the weapons inspection program was actually quite good in Iraq until they were forced out of the country by Saddam Hussein. With the kind of technology that is available, it may not be perfect inspections. But in finding atomic weapons and detecting chemical weapons, doing spot inspections, it gives us some degree of assurance.

The alternative is, at the moment, we have no degree of assurance. And it is one thing to talk about an invasion of Iraq. Militarily, it's another to actually do it. We do not have any allies that would support an invasion. We have no basis of operation in the region made available to us. I am not certain that an invasion is actually a very practical alternative.

What is a practical alternative is striking by the air facilities where he might be making these weapons and having inspectors that can, at least, eliminate some locations and help us focus on where these sites might be. That's why I would hope we can get inspectors back into Iraq.

BLITZER: All right. Senators, stand by. We have a lot more to talk about. We have to take a quick break. When we come back, I'll ask Senators Torricelli and Shelby whether the Bush administration is consulting adequately with members of the U.S. Congress. Stay with us.

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SHELBY: ... and we are briefed on some things that others aren't.

BLITZER: Senator Shelby, were you aware of the standby government that's been in place outside of Washington, 100 senior officials in place in case of a catastrophe here in Washington? Had you been aware of that?

SHELBY: I've been aware of it, but I was aware of it because I asked about it when the -- there was so many things in the press regarding the vice president, Vice President Cheney being missing, not being seen, and that led us to believe that they were making sure, for safety reasons, for the continuity of government, that the president and the vice president not be together so much, which makes a lot of sense. And I asked about something to that effect to someone, and they basically told me what was going on with the other. But I didn't say anything about it. I thought it was best not to.

BLITZER: What about that, Senator Torricelli? As you know, Senator Daschle complained the other day, Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia complained. Senator Biden, the chairman of your committee, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee complained that they weren't being given enough information, the co-equal branch of government. What do you say?

TORRICELLI: Well, Wolf, I think to date people have been understanding. That the country was attacked and we were going to war and the president was gracious with his own time. And I think there was an effort in the opening weeks to give as much information as they could. Much of what was happening in those first weeks we were all discovering as we went along. But we're in a new phase of it now, the administration is asking for tens of billions of dollars, and while the president has his responsibilities as commander-in-chief, we have our constitutional responsibilities as the protector of the public purse.

While the president may lead the armed forces, we all have some responsibility for the lives of those soldiers. So I think that while I would not complain about briefings to date, what has happened to date will not be adequate going forward. Many of us in the Senate were very concerned. Senator Biden was actually in Afghanistan, was not given the kind of access or briefings that I think would befit someone in his position. Or, in fact, any United States senator. The country can't in a Democratic society conduct wars like that.

We have responsibilities to ensure this money is spent properly, that the strategy is protecting our country. After all, we're all prepared to follow the president when he's right. But we all have -- we all have our duties.

BLITZER: Senator Shelby, there were some moving pictures taken of U.S. casualties, caskets, servicemen being brought home at Ramstein, the U.S. base in Germany earlier today.

In earlier encounters, in Somalia, in particular, once the American public saw these pictures, there was criticism of the Clinton administration, and the U.S. sort of picked up and left rather quickly. Is there that possibility of that developing now?

SHELBY: I would hope not but, you know, we all deplore events like this. We know that we're going to take casualties. We see the men and women of our forces, who are all volunteers, who have volunteered for the services, and they pay a price. They're professionals. They know we have to win this war, and we're going to win it. But we're going to have, Wolf, more casualties. It's just part of the nature of war. We can't get away from it.

BLITZER: Senator Shelby, Senator Torricelli. Always good to have both of you on the program. Thanks to both of you for joining us here...

TORRICELLI: Thanks very much.

BLITZER: ... in the CNN Wolf.

SHELBY: Thank you. BLITZER: And remember, I want to hear from you. Please go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. Click on the designation for comments. We'll read them, all of them. Either I'll read them or my producers will read them. We'll read them every single day.

And when we return, each day brings new violence in the Middle East. We'll have the latest on the rising death toll in our check of today's top stories. Stay with us.

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BLITZER: Checking our "News Alert," President Bush and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak met at the White House to talk about the violence in the Middle East. The president called for Palestinians to do more to end the attacks by extremists. President Mubarak made a similar comment, but also said Israel should ease up on the Palestinians. The death toll in today's violence, at least six Palestinians and five Israelis. As Israel bombed targets in the West Bank and Gaza, Palestinians attacked targets in Israel.

Pakistan says it will put the key suspect in the Daniel Pearl murder case on trial there, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh is accused of masterminding the kidnapping and killing "The Wall Street Journal" reporter. The United States is pushing for Saeed Sheikh's extradition. No decision has been made on whether he will be turned over to the U.S. after his trial in Pakistan.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until them, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer at the CNN Center in Atlanta. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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