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CNN Live Today

Interview with Michael Wildes, Jerry Sullivan

Aired March 14, 2002 - 13:50   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The president is stunned. The attorney general is furious, and the INS, Immigration and Naturalization Service is on notice. The story broke first here on CNN. The INS on Monday sent letters to a Florida flight school approving student visas for two of the terrorists involved the attacks on 9-11. That is Monday, six months to the day after the attacks.

Lawmakers now calling for an overhaul of the INS and at least one wants the agency abolished all together. Joining us to talk about it, Michael Wildes, a U.S. immigration attorney from New York. Jerry Sullivan, executive director of the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers. That is one heck of a title, Jerry. Good afternoon to you as well.

Gentlemen, let's just set the record straight for your viewers. Both of you believe the INS has some measures to take to improve the process it now is currently engaged in. But you disagree on how it should be done.

Michael, to you first. It is my understanding you would rather have the agency completely shut down until it gets its house in order. Clarify that.

MICHAEL WILDES, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: Well, I think it is important that immigration service actually bifurcate itself, separate itself from policing its borders, the military, the intelligence they need to watch and then the adjudications, the visas, green cards and citizenship.

When you look at Mohammed Atta, and the individuals that found their way that committed this atrocity, you see people who came on student visas and were given no sort of controls. They didn't even have to walk with the paper showing that they were approved students. They were able to maneuvered with intelligence agents and actually commit what is unbelievably, unconscionably, in our conscience.

HEMMER: Michael, tell me this, though, if you divide the agency in two essentially, how does that allow the INS to do it's job better?

WILDES: Well, military, intelligence, defense, and INS border concerns are different than adjudications. When you have people applying for green cards or visas it is a different constituency if you would, and there are different terms. Frankly a lot of this should not be made available or public. We see how vulnerable we were. This shows a symptom. If the administrative process was not stopped, then how exhaustive is the investigation or are we as a people of this country just as vulnerable as we were before.

HEMMER: OK, clarification well noted. To Jerry Sullivan. Is that a solution that seems reasonable to you?

JERRY SULLIVAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AACRO: Well, I believe the reorganization or organization of the INS to someone who knows more about it in my opinion, it is an organization that needs help. It is an organization that needs more resources and it is an organization that needs more clearer direction from the American people through Congress.

HEMMER: And your solution is what, then?

SULLIVAN: The solution would be one that is moving forward right now. We just passed legislation called the Patriots Act. Out of the Patriots Act there is particular piece of technology that is trying to improve what is going on there. There is another bill pending right now in front of Congress that will provide training, more technology, ability to bring together data bases.

WILDES: Bill, if you would, that's not enough. In 1996 the government gave monies to design an automated system to watch the half million students we have here. We have no intelligence of what courses, we don't have any intelligence as to what kind of courses they are taking, where these students are. We need to have this.

HEMMER: And you are saying there is no oversight of the students once they arrive here?

WILDES: Absolutely.

SULLIVAN: In fact, that system was set up where the students were going to pay for it themselves rather than the government pay for it. That is part of not giving the right direction.

(CROSSTALK)

WILDES: Forgive me sir. But who cares who pays for it or not. The important thing that it gets done.

HEMMER: Hang on one second, Michael. Go ahead, Jerry.

SULLIVAN: That's a signal, signal to INS that says this is not important when you are saying somebody else pays.

HEMMER: Does Michael have a point when he says there is no oversight? Students come here, don't go to class and essentially fake the fact that they are students.

WILDES: They don't have to carry approval notices wherever they travel.

SULLIVAN: No, they don't. That is also true of people who come here as tourists. People coming here as business people. WILDES: Absolutely. I agree.

SULLIVAN: Students represent 2 percent of the people coming into this country legally -- 2 percent. What is the focus on these particular students? It is a very strange argument. If you need to carry a green card with you wherever you go by law, then a visitor who goes to Disneyland or a student to a school should certainly carry it and we have the right as a government to know what courses they are taking so that we can avoid this.

Imagine a sheriff in a county seeing some material taken and the intelligence service of our country knows that there is a student that is studying something. Mohammed Atta had a tremendous interest in crop dusting. We could have caught this and averted this.

HEMMER: Gentlemen, let me ask you this. I think a lot of Americans heard this story Tuesday when Mark Potter broke it out of Miami, Florida. They were flat-out stunned by this. You heard the president's reaction. Everyone is embarrassed about this. Red faces all around.

Jerry, to you. How did the INS get itself backed up into a situation like this where something like this could indeed take place?

SULLIVAN: It is obviously frustrating. Because we are all afraid of this terrorist activity occurring again in the country. Actually though, this incident would not have prevented one way or another what happened before or what would happen again in the future. All of these, I think it is admitted by all concerned, that these people who committed this heinous act came in legally into this country.

HEMMER: Right, but more to my point, is the INS, is it overloaded? Does it have too many cases backlogged? Are there not enough people? Is it mismanagement? Cut through it for me if you could.

SULLIVAN: There is certainly not enough money to do the job. Let's say they had the technology available to them right now to actually identify these people who, let's say, dropped out of school. They don't have the money to hire the investigators for people to go out and find them and bring them back.

HEMMER: So would an upgrade through cash and technology solve a situation like this, Jerry?

SULLIVAN: I think with technology and legislation that is already on the table, with additional funding and with a focus on this as an issue, both not just for the 2 percent students but also for business people coming in and the tourists coming in, we may get a solution.

HEMMER: Michael, are you of the same mind there?

WILDES: I never thought this was a matter of dollars. For crying out loud, the government prints it. We have diplomats, religious clerics and students that have come in. There are more than 4 million overstays in this country. We have to not only be as vigilant as the Immigration Service has been internationally, but find out how we are going to do it.

Pending legislation and people running the show before are not doing a good enough job.

HEMMER: Gentlemen, let me ask you this. Michael, jump on this first and then, Jerry, I will get your answer. Has the U.S. been able to learn anything from other countries in terms of how tighter they are when it comes to immigration in their own country, Michael?

WILDES: As far as learning immigration, I have to tell you that, if you travel to any airport, if you go on any cruise ship and have you a chance to have a sense of the different immigration controls in different countries, you see how we pale in contrast.

Effectively, people can leave packages at airports. It's not a sterile environment. And there is just so much of a bureaucracy. We pale in contrast. It is just unfortunate. Until the government will actually get its act together. I make a living all day with my practice in trying to help people boot strap themselves on to safe ground. This doesn't mean it has to negate the interest and security of our people.

HEMMER: Jerry, final word.

SULLIVAN: I think one of the problems, I would agree that other countries often have tighter security. I happened to be in Iran about and about a year ago, and noticed much tighter security there than there is coming here. But we have very large numbers of people. We are an open society. We believe in free trade. This is -- we have a lot of people from a lot of other countries who just live here as citizens. It is difficult.

HEMMER: Listen, if nothing else, it was a healthy debate. I think ultimately we all want the same thing here. Hopefully in time we can achieve that. Michael Wildes, Jerry Sullivan, thank you. I appreciate your thoughts today. We will see you going forward if indeed this situation is rectified in the future.

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