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Most Damaging Witness Against Knoller May Have Been Knoller Herself

Aired March 22, 2002 - 10:03   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: The precedent setting nature of this case is not lost on dog owners, but an unscientific sampling may not be the reaction you'd expect.

Here is reporter Mark Matthews of CNN affiliate KGTV.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luke, you are going to be on TV.

MARK MATTHEWS, KGTV REPORTER: Bo Higby owns a mastiff, similar to the breed of dog that killed in San Francisco. But Higby has no problem holding the dog owners criminally responsible.

BO HIGBY, DOG OWNER: If I trained him to be an attack dog and he attacked somebody, I should totally be held responsible for it.

SANDY HILL, DOG OWNER: I do think it's a good thing. I do think that they knew that their dogs were violent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the owner should be responsible for their dog.

MATTHEWS (on camera): Second degree murder?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They got to be responsible for their dogs.

MATTHEWS (voice-over): Some here at the park were surprised by the second-degree murder conviction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems a little bit harsh to me.

MATTHEWS: But a man who lived in the same San Francisco neighborhood at the time of the attack calls the jury's decision just.

LEONARD KOOPERMAN, DOG OWNER: A colleague of mine who lived in that apartment building told me that the two of them intimidated their neighbors with their dogs for a long, long time.

MATTHEWS: Lee Wells is a dog trainer. She says right after the attack in San Francisco, she noticed more people wanting that same breed. LEE WELLS, DOG TRAINER: In some of the dog magazines, shortly after the incident, we started seeing ads for these mastiffs, these canario mastiff, many of them.

MATTHEWS: Wells says the overwhelming majority of dogs are born with gentle temperaments, it's the dog owners that create vicious dogs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every dog bites if he is put in a position where he has no choice, but a mastiff is not necessarily a vicious dog. Dogs have to be taught to be vicious and attack someone the way these dogs attacked this woman.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: That report came to us from Mark Matthews of CNN affiliate KGTV. So let's get some legal perspective on this case.

Joining us for that is Pamela Hayes. She is a former prosecutor who now works the other side of the courtroom as a criminal defense attorney.

Hi, Pamela. Thanks for joining us this morning.

PAMELA HAYES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Good to be here.

LIN: I just want to get very quickly at first your reaction to yesterday's verdict. Were you surprised?

HAYES: I was surprised with the murder two count. Generally speaking, when we think of murder, we think of an intentional act where a person may have sicked a dog on someone. But in this instance, I think the theory was more of a depraved indifference, meaning that she was so grossly negligent, that she knew the propensity of her dog to be violent, that it raised it to a level that she would be guilty of this woman's death.

And I thought for a while it was somewhat over the top. But, you know, as we learned more fact about the case, that she didn't have the dog on the leash, that there were 30 people who, you know, had had these incidents with the dogs, you really understand how the prosecution put the case together, and they were able to get this murder conviction. You know, when we think of an intentional act, I think the people are thinking that, you know, she actually made this situation happen. And with the cases in this instance, she did nothing to prevent it. And her conduct was just so grossly reprehensible that they said, we are going to hold you liable in the highest form for this death.

LIN: You know, it's always so interesting, after you watch a trial unfold to actually hear from the jury as to how they made their decision. And the fact of the matter is, these jurors came out and said, you know what, these defendants weren't credible. We just didn't believe them. Maybe Marjorie Knoller didn't do herself any favors by taking the stand. HAYES: I think she had to take the stand. There is no plausible explanation for her not taking the stand. The problem that she ran into was her presentation, the way she came across. I don't know if they worked with jury experts, which would have prepared her on how to testify, what she needed to convey to these people.

I don't think the behavior of her lawyer helped her in any instance, because she was so emotionally rough with this trial that, you know, I think they had problems really relating to the jury and relating the facts that they needed to get across. And that was unfortunate.

But the most unfortunate thing about this case was I'm just really sad that it wasn't televised, so that we could have all watched each and every aspect so we wouldn't have to be guessing and basing opinions on what somebody else told us. When you are actually able to have a camera in the courtroom and you can see this, it's really much more different, because I had no idea one of those dogs wasn't on a leash, and it really, really changed my perspective, and that I found out last night.

LIN: Yes, Pamela Hayes, we're finding out a lot, including probably in the days and the months to come, what sorts of dogs we are going to be allowed to own and whether these leash laws are going to change. But to that, on other day, Pamela Hayes, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

HAYES: Thanks for asking.

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