Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Today

Legal Perspective on Sentencing Phase of Andrea Yates Case

Aired March 13, 2002 - 10:16   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get some legal perspective on this case.

Rusty Hardin is a former prosecutor, now a criminal defense attorney, Robert Gordon a psychologist with a law degree.

Both men are joining us from outside the Houston courthouse.

Gentlemen, good morning.

Rusty, I start with you. What struck me at first with this verdict was the speed of the jury. It seems that they barely sat down in the deliberation room, and they were back with those guilty pleas.

RUSTY HARDIN, FMR. PROSECUTOR: That is a little over three hours, which you're right, it was much quicker. I think there was a disconnect between observers, the media or the public at large, were perceiving at large and what the jury perceived. If you notice what they asked for, they sent one note back for the insanity, for a definition, and they asked for a recorder, and the only thing the recorder could have heard would have been the 911 tape and her confession.

I think it is pretty clear that what they did hear is they simply decided that her actions and words at the times spoke clearer to them as to whether she knew what she was doing was wrong than the argument of the defense. Remember the argument of the defense had to be (ph), and they did it very, very well. But it still was that yes, she knew what she did was legally wrong, and she knew that society would think it was wrong, but in her tortured mind, she thought it was right. That is a hard argument to succeed on, even though they did a very good job.

KAGAN: Doesn't it almost set the defense up for failure, the way the Texas law is written. Does it almost makes it impossible for them to get the kind of ruling they want from the jury?

ROBERT GORDON, PSYCHOLOGIST: From my perspective, that is clearly so, Daryn, because the Texas law doesn't allow to you be guilty and insane. I think, and Rusty may agree, that if that would have been the case and had that option been available, I think the deliberations would have taken 10 minutes, not three and a half hours.

HARDIN: I agree with that, guilty but insane is something we can only guess. My guess is that would have been much easier for the jury to solve. I do think this is not a Texas issue. The McNaughton rule that Texas has been the oldest, longest-standing broadest used definition. It is more a question of the legal profession's weight of defining insanity rather than Texas.

KAGAN: All right, let's look forward in terms of what happened to Andrea Yates. The big question that will begin tomorrow, is does she get the death penalty? Rusty, you were the prosecutor in the Carla Fay Tucker case...

HARDIN: Actually, in her co-defendant's. I used Carla Fay Tucker as a witness, but in those cases, yes.

KAGAN: Well, in any case, did you not testify that you thought that she should not get the death penalty because in the case of Carla Fay Tucker, she wasn't a danger to society. And isn't this in fact a question that this jury must answer about Andrea Yates. Is she a danger, from this point forward, to society?

HARDIN: You are right, that is the question, is whether or not if you believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the probability she would commit insane or dangerous acts in the future, and I think -- or criminal acts of violence in the future, and I think the answer to that should be no, and the other question they have to answer is whether or not they believe that there are mitigating circumstances, even though she was guilty, that keep her from being a right candidate for the death penalty.

Carla Fay Tucker's deal was a little bit different. It wasn't that she wasn't a danger, but it was that she cooperated and did everything she did, and had truly changed. I just do not think this jury is going to be able to unanimously conclude that they answered each of these questions yes so she gets the death penalty.

KAGAN: Robert, let's bring you back in here. Thinking about, let's just say the possibility that they do, the question of putting a mentally ill person to death. There has never been a question here that Andrea Yates has a severe mental health problem. Do you try to make somebody mentally healthy so that in fact you can put them to death.

GORDON: That is a fascinating question, but I think what will happen here is that the jurors, when they we go into the deliberation, will realize that the death penalty and the issues that are so conflicted because of the contradictory psychiatric testimony, that the death penalty says more about ourselves as jurors and citizens than it does about Andrea Yates.

And then also there are some people who believe that life imprisonment is the most severe punishment can be, even more onerous than death. And still others believe that have you to kill her five times to extract justice. So the punishment has to fit the crime, it also has to fit the defendant, it has to fit the jury, and it also has to fit the society in which the crime occurred.

KAGAN: And just real quickly, as we say goodbye, Rusty, if she ends up in prison the rest of her life, is there the kind of help within the Texas prison system, the kind of psychiatric help that clearly Andrea Yates needs?

HARDIN: She can get it. Whether it's the quality people need, no. She has to serve a minimum of 40 years. Real quickly, I don't think it's clear that the state is going to aggressively seek the death penalty. My guess is they are not going to put on any evidence Thursday. They will simply stand up, simply say we rest, we introduced all of the evidence from the case in chief. Defense decides what to put on. I'm not even sure that it is clear that the prosecutors will ask the jury to answer those two questions yes. I think they're going to leave it up to the jury.

KAGAN: Interesting. Put it in the hands of the jury. A huge responsibility those people serving on the jury there.

Robert Gordon, Rusty Hardin, thank you for your insights, gentlemen, this morning. Pleasure to have you with us from Houston.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com