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CNN Talkback Live

Arafat Offers Willingness to Engage in Cease-fire

Aired March 28, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. The situation in the Mideast is changing as we speak. Yasser Arafat has just signalled his willingness to engage in an unconditional cease-fire, according to the Tenet plan. CNN correspondent Rula Amin has been covering the summit. She joins us from Beirut. Also with us, CNN state department correspondent Andrea Koppel. And here in Atlanta, CNN International anchor Jonathan Mann.

Andrea Koppel, I begin with you. What can you tell us about the Tenet Plan?

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: In a nutshell, Arthel, it is a cease-fire that both sides would agree to. They would take a series of steps had would happen simultaneously that would ultimately lead to the Mitchell Plan, which is getting back to the peace table and that is really where the hard negotiating would begin.

And getting into the first step, the Tenet Plan, a cease-fire, has taken about a year and they still haven't agreed to the cease- fire. We just heard Yasser Arafat say that he would agree to an unconditional cease-fire. It remains to be seen whether or not Israel will view this, the final government reaction, as a positive move.

NEVILLE: That's right, because they want to make changes. One side wants to keep it as is, that's Arafat and his people. And the Israelis, they want to make changes to the plan.

KOPPEL: Right. It has been a moving target. If the two sides had just agreed to the cease-fire 10 months ago, when George Tenet, the CIA director, first put it forward, it would have been a completely different matter. But we have seen hundreds of people die in the interim.

Yesterday, what they are now calling the "Passover Massacre" happened, 20 Israelis killed. And the day after, you have the Palestinian leader saying OK, let's have a cease-fire. The mood in Israel is not one at the moment that is conducive to taking Arafat at his word. I can tell you right now that state department officials are trying to take apart exactly what Yasser Arafat said, trying to figure out, coordinate with the White House just how the Bush administration wants to respond.

But certainly, Arthel, they have been putting in the last two weeks a tremendous amount of energy into trying to end the violence -- I am talking about the U.S. -- and to trying to bring the two sides together. So they have to see this at least as a step in the right direction.

NEVILLE: And perhaps they are feeling more hopeful at this point.

KOPPEL: I just got off of the phone with one state department official who did express some hope. And all of this is very preliminary, because they need to listen to the entire statement. But what he said is the idea that Yasser Arafat is offering to engage in an unconditional cease-fire is something. Whether or not that means that that's going to be what it takes to get the Israelis to agree to a cease-fire remains to be seen.

JONATHAN MANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Arthel, if I can jump in here briefly.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

MANN: The timing is intriguing. They've been working on the Tenet Plan for a year. As Yasser Arafat was making this ambiguous commitment to work towards a cease-fire, as I was coming down here, in fact, there was news reaching us that gunmen had staged an attack on the Jewish settlement in the West Bank city of Nablus. At least three people are dead according to the last word I have. And so, this question of working towards a cease-fire, whatever the words mean, at the same time that they are still resonating through Washington and through the Middle East, they are hearing gunfire in Nablus. And they're listening closely to that, more closely than they are to Yasser Arafat.

NEVILLE: And that's right, the Israeli government says, listen, put your -- actions speak louder than words and that is what they are going to base their decisions on.

MANN: Absolutely. They said that just a moment ago. It does not matter what Yasser Arafat says. He must at least say the right things, what matters is what he does. He did not issue a order for a cease-fire, He did not demand a cease-fire. He did not condemn the attack that was underway even as he was speaking. He said he would be willing to work towards a cease-fire. That does not cut it for the Israelis.

NEVILLE: And key question, can he control the Hamas?

MANN: That is the big question. Can he control Hamas? Can he control Islamic Jihad? Can he control his own militias, Tanzim (ph) and the Al Aqsa Brigades. The Israelis say he can control them and he let's them out. Some of his supporters say no one could control the kind of anger that exists in the territories. No one could control all of the young men who have no options, no future, and nothing but frustration that they with want to vent. His control is really probably the biggest issue in all of this.

NEVILLE: In fact, the Israeli government spokesman just said that Arafat knew this suicide bomber, this latest one. They identified him. He had the opportunity to arrest him and did not.

MANN: There are a lot of strange stories that you never get to the bottom of. Suicide bombers, for example, who might be taken into custody by the Palestinian Authority. The Israeli forces stage a raid and bomb the jails or bomb communities with jails in them, and these people get away. How hard did the Palestinians try to re-catch them? That is not clear. But those people already under arrest, sometimes at the request of the Israelis, go on and commit more attacks. The Israelis blame the Palestinians for not holding onto them. The Palestinians say how are we supposed to keep extremists in jail when you bomb our communities and bomb the jails that they are in?

NEVILLE: Absolutely. I want to bring Rula Amin into this conversation at this point. And, Rula, is there any reaction from the region at this moment?

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, regarding the cease-fire, the news has just come out. We have not heard any immediate reaction. But we did hear from the Arab leaders in the past two days talking about stopping the violence, the need to stop the violence.

And one thing they all emphasize is that a cease-fire is a two- way track. They say you cannot really only ask the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat to stop Palestinians from carrying attacks against Israel, while you allow Israel to continue with its measures against the Palestinians. They use very strong words in describing Mr. Sharon's policies. They say they are killing Palestinians.

Throughout the summit and from the leaders themselves, we heard a lot of times the Arab leaders describing Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as terrorism. And in that way, they always, when you ask them about the cease-fire and the efforts to bring the violence to a halt, they always say it is a two-way track, and they need to hear from Israel as well. Israel has a role to play, and they need to see Israeli measures stop. They say, at the same time, they pressure Yasser Arafat to do what he has to do in order to stop the violence.

NEVILLE: And, in fact, Prince Abdullah said that peace and continuing occupation of those -- the West Bank and Gaza, those two are incompatible. It will not work.

AMIN: That's exactly the message that came out from this summit. The leaders here said that they were sending the Israelis a message of peace, telling the Israelis that there is a chance to have peaceful, normal relations between Israel and the Arab states. But they said it has to be clear. There is no way to achieve peace along with occupation. This was the main message.

However, you know, in regarding attacks, the suicide attacks against Israeli civilians, this is something the leaders have condemned in a way, saying they want to spare civilian lives. They condemn any such attacks. But every time you ask them about this issue, there is always ands and buts. Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, today spoke to Christiane Amanpour. When she asked him about yesterday's attack in Netanya, he said no one can condone such an attack. Of course they condemn it, but, he said, you should ask why do these people do that, that there are people killed on the other side as well. And he actually accused Israel and blamed Israel and Israeli measures and actions for this kind of escalation.

NEVILLE: Rula, if you can stand by for us, we're going to take a break at the moment. But when we come back, we're going to discuss this a little bit more. And just before the Arab League Summit adjourned, members had one thing to say, one last thing: don't invade Iraq. What do you think is behind that declaration -- I can say that -- and we will take about that after the break. Back in a moment.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back everybody. We are talking with Rula Amin, Andrea Koppel and Jonathan Mann about the growing crisis in the Mideast. The Arab League Summit is now over, and the last thing league members declared before leaving was don't attack Iraq. I want to read right now this exact statement.

It says: "We reject the threat of attacking Arab countries, especially Iraq. We reaffirm our complete rejection of any attack on Iraq. And we reaffirm our rejection of any security threat on any Arab country. And we consider it a security threat to Arab states as a whole."

So, Jon Mann, I want to bring you in now and ask you does this mean that the Arab League is fully behind Iraq?

MANN: No. Saddam Hussein is not a popular man in many parts of the world. He's not a popular man in the Arab world. But the situation is this: Arabs were colonized, dominated by the West for centuries. They do not want to see Western armies returning there for any reason. It is a matter of Arab pride.

It is also a matter of what happens if the United States attacks Iraq and Iraq dissolves. Remember the war in the Balkans? Remember what happened to Yugoslavia and Bosnia and Croatia? That could happen in Iraq. The country could come apart. There could be enormous wars set off by U.S. intervention.

However evil Saddam Hussein may seem, even to many of his neighbors, Iraq is a stable country. Nothing is happening there. The United States is keeping tabs on everything on that country. Attack Iraq, you might set off a Kurdish liberation effort. You might set off wars. You might set off all kinds of trouble. So, it is a lesser of two evils. Iraq the way it stands now seems less dangerous than the Iraq that could follow whatever the United States does after it intervenes there.

NEVILLE: Andrea Koppel, then -- go ahead, Andrea.

KOPPEL: I was just going to say, if I could add on to what Jonathan was just saying there, there is another part to that statement. And that is the Arab League wants to send a message to the United States that it better be serious about solving the Israeli- Palestinian crisis.

In the last two weeks, we have seen the Bush administration make a 180 and suddenly send Anthony Zinni back. Vice President Cheney goes to the region. The president is on the phone. There is much more active engagement now. But they, the Arabs, believe, OK, maybe that is because the United States wants to kind of pacify us for the time being, show that it cares about the Palestinians only because it wants Arab support for military action against Iraq down the line.

So the Arabs are saying to the United States, guys, you better be serious about the Palestinian situation. You better be serious about resolving this because this matters to us.

NEVILLE: So everybody is watching everybody. The Israeli government is saying, we're going to watch Arafat and his people, actions speak louder than words, and the same goes for everybody watching the U.S.

So, Andrea, I'm just curious as to how much consideration do you think the Bush administration will put into its forward steps now, considering that everybody is watching and whatever steps that are made are very, very crucial?

KOPPEL: I think they are paying a lot of attention to those statements, Arthel, at least for the short-term, I have to say, because of Iraq. Remember, this is an administration that came in a little bit over a year ago not wanting to repeat what it saw as the mistake of the Clinton administration, which devoted an amazing amount of energy and time to trying to get a peace deal and failed. And so...

KOPPEL: Andrea, let me interrupt you, if I may, for a second, because Rula is standing by now. She has got an interview she'd like to bring us now. Go ahead, Rula?

AMIN: Hi. We have with us here, Nabil Shaath, the Palestinian cabinet minister. He was with the Palestinian delegation here at the summit. Mr. Shaath, first, Mr. Arafat has just announced he would accept and work toward an unconditional cease-fire based on the Tenet Plan. But the Israelis want to make changes to the Tenet Plan. What use is this declaration?

NABIL SHAATH, PALESTINIAN CABINET MINISTER: I think it is very important that he makes it clear where he stands. We supported and succeeded in making an Arab plan for (UNINTELLIGIBLE) peace, based on this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) plan. We have worked with Mr. Zinni day and night, trying to implement exactly what Mr. Tenet has ordained back in June and what has really been very difficult to get the Israelis to accept. At the moment, when the Israelis are preparing hundreds of tanks to invade our country, and to really devastate it and kill our people, President Arafat needs to be very clear. He is for a peace, and for cease-fire, immediately based on the Tenet Plan.

AMIN: But, Mr. Shaath, just as Mr. Arafat was declaring this peace plan, his acceptance of the cease-fire, there was an attack on the Jewish settlement in Nablus. Yesterday, there was another attack; 20 Israelis were dead. People say they want to see action, they don't want to hear words.

SHAATH: That is precisely what the Tenet Plan would allow: action. Today, President Arafat cannot make action. His policemen cannot move more than a hundred yards in each way. His police stations are all destroyed. His capability of really making anything depends very much on ending the siege, ending the zero mobility allowed to his policemen, and allowing him to rebuild ability as well as create political hope to persuade the people to go along.

AMIN: But how can they trust him? They have not seen -- they say they have not really seen any serious efforts so far. Even if he has put any effort, it has not bear any fruit.

SHAATH: There are no efforts possible. When there is a siege that makes it impossible for a policeman to move away from a station that has been destroyed, there is no possibility when the tanks are totally surrounding every part of a city. The only way President Arafat can be effective is when a plan like Tenet Plan allows his police force to remobilize, allows him to persuade -- all he is doing today is persuasion.

AMIN: Can he really control all these attacks? Can he stop Hamas from carrying out these suicide bombings?

SHAATH: Now he cannot. With the Tenet Plan and a peace plan, he can. Now, he cannot.

AMIN: Why is it that with the Tenet Plan, he can?

SHAATH: Because the Tenet Plan will mean end of the siege. It will mean getting the Israeli tanks out. It will mean allowing him to rebuild his police force. It means allowing him to rebuild hope among his people, allow him to make his persuasion stick and become understandable from his people's point of view.

AMIN: He is the president of the Palestinian Authority. He needs more than persuasion. I mean, you cannot rule if...

SHAATH: He needs more than persuasion, but he is a prisoner of his office. His police officers are in the streets without equipment, prisoners of the Israeli siege. The Israelis are tying our hands behind our backs and tying our eyes so as not to see and asking us to pursue their protection.

AMIN: But let me ask you, the Tenet Plan, Israelis say, this was agreed upon last June. Now it has been a while. They need to make some changes in order to make it work. Things have changed.

SHAATH: That's very much, but what has changed is much more on our side. Since June, the Israelis destroyed our police force, utterly and completely and totally. Their police force is still intact. Their army is still intact. Their F-16s are still intact. Their money still flows. They stopped any money (ph) from reaching our coffers to support our ability to do so. It is exactly the situation of an occupation with much greater power and force. And those with power are asking those whose hands are tied behind their back to do something to protect them. This is absolutely impossible.

AMIN: What is the way out?

SHAATH: The way out is for the American representative, General Zinni, to put his foot down and to say, Tenet is Tenet. Get out of the Palestinian territory. Allow the Palestinians to remobilize. Give the Palestinians the political hope they have been waiting for, and bring in American and other foreign observers on the ground to monitor, and let that process go on forward with an Arab peace plan that offers the Israelis, for the first time, full peace with the whole Arab world, full end of conflict, full normal relations and security.

AMIN: Mr. Shaath, what happens if Israel says this is not enough. They want to see action before they stop any more measures, and they have to take matters in their own hands? What happens if they decide to go in tonight, to tomorrow, to go into the Palestinian territories and take control?

SHAATH: That happened before. This is not the first time they do it, they devastate, they go in, they kill, they maim, with their overwhelming force. The next morning, three suicidal bombers go on and blow up and kill more people. The end result: more Palestinians killed and more Israeli killed and nothing happened except escalating the wounds and escalating the rage and the anger. This is no way. Mr. Sharon does not promise any panaceas. There is no war that can solve the problem. The problem is peace through the Americans and this Arab proposal.

AMIN: Mr. Shaath, thank you very much. This was Mr. Nabil Shaath, Palestinian cabinet minister participating here in the summit. Back to you.

NEVILLE: Thanks, Rula.

And we are going to take a break right now. But when we come bac, we're going to get Jonathan Mann's and Andrea Koppel's reactions to that interview. TALKBACK LIVE continues after this.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.

We are discussing the unfolding violence in the Middle East.

Just about 30 minutes ago, Yasser Arafat said that he is willing to invoke a cease-fire.

And Andrea Koppel, before we went to break, we just were listening to the interview that Rula Amin conducted. And I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

KOPPEL: Well, according to the Bush administration, they just don't buy the fact that Yasser Arafat doesn't have control enough over his own people to stop these terrorist attacks.

At the very least, they believe he should have control over them. And if not, he should speak out publicly. He should get on television, as they have said as recently as this week, and speak in Arabic as well as in English and tell his people to stop conducting these acts of terror. He should also try to arrest these people and put them in jail.

The problem, Arthel, is that Yasser Arafat was not terribly popular with his people, let's say, about a year ago. His popularity has gone sky high because he is seen as a victim by the Palestinian people. So he is sort of stuck right now as to whether or not he wants to remain a powerful player within the Palestinian world or whether he wants to deal with the Israelis and the Americans.

But, having said that, on the other side, Ariel Sharon is also in a tight spot politically. He is under tremendous pressure from the conservatives, from the hawks within his government, within the Parliament, who are telling him: "We cannot have Israelis dying at Passover meals. We need to live in security."

That is how he was elected a year ago. And so he is being pressured to respond, which is why now you are hearing, on the Israeli side, that they want to make some adjustments to that cease-fire, the Tenet plan.

NEVILLE: So, in the meantime, there is a lot of political posturing going on. And people are still dying. And it gets down to: Who is going to make the first move?

KOPPEL: Exactly.

MANN: It also comes down to: What do you listen to?

People talk about the Tenet plan. People talk about the need for negotiation. And they are speaking the truth, no doubt. But there are 20 dead people in Netanya. There is an attack in Nablus. We're human beings. They are human beings. What would grab your attention? What would make you passionate?

The talk of peace is very important, but the war, the fighting continues. People are very angry. They are very afraid. They are terrified on both sides. They are afraid of each other.

NEVILLE: Absolutely. And who can trust whom?

MANN: And that is a more powerful force, perhaps, than Tenet or Mitchell or the names of Americans who come and go. The violence stays.

NEVILLE: That's right.

Let me get a caller in on this discussion right now.

Robert from California, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi, Arthel. You are looking fine today.

Anyway, I would like to say, there hasn't been that peace in the Middle East for 2000 years. And there is a report from Israel that Bababooey and Howard Stern are...

NEVILLE: Did you hear him, Jon?

MANN: I think that was someone playing a little trick on us, Arthel.

NEVILLE: A little tricky.

OK, you know what? I'm standing here with Mike,

Mike, what are your thoughts, from Florida?

MIKE: My point was, is that, do you really think that Israel would be willing to get into another agreement, seeing as they are, essentially, a country surrounded by its own enemies?

KOPPEL: That is all the more reason to get into an agreement.

And the Israelis have made agreements with the Arab world. They have made peace with the Egyptians. They made peace with the Jordanians. And they had -- they were on the path to making peace with the Palestinians until this intifada began in September of 2000. It is very much in Israel's interest, for the very reason you just raised there, sir, to make peace with their next-door neighbors.

In many instances, the Israelis and Palestinians are literally living next door to one another. So, I would say that it is certainly something that the Israeli government has wanted for many years to do. It is just -- as Jonathan said, what do you do when your people are being killed right and left?

NEVILLE: That's right.

Mark, what are your thoughts?

MARK: Well, we were talking earlier, this has been going on forever. And maybe the problem is not the different peace plans we have, or we've had peace for two weeks or two years or 20 years. Why don't we look at it at the base problem, which is between Muslims, Christians and Jews? Why don't we just make the peace plan, "Do unto others"? It is really simple. It's not that tough. The problem is not the parallel lines. The problem is not -- it is always going to be something until we look at our hearts. That's it.

NEVILLE: Jonathan?

Thank you, sir.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Jonathan, the question now is: Is this too much of a complex situation to have a simplistic resolution? MANN: I hate to sound pessimistic, but some problems don't go away fast.

The countries of Europe fight each others for hundreds of years, until nuclear weapons show that there are some countries that can't afford to fight anymore. Some countries have to give up war as a means of trying to resolve their disputes before their disputes end. And powerful countries with weapons of mass destruction learned that lesson.

These two people's, sadly, there are large groups within them who think that fighting can still resolve the problem: Fighting can either bring peace or fighting can bring victory. And they have not given up on fighting. And it may be a long time before they do.

NEVILLE: Andrea, what do you think will be the ultimate role the U.S. administration, Bush administration can play here?

KOPPEL: Well, certainly, the U.S. is the country that has the most sway with the Israeli government. And the pressure that the U.S. can put on Israel, for instance, as it is doing quietly right now, urging restraint on the part of Israel, not to retaliate against yesterday's terrorist attack, and not to retaliate against today's terrorist attack, it can also encouraging the two sides to come together.

There are so many people now, within both the Israeli side and the Palestinian side, who hate one another, who can't stand the thought of talking to the other side. The U.S. can be the bridge. And Anthony Zinni's role is to be sort of the channel through which the two sides can talk with one another, and to hopefully find that cooler heads will prevail, and to get a cease-fire, really, right now.

Before they can talk about a final solution, they have to get the two sides to stop, especially right now on the Palestinian side, to stop launching terrorist attacks.

NEVILLE: Sayeda (ph), your thoughts are?

SAYEDA: Yes, Ms. Koppel, I understand what you are saying about a cease-fire being a first step. But it seems to me that we continue to put band aids on brain tumors here. How do you come to the table with someone like Sharon, who has dedicated his entire political and military career to taking down Yasser Arafat? I just don't see how we are in negotiations phase at this point.

KOPPEL: I think that the answer to your question is, the U.S. and the Palestinian side have no choice. Ariel Sharon, like it or not, is the prime minister of Israel. And what are you going to do? Are you going to ignore him? Are you going to just say, "We are not going to deal with this government until there is a new government?" You could be talking years.

And, in fact, the way things are leaning right now in Israel, the public is leaning right. They are looking towards the former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who is even more conservative and hawkish in his views, at least what he is saying publicly right now, than is the current prime minister, Ariel Sharon. So I...

MANN: Let me jump in and say a word about this, Andrea, because I do not want to make out that anyone here is a particular fan of Ariel Sharon.

But what this woman said about how he spent his career trying to defeat Yasser Arafat, Yasser Arafat spent a good deal of his career trying to destroy Israel. And there are many Israelis who believe, not entirely without some cause, that he still would hope for the destruction of Israel.

Ariel Sharon is a very controversial figure, who has done very -- I don't know how to describe his career -- but very extraordinary things. He and his supporters would argue in the defense of Israel, a country that has been surrounded by enemies and that really has had to rely on its own strength and vigor to survive as long as it has.

NEVILLE: Jonathan Mann, Andrea Koppel, thank you so much for joining us here this afternoon.

And, by the way, Andrea will host the "War Room" tonight at 7:00. She will be talking to former CIA Director James Woolsey.

And now it's time to take a break. And up next: We are going to talk about this. Does race have anything to do with the way you drive a car? A new study says it does. What do you think they say is the difference between black and white drivers? We'll have the answers right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

Here is a question for you: Do you think black drivers have lead feet? Are they more likely than others to ignore speed limits on the highway? A new study says so. Are you surprised a study like that was even done?

Let's find out who did it and why from CNN correspondent Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What if blacks driving on the New Jersey Turnpike, were stopped not so much because they're black, but because they speed more? That's the finding of a controversial new study, turning the racial profiling debate on its head.

New Jersey NAACP leader William Rutherford calling the study "bogus. "

WILLIAM RUTHERFORD, N.J. NAACP: More whites than African- Americans travel the highways of New Jersey, and it would stand to reason that if all speeders were pulled over, at the end of the day, whites would automatically outnumber African-Americans. If this is done fairly.

FEYERICK: New Jersey state troopers countering, the study proves claims of racial profiling have been exaggerated.

KEN MCCLELLAND, N.J. STATE TROOPERS FRATERNAL ASSN.: We feel vindicated. We've long said that we do not do -- this is not a practice that the New Jersey police conduct. We're not saying that there's not individual troopers out there who, in their zealousness to enforce the laws, have taken things into their own hands.

FEYERICK: The study shows in southern New Jersey, speed limit 65, nearly 3 percent of speeders were black, two times greater than speeders who are white. The study was intended to determine the race and ethnicity of speeders. It was ordered by New Jersey's attorney general under former governor, Christine Todd Whitman. She came under heavy fire several years ago, after the 1998 shooting by two white troopers of three unarmed black men.

RUTHERFORD: This information is just another attempt to further try and justify racial profiling.

FEYERICK: New Jersey's current attorney general says the study showing black drivers speed more than whites does not alter the past or undermine the evidence profiling is real. Still, the Justice Department is backing away from the findings, questioning how the study was done. Federal officials say they're not convinced the results are valid or reliable. Reasons cited: many times, the three investigators examining the photos couldn't all agree on race. Also, high-speed cameras may not have accurately recorded race, because of windshield glare, bad weather and camera positioning.

(on camera): Since racial profiling came to light, New Jersey has made sweeping changes, partly because the Feds forced them to. There's more supervision, better training, video cameras and patrol cars. Even so, findings from a study last summer showed troopers still stopping minority drivers more often than whites.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEVILLE: OK, thanks, Deborah.

And here to talk about this now is Jim Fotis, executive director of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America. His organization represents police officers. Also with us is the Reverend Reginald Jackson, who is executive director of the Black Ministers Council of New Jersey.

Welcome to both of you, gentlemen.

And, Reverend Jackson, I'll begin with you. What does this study say to you? Does it say that black people drive faster or that racial profiling didn't happen?

REV. REGINALD JACKSON, BLACK MINISTERS COUNCIL OF NEW JERSEY: Well, No. 1, it does not negate the fact the New Jersey State Police engaged in the practice of racial profiling.

You had the state admit it. You had New Jersey state troopers themselves say their superiors encouraged, encouraged, and condoned the practice of racial profiling. This study, which has not been certified as reliable, simply says that, during a 48-hour period between the end of March and June, that African-Americans traveling on the southern end of the turnpike were, percentage-wise, going faster than others.

But let's also take another look at this report. It is not a survey of speeding. It is a survey of the speediest of the speeders. This was done with motorists who were going more than 15 miles above the speed limit, which really affirms that everybody is speeding.

NEVILLE: Mr. Fotis, what does this study say to you?

JIM FOTIS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ALLIANCE OF AMERICA: Well, first, I would like to have seen the -- what Mr. Rutherford would have said had the study come out the other way and pointed the finger at troopers, saying they were profiling.

I believe that your other guest went even further than I would go by saying that the study has credibility. From what I have read, I think it is definitely lacking in some areas. And, at some times of day, it showed that whites were speeding more than blacks. At other times, it showed that blacks were speeding more than whites. I think a more conclusive study needs to be done.

But, the fact of the matter is, is that Mr. Rutherford's logic that the population is made up of 12 percent blacks and that more were speeding is illogical, because 75 percent of all the people that were stopped were males. So are we gender profiling now?

NEVILLE: I have to take a break at the moment, but you know what? Some people in our audience have said that the study should not have been done in the first place; in fact, that money should have been spent on repairing potholes in New Jersey. That is according to some of my audience members here. And they have a lot to say about this, including Bob here standing with me.

And we're going to talk more about this subject when TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE.

We are discussing a study that was recently released, commissioned by the New Jersey attorney general's office, to determine whether or not the state troopers were practicing racial profiling when they were stopping motorists on the New Jersey Turnpike.

And, Bob, your comments are?

BOB: Well, I have driven through New Jersey before. And I think it is a total waste of money, because driving through there, they had more potholes than any other state. And they should have spent the money filling the potholes.

(APPLAUSE)

NEVILLE: Thank you very much.

John, you stand up and speak out.

JOHN: Yes. Since I spent a lot of money on this survey, I was just wondering, did they find out any other information, like, do more people who are on cell phones speed, or three or four people in the car, do they speed, or whatever?

NEVILLE: Well, considering they were not looking for that -- but I would be interested in finding out the rest of those results as well.

I think, Doreen, you had a comment. Why don't you stand up and speak out?

DOREEN: Yes, I did.

Just surveying this small audience and looking at the shades of brown of the people of color, I want to know how they did that, because it is impossible to do it by camera. And it is almost like saying all blonds are dumb and all redheads have a fiery temper. It is impossible. I don't understand...

NEVILLE: I was wondering, too, especially if somebody, if they are supposedly speeding, and the car is going by, whipping on by, how do you tell?

DOREEN: And because of the shading of skin, that makes it even more impossible.

NEVILLE: Because, you know what? I'm black. And you know that, right? And I sometimes talk to people who are black and I'm like, "Is this a black person I am talking to?" I don't know sometimes. Come on, we are all mixed up here.

DOREEN: Doing it by shade.

NEVILLE: Yes.

Mr. Fotis, I would like to hear your thoughts at this moment.

FOTIS: I think what your last guest just said is true.

It is very difficult to tell race of any kind when are you in a fast-moving vehicle. And that makes it just as difficult for police officers who are sitting at a radar trap or out on the road at night trying to -- "Will I be stopping this person specifically because they are black, Hispanic, or so on down the line?" They won't be.

All police are not out there to racially profile anyone. But profiling has become part of our lives in light of 9/11. And it is going to be around a long time. And we are going to have to learn that the government is profiling, police officers are profiling. They are looking for specifics on down the line.

And with regard to what one of your other guests said, the study did not look into anything but speeding. It did not go into drunk driving, reckless driving, or anything else.

NEVILLE: Cell phone use or anything like that.

You know what? We are out time. Thank you very much for joining us here. Reverend Jackson, Jim Fotis, thank you so much. Glad you could both join us.

And thanks to all of you for watching.

I'm Arthel Neville. And I will see you tomorrow, 3:00 p.m. Eastern, when some of you will meet some of college basketball's all- time greatest coaches, as the Final Four makes its way on to Atlanta, Hotlanta.

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