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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Osama bin Laden's Network Down, But Not Out; What's Ahead After Operation Anaconda?

Aired March 19, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM, Osama bin Laden's network, down but not out.

The CIA sounds a warning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: Al Qaeda may be pursuing a radioactive dispersal device, what some call a dirty bomb.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: U.S. forces bring one operation to a close. We'll find out what lies ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. F.L. HAGENBACK, U.S. ARMY: The hunt continues. The coalition war against terrorists in Afghanistan is not over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What's the next threat from al Qaeda? Is there an Iraqi connection?

We'll go to Afghanistan, and I'll speak live with veteran terrorism expert Brian Jenkins and retired General Wesley Clark, former NATO supreme allied commander as we go into the WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. Since September 11 we have not heard much in public from the CIA director, George Tenet, but today he testified openly before the Senate Armed Services Committee. And much of what we heard was ominous. The al Qaeda terror network may have been weakened, but it remains a major threat to the United States. Tenet also spoke openly of possible links between al Qaeda and Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The assessment from the CIA director was at once reassuring and disturbing. The al Qaeda terrorist network, he said, has been dealt a serious blow since September 11. More than 1,300 suspects linked to Osama bin Laden's network have been arrested in some 70 countries. But Tenet left no doubt about the difficulty tracking an enemy which operates in shadows, and blends in with local populations.

TENET: ... that al Qaeda has not been destroyed. It and other like-minded groups remain willing and able to strike us. Al Qaeda leaders still at large are working to reconstitute organization and resume terrorist operations.

BLITZER: Tenet said intelligence material confiscated in Afghanistan and elsewhere shows that terrorist groups have at least considered attacking U.S. bridges, financial institutions and other targets. And, he went further.

TENET: Documents recovered from al Qaeda facilities in Afghanistan show that bin Laden was pursuing a sophisticated biological weapons research program. We also believe that bin Laden was seeking to acquire or develop a nuclear device. Al Qaeda may be pursuing a radioactive dispersal device, what some call a dirty bomb.

BLITZER: As the Bush administration considers a strike against Iraq, Tenet was pressed on Saddam Hussein's links to al Qaeda.

TENET: Their ties may be limited by divergent ideologies, but the two sides mutual antipathy toward the United States and the Saudi royal family suggests that tactical operation between them is possible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And while U.S. forces have wrapped up one major offensive in Afghanistan, they've found that they are up against a capable and very determined foe, and that bitter fighting certainly lies ahead. CNN's Martin Savidge has more now from Bagram.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Operation Anaconda officially came to an end earlier today when the last of several hundred coalition forces were lifted out of the lower Shah-e- Kot Valley. CNN's photographer, David Albrighton (ph) spent some of the final hours with the troops as they worked in an area that is referred to as Ginger Pass. It's an interesting place because that is almost essentially where Operation Anaconda began 18, almost 19 days ago. It was the scene of some very intense, very brutal and sometimes very bloody fighting.

But it was a different story today, but still pretty difficult and potentially dangerous, as soldiers had to scale very high, very tall cliffs sometimes covered with snow, still finding al Qaeda and Taliban positions. Compounds, caves, bunkers that they were destroying, large supplies of ammunition, and occasionally even Taliban fighters. They had a firefight with at least one of them, and he was killed. There were a number of other bodies that were found on site.

(on camera): General F.L. Hagenback, the man who was in charge if the overall operation says that he's very pleased with the outcome, but he still found himself on the defensive regarding the body count. He's reference, believing that it was accurate to say that hundreds of Taliban an al Qaeda had been killed. And he cited one specific situation where 40 Taliban fighters had been tracked from the air. Here's what he describes happened next.

HAGENBACK: The terrorists there decided to fight, rather than surrender and we obliged them. We destroyed hundreds of al Qaeda's most experienced fighters and trainers. We destroyed this base of terrorist operations and we eliminated their sanctuary.

SAVIDGE: Commanders say that the end of Operation Anaconda in no way should signal that this is the end of the war in Afghanistan for coalition forces. There are still further operations yet to come. They say the soldiers came here for a job, and that job still needs to be done.

Martin Savidge, CNN, Bagram, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And this note: Marty will have much more on the aftermath of Operation Anaconda in his special report LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN, that begins right at the top of the hour.

So is al Qaeda already poised to strike again? Does it have access to weapons of mass destruction? And is there an Iraqi connection?

Joining me here in the CNN WAR ROOM Brian Jenkins, he spent the past three decades studying terrorism and is a leading authority on the subject, a one-time special forces officer, he's an adviser to the Rand Corporation. And retired General Wesley Clark, CNN military analyst and a former supreme allied commander of NATO.

Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to us. Go to my Web page: cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily on- line column.

And Brian Jenkins, let me begin with you. How much of a threat, based on this testimony that we heard today, open testimony from the CIA director, do you think al Qaeda, the entire network, still poses to the United States?

BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM EXPERT: I think it poses a very serious threat to the United States. In terms of leadership, we have put a dent in the leadership, perhaps 20 percent to 30 percent of the top leadership has been killed or captured. Certainly these 1,300 arrests put a dent in the organization but the leadership is still relatively intact. There still is a middle management structure out there, although probably deeper underground than it was before. We know they remain determined. The same kind of thing is happening around the world that we see happening inside Afghanistan.

We focus on Afghanistan because that's where we can see things happen. So we see these fighters determined, they regroup, fight, disperse. That is what is happening outside under pressure of increased surveillance, under pressure of arrests, these operatives disperse, go deep underground, but certainly remain determined to carry out further operations.

BLITZER: Is that your assessment, general, as well?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It is. I think Brian's given a very good portrayal of it. And that's why I'm concerned about, not only the military piece of it, but the legal piece of it. How we line up our rules of evidence and what's admissible and what's sufficient for particular charges, from one country to another. So that we can be as international in pursuing them through the long arm of justice and the law, as they are international in trying to target us.

BLITZER: I know you're very concerned about that justice element, but there are a lot of people who just want to kill as many on the battlefield as possible.

CLARK: Well, I think we have to really have both strategies. We've got to go after the nest of the terrorists, their base in Afghanistan, we've disrupted that. But we still have these cells in western Europe and in the United States and countries that are our allies. And we can't finish that problem with bombs and bullets. We have to use police work and we have to use a legal system on that.

BLITZER: One of the most alarming things of the testimony from George Tenet today was his reference to this crude nuclear device, the so-called dirty bomb, which could be in a suitcase. How serious of a problem do you believe that is?

JENKINS: It is a concern. We're not talking about a nuclear explosive device here, we're talking about a radiological dispersal device. You don't need plutonium or highly enriched uranium, you don't need a sophisticated design. Basically what we're talking about is simply a quantity of high explosives that is connected with a quantity of radio active material. Now it could be radioactive material stolen from a hospital, it could be from waste storage somewhere. Some of this stuff is dangerous even to handle because of the level of radioactivity. But the so-called dirty bomb is simply to explode and disperse this radioactive material.

The real threat there is not so much from casualties. The casualties will be caused by the conventional explosives. The problem really becomes one of cleanup, that is you have an area that is then contaminated with radioactive material.

BLITZER: So how -- maybe general, you want to handle this one. How do you deal with that kind of threat, a suitcase full of that kind of dirty radiological material gets into, God forbid, New York City and they let it loose. What do you do?

CLARK: Well, you set up controls, really, at the outset. You're working from where the material came from, especially the sort of loose nuclear material from the former Soviet Union and those states. And you try to track it. You set up barriers in your ports of entry, so you are checking for radiation.

BLITZER: Can you detect that?

CLARK: You can detect some. It depends how well it's shielded, how large the quantity is, how sophisticated their arrangements are for hiding it. And you run, as we've heard some periodic inspection, practice tests throughout cities. And we get our nuclear emergency response teams out there working in advance to head off problems. But ultimately, if you have a problem, then you're into the cleanup. Evacuating, keeping people out and working with your environmental measures to clean up the dust or whatever toxic remains are there.

BLITZER: In terms of detection, Brian, does U.S. law enforcement, homeland security, if you will, the U.S. intelligence community, have the detection equipment prepared to stop this kind of dirty bomb?

JENKINS: There is a very sophisticated nuclear emergency search team set up in this country to search for either improvised explosive devices or potentially radiological dispersive device. So that exists.

But we can say that we have this detection equipment deployed yet throughout the country. As I say, when we know that something is in a certain place or suspect, we have the capability of searching. Do we have monitors in sufficient numbers at airports, seaports? Can we inspect every single container coming in, every semi-truck that crosses the border? No, we don't have that yet.

BLITZER: And when the director of the CIA testified, General, he made the point that the U.S. is concerned in large part because of the evidence, the documents, the testimony that they've discovered since September 11 from captured al Qaeda fighters, homes, their warehouses, their offices, and a lot of it is very, very ominous, that they were at least attempting to get this kind of weapon of mass destruction.

CLARK: Well, there's no question about it. They are attempting to do this and they've been attempting for some time. It's not quite as easy as it looks. You really do have to work to get this material. There are lots of controls by lots of governments. But, you know, we can do more. Someone was telling me the other day, they said, look, we're having trouble with these containers at the ports, but how come the government can't do this, but FedEx can track hundreds of thousands by the hour of packages flowing through? Surely we can get the technology to track containers from where they're loaded and where they're sealed and so forth all the way through. I'm sure we can.

BLITZER: I know, Brian, you've spent a lot of time recently studying the new threats that may be out there, the new terror threats that you're mostly concerned about. What are they?

JENKINS: Well, obviously, the greatest concern is about any possible news of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. Even if the initial consequences of the event, the explosion or the use of a biological substance is a relatively small scale event, we do have concerns about it provoking national panic. We also see, and in the case of the anthrax letters, the enormous disruption that was caused by simply a very small quantity of anthrax in a handful of letters. So we have concerns about that.

But looking ahead to the future, the biggest concern at the top of the list is another 9/11. By that, I don't mean exactly the same scenario, but some catastrophic event of the same scale. Below that, we're concerned about an organization, al Qaeda will adapt to the new, more difficult circumstances, where there's greater surveillance, greater international cooperation and become an even more dispersed organization that we will see more local initiative in the attacks with perhaps less central support, perhaps operating at a lower level. But a lower level doesn't mean necessarily less lethal. I mean, it was demonstrated in 1995 by Timothy McVeigh that almost any damn fool can make a large bomb and kill a lot of people. We have seen various attempts to carry out suicide bombings in various parts of the world, even a plan to do so in New York subway that was fortunately foiled in 1997. So, our second level of concern is a continuing sporadic terrorist campaign against American targets worldwide.

BLITZER: And complicating this, General, is the fact that these people are so committed, they're willing to die in the process. And preparing for that contingency certainly makes it so much more difficult.

CLARK: Well, that's exactly right. You cannot rely on the perpetrator's desire for self-survival in this case. We've got to assume that he's going to go through with it at the loss of his own life. And that does make it harder. We've seen that in the bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. We've seen it in many other terrorist instances. So we know what we're up against. It's a tough problem.

BLITZER: OK. Gentlemen, stand by. We have a lot more to talk about. Just ahead, I want to get to some of your e-mail. Our guests will answer your questions including this one: Will al Qaeda still be a threat without its leader? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our CNN WAR ROOM. Joining us once again, Brian Jenkins and General Wesley Clark.

We have an e-mail from Mark in Los Angeles. Brian, let me ask you to answer this question. He asks: "Does al Qaeda have redundancy built into their leadership structure? Can they survive the possible loss of bin Laden and other senior leaders?"

JENKINS: Well, there are a number of senior leaders, and certainly one could move into the spot of bin Laden. Bin Laden is important. He's provided a sense of vision. But his continued survival is not prerequisite to al Qaeda being a continuing terrorist threat. Mohamed Atta, who planned the 9/11 attack, even without an Osama bin Laden, still is a very lethal threat.

BLITZER: So they, basically, they delegate a lot of authority to lower officials and they just give them an order, go ahead. Do they often wait, though, for a trigger to unleash the operation?

JENKINS: Possibly so, but it's not necessarily that the order comes down. This is not the Prussian general staff that issues orders down to operational units. There's a great deal of local initiative. I mean, we see that local cells prepared operations, submitted videotapes and plans for approval by the -- the center of al Qaeda, in which case, they could draw upon additional resources, recruits and other forms of support. But in some cases, the initiative comes from below. It's very much a franchise operation.

BLITZER: General, we have a...

CLARK: But they do synchronize. There is some synchronization here. We saw the attack on Massoud a couple of days before the World Trade Center. We know some, at least we think some people took a lot of money out...

BLITZER: The former Northern Alliance leader.

CLARK: ... and we think some people made money on the attack on the World Trade Center through short selling and things like this against the airlines.

BLITZER: All right. Another question. This is from Lynn in Westchester, Pennsylvania. "How do U.S. service men and women tell the difference the Afghan fighters that are working with them and those that are with the Taliban?"

A lot of them look the same. They dress alike.

CLARK: Well, we put a lot of them in our own uniforms, to give them better equipment for that climate. But when we go out, we normally have people with us who are Afghans, who do point out who's on their side and who's on the other team.

And then, third, we're looking at locations and activities and we're watching people. We've got special forces people out in many different places talking to locals, working, watching. And we're looking at locations and activities. And finally, as we heard in the attack on the convoy of the al Qaeda troops fleeing, we gave that convoy a chance to stop. Three vehicles didn't stop. They returned fire and that's when we engaged.

BLITZER: All right. This one is for you, Brian. Rebecca from New York City, she asks this question: "Do you think there will be another terrorist attack in New York City?" I think her question was sparked by the end of the so-called combat air patrols, those fighter aircraft that have been patrolling the skies over New York since September 11, continuing over Washington, but not over New York.

JENKINS: Well, Rebecca, I think it's a virtual certainty there will be another serious terrorist attack somewhere. To be able to predict exactly where puts us into the realm of prophecy rather than analysis.

BLITZER: I know you know a lot about aviation security. Is that wise to stop that kind of -- the so-called combat air patrols that routinely fly? I know it's a big drain on the Air Force, but I guess they were doing it for some reason.

JENKINS: Well, there were a lot of things that we did, measures that were imposed immediately after September 11 in an environment of great uncertainty. As we go forward, as we begin to re-examine this, what we're going to see really are new ways of addressing security, redeployments of security, more sensible things. It doesn't mean that we are relaxing the security. It just means that we're getting smarter about how we go about doing it. So there are going to be changes in our security structure. That doesn't mean that we're relaxing nor should we.

BLITZER: OK. This is a question for you, General, from Scott in Hagerstown, Maryland: "Can we get some detail on what our troops are doing about the caves in Afghanistan? Are they being sealed off? If so, how? Surely, we would not leave them open to be reoccupied at some point in the future."

CLARK: Well, we haven't gotten a full recap of all the work that's been done on the caves. But, by and large, it appears that we are searching them and the ones that need to be destroyed, the big ones and so forth, it looks like we're going after.

We've seen the shots on the news. We've heard the reports. They are taking out -- some of these caves were no more than holes in the wall and they probably won't be destroyed. But, by and large, we are trying to eliminate their ability to use this area as a base camp.

BLITZER: Bottom line recommendation from you, Brian Jenkins, because no one knows more about terrorism than you do. What advice do you have for Americans who want to go about their day to day activities right now, especially those who want to travel overseas and enjoy life, if you will?

JENKINS: I mean, I certainly wouldn't significantly alter personal plans. There are parts of the world -- it may not be the best year to go backpacking in Afghanistan. Some other parts of the world may be dangerous. But we have to keep in mind here that even the high probability of another terrorist attack does not translate into significant danger for every single citizen. It's a matter of not being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But there's 280 million Americans. There are 200 countries in the world. Certainly, one can go about our normal lives.

BLITZER: Brian Jenkins, thank you very much. General Clark, as usual, appreciate it very much.

And remember, I'd also like to hear from you. Please go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. Click on the designation for comments. I'll read them, my producers will read them and we will take note of what you are thinking.

Coming up, tragedy at a hockey rink. That shocking story and more ahead in our "News Alert." Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

A possible merger of two federal agencies tops our "News Alert." President Bush's advisers recommend that he combine the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the U.S. Customs Service to tighten border security. Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge backs the idea, which was rejected in the past, but has more support since the September 11 terror attacks.

In the Middle East, the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat might, might, get Israeli clearance to travel to an Arab League summit in Beirut next week. The Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, says he is willing to lift travel restrictions for Arafat if the Palestinian leader implements a U.S.-backed ceasefire proposal.

And in Columbus, Ohio, a very sad story. A 13-year-old girl has died two days after being struck in the head with a puck while watching an NHL game. Brittanie Cecil had been able to walk to an exit after being hit, but died last night in a hospital. It's believed to be the first time a fan was killed by a puck at a National Hockey League game.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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